The Whiteboard

part of the reason I don't get the adoration of autocomplete is that any time I don't remember the method name I want, I probably want to read its documentation before I use it, and that means searching the docs in another window

Ampt

@BarryTheHatchet I get the doc string as a part of the auto-complete

whatsisname

I think autocomplete is glorious because I can remember most of stuff but not 100% of it

Ampt

it gives me all the documentation you would get from googling, automatically

BarryTheHatchet

@Ampt I mean, once you're using an IDE, you're trapped with any constraints imposed by that IDE. Their build system. Their way of doing precompiled headers. Their this, their that. Don't even get me started on how badly IDE project files work with version control diffs, omg

whatsisname

and autocomplete bridges that gap for me

BarryTheHatchet

7:05 PM

So if there's no notable benefit in autocomplete over simple Google or using your brain, why not stick with the flexible approach

Ixrec

@BarryTheHatchet THIS

Ampt

@BarryTheHatchet Agreed - Eclipse and Netbeans are awful at this, but IntelliJ is highly configurable that way

BarryTheHatchet

great then

Ampt

also, quit committing your local dev environment cruft into the version control :P

BarryTheHatchet

@Ampt well, I don't

Ampt

7:06 PM

that's the solution to bad version control. that's a local thing, not a team thing

BarryTheHatchet

my makefiles are in version control and I don't actually need anything else because I'm not using an IDE

Ampt

I use intellij, my teammate uses eclipse, neither of us commit out IDE specific files

whatsisname

there is notable benefit in autocomplete, it is considerably faster

Ampt

You just make it sound like you're vehemently anti-IDE

BarryTheHatchet

how so?

just because I don't use one doesn't mean I want to flay anyone who does

whatsisname

7:07 PM

and you don't have to move the mouse or alt tab to another window and wait a moment for google to return something, then make a decision on what link to click, etc

BarryTheHatchet

also, btw:

21 hours ago, by amon

Far more entertaining than a meaningless flame war pro/con conditionals is watching @Barry spectacularly failing to ignite said flame war.

Ixrec

unfortunately our infrastructure team effectively forces us to use their proprietary IDE for Javascript, so I don't have any choice in the matter

BarryTheHatchet

eat it.

Ampt

34 mins ago, by BarryTheHatchet

You'll be completely hosed when it comes to job interviews, y'know

Ixrec

and our C++ is sufficiently special that the typical IDE benefits simply won't apply to it

Ampt

7:07 PM

@BarryTheHatchet this ain't even a flame war sweetie.

BarryTheHatchet

that's not about using IDEs

Ampt

this is us understanding eachother viewpoints

BarryTheHatchet

that's about Thomas allegedly being entirely reliant on auto-complete for producing code

good luck with that when they ask you to sketch out a C++ program on the whiteboard

enderland

of course, whiteboards don't compile

whatsisname

so what if you're reliant on it

Ampt

7:08 PM

well the same could be said when you are asked to do it without the internet?

like you admit you google it - what's the difference?

BarryTheHatchet

yeah if you're a scrub, sure

whatsisname

if you're at the whiteboard and you can't remember the order of arguments for something then just say so

Ixrec

we're probably all reliant on documentation at least

whatsisname

and anyone who has a problem with that is a loser and you don't want to work with them

BarryTheHatchet

@Ampt the implication was that he needed auto-complete on his own code, even

I hadn't really quite figured out what his thing was yet, at that point

admittedly

Ampt

7:09 PM

@BarryTheHatchet I don't think that was the implication

most of us work with fairly large codebases

BarryTheHatchet

still haven't because he's gone

Ampt

I think thomas is moreso

whatsisname

knowledge in the mind vs knowledge in the world

BarryTheHatchet

my codebase has 900,000 LOC

don't talk to me about large codebases :P

Ixrec

I really need to go count what ours is at

BarryTheHatchet

7:09 PM

I dunno, maybe it's just cos I'm savant-like :D

whatsisname

autocomplete lets you keep less in your head, more in the world, and so you can think about more pressing things

Ampt

@BarryTheHatchet Thomas works on government regulated aerospace stuff

I think he probably has you beat

BarryTheHatchet

I know he does

Great good for him

Ampt

you're savant like? lol

BarryTheHatchet

Still doesn't really explain why he can't figure out how to write a play C++ app without autocomplete

it's all moot unless he decides to come back and finish the conversation he started

I do like how Notepad++ has a feature to convert silly space indentation into awesome tab indentation

makes importing code written by idiots into a less arduous affair :)

Ampt

7:12 PM

He just wanted to know how a typical C++ dev has their workspace setup

Ixrec

I suspect the answer is they have it set up by their nearest C++ workspace developer

BarryTheHatchet

and I didn't understand the question

or why you're repeating the conversation blow by blow

enderland

there are advantages and disadvantages to using autocomplete and not

acting like one is superior to the other in an absolute sense is... inane

BarryTheHatchet

oh god

Ampt

Because I think you're being rather rude about the whole thing.

Ixrec

7:13 PM

there are advantages and disadvantages to using COBOL

BarryTheHatchet

so whatever they put on my hair today smells really nice

got a free head massage too :D

Ampt

@Ixrec Advantage: Job security and $$$,$$$

Distadvantage: Wanting to be embraced by a face hugger every day.

Ixrec

thanks, now I'm having Alien: Isolation flashbacks

whatsisname

I should probably learn me some COBOL one of these days

enderland

also one thing I experienced when doing C++ is that configuring a debugging environment is considerably worse than something like Java

whatsisname

7:16 PM

I could make some good cashmoney and it would be only marginaly more awful than what I do now

BarryTheHatchet

@enderland gdb myProgram ... run

so hard

Ampt

Yeah I've found GDB to be better than Java's alternatives myself

enderland

I just assumed Java works well, you mean with all the infrastructure pieces they have there isn't a good debugger? :o

I've not written much java and hope to keep it that way

Ixrec

one of the downsides of having gigabyte-sized executables is that gdb loses most of its practicality

Ampt

@enderland nah, they're ok, GDB was just always really easy to use IMO

whatsisname

7:18 PM

whatever debugger eclipse and intellij are hooked up to for java are fine

BarryTheHatchet

0

A: nm get undefined symbols for whole archive, not separate object files

The archival tool just creates ... well, an archive. It's not a linker. References are resolved by your linker, and this process will find foo.o's reference to bar to be resolved in bar.o. The archiver can't do that, and nm won't do it either - it's just running itself over each object inside the...

fact check please

Ampt

what the hell is he trying to do? Reference bar() from foo and missing() from bar()?

that's not how you include methods from other files

BarryTheHatchet

I think he's trying to add to his workflow "check that every function referenced in but not defined inside this archive is something I know about because I deliberately define it in some other archive"

Ampt

unless I'm missing something shouldn't he just have a bar.h with the function prototype that he then imports into foo?

BarryTheHatchet

well, yeah, ideally

that wouldn't change anything about the question though

Ampt

7:23 PM

well it's not finding bar because he's not doing that though, right?

BarryTheHatchet

I suspect that element is deliberately abstracted away

no, this is about definitions, not declarations

it's a link thing

Ampt

like how does his linker know the extern into bar() is defined in bar.c?

BarryTheHatchet

because it's a linker's job to know

that's what a linker does

the problem he's got is that he's not invoking a linker so he's not getting the informational output from nm that he was hoping for

psr

If you were a linker you would understand

Ampt

ok, what if he had a foobar.c that also had a bar() defined?

BarryTheHatchet

7:24 PM

then that's multiple definitions

and you can't build your program

Ampt

that would stop a build? even though nothing is explicitly linked?

BarryTheHatchet

what

"explicitly linked"?

what's that

Ampt

via headers and function prototypes. Why cant you re-use the same method name inside different c files?

that's not allowed?

BarryTheHatchet

headers have nothing to do with the linker whatsoever

declaring by including a file that contains int foo(); and just writing int foo(); directly are exactly the same thing

Ixrec

having two definitions for the same name (in the same namespace) has always been a fatal error...

BarryTheHatchet

7:26 PM

@Ampt of course not? you can't have two functions with the same name..... how would that work?

Ampt

because they're in different files?

@Ixrec plain old C has namespaces? I thought that was a C++ thing?

BarryTheHatchet

global is a namespace

Ixrec

@Ampt namespace are the C++ solution for this problem

Ampt

we're hitting the limits of my C knowledge here

Ixrec

iirc the C convention is libraryname_actualfunctionname

BarryTheHatchet

7:27 PM

@Ampt yeah you seem to be confusing includes for imports

#include is simple text replace, nothing more

there's no "explicit"/"non-explicit" linking

your compiler needs to be able to see a declaration, and your linker needs to be able to see one definition

that's it

we have a ton of conventions to make things not blow up in practice (e.g. header files), but theoretically there are a gazillion ways to achieve a successful outcome

Ampt

shouldn't GCC be doing the linking? or do you need a flag for that maybe?

BarryTheHatchet

GCC does the linking, yes

GCC includes a compiler (gcc) and a linker (ld). When using the -o flag the linker is automatically run after compilation, but it doesn't have to be

This guy is looking at the output of compiling, only

enderland

man serious perk - free beefsticks and cheesesticks

BarryTheHatchet

He's compiled two objects (call them "modules" if you like), and bundled them into an archive (or "static library") using ar .. which is really just an archiver, hence the name

Now he wants to know why nm thinks that, within the scope of those two "modules", bar is not defined... when it is

Ixrec

probably best not to call them modules, they have nothing in common with real modules

BarryTheHatchet

7:31 PM

The answer, I think, is that nm is just telling him what functions are undefined in each component module

And I think that because he hasn't done any linking yet so how could it know

Also otherwise he wouldn't get that result

@Ixrec Agreed - trying to bridge the language gap a bit. Hence quotes!

They're strictly "objects" but that's ambiguous too, so yikes

Ixrec

I'm trying to figure out why Ampt thinks the one definition rule implies that no linking is going on

or whatever it was he was implying

BarryTheHatchet

I gave up trying to figure out why Ampt thinks anything ;)

I mean, he's a sock ... what do you expect?

Ampt

@Ixrec It was my understanding that you had to explicitly include a function from one file to another, but I see why that's wrong.

Ixrec

"translation unit" is probably the closest thing we do have in current C++

BarryTheHatchet

@Ampt It's just one of those things that's a really, really, really good idea

Ixrec

7:33 PM

@Ampt ah, yeah in C and C++ unfortunately you can only include files, not functions/objects/classes/methods/etc

BarryTheHatchet

But in order to simplify the MCVE, I'm glad the OP decided to keep the file count low here and just give us the function declarations inline

Ampt

@Ixrec yes, and those files contain function prototypes that you want to include

BarryTheHatchet

Dunno why he wrote extern, though.

Ixrec

again, I am of the opinion that the lack of proper modules is modern C++'s biggest weakness

BarryTheHatchet

I think its biggest weakness is the utter mess that is TMP

it's a huge abstraction leak

Ampt

7:34 PM

@BarryTheHatchet usually it's for embedded stuff where the function is defined in the compiler or whatever

BarryTheHatchet

you have to be a brain surgeon to do basic things with C++ templates. it's utterly horrible

Ampt

at least that's how I saw it used

BarryTheHatchet

in second place is the semantic mess that is auto (make up your mind what you want to be, C++!) and std::move (which doesn't move anything)

Ixrec

that situation improved greatly with the recent C++ standards

BarryTheHatchet

@Ampt No, it has no effect whatsoever.

@Ampt extern is useful for "declaring" variables in the way you'd declare functions (i.e. without defining them at the same time)

Ixrec

7:35 PM

and personally I've never needed to do anything more complicated with templates than instantiate "STL" containers

BarryTheHatchet

But for functions it's completely redundant

Ampt

yeah you're right

BarryTheHatchet

@Ixrec I think it's getting worse not better

Ampt

what was the friggin keyword for the compiler included library then...

BarryTheHatchet

C++03 was passable

@Ampt There isn't one

Ixrec

7:36 PM

variadic templates? decltype?

BarryTheHatchet

The C and C++ standard libraries are in "user space" - they exist in the same form your own code does

Ixrec

features like that completely obsolete some of the more common TMP madness

Ampt

@BarryTheHatchet Not in the base C++ standard, no

BarryTheHatchet

I'm talking about standard C and standard C++ of course

Ampt

I was using a proprietary compiler and standard though

BarryTheHatchet

7:37 PM

though I've done a bit of embedded work and haven't seen anything that diverges as much as you're describing, I can imagine it

Ampt

there was a way to say "Put this function for this chip here kthx"

BarryTheHatchet

ok

Ampt

and now I have no clue what ti was

it wasn't a macro, I know that

BarryTheHatchet

are you sure it wasn't just a predefined macro

lol k

Ampt

haha

yeah it eludes me now but it was something goofy

those compilers were even worse though

BarryTheHatchet

7:38 PM

sounds like a thunk

@Ixrec yeah but they do it in such an obnoxious way

it's not expressive at all

upvoted for "try to" — BarryTheHatchet Mar 11 at 12:25

lol wtf

enderland

7:53 PM

wooo free lunch tomorrow and friday

user41796

> It's a trap!

enderland

@GlenH7 nah, it's a celebration day type of thing tomorrow (somehow meaningful to the company, not sure what the significance of teh day is, but hey free food) and every two weeks we get a team lunch

BarryTheHatchet

yep, sounds like a trap to me

hopefully it's not a tarp though

nothing worse than rubbery food

user41796

Um, I feel completely out of it. I just saw the notice that MichaelT has had his account disassociated. :-(

enderland

@BarryTheHatchet our cafeteria has ridiculously good food

I still bring my lunch because I'm trying to lose weight and eating here... not the plan for that hah

@GlenH7 yeah.. :'(

user41796

8:00 PM

Skimming the earlier conversation about it

BarryTheHatchet

yeah MichaelT was recently diagnosed with Disassociative Identity Disorder

> And, remember, every $10 is an entry so the more you donate, the better your chances are to win. So if you want 5 entries, just donate $50, if you want a billion entries, donate 10 billion dollars, etc.

lol

0

Q: How to configure list of containers / apps for Docker to run?

What is Docker's native mechanism for specifying to Docker Engine or Docker Compose the list of applications (and therefore, via compose.yml, the containers) to run on a given host? An illustrative scenario I would like a given host to run all required containers for web applications A and B. L...

docker

for you, @enderland

user41796

So skimming the earlier conversation about Michael, and having briefly read that meta post ... it makes sense to me.

enderland

@BarryTheHatchet hahaha that's our exact use case

user41796

It's the exact same reason why he left SO. Except this time he bailed before he let his professionalism drop.

whatsisname

why did he bail?

enderland

8:08 PM

@GlenH7 I was reminded of a long break I took after writing this meta post after seeing some of the context on that meta post

whatsisname

i missed it

user41796

@whatsisname enderland's own summary is fairly apt for MichaelT as well

whatsisname

gotcha

enderland

it's all speculation basically but I suspect this comment is the tl;dr version:

I agree, but am more concerned that no one prompted the asker for the information needed to make the question better (either for our site or for migration somewhere else).

It is key to lead by example. programmers.stackexchange.com/q/312743 programmers.stackexchange.com/q/312761 programmers.stackexchange.com/q/312721 . I'm tired and done. Its someone else's turn now. Go through the recently closed list, check to see where there is confusion and better guidance for users. Thats what the 10k mod tools are for. — user40980 yesterday

user41796

Realizing that he was focused on building a high quality community, and combine that with a lot of tone deaf responses from CMs ... I'm not surprised.

user41796

8:10 PM

At some point you have to say "I'm doing carrying this load, it's someone else's turn."

BarryTheHatchet

I still don't understand the link between wanting to not spend time on moderation and lobbying any more ... and deleting every single trace of yourself from the entire network

looks like a ragequit to me tbqh

user41796

tbh, there's been a dramatic shift in (lack of) community moderation after the 3VTC experiment wound down.

Rachel

@enderland Hey! My answer is right below yours on that list :)

user41796

I think there was disappointment from many of the regulars, and then several of us also ran into pressing real world issues

BarryTheHatchet

yeah ok but then just don't log in for a while or something

user41796

8:11 PM

@BarryTheHatchet Not a ragequit

user41796

@BarryTheHatchet He had already done that for a bit

enderland

people who ragequit don't just... quit, they rage quit

BarryTheHatchet

then explain to me the link between stepping back from moderation, and entirely removing yourself from the entire network

how does account disassociation aid with the stated goal

user41796

At some point you realize that your actions aren't having the effect you want them to have. It's perfectly logical to say "FTS, I'm done." at that point if it doesn't appear that there's any hope of things changing.

BarryTheHatchet

one thing I could buy is that it will help you not slip back into the patterns of work you're trying to escape

user41796

8:13 PM

@BarryTheHatchet that's exactly why he disassociated his SO account

user41796

so that he couldn't be tempted

BarryTheHatchet

alright

well maybe it's that then

user41796

It is.

BarryTheHatchet

could have said goodbye though!

@GlenH7 how do you know? you didn't even know he'd left until five minutes ago!

enderland

it's no different than a breakup, tbh, you want the same thing - a clean break

user41796

8:13 PM

@BarryTheHatchet Go read the meatball wiki on how people leave a community. He played this one by the book on how to leave properly.

2

BarryTheHatchet

dunno still seems like a massive overreaction to me but there we go

user41796

@BarryTheHatchet How do I know? I've talked to the guy for years in this room.

enderland

^

BarryTheHatchet

@GlenH7 a well-educated guess then but you're stating it as if it's a fact you've heard direct from the horse's mouth

and it's not

to be clear, I don't disbelieve you

user41796

I'll grant that point. But you also have to grant that he's consistent in his behaviours.

BarryTheHatchet

8:15 PM

that's certainly so

enderland

for many of us MichaelT is someone we would consider a close friend

BarryTheHatchet

do you have a way to contact him off-network?

enderland

sometimes, it is easy to predict/understand what and why a close friend would do what they do

BarryTheHatchet

if you do, perhaps now would be a good time

user41796

@BarryTheHatchet pretty certain, yes

BarryTheHatchet

8:16 PM

@enderland I agree

enderland

@BarryTheHatchet why?

BarryTheHatchet

@enderland because you consider him a close friend and he may need your support right now?

more importantly, don't forget to vote on my name

user41796

@BarryTheHatchet I don't think he's upset. I think it was a perfectly rationalized decision on his part.

BarryTheHatchet

haven't got all month y'know

@GlenH7 alright then

user41796

And I'd be willing to bet he's been mulling this over for months

BarryTheHatchet

8:18 PM

I'd have expected him to write a goodbye message to all of you lot were that the case

where "him" = "a person"

not him specifically

you know what I mean

anyway I'm sure he'll be back

enderland

what @GlenH7 is saying, hah

BarryTheHatchet

bbiab in a min from pub on MOBILE CHAT UI BETA

cos I'm leaving for the airport at 4am

so I'm going to the pub now at 8.20pm

what could possibly go wrong....?

user41796

@BarryTheHatchet I'm not so sure about that. Looks like he had all of his SE accounts disassociated.

BarryTheHatchet

@GlenH7 yep he did

but it's trivial to set new ones up

give it six months

I wonder what name I'll be on by then... hmm

enderland

@GlenH7 I think if I ever feel SE is less than beneficial in my life, I will do the same thing

user41796

8:29 PM

The sites are a nice little diversion, but that's all. I haven't seen much to demonstrate that it would have a significant impact on real world events.

enderland

what do you mean? you are better at separating your non-work life from SE than some of us... ;-)

user114359

@BarryTheHatchet no, because he was clearly annoyed for some time and would not want to be perceived as whiny or ragequitting. He likely correctly assumed someone would see one of his prolific posts was no longer attributed and word would spread. And it is not like we have no idea why, like I said, he was clearly annoyed by a few things.

user114359

23 hours ago, by gnat

^^^ MichaelT has left Stack Exchange

user41796

@enderland The benefits of site participation are all intangible.

user114359

that's all he needs. Besides, some of us do know how to reach him outside of SE. I might, but I would give it a week or two first.

user41796

8:34 PM

I'd agree

whatsisname

perhaps he will focus on writing a blog where he controls it and doesn't have to deal with the weeding and janitorial aspects

user41796

And he was planning on getting a road bike. Spring is in the air. And it sounds like he's got an excellent excuse to get out and ride now.

whatsisname

it needs to rain a bit more though

user41796

It's been a dry winter / spring here as well

whatsisname

well the rain would be more to remove the salt from the roads

enderland

8:39 PM

11 mins ago, by enderland

@GlenH7 I think if I ever feel SE is less than beneficial in my life, I will do the same thing

don't tempt me too much ;-) haha

user41796

@enderland Walking away from the keyboard can be a good thing at times

user41796

I think your break from the Workplace benefited you in that regard

enderland

yeah absolutely

user114359

@GlenH7 I have, at times, stepped away from a bit (e.g. last December). But never deleted my account. I doubt I would do that.

user114359

Right now I am spending more time hanging drywall in my basement than I am reviewing questions on this site.

whatsisname

8:43 PM

conversely I have intentionally avoided ever getting too close

enderland

I have also walked away from online communities that I really cared too much about

whatsisname

I rarely participate in the meta discussions and whatnot

user41796

@Snowman Keep in mind that he ended up saying some less than civil things during heated discussions on MSO. And he really wasn't happy about losing his cool like that. So... sometimes it's better to make sure that sort of a mistake can't happen again

whatsisname

ultimately SE is a for-profit enterprise that I am not a shareholder of

user41796

I had asked for proof as I didn't believe that was in his character. I saw some of the comments and had to agree that they were very out-of-character for him

user114359

8:44 PM

@whatsisname sort of like a for-profit wikipedia, with just as much drama

whatsisname

right

my willingness to engage in the drama is very limited because the work/payoff ratio is not good

user114359

at this point in my life I mostly just laugh off the drama in anything I do. I don't have time for it, and I graduated high school 20 years ago. That kind of crap is in the past.

enderland

the second is a bit.. PII heavy (though I guess not too hard to find if you know the github?)

Robert Harvey

Well, it's not like I'm posting his email address or cell phone number.

enderland

@RobertHarvey well a lot of those have real name associated with them

BarryTheHatchet

8:57 PM

hello from mobile chat ui beta

@GlenH7 lol that's so meta... when you quit your job on Workplace :D

Rachel

I was hoping this question would get updated with details... I like algorithm questions

but I'm not about to go learn Othello to answer a question here :p

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