The Whiteboard

shotguns were a point of contention too after I saw someone coming and crouched around the corner to get them... that still gets brought up years later that I'm a "corner hiding shotgun camper"

BarryTheHatchet

@Rachel heh, literally booting 4 up now

leaving for my flight at 4am. think I've decided to just call it an all-nighter

lucky y'all

user114359

@Rachel if it is not cheating, it is fair game. Sounds like someone else is a sore loser to me.

BarryTheHatchet

INFINITY... SLAYERRRR

Rachel

5:16 PM

@Snowman :) I was really good with a battle rifle

its all in good fun though

BarryTheHatchet

I was a DMR guy ... but it's all about the assault rifle nowadays

my specialty is long-distance plasma throws

I'm pretty good in the ghost, too

user15026

I am terrible at FPS games.

BarryTheHatchet

I can't imagine any frame-per-second game being too hard

user114359

I don't do well with FPS on console, better on PC. Other games are the reverse for me.

BarryTheHatchet

the whiteboard is my favourite game

user15026

5:21 PM

In general, I'm not a very good gamer. :P I don't play most AAA titles - most of my gaming rep has come from Nintendo stuff or mobile stuff.

Thomas Owens

Speaking of games. Has anyone played Stardew Valley, I think it's called? It's on Steam. It's like an indie Harvest Moon.

BarryTheHatchet

lol mobile

user114359

@ThomasOwens I have seen a few questions on Arqade about that and was curious. Farmville on steroids?

Thomas Owens

@Snowman Have you never played Harvest Moon? WHAT IS THIS?

user114359

@ThomasOwens nope, but I did look it up. Wasn't that on SNES back in the day?

Aaron Hall

5:23 PM

If I wanted to set some environment variables on the same line as a shell command, is that like a simple && or something to separate?

BarryTheHatchet

Farmville on Asteroids sounds like a game I'd play

Thomas Owens

Yeah. It started on SNES. There was an N64 version, along with PSX and PS2. And various mobile platforms - GameBoy, GBC, GBA, etc.

BarryTheHatchet

Was there a GameGirl?

Rachel

@AshleyNunn that's typically me too Ashley, I just play fps games with friends when that's what their into. I liked Left4Dead though :)

@ThomasOwens Ummm yes I've played an awful lot of stardew valley ;)

imo it's totally worth the money, and better than the harvest moon or rune factory series :)

user15026

@ThomasOwens Yeah, a bunch of Arqade folk are playing it (including me). It's pretty fun. Very much in the spirit of the HM games.

user15026

5:35 PM

@Snowman The SNES one is my favourite :)

Aaron Hall

If you unset a variable in bash, does that export to subprocesses?

BarryTheHatchet

TIAS

Aaron Hall

I'm reading this: wiki.bash-hackers.org/commands/builtin/unset

enderland

@Rachel did you ever play SimFarm?

BarryTheHatchet

Doesn't appear to say either way

so TIAS

Ampt

5:49 PM

@Rachel No battle rifles? What the hell were you supposed to do? Stare at them to death? BRs were the most balanced and widely used weapons in the game

tell them to get better

Aaron Hall

TIAS? Test It And See?

Ampt

I really with that @MichaelT would create an account just to chat with us - I think his departure is affecting me more than I thought it would.

Rachel

@Ampt its fine, we had many pistol and sword fights that were equally fun :)

user15026

@enderland I played so much of that game. I was not a very good farmer.

psr

@Ampt Some players like to unfairly kill you before you can kill them. Like everyone I play a FPS against.

Aaron Hall

5:52 PM

I'm against empirical knowledge.

enderland

@AshleyNunn I loved that game

BarryTheHatchet

@AaronHall Try It and See, yeah

Rachel

@enderland I don't think I have.... I've played many weird variations of the sim games though, like sim safari, sim town, etc.

BarryTheHatchet

@Ampt Don't worry, his socks are still here

Rachel

worth looking up and playing now? (Sim Farm that is)

user15026

5:53 PM

@Rachel If you can find it, sure :)

Aaron Hall

I prefer me some book larnin'.

Rachel

lol I'll keep an eye out for it

Ampt

@psr Most game types you started with a BR - if you lose in a BR vs BR matchup, that's on you

enderland

@Rachel ah, I've wondered when looking at the "new" one was like simfarm or not

Aaron Hall

I was going to export an empty string, but I think I prefer unset -v HTTP_PROXY

if it works

user15026

5:57 PM

@enderland Stardew Valley is more HM than SimFarm

psr

@Ampt Not on me, so much as a hail of bullets in me. I've never played a FPS enough to get at all competent.

enderland

HM? I'm a gaming noob. :P

BarryTheHatchet

Her Majesty?

Rachel

HM = Harvest Moon

enderland

ah

@psr this is my problem, though I've played enough to be ok at them when playing new ones... was always fun to do things like that (halo BRs were a lot of fun back in the day when I actually played games, lol)

BarryTheHatchet

6:14 PM

yay 25

top of the board baby

Thomas Owens

Why does developing in C++ suck so hard?

Tool support is...awful.

whatsisname

c++ isn't all that bad

I wouldn't say the tool support is awful, but that's because I probably have to deal with stuff that really is truly awful

Ampt

because it's C++

Thomas Owens

I don't mind the language. I prefer JVM (Java, Scala, Clojure) development.

The tools for developing and building are solid.

BarryTheHatchet

@ThomasOwens Because C++ sucks so hard

Yet it's still my preferred language

Then I wonder why I'm getting sick of software development... hmm...

Thomas Owens

6:25 PM

So how do you develop in C++? Really.

So I install MinGW on Windows. Oops, all my stuff I'm linking with is binaries on Linux. Now, I'm stuck with a VM or remote session into a Linux server (or VM). And now I have a Windows development environment and a Linux development environment. And now I need to support Solaris...

BarryTheHatchet

Too broad

Ask me something answerable

Thomas Owens

:(

Nothing is too broad for chat.

Rachel

... that's one reason I do .Net development. These companies are usually loyal to microsoft and everything is windows, or microsoft products :)

BarryTheHatchet

#Well c'mon "how do you develop in C++" srsly

Ampt

@BarryTheHatchet what does your development environment look like?

your toolchain, as it were?

I'm actually rather interested in this

BarryTheHatchet

6:27 PM

@Ampt super sexy darling

we have a few

Ampt

tell me your favorite?

Thomas Owens

What IDE do you use when you develop in C and/or C++?

BarryTheHatchet

no IDE

Thomas Owens

o_o

Peter Tòmas Scott

I'm more interested in how long you can obfuscate than in what your dev environment is.

Thomas Owens

6:29 PM

How do you code complete?

How do you make sure you call the right functions?

BarryTheHatchet

I write in Notepad++ on Win7/64, WinSCP over to our dev server or a VM, then throw it at a makefile invoking some form of GCC

@ThomasOwens Well, I have a brain....

@ThomasOwens Testing?

Thomas Owens

@BarryTheHatchet I mean like spelling, argument type and order, return type...

BarryTheHatchet

I don't understand the question

Are you suggesting it is impossible for humans to spell type names without code complete

I just decide what to program, then I program it!

Thomas Owens

If you use Eclipse or IntelliJ or any decent Java IDE, you get code completion and code hints. If I have an object and put ".", I see all kinds of methods and stuff.

BarryTheHatchet

If you forget argument order, that's what documentation's for

maple_shaft

6:31 PM

WTF MichaelT left?!

3

Thomas Owens

o_o That's so arcane.

BarryTheHatchet

Not really...

Total reliance on code completion and intellisense is an extremely scary trend of the young

I can't fathom why anyone would need to rely on it so much

Ampt

@maple_shaft that's been everyones reaction so far, yes.

BarryTheHatchet

You'll be completely hosed when it comes to job interviews, y'know

Thomas Owens

@BarryTheHatchet How so?

BarryTheHatchet

6:32 PM

now I'm not saying I've memorised every library function ever

but documentation is available within 15 seconds max via Google

and all the other functions I used, I wrote

so a quick flip to the relevant header to read the documenting comments is all that's required in the worst case

it's really no big deal

Thomas Owens

But in an IDE, I can control+click to jump to other source files.

BarryTheHatchet

wonderful

I can ctrl+o, press a few buttons on my keyboard, and open whatever files I like

takes about 5 seconds and I'm okay with that

do I see the extra ease of an IDE? sure

Thomas Owens

Hm. Guess it's just a different mindset.

BarryTheHatchet

did a bit of VB.NET this week and it does save a miniscule amount of effort. but it really is miniscule

Thomas Owens

I would like to learn more. Do you have a C++ environment on Windows? If so, can you describe it?

Alternatively, I do have a Macbook Air...

BarryTheHatchet

6:34 PM

I have a MinGW installation somewhere yes

What do you want me to say about it?

It's a compiler. You run it.

I don't know what you want from me :(

not trying to be difficult but honestly if you could ask a more concrete question then perhaps I can help

whatsisname

i mostly use Visual Studio + Visual assist X for my c++ stuff

BarryTheHatchet

hmm, getting tired. doesn't bode well for my all-nighter. especially considering it's only 6.40pm

Thomas Owens

@whatsisname I tried. That's not good. It suggests Microsoft extensiosn that don't exist in standard.

whatsisname

what are you doing your c++ development for?

Thomas Owens

Linux and Solaris applications.

whatsisname

6:39 PM

most of my stuff is Win32 and windows programs so thats why visual studio is the way to go for that, but it might be different for you

oh yeah, VS is not going to bode well then

Thomas Owens

Ah. Then you're OK.

Peter Tòmas Scott

@BarryTheHatchet Copious amounts of caffeine is a wonderful thing

whatsisname

supposedly eclipse is pretty dece for c++ these days but I haven't investigated that personally

BarryTheHatchet

@ThomasOwens Not really

Every compiler has extensions, and every compiler can have them turned off

The problem with VS is that the compiler is full of outright bugs

And also you can't switch between language modes. You get whatever they've implemented at the time of release, whether that's C++03 plus half C++11 or what

ugh, "and also"

whatsisname

that's pretty much the MS way

BarryTheHatchet

6:42 PM

yep

Rachel

I used to write my code using a normal Notepad+ type of editor... back before I didn't know any better. Looking back, I would never do it again over an IDE though :)

I wrote ASP.Net mostly in those days though, and for me it was far faster to open the file in notepad, alter what I needed, save and test in browser to make sure everything worked OK.

BarryTheHatchet

yep

Rachel

Sometimes I think back to the huge mess of code in those notepad files though and wonder what on earth I was thinking lol

BarryTheHatchet

Thomas Owens

Maybe I need to learn how to do projects in C++.

I know the language. Suggestions for learning how to structure a project?

BarryTheHatchet

6:47 PM

Too broad again

What's the actual problem you're facing?

At the moment your questions are like "can you teach me how to drive a car?" Chat room or not, the answer is "no"...

Thomas Owens

I'm writing a new component in C++. I know how I would structure my project directories - my src folder, my build artifacts, my build scripts - for a Java (or Scala) project.

How do I structure my header files, source files, compilation artifacts, etc. for C++?

However you like!

o_o

WRONG@!

Your Java way sounds fine

Typically keep your headers in "includes" alongside "src"

Though if you're not writing a library that really doesn't matter

Rachel

6:48 PM

I'm guessing your a solo developer Barry? :)

Thomas Owens

Well, I am writing a component. It does things, but it gets compiled and a bunch of components get strung together in a pipeline.

BarryTheHatchet

No I'm a senior developer in charge of four lovely people

Thomas Owens

So it's not a library per-se.

BarryTheHatchet

We make equipment and management systems for the big telecom networks

Thomas Owens

The pipeline framework allows you to choose components and the order they work in.

BarryTheHatchet

6:49 PM

sounds good

Rachel

ahh ok

BarryTheHatchet

and yes we are massively understaffed right now -.-

Rachel

I have not really worked with C++ beyond school, soI am not sure what kind of professional setup c++ devs get

Thomas Owens

So I'm writing one new component. It takes data in a common format, applies manipulation, and makes output available to the pipleine framework.

whatsisname

@ThomasOwens: download an open source linux program written in c++, and structure it like that

BarryTheHatchet

6:50 PM

the five of us do the software; other people make and resell the hardware :P

whatsisname

which is the top-level arrangment of source files, resources, build scripts etc

BarryTheHatchet

@ThomasOwens ok sounds straightforward enough so far

whatsisname

then architecting your actual software is the same as javaville

Thomas Owens

But I've never actually made a C++ project from scratch before.

I've only modified existing projects. I've done some cool stuff, but I've never greenfielded C++ before.

BarryTheHatchet

do it the same way you'd make any project

C++ is not remarkably divergent in that regard

it's really just the headers that make a difference in some cases

whatsisname

6:52 PM

@Rachel: it depends on what products you're making

BarryTheHatchet

everything else has barely anything to do with language choice

Ixrec

C++ probably requires more time than average selecting non-standard libraries before you can get real work done, otherwise yes it's basically the same

BarryTheHatchet

you could write your code in French and structure it the same way

whatsisname

yeah, the only structuring conventions you should adhere to are the top level folder definitions, which I'm sure GNU or some such has described somewhere

BarryTheHatchet

if you're not targeting POSIX platforms that's not something you'd necessarily think to adhere to

but I don't see any reason not to

whatsisname

6:55 PM

he said he was targetting linux and solaris

BarryTheHatchet

speaking generally

whatsisname

whatever he does he should NOT do the obnoxious 12 level deep folder namespace nesting nonsense

that seems common in java

BarryTheHatchet

lol yes fair point don't do that

Thomas Owens

@whatsisname You mean com.company.division.application.realpackagename?

BarryTheHatchet

the project I'm on atm makes heavy use of event dispatch so I organise my code into components/ and messages/ under each of src/ and include/

whatsisname

6:57 PM

cringe

BarryTheHatchet

works well enough

Ixrec

where I work the C++ standard is company.packagegroup.package.class and no deeper

BarryTheHatchet

that looks like Java, not C++

".class"?

Ixrec

as in the longest (non-iterator) typename you should ever get in typical code is PackageGroup::Package::Class (because all our code is already in the company namespace)

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