@AndyD273 it's fun; I signed up at uni for electrical engineering to do just that (more or less) - now I know quite a lot and don't feel like I want to do it as a job anymore :)

@dot_Sp0T I theory, that's what closing a question is for, but it seems that new users just aren't aware of this - if you close a new user's question as soon as it's asked, it's much more likely to never be looked at again. It's not just about cultivating a list of good questions and answers, it's about cultivating a community that is good at making those questions and answers, and like all things, it requires practise

I can soldier, and I can wire a house, but I don't know how to wire a relay or things like that yet

(I can't think at the minute as to whether that should be practice or practise, but anyway...)

So I go on the circuits SE and go into the chat and ask questions

maybe post an answer if I think I know enough to at least get that right

@Mithrandir24601 but you can't do more than try to explain them why it's closed and what they can do - and that's done when a question is closed... if someone does not want to learn about the rules of something they should not use it in the first place

@dot_Sp0T I completely disagree. It's pretty difficult to go to a new site and just learn all the rules immediately - it takes effort to learn anything, including the rules

They should however, be willing to learn the rules about the bits that they're using. But it takes time

@Mithrandir24601 but it takes effort to want to learn about something. We're all adults here and if you go somewhere and just do something you need to understand that you might get rebuffed - or get something that feels to you like a rebuff

Again, if I go to the supermarket and leave without paying I will get fined and whatnot - it doesn't matter that I did not know that I have to exchange money for the things I take

The problem with that comparison is that: 1. Everyone should know about the 'rules' of shopping - i.e. exchanging money and 2. If someone does walk out of a shop without paying for something, they're usually brought back in a told that they should pay for it, and once that's done, it's not brought any further (unless they've done it before)

Isn't it the same here? The question is put on hold and people explain what to do better. Only if they do it repeatedly they have a problem, for example not being able to post in a while?

@Mithrandir24601 it's not the best comparison, but it still holds

<Walks in, looks around, and quickly walks back out>

@NexTerren <brings you back in to explain you how to behave in chat>

@dot_Sp0T Your mama was a nerf herder.

@NexTerren my momma has a Nerf gun

@dot_Sp0T Now I'm picturing a shepherd tending to his flock of frolicking Nerf guns.

@NexTerren we bought here one so she could shoot us

@Secespitus In theory. To put things another way, there have been ~4k reopen votes and ~15k close votes. Questions asked by new users that are VTC'd are often left closed and unedited

@Mithrandir24601 and what interpretation do you put into this fact?

It is much likely that they feel demoralized by people not jumping up and down and doing loops because of this awesome and totally unique and witty question they thought up in their 5min smoking break

But should should we fake excitement about, excuse my language, garbage?

If you join a football club, are you disappointed and walk away because they did not immediately put you into the main field position?

@dot_Sp0T I would if no one ever told me how to improve

(that felt like a really aggressive way to agree with you)

@dot_Sp0T If I joined a football club, I'd be disappointed if they didn't tell me to immediately leave :P

@Mithrandir24601 same here; but the store example seems to not work with you people

@DaaaahWhoosh I think that's paramount, and shouldn't be ignored. It's better to take the first step to develop a good member of this site than to take the first step to drive off a not-yet-good member of the site.

But also that's a bit of a side point.

@dot_Sp0T I would like a way to get/force brand new 1 point users into chat so that they can get a fast walkthrough of why the question they are about to ask is bad

@AndyD273 Yes. I agree so much

@NexTerren you're a side point

@AndyD273 Come, come. Chat is for us elites. We don't need the rabble in here. <Sips tea>

It always takes time to learn new things. Always

@AndyD273 I would like a way that automatically puts questions by low-rep users or that do not have at least x words into a put-on-hold state until they are reviewed by someone with high rep and cleared for the site

we really need to reform the Sandbox, it'd be a great way for new users to get pointers

@DaaaahWhoosh Nex Terren: Life's side point.

@DaaaahWhoosh make it a permanent message whenever creating a new question?

@DaaaahWhoosh We need a new something for the sandbox. Currently it's a horrible format.

@dot_Sp0T the first post review queue is sort-of like that (except by not-so-high-rep users)

@Mithrandir24601 the issue there is that it really doesn't help :)

@NexTerren what if the Sandbox was a chat room? And we had a pinned Meta Post linking to it?

Can we get a new meta-like site just for sandbox questions? Where only people with a good number of points (>1000?) can answer, but anyone can ask.

@DaaaahWhoosh might be something

@NexTerren getting 1k rep with only questions is really hard and should not be the goal of this site

New user posts question. It goes into queue. Reviewers comment on how to improve it. Question gets improved. Without getting closed or put on hold. That's the current process...

@DaaaahWhoosh Graphic Design is trying something like that. It.... doesn't really have anyone who isn't already in regular chat.

(In a perfect, ideal Worldbuilding world)

Another nice solution could be that questions can only be answered after they're on the site for at least 24 hours - that would allow for comments and edits to do their work/magic

@BESW did they pin the link on the main page so it's easy to find?

New users aren't even aware that there's a sandbox...

@Mithrandir24601 it used to say there was one over on the right

I'm not sure, but let's be honest--how much traffic does [featured] actually add to a meta page?

@Mithrandir24601 well, then how did this get through: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/69758/… - the question is posing a logical fallacy

@dot_Sp0T Compromise. If someone comes to ask a question and they have less than 5 points (meaning they have at least 1 upvote somewhere) their question goes into the sandbox chat where someone with at least 1000 points looks it over and gives some helpful pointers if needed

@AndyD273 that would be another solution

@NexTerren but why would anybody then ask anything on that other site?

@NexTerren how would (or just would) questions get migrated to the main site?

@dot_Sp0T Because they desire to have their question sandboxed. As-is the current sandbox thread is a rather poor format and seems to be mostly ignored since it's kind of painful to dig through, and isn't very visible.

@dot_Sp0T I upvoted James' comment: "... as others have mentioned you have logic'd yourself into an untenable situation and as asked I am not sure there is a believable answer, even in the realm of fantasy/fiction."

I think I've posted ~4 questions to the sandbox, and I netted about ~8 really small comments, mostly over a week after I asked the sandbox question.

Which is, in itself, actually the beginnings of an answer

@NexTerren but the questions that want to be sandboxed or discussed previously to being put on the site already find a way to get improved by either being posted into the poor-format sandbox or by being brought up on this chat channel - the issue are the questions that do not care for being a good part of a community

So the current sandbox thread is... not serving its intended purpose. You guys can feel free to disagree with me on that, if you think I'm missing something.

if we had a sandbox chatroom, we could supposedly get a bot to ping certain people when people post in there

@dot_Sp0T Okay, alternately questions that are VTC but just need to be toyed with can be instead moved over to the Sandbox area (what are those called, anyways?).

If anyone in this room asked that rock eating question I'd have no problem with a VTC, because all of you should know better. A 1 point user gets a lot more slack in my book simply because they know nothing at all.

Like a guy we had in basic training for Civil Defense, he didn't give a shit about it and was a negative influence on the motivation of the whole class. It made the whole experience less enjoyable than it could've been

@AndyD273 I am now tempted to ask about eating rocks.

@DaaaahWhoosh people are already pinged when you mention them in a chatroom

@NexTerren It's to late now, Duplicate Question

@dot_Sp0T I think only if they've been in the chatroom recently?

@dot_Sp0T right, but say a new user came in with a new question, and didn't know how the sandbox room worked

Gotta squish a bug. Back later

the bot would ping us, and we would head over

@dot_Sp0T The different there is that there was someone who didn't do anything after someone else explained what he should do. In other words, a 'repeat offence'

@AndyD273 that doesn't really make sense in my book; a new user should be judged more *harshly*(? it's not the word I am looking for, but my lingo is leaving me) instead of being given slack. It's not serving them, nor us, by patting them for shitting in the garden

We're not patting them

It's like looking at a little child scribbling on the walls with a crayon and saying "Oh, but he doesn't know any better. He's but 5 years old" - How would they ever get to know if you don't teach them?

@dot_Sp0T I think it's a matter of tact

And teaching in an adult environment most often means self-education

@dot_Sp0T I disagree, and I'm with Andy on this. If a 5-year-old takes something that doesn't belong to him or her, I don't judge them as harshly as a 15-year-old doing the same, or a 25-year-old. As people mature (in general, or in a community) they understand and work within the social norms better and better.

We're telling them 'right, you've asked a question and we appreciate that, but it would be good for us and for you if you could do [x, y, z] to improve the question and so, get better answers'

@NexTerren that's why I think I am using the wrong word, but I don't know no better one

@dot_Sp0T No, you teach them, but you hit upon the more important lessons, and don't throw every lesson at them at once.

@NexTerren that is what the Tour does

I think we do a pretty good job of pointing new users at the help page

The tour is actually really, really basic

@Mithrandir24601 but it's more than most people even look at

If you see a user with 50,000 points you nit-pick more. If you see a user with 1 point you say "Hey! Welcome to world building. This is an interesting question, but it doesn't seem to be in scope because of X and Y. We cover what's in-scope to the site on our help page here: "

@NexTerren I'm actually wondering if we don't nitpick less with older users

@dot_Sp0T If my 4 YO touches a hot pan I'll pick her up and kiss it and help her feel better. If my 8 YO touches the same hot pan I'll just ask her why she did that, she knows better.

You don't backhand the 4YO and say "Well I guess you aren't going to do that again are you?"

Now, if the 4 YO goes and touches the same hot pan the next day I'm going to probably start wondering

where it gets problematic is when you realize that most new users aren't actually 4-year-olds. To a certain extent, they should already know better

It's all part of the 'be nice' thing - telling a new person that they asked a rubbish question and to go away isn't nice

if they don't know better, then it's our fault for being inconsistent in how we deal with questions

@DaaaahWhoosh But it's a new environment just the same

when I came to WB, I looked around first, to get a feel for what the site was about and what kinds of questions were asked

if we present a unified front in terms of how we moderate questions, new users can use that as a template

@DaaaahWhoosh this is a point, but I also had to learn that the fault is not always with me. At some point you realize that some people just don't want to understand; or rather they like to pick a truth that fits them best (talk about alternative facts)

@DaaaahWhoosh Where did you come to WB from? Were you already on one of the other exchanges like SO?

@AndyD273 touching a hot pan is hurting themselves, not necessarily you - you will try to explain them and teach them why the pan is hot and what else will also be hot to the touch and when

@AndyD273 yeah, I guess I was. But like you've said, we're different here

@dot_Sp0T That's exactly what AndyD273 was saying...

(or I think so anyway)

@DaaaahWhoosh Right, but you know how the site in general works, and probably even started off with a 101 score. You knew to look around and see how things worked.

But if you, e.g., fry your new computer because you did not think it would be necessary to read a page describing that you need to adjust the power supply to either 100V or 230V depending on if you are in the US or in Europe then it shouldn't be the task of the vendor to pat you on the head and tell you that you did good and could do even better

@Mithrandir24601 yes indeed, I wanted to point out that the hot pan example is a whole other thing than the garden example (but then I felt the need to expand it and it diluted)

@dot_Sp0T Bad analogy

@AndyD273 yeah, I'm not that good at this stuff

@AndyD273 I think my point still stands, you don't walk into a place and just start talking without figuring out who your audience is

@DaaaahWhoosh Yes, but you've already learnt that from somewhere. You can't just assume that because you know something is/isn't a good idea, then so does everyone else...

@Mithrandir24601 no, but we have to assume that the people using this site have a minimal understanding of how joining a community of people works.

@dot_Sp0T Thats a pretty broad assumption. I VTC that assumption

@AndyD273 VTC as what?

To broad of an assumption

@AndyD273 That's a category you made up, the site now forces you to make a comment explaining what that means

In my experience, joining a new community means a few days of introductions and gradually getting to know everyone else. Unlike here

@Mithrandir24601 why would it be different here? E.g. what is keeping me/you from just showing up at one of the meetups of any given community without having asked to join it first or having gotten to know something about them?

It's the internet, and there are no barriers to entry

If we had a orientation before joining then you'd have a point

Maybe a 2 minute mandatory video to watch before posting a question

@AndyD273 you get an orientation when joining any SE site, you can choose to ignore it - because "It's the internet, and there are no barriers to entry" - AndyD273

I never got one. it said, click here to join

I'll go double check, hold on

@AndyD273 I just did with the apple stackexchange site; I just got thrown at the main page because I already have experience in other sites..

The orientation was amazing.

A link to a EULA does not an orientation make

there's definitely more than that if you're new to SE

or, I remember there being something

I sure don't

They do things to try to train you once you join

Mine aren't :P

:(

:'(

@DaaaahWhoosh was just trying to check that but I can't gind a trash mail provider where the mailbox works

@DaaaahWhoosh How many years of requiring psychiatric help did I force upon you? My current high score is 17!

@DaaaahWhoosh Ok, I just used my work email to set up a brand new account, just to see. This is where it takes you: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/tour

aha

and also

That's the orientation. Nothing about what makes a good question

@AndyD273 Some of that could be trimmed, I feel, and replaced with more important things. Can we customize that?

@NexTerren I dunno

Personally, I'd love to see all of it pushed down with a 60 second video at the top showing what we value as a community, and a link to the chat

Somebody needs to volunteer to put this discussion (what we end up) into a topic in Meta for the mods and community to look over.

DW, dot, or Woosh? Any of you willing? You guys have been here for the discussion(s) moreso than anyone else.

@NexTerren I volunteer to do the opposite of that

wait... who's Woosh?

@DaaaahWhoosh You're a terrible human being.

or who's DW?

GAH

DW

OR DOT

*Andy <-- SE blocked that

I can't really do it - no time, need to draw my city and draft that question - also need to get to bed so I can get up for more serving my country tomorrow

See, I can't even come in here to chat to find out how to use the site without 20 rep

@NexTerren Blocked what?

I can't ask if my question is good without at least 20 rep

@AndyD273 oh yeah, I forgot about that

I tried to list you out as a possible person to make the meta post and SE blocked the message.

@AndyD273 yep that's a downside of SE - why not bring it up on the meta?

@NexTerren Ah, Yeah, I probably can.

But the image proves that you get positively spammed with checking out at least the tour (e.g. the tour is the start-site after confirming your registration AND there's an additional notice on the top-left that you should really check it out)

Now I could ask a bad question and noone'd know it was me

@dot_Sp0T Sure, but I have this burning question about how to make my character be able to walk on clouds, and I don't really have time for that.

@dot_Sp0T I do believe there's a rule somewhere against that

@AndyD273 so you're now openly admitting that users ignore the condensed initial info the site wants to give them as a help for their journey?

@dot_Sp0T I'm saying that the condensed initial info doesn't say anything about what makes a bad question

@Mithrandir24601 I was thinking about something with making humans behave more ant-like - but that would actually be a good question

It tells how to use the site

And I quote: Ask questions, get answers, no distractions

That tells me everything I need to know. I ask a question, I'll get an answer, just what I need

@dot_Sp0T Are you the sort of guy who reads the complete ToC before agreeing to them when installing software?

but there's also helpful information on how to write a good question on the 'ask question' page

Well I admit I can't argue against that one. At least the tour offers you to look at other questions using a big orange button

@DaaaahWhoosh That's the kind of thing that I refer to all the time as a first post reviewer...

@NexTerren I skip the boilerplate stuff, but I usually have a look at the sections detailing what I am allowed to do with it and what not

@dot_Sp0T I found a unicorn!

@DaaaahWhoosh I guess this button should be OVERLAID over the textarea where you type up questions

@NexTerren glad you did thinkgeek.com/product/e5a7

...Does anyone have a URL to a perfectly blank webpage? I need a white screen to test my screen...

I think if there was a TL;DR version or maybe an auto play video right at the top of the tour telling the core values then maybe I'd change my opinion on going light on the newbies.

Here's an example - someone's VTC'd a new user's question because they don't know what a "sloshing effect" is - worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/69772/…

@NexTerren blankwebsite.com

And that is not a joke

@NexTerren you know, if you were using IE / EDGE you could just enter: about:blank

@Mithrandir24601 yeah, but that's Aify

he VTCs a lot

or... downvotes, I don't think I know VTC counts

353 up, 2296 down

Just a thought, and I've missed a lot of the discussion. But is it possible to have the "first post" spend more time in the review queue and/or also work for second posts. Like, if they'd stay for more people to review, we could increase young user attention.

@dot_Sp0T also works on FF/Iceweasel

@dot_Sp0T This sounds suspiciously like you're suggesting I use IE/Edge...

@Mithrandir24601 thank you for mentioning this. This is a clear issue of that person and should be elevated and discussed

@DaaaahWhoosh they even brag about their cumulative VTCs and downvotes

@dot_Sp0T yeah, he's a bit of a proud pessimist

@NexTerren I use Edge now (just tested it to see if it still works) - but it really is something that I learned some 15 years ago when first using a computer (running windows) when it was a built-in function of IExplorer and the default for the homepage setting if you removed all pages from the list there

@PatJ I assumed that but did not know it

Looking at the time I ask myself: Should I stay or should I go?

The question in... well, question makes me wish I could preemptively vote to reopen.

@dot_Sp0T get out while you still can

It's a mod! Quick! Run!

Handling questions (that need some work) from new users would be a great thing to bring up on meta. Some quick points of info:

@dot_Sp0T I think this is what I'm "fighting" against more than the VTC thing. There are questions that just not good, and we do need some curation. I just don't like the people that go so far the other direction. And 90% of the time it's the same 7-10 people that are listed on the VTC notice.

It's too late! She's spotted us! Their vision is based on movement, so if we stay really still...

@DaaaahWhoosh if I go there will be trouble - but if I stay it might just double....

Getting new users into chat is problematic because it requires 20 rep to chat. Even if it didn't (mods can override, but you don't want to block on that), the chat interface takes some new users some getting used to.

Having a question on the site, open, but not allowed to be answered for 24 hours (or whatever) while it's fixed up isn't going to work. The whole point of putting a question on hold is to say "we're working on this", fix it, and get it open. If we are failing on either the fixing or the reopening, we need to address that.

We could probably mention the sandbox in the tour, if we get it down to one sentence with a link to something on meta we think is functional.

@dot_Sp0T Meowth, that's right!

@AndyD273 it might be a nice idea to make VTCs consume a certain 'resource' which is refilled by upvoting as well as given a contingent every day (similar to how flags work) - so you can't VTC more than let's say 5 things every day unless you post questions or upvote stuff or get your comments upvoted, etc.

@NexTerren Darling you gotta let me know - should I stay or should I go?

maybe we can try adding comments to closed questions explaining to them that there's still hope of reopening

@NexTerren I heard they see in the infrared and have some sort of motion detecting triangular laser

@MonicaCellio I think several of us feel that the sandbox doesn't work too well in its current form. What other (from a technical point of view) options do we have?

Perma-pinning the sandbox would probably have to be done through a long-running community event (the featured tag expires) and that might be a little weird. But first, do we think perma-pinning something works, or does it just become part of the scenery?

We could link the sandbox from the on-topic help. We can't currently edit the "how to ask" page, unfortunately.

@dot_Sp0T VTC can only be done by high-reps, presumably people that know what contributing means and what they're doing in general.

@MonicaCellio So I think two suggestions were a sandbox chatroom (a couple of people? Forget who) and a sandbox... board thing, like Meta or Main are "boards." (Or whatever the term is, not a site, but a subsite).

@PatJ the issue with that is that you can go high-rep by spamming shitty questions on here; check out bat-users history for example

Oh, and if the language in the "on hold" notice is somehow making people give up, please make a feature request on meta to propose different wording. I don't know if we can get it, but we can ask. Also think about canned comments.

@dot_Sp0T Rules generally should aim to catch the 80-95% of the cases. I wouldn't worry about the one-off exceptions.

@NexTerren @MonicaCellio it would be amazing if we could permalink an open chatroom on the 'New Question' page. Right on top above the proposals of similar questions (when entering a title)

@MonicaCellio I like the idea of canned comments

We can edit the custom off-topic reasons, but can't edit the other close reasons. Again, feature requests are the way to ask for changes there.

@NexTerren it's just an example of how to circumvent it

@dot_Sp0T Also a banner of "New to the site? Consider sanboxing your questions before posting them" for users with < WhateverNumberGoesHere rep.

@dot_Sp0T bat-users? Batman was on this site?

When they are writing a new question.

if we pin a post telling users to comment on how to improve closed questions, they can watch out for when they cast the last close vote

@MonicaCellio I don't get the canned thing, could you explain it?

AFK meeting

@dot_Sp0T it prevents the comments from going bad

@NexTerren huh, that's interesting. I have no idea what it would take to do something like that. Maybe think in terms of a special tag for this on meta, and linking to the tag instead of to a single sandbox question?

@NexTerren I'd rather have it considering them to ask about their question on the chat, thus they can get faster reactions and thus might be more motivated

(it's also just a standard comment you can copy-and-paste)

@dot_Sp0T oh, yeah, we could ask for edits to that sidebar on the "ask question" page. But new users can't chat, and there are good reasons for that (mainly involving canned pork products).

@DaaaahWhoosh the issue with copy-paste comments is that people see through them and will ignore them the same way they ignore the well-meant tour page and question-help pages. A comment needs to show them that it addresses their question

@MonicaCellio could we possibly create some sort of one-on-one room for them with a volunteer user on here that would help them forming a question? (probably has the same pork related issues)

@dot_Sp0T sorry, I meant some standard comment language that we develop to convey (1) hey please don't go away discouraged and (2) here's some help (whatever form that takes). There's a userscript that a lot of people use to add oft-used comments; if we got some of our helpful, experienced users involved in more of an outreach effort, they could use that. Or cut/paste from a meta post where we collect useful comment templates. Or whatever.

wait, there's a script for canned comments?

@dot_Sp0T over on Mi Yodeya, our founder led an effort toward friendly, welcoming commenting that's worked well.

It's not 100% canned, but you can start with a template and then adjust. Easier than starting from scratch every single time.

@MonicaCellio Could you maybe permalink that question?

@dot_Sp0T the challenge here is that 1-rep users can't chat unless a moderator manually adds them to a room's access list. So first you have to find a mod to do that, but meanwhile you've got a user who's just posted and you want to help him but nobody's around to do the chat-permission dance. If you can come up with some way to use meta, that'd be more efficient. Moderators don't scale, even with an election coming up.

@MonicaCellio Have you seen @NexTerren 's idea on doing another Meta/Site for sandbox questions? I don't know if the format allows it (and probably it doesn't) but that might be a way to allow users to get acquainted with the system before being released to ask questions on the main site - like some sort of proving-ground

@DaaaahWhoosh Not really proud pessimist. I simply have been and always will be a harsh marker.

@dot_Sp0T I think this is both a good and bad idea. A new user's question should be treated as if it was in a sandbox.

Two lines of approach: first, if you can catch the question before the person asks it and get it to a sandbox on meta (not the current one but a better one), score.

Second, if that doesn't work and the person asks a question that needs work, put it on hold quickly while encouraging the user to stay with it and provide helpful guidance. I kinda don't mind if a conversation with a 1-rep user breaks out in comments on that question because he can't chat and the question's on hold anyway; we can clean it up later. But engage with him somehow to take the sting out of the hold.

@Aify oh yeah, that works too. Assonance over alliteration

@dot_Sp0T that would be unlike anything being done elsewhere on SE, and things unlike anything being done elsewhere on SE that require technical assistance have a high bar. That's why I'm pushing the idea of finding some way to use meta, like a special tag (and then link people to the tag, not just to meta).

Maybe a nice box (like the hard-science reminder) that says "this is a newbie question, please help him ask it right first".

(with a better phrasing than that)

@PatJ something that automatically appears on a user's first question?

@MonicaCellio Yes, would that be possible?

Essentially, bringing the First Posts review queue front and center?

@PatJ I don't know, but it feels like a lot of the wiring to make it happen already exists (identification of first posts, post notices), so it'd be worth a feature request on meta.

@MonicaCellio In a sense yes. Though the review queue clears the question after a few reviews, while this would be visible to everyone, including those who don't have the rep.

@MonicaCellio rather than that have it instead appear automatically on a user below a certain amount of rep maybe? (also mentioned on here earlier)

Maybe even 20 rep, because after that they can get into chat

it also shows they want to stay around

Or they already got 4 upvotes on their first question

or maybe, although probably beyond the current functionality of the network, have it appear on all question in the first 24hours of their existance

which means it doesn't suck

"This question is relatively new, please give it a critical look and think about if and how it could be improved before you answer it"

Or put it on people that don't have the informed badge.

@PatJ yeah, I see the value of having it be more visible or less-quickly cleared from the queue.

@dot_Sp0T seems like a reasonable variant, and also easily checked.

@AndyD273 20 is good, yeah. Because of the chat limit.

@dot_Sp0T not sure how well that would fly; it'd be a lot more noisy, and thus eventually easier to ignore.

@PatJ "brb; clicking through some page I'm not bothering to read".

@MonicaCellio Point taken.

@MonicaCellio Speaking of pages that people don't bother to read... about that tour...

The point is, I think the problem is more with how we treat new users than how new users behave. We can have very little impact on how new users behave, and a lot of impact on how we welcome them.

@AndyD273 we can affect the first paragraph and the ask/don't-ask lists.

a more extreme idea would be to force them to answer at least one question before being allowed to ask one - while that might get them a better understanding it'd also clash just too much with the SE inner workings

@PatJ agreed; we need to focus on what we can do as a community, not on wishing that new users would do something differently. So what mechanisms do we need to support that?

@dot_Sp0T yeah, that'd never work.

Even SO doesn't do that.

@dot_Sp0T Hard to implement, would not work, would make potential new users go away.

ANd it would go against the "Ask Questions. Get Answers. No Distractions" moto

@MonicaCellio We need to make sure that answerers see newcomer's question as sandbox.

Or at least, make him think of it that way.

@PatJ yes, and you still don't want a question changing out from under people who are trying to answer, so some questions will need to be put on hold quickly and then fixed and reopened (ideally quickly). So fixing and reopening needs to be part of our culture, along with guiding the new person whose question has issues.

(that sounded less imperative in my head)