Game Development

Ibrahim Apachi

13:13

Hey guys! I really want to program an mmorpg but I am always getting stuck and not really making big improvements. I already know how to create 2d rpg's with tiled maps and so on, but they are just offline. The server client communication just kills me and I don't know if I should keep up or stop it.. What would you guys suggest?

Matt Jens Jensen

Are you asking us if it's a good idea to just give up?

user92578

MMORPG is a massive project to take on all alone

Ibrahim Apachi

Yeah the questions is kinda stupid, I guess it's more helpful to ask for resources for learning.. @peoplewhocreatedmmorpg's what can I do to learn how to create mmos?

user92578

I would probably start with a smaller networked project, and work my way up from there

Matt Jens Jensen

Everything, an MMO is a combination of nearly every technology used in modern games

user92578

13:16

But I have no experience at this stuff at all, but my gut says that starting smaller would be a better idea

user92578

Like perhaps you could take an old project of yours, and try to add networking to that?

user92578

Or implement a new basic project with networked movement

Bálint

Or just finish a single player RPG and put some networking in it

Ibrahim Apachi

@Tyyppi_77 that is a good idea, just 2 people running and synching the movement. Maybe i should try that

Bálint

What are you using to create it?

user92578

13:18

Yeah, with a small project you would learn how to implement packaging, which protocol to use, and how to handle server/client responsibilities

Ibrahim Apachi

Sounds maybe a little stupid but currently I am using PyGame. I planned to use twisted as the webserver because it is asynchronous

Alexandre Vaillancourt

When you create a networked project, you should do that first, not come back and try to put it it...

user92578

You will never get very performant games using PyGame

user92578

I started with it, but got frustrated because I couldn't get anything running with reasonable FPS

Alexandre Vaillancourt

And from what I read, pygame is not really maintained...

user92578

13:19

However, for a practice project, I don't really see why not use it

Bálint

Use XNA, it's kind of neat

user92578

I'd imagine networking is pretty simple with Python

Ibrahim Apachi

Yeah I already thought about learning C#

Bálint

*monogame

Ibrahim Apachi

Does XNA have python bindings?

user92578

13:19

I wouldn't start switching libraries, that would just make everything a mess

Matt Jens Jensen

You don't want Python for games

Bálint

Nope

Matt Jens Jensen

Python has very weird quirks in performance applications

Ibrahim Apachi

I am really scared of c++, I know how to develop in java but I don't like java. So should I learn C#?

user92578

Seriously, for learning a technique, Python is okay, but if you want anything bigger than a few sprites on a screen, moving, you might want to switch to another language

Bálint

13:21

No, C# is java with additional stuff

But it feels the same

user92578

C# is a really popular choice these days. It's a really nice language, much better than Java

Matt Jens Jensen

C++ isn't as bad as you think, but it won't hold your hand

Bálint

C# has nearly nothing to do with C++

Ibrahim Apachi

Everybody says it's so complicated ^^ I am super scared kinda

Matt Jens Jensen

C# is no longer just a Java clone either, it's really grown

user92578

13:21

The current game I'm working on is basically my first project ever with C++, and I'm still paying for the mistakes I made when I didn't know anything about the language

Bálint

C# is closer to java and C++ is to C

Matt Jens Jensen

C++ is actually really complex, but feels very simple if you use it correctly

Bálint

@IbrahimApachi If everyone jumps in a well you jump too?

Alexandre Vaillancourt

@Tyyppi_77 that will happen for any project... :P whether it's related to the use of the language or the design :)

Bálint

It's a language, you can learn it

Ibrahim Apachi

13:22

@Bálint Well, that's true

user92578

@AlexandreVaillancourt Yeah, true

Matt Jens Jensen

@AlexandreVaillancourt I'd rather say, C++ still screws me over and I've used it for 10 years

Ibrahim Apachi

@MattJensJensen lol :D

Matt Jens Jensen

That said, I love it for its practical use

Ibrahim Apachi

I guess VS has already a cpp compiler?!

Bálint

13:23

C++ is meant for programmers, Python is for people who don't know too much of programming or want to do stuff easily

user92578

Yup

Ibrahim Apachi

Okay then I am gonna give it a try ^^

Matt Jens Jensen

Python is meant for mathematicians and scientists getting started in grad school

user92578

I use Python for all my script needs

Ibrahim Apachi

I just used python for webapps in flask and django

Matt Jens Jensen

13:24

C11 is also not a bad choice, it's fairly simple too

Bálint

@MattJensJensen Yeah, thise are the people who don't know mich of programming

Ibrahim Apachi

And it's cool for Raspberry scripts ^^

user92578

I have a few small scripts that I use to build stuff for my game, like player sprites and entity definitions

Bálint

@Tyyppi_77 That's the doo stuff fast part

user92578

Python is also used as a scripting language in games, so I think what you said is a little harsh.

Alexandre Vaillancourt

13:25

@Bálint Not really, but what's true is that it's not meant to be used to create a whole game :)

Matt Jens Jensen

Python is nice if you don't have bash on your platform

user92578

^^

Ibrahim Apachi

Would you also create the server in c++?

Bálint

Yeah

Matt Jens Jensen

Yes.

Maybe not the persistent data layer and lobby

But the game server itself, yes

Alexandre Vaillancourt

13:27

EVE Online servers are made in c++ and python :)

Bálint

The problem with C# is that relatively few big games are made with it

Matt Jens Jensen

@Bálint Not true anymore.

user92578

Define "big game"

Bálint

Not indie

Alexandre Vaillancourt

Lol

Matt Jens Jensen

13:27

Lol

user92578

lol

Alexandre Vaillancourt

Heartstone is made in c#

Matt Jens Jensen

heh AAA studios use C# in scripting all the time

user92578

^

Matt Jens Jensen

Assasins Creed has a lot of C++ and C#

Bálint

13:28

And I haven't said none

Matt Jens Jensen

So does Watchdogs

nearly every AAA title I can think of made from AAA studios uses C#, Lisp, or some other scripting language for gameplay content

user92578

@Bálint Pointing this out isn't really relevant when giving advice to a hobby game developer

Matt Jens Jensen

Engines are made in C++

user92578

"Make games, not engines"

8

Matt Jens Jensen

No one makes a BIG game their first go at it.

user92578

13:29

(Coming from the guy who doesn't use an engine)

Matt Jens Jensen

Some people never make BIG games and have massive success.

Bálint

@Tyyppi_77 Let's not say that to Bethesda

Ibrahim Apachi

Are there actually some server frameworks / libraries or should I do the networking stuff by myself completely :D?

Matt Jens Jensen

@IbrahimApachi Define frameworks

Bálint

@IbrahimApachi C#'s networking is pretty high level

user92578

13:30

You probably don't want to do everything yourself

Matt Jens Jensen

github.com/networkprotocol/libyojimbo by Glen Fielder is a new interesting system

It requires some prior knowledge that you should read from his blog

Gaffer on Games

Bálint

Btw, is C++ considered low or high level?

Matt Jens Jensen

Both

Bálint

@MattJensJensen That's what I thought too

Matt Jens Jensen

In C++ four characters can compile to a single instruction or 2000+

Ibrahim Apachi

13:32

Alright guys, I am gonna learn C++ now ^^ Thank you for your advice

user92578

Plus you can do inline asm

Matt Jens Jensen

It has very direct access and high level abstractions, which is why it's so powerful

@Tyyppi_77 Oh no, that's a dirty thing to say to new C++ devs, they'll overdo it

user92578

Feels weird, you came asking for networking help, and we sent you to learn a new language :) Good luck though, @IbrahimApachi!

Matt Jens Jensen

Inline asm almost always ruins it for the optimizer

user92578

@MattJensJensen Never have I ever felt the need of write inline assembler in C++

Matt Jens Jensen

13:33

@Tyyppi_77 GOOD <3

user92578

What's even the use? Accessing some external hardware stuff?

Matt Jens Jensen

@Tyyppi_77 There are very specific cases for it the two I've used:

PS3 code for prefetch and SIMD stuff

user92578

Ah yeah, the console thing was what I was thinking about

user92578

There are SIMD wrappers these days, aren' there?

Matt Jens Jensen

SIMD on console is the case I used it

Jon

13:37

alright, gonna have to extend this server to others

since all you guys just write games

Bálint

Where should I learn C++ Btw? I tried getting on it but I didn't have the time

user92578

> SDL_RenderCopy() returns an "Invalid texture" error.
Don't hesitate to tell me if you need more information.

Jon

Get the time first.

Matt Jens Jensen

@Bálint A Tour of C++ by Bjarne Stroustrup

user92578

"Oh no, don't bother, that's all we need."

user92578

13:38

I have actually no idea how I learned C++

user92578

I don't remember going trough any tutorials

Matt Jens Jensen

A Tour of C++ was written by the creator of the language a couple years ago and takes a couple hours to understand the language quite well

Modern Effective C++ by Scott Meyers is great too

Then you might want to move on to actual game programming books

Jon

c++ was my first real language

Bálint

I had a book by Stroutstrop, but my cousin took it and mever brought it back

Jon

My cousin stuck his finger in my jelly donut 20 years ago

Matt Jens Jensen

13:40

@Jon My first word was "int"

Jon

int is not a word

Matt Jens Jensen

@Jon dword

Bálint

keyword

Matt Jens Jensen

I think my actual first word was essen

Bálint

@MattJensJensen You're Deutsch?

NaCl

13:43

@Jon My first real language was German ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Matt Jens Jensen

@Bálint I was until I was stripped from my land and injected with cheezburgers and freedom

Bálint

@MattJensJensen 'Murica!

Matt Jens Jensen

GENAU!

NaCl

Ja!

Bálint

\o/

Hoch fünf! \o

Matt Jens Jensen

13:46

"\o" what're you doing there buddy? hahaha

Wouldn't want to get a 200 euro ticket for a two character comment online

Bálint

That's a head and an arm

Matt Jens Jensen

I know, high fives were disallowed on the campus I went to school on

The principal thought people were doing a Hgruß

Bálint

So, just because I hold one of my arms up I'm nazi?

Matt Jens Jensen

According to the school district I grew up in

Bálint

Hmm, good to know

Matt Jens Jensen

13:52

I think I'm going to buy ZBrush

I really like what I've seen about it

Jon

isn't there a free version?

Matt Jens Jensen

Of ZBrush?

I don't think so

Jon

pixologic.com/zbrush/trial

you can try it for 45 days

Bálint

You're a modeller?

Matt Jens Jensen

Oh wow, thanks!

Jon

13:54

No but I tried zbrush

Bálint

No, I asked Matt

Matt Jens Jensen

ZBrush has some seriously great tools for characters

Jon

zbrush is more for roughing out models

then you would refine it in other app like blender

Matt Jens Jensen

Yes, I do everything except sound in my projects

@Jon I've seen quite the opposite

Jon

at least that is how it was when it first came out

Bálint

13:56

Some people make heads with it

| PigArt | Zbrush : Asaro head

►

Jon

cool

Matt Jens Jensen

Argh, I've got some harddrives coming this morning and I'm waiting to rip apart my storage server

Crying and trashing on the floor waiting for UPS

Jon

call it a SAN

Bálint

How many HDD-s do you have per minute?

Matt Jens Jensen

per minute?

Bálint

14:01

Currently

I don't know how you write it

Matt Jens Jensen

No I didn't understand HDD-s?

Say it in german

Jon

Matt Jens Jensen

@Jon I love the rise of first person puzzles

Bálint

Festplattenlaufwerk

Jon

Look at that wall wobble in

Alexandre Vaillancourt

14:04

I still have more issues with my network connections! :P

Matt Jens Jensen

Oh, currently 4 SSDs and two HDDs

@AlexandreVaillancourt RDP issues? or something new?

Alexandre Vaillancourt

When someone outside the network connects to my starbound server via an address, it works, but it doesn't work for me, I have to use the LAN IP for it to work :/

something new :)

Matt Jens Jensen

@AlexandreVaillancourt That's it's way of telling you not to look through public internet

Alexandre Vaillancourt

Hmm, what do you mean?

Jon

use my server

Matt Jens Jensen

14:06

If you use your own external IP, your local computer goes through your router, to the internet, back to your router, and to the other local computer

Alexandre Vaillancourt

I'll use it, don't worry :P

Matt Jens Jensen

It's probably a NAT or UPNP issue breaking it when you use your external IP

MickLH

@Bálint Completely wrong. You've missed the entire point and didn't learn anything. I know you just wanted to complain and feel important but there really was an answer to your rhetorical question.

Alexandre Vaillancourt

@MattJensJensen Yep! And in fact, it works, but when the server 'replies', the reply does not get through, apparently

MickLH

I was a teenager at one point too...

Jon

14:08

mind. blown.

Alexandre Vaillancourt

And I'll have to buy a new computer, this one is dying on me...

Bálint

@MickLH I really just asked.

Matt Jens Jensen

@AlexandreVaillancourt Dying?

MickLH

@Bálint You severely bent logic just to try and reject the straightforward answer.

Matt Jens Jensen

Progressively getting outdated, or actually failing?

MickLH

14:09

I'm not going to pander to confirmation bias, sorry

Alexandre Vaillancourt

Yeah, the game crashed many times yesterday evening while playing, error in the NVIDIA drivers. I suspect it's getting overheated or something like that...

MickLH

18 hours ago, by MickLH

Which is actual a useful case: imagine you have a cluster of servers on the same LAN, and they all need to replicate their internal variables to each other. Broadcast city!

Do you understand what broadcast datagrams are?

Matt Jens Jensen

@AlexandreVaillancourt Do you have PrecisionX to monitor the temp?

MickLH

Then this comment should explain itself.

Alexandre Vaillancourt

@MattJensJensen I have MSI Afterburner

MickLH

14:11

Man what an annoyance, nothing engaging in my SE inbox this morning

Alexandre Vaillancourt

it's odd because the temperature does not seem to spike when it crashes

I've updated my drivers

Matt Jens Jensen

How old is the GPU, which one is it?

Alexandre Vaillancourt

They were 6 months old..

Hmm 4 years old+; it's a GeForce 540m

Matt Jens Jensen

Oh mate, you might want an upgrade

So that's a laptop I take it?

Alexandre Vaillancourt

Yes it is :)

Matt Jens Jensen

14:14

I bought my GPUs at absolute worst possible time

I bought two GTX 980 Tis right before 1080s were announced so I paid full pre-1080 price

But you should get a good deal on GPUs right now

Alexandre Vaillancourt

I'll have to buy another laptop, so I'm not exactly sure what I'll be able to get...

Shopping for a laptop is a fcking pain...

Matt Jens Jensen

I feel you there, why laptop requirement?

Alexandre Vaillancourt

That way I can work on my commute to/from work, at Second Cup (coffee shop), in the living room, in the kitchen, at my sister-in-law's condo... you get it :)

@MickLH Who were you talking to?

MickLH

hey @Bálint, I just woke up sorry for not putting my mask on before pinging you lol

if you wanna discuss stuff I'm around

Matt Jens Jensen

@AlexandreVaillancourt I understand :)

MickLH

14:19

@AlexandreVaillancourt person I just messaged to :P

Alexandre Vaillancourt

@MickLH Right, I somehow missed that message :P

Matt Jens Jensen

I just learned of The Apology Act (ontario.ca/laws/statute/09a03)

I'm really jealous

Just curious, does anyone here generate Visual Studio solutions+projects with CMake or just use CMake for building on Linux/macOS and manually manage VS

Alexandre Vaillancourt

14:37

I use CMake to generate my projects now (VS on windows)

user92578

I might need to transition to those, as I'm in the belief that using them would make Linux stuff easier.

Matt Jens Jensen

Do you think you could point me in the way of some resources, I'm having trouble managing VS solutions the same way I do Linux

@Tyyppi_77 It really does, it's so easy on Linux/macOS

Alexandre Vaillancourt

I don't know how it's done on linux; what kind of trouble do you have on windows?

I'm still not that familiar with it...

user92578

My MAKE experience is running pre-build Python scripts

Alexandre Vaillancourt

We use it at work but I'm not the one who created the project files... and I have only done one project with it at home :)

Matt Jens Jensen

14:42

So, I'm mostly curious about finding includes+libraries and adding them to the link:

That's all I need for Linux and macOS, I'm just having trouble working with MSVC

Alexandre Vaillancourt

To include something like SFML

# SFLM
set(CMAKE_MODULE_PATH ${CMAKE_MODULE_PATH} ${CMAKE_CURRENT_LIST_DIR}/../../install/cmake/Modules)
set(SFML_ROOT "../../install/")
set(SFML_STATIC_LIBRARIES TRUE)
find_package(SFML COMPONENTS graphics window system main MODULE REQUIRED)
include_directories(${SFML_INCLUDE_DIR})
target_link_libraries(hagCli ${SFML_LIBRARIES})
target_link_libraries(hagCli ${SFML_DEPENDENCIES})



target_link_libraries(hagCli hagLib)

Matt Jens Jensen

I see, I'm making the mistake of talking to CXX/LD directly

Alexandre Vaillancourt

Yep! Maybe it works, but I'm not sure it's the CMake way of doing it :P

I have to leave now :)

ttyl!

Matt Jens Jensen

Have a good day man!

user92578

15:08

I programmed the prison boss fight in like a day; I've now worked about two days on the jungle boss and still have pretty much nothing

user92578

Sure, I've spent a lot of time just procrastinating

DH.

16:02

And that's why is good to make a hobby project: we take our time

FAHK, Starbutts wiped all my saves on this update, really?

MickLH

The coffee place?

Jon

use my server you fool

also it was expected.. 1.0 was supposed to wipe out previous data

user92578

I remember Chris spending a big amount of time writing code that converted some of Tallowmere's saves to something when he updated something

DH.

But goddammit I'm too far away from your server Jon

user92578

Accurate story provided by Tyyppi_77

DH.

16:07

I don't want to have lag and die in middle of the fights, this game is tough as nails when it comes to fighting

@MickLH Actually Starbound, the game Jon made a server

MickLH

ik

MickLH

16:23

damn just had to dump another one lol

@Jon you seen any 1920s wives around anywhere lately?

Jon

yeah but she's taken

MickLH

that's fine I never cared about that tbh

Jon

pretty sure she wouldn't be interested

lol no offense

MickLH

lol I don't know if I should respond to that

Sie

You shouldn't not do what you were considering not doing.

Jon

16:26

i need a motivator

soneone motivate me ffs

Sie

stfu and get back to work

Better?

MickLH

I'm the nicest kind of vile p.o.s. nobody thinks anyone else would be interested in me but basically I just mirror what someone shows me they want

Sie

@MickLH So you're like a Ditto?

Jon

i meant she wouldn't be interested as she is happy in her current relationship

Didn't mean you were vile

MickLH

lmao they always say that but then they can always be happier

Jon

16:27

or unhappier

MickLH

that's later and I don't have to deal with it

Jon

especially when you are bipolar

MickLH

lol

no this entire topic is bad, I explicitly tried to draw a line on this

Jon

chef ramsey says Yes? all the time, i think i'm gonna start doing that

"Your code is shit, yes?"

user92578

@Jon where the fuck is gorb

Sie

16:37

^

Jon

lol

gonna play starbound for a bit -- come join me.

user92578

THATS NOT WHAT I ASKED

Sie

Seriously though when are you planning on release?

MickLH

man it's so hard to not flag him sometimes lol

Jon

well i had this bright idea of writing another game

Sie

16:40

@MickLH Who?

MickLH

tyyp

Sie

@Jon Dude.

MickLH

when he starts dropping all those aggressive "where the f-" and "what the f-" type things

Sie

That's like one of the seven deadly sins for game developers lol.

Jon

no i mean, i am adding another game inside of gorb

user92578

16:41

Yeah you were pretty far on that weren't you

Sie

Why not just release GORB and maybe make the new concept a new game?

TheMuffinCoder

Sie

From what I've seen GORB even in it's alpha state looks like it has enough content to be it's own thing.

TheMuffinCoder

Happy National Hot dog day guys! :D

MickLH

lol add gorb pong where each player controls a paddle and when the green block hits the paddle it reverses gravity

user92578

16:42

oh look mick is getting all offended again

Sie

hastebin.com - I love this site. So much faster and cleaner than pastebin.

NaCl

paste.debian.net - I love this site. So much faster and cleaner than pastebin.

Bálint

@Sie It has a nice dark theme

Sie

@NaCl The 90's called. They want their UX designer back.

Bálint

0

A: Can someone explain me in details this ciode?

int i, j; This declares 2 integers, i and j. for(i=0;i<=6;i++){ This is a for loop. It loops trough the code 6 times. I goes from 0 to 6 exclusively. for(j=1;j<=7-i;j++) System.out.print("*"); This is a one-liner for statement. It runs the print expression 7-i times. Because i is increasi...

See the question

Jon

16:49

i wanted to reward the player if he beat the game

and I didn't know how

Sie

Maybe you could sing them a song?

TheMuffinCoder

Show him a small animation

Like when the game of Isaac ended u see the end animation

Sie

@Jon I don't know. I think you could add a story and do animation like Muffin said. Maybe if you like the bonus game enough you could make it into it's own thing.

Bálint

@NaCl Chrome couldn't find the protocol it wanted.

TheMuffinCoder

It could be that all the red blocks are coming back in larger numbers as revenge, leave as a cliff hanger for part 2

Sie

16:51

However the real question is are you looking to wash your hands of GORB or do you want to expand on it more?

MickLH

@Bálint why feed such bad questions?

Bálint

@MickLH You answered your question

MickLH

@Bálint These words don't make sense.

TheMuffinCoder

I just noticed how dense Europe is, they have like twice the population of the US

Sie

@Bálint ingrish? Do you speak it?!

Bálint

16:53

@MickLH Because how bad it is

MickLH

but... that's a reason to not feed it

I'd just comment to learn the core basics at least slightly and close the question

Bálint

This is why I don't think the current first post system doesn't work

It should get into the queue until the user doesn't have X reputation

Some small amount, like 10 or 15

MickLH

but then they would have to use answers to get any rep :/

which might be even worse lol

Bálint

No, I mean put them in the review queue

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