@AndyD273 but the issue here is that you seem to say that it is pointless to further act on a question that has been resolved while on the other hand you're arguing that there should be further acting - you're sort of advocating for both sides without realizing you're fighting yourself

Like the people of the Vietomnomnom joining the side of the Russians or the Americans in order to destroy their own country

@dot_Sp0T A question that the community has deemed off topic or otherwise unfit should be closed as appropriate no matter what the current state or age of the question is. The main purpose of this is to dissuade future users from doing the same thing

I'm not saying that there should be further acting. That's the opposite of what I'm saying. If you don't like the question leave it alone, it's over, you missed it.

But SE has a badge specifically for going back to very old questions and posting new answers

@James but that's what I am saying already

So it must be important to someone

I mean, if it wasn't important, why make up a badge?

@AndyD273 the badge is intended for people to get motivated to sift through old, unanswered questions and provide an answer that might help someone stumbling over the same or a similar issue - even maybe help the original poster to resolve their issue once and for all; it is also a means to clean up the metrics on unanswered questions

And for now I will take myself out of this discussion for a bit; I feel like I am getting to much into the whole thing and cannot guarantee to be objective enough

See you all later :)

WB is a repository of knowledge about made up worlds and impossible physics.

@AndyD273 and a bunch of other stuff besides.

@AndyD273 exactly, meant to be a help to people finding themselves with similar issues that others have already thought about quite extensively

Exactly, but every world is a one off unless you're writing in an existing universe

So having 5 answers that are different is good

Even if only one was a good match for the original question

@AndyD273 Many questions exist on earth-like worlds or alternate history worlds, some utilize real world physics to explain planetary alignments that are weird...thos are all reusable.

because answer 4 might be the one I need for my world

I think there is also a more personal goal that WB gives to me: it is an excellent practice for imagination and having a critical mind (while being fun).

WB is not just a repository, it's a discussion first.

@James Yeah, and those are fine too. A bad question is one that isn't consistent with itself

@AndyD273 ...thats not really how SE is designed to work though.

@PatJ Not according to some people here... But they aren't in the room anymore

@AndyD273 that is just one thing that can make a question bad...

@PatJ I'm going to disagree with that statement. Stack Exchange was designed precisely to keep discussions out of the general picture.

I can't leave :(

Let me put it this way. Questions should be narrowed enough by the person asking that answers are at least comparable. A question that asks: Why would X have to happen is bad. A question that asks: why would cause X from a geological perspective is MUCH much better because then all the answers will at least be similar enough to compare

@James Look at the other WB sites. What's the best way to wire up a relay? What's the best way to find the center of a circle. Identify this book that has something to do with a silver snake bracelet. All of those have a good answer. ONE good answer.

@HDE226868 I have to admit that's solely a personal statement, and I do think everything should be made to produce long-term content. But you have to admit that most people are in it for the arguing and you have to use that.

@James I'd argue that a what would be a better fit. But still true

@AndyD273 at least your first example does not

The circuit one was not based on a real question

but if it included a list of components then it would

@AndyD273 Right. By definition WB is going to have more than one possible answer. I don't think we can get away from that. That said, if we require that questions narrow things to be at least comparable we can find a best solution for the scenario at hand.

Fixed it

@AndyD273 exactly. And if you include a list of things that you value in an answer it makes for better answers on here

Also, WB is different from other SE sites and it's a good thing. It got us out of beta at record speed!

@AndyD273 you'd still have to describe the voltages it handles

(I don't know if it's an actual record, but fast)

@dot_Sp0T This is pretty much what I was saying too

@dot_Sp0T The voltage doesn't matter. You need a transistor, a diode, and a resistor. The specific ones matter for an answer, but the diagram is the same either way.

@AndyD273 but your goal is to get an answer

the way I see it, you shouldn't upvote an answer because you like it, you should upvote it because it's the right answer. If someone answers your question in a way you don't like, but they follow the question, I think that's acceptable. Upvoting or accepting because of things that were useful to your own internal purposes doesn't make sense to me

And my point is that those sites are different. How to wire a relay is a lot different from "How could immortal children age faster than immortal adults?" A really good question lays out all the rules. I'm not arguing that at all. I'm saying that some rules can be left vague and still get good answers.

@DaaaahWhoosh There is no right answer. you just went over this with TimB.

@AndyD273 there are right answers, there is no 'right' answer

or, not always

maybe we need better terminology

@DaaaahWhoosh I agree, except for the accepting thing. Accepting is supposed to thank the answer that helped you specifically.

@DaaaahWhoosh well usually you will remodel your creation to incorporate the things you like

@PatJ right, but I don't like how in many cases the answerers don't know if their answers will help you or not. It turns the whole thing into a lottery

@AndyD273 Actually the question you mention seems quite similar to the one about the relay in my understanding (at least without looking at the body, the thing that makes lots of WB questions difficult) - both are asking about a mechanism to solve a problem

Say I'm writing a story and I'm stuck on something despite a lot of research and thinking. I ask a question on here, and give as many or as few rules as I've managed to figure out. And so I get 5 answers. 2 answer the question, and 3 offer up alternative ideas that are even better. So I pick the one that I like more, change my story, and now my whole world is improved.

@AndyD273 I'd say those three should be comments, not actual answers. If they don't answer the question as it's phrased, they shouldn't be answers

@DaaaahWhoosh I know :-(

And I'm back with Chinese.

@PatJ oy those downvotes are harsh; especially the first comment quoting science but not adhering to the fact that science is nothing but how you interpret data

This actually happened to me. I had an idea, but it wasn't great. It was vague and had flaws. People posted answers pointing out the flaws, any my ideas are now much improved.

@NexTerren what's their opinion on the subject?

@AndyD273 that's why we have reality-check

ask if there are flaws, if there are ask more questions on how to fix them

Right

This isn't contradicting me in anyway

@DaaaahWhoosh I offered them $2/hr to agree with me, and since that's a 60% markup from what they were getting they couldn't refuse.

@dot_Sp0T The first paragraph provoked a lot of skeptics I guess.

@PatJ well after reading the answer it really doesn't seem that good an answer, but indeed only the first paragraph made the hyenas jump

@NexTerren that seems.... weird

@dot_Sp0T Buying people's opinions? Come on now, it happens all the time!

You know what I love most about the country I live in? Chocolate!

@AndyD273 we probably do agree, it's just a matter of degree

I mean, is there anybody in the world who does not love chocolate?

@DaaaahWhoosh probably

@dot_Sp0T Werewolves?

that's the annoying part about debates, the answer is usually "it's somewhere in the middle"

@NexTerren I bet they love it just as much as we do

@DaaaahWhoosh "Where's the best spot to shoot at, to avoid hitting somebody? To the left or right?"

@DaaaahWhoosh The interesting part of a good debate is to get more precise that "somewhere in the middle".

@NexTerren answer: Shoot into the air

@PatJ yes, but that's devilishly difficult to do effectively

@dot_Sp0T Well, unless we're firing into water or a vacuum...

@DaaaahWhoosh Isn't that where the devil is? In the details?

I do agree that there are bad questions, and some should be closed, but I think the bar should be a lot lower (or higher? I always get that one confused). And most of them should simply be left to the discretion of someone that thinks they have a good answer. That was my original point.

(I was about to offer sending an assortment of Swiss chocolate to the first person answering that with "I don't like chocolate" just to prove them wrong, but it seems I was right from the beginning and everybody loves it)

@dot_Sp0T I thought you were German?

@dot_Sp0T Nope. You have to send it to the first werewolf you come across.

@DaaaahWhoosh If the devil's in there, that explains some religions aversion to debate.

@AndyD273 the issue with community-regulated-things is that there's many opinions

@AndyD273 you could've hardly hurt me more than by that single question....

@dot_Sp0T I mean, that's the issue with democracies. If only the people who had the wrong opinion wouldn't vote!

@NexTerren indeed

@dot_Sp0T I don't remember you saying exactly where you were from. It was just an impression based on different comments... No offense was meant

anyone who speaks German has to be from Germany

@dot_Sp0T Also, if I say I hate sharp things, will you send me a pocket knife?

The issue with democracies is though that no way is the best... if everybody can vote then you can always get your opinion to be accepted by gathering the uninterested masses; if only those can vote that fulfill certain criteria then these criteria can be abused by those that have the power now in order to keep it...

@AndyD273 He's not from Germany, he's from Gerfewer.

...Would "Gerless" have worked better?

@dot_Sp0T And that's not a bad thing when they are about made up things. There's more than one way to stake a vampire.

@NexTerren rather a single by Roxette

@NexTerren Well, they have a lot less Germans than they used to...

@dot_Sp0T ...Will you hate me forever if I say that I don't know who that is?

@NexTerren I might consider it for you

@AndyD273 Star, but they have a lot fewer Germans.

@dot_Sp0T Awwww, shucks. Thanks! :D

I love to be hated!

It means I'm doing something right.

It's so 80s that I'm now wearing a turquoise tracksuit and excessive hair gel.

@DaaaahWhoosh anyone who speaks English has to be from England

@DaaaahWhoosh Anyone who speaks English has to come from England too.

@PatJ BEAT YOU HAHAHHA TAKE THIS

@dot_Sp0T DAMN IT!

grmblblblbl :-[

@dot_Sp0T If I speak too much, where am I from?

@PatJ but it's interesting that we had the same thought

@NexTerren From the internet.

@NexTerren probably the US

@dot_Sp0T Sorry, PatJ wins this round.

@dot_Sp0T AH !

@NexTerren I know, I tried to be political and it backfired - who would've thought

I got dot_spot by a breath

We're already an argument further down

@dot_Sp0T Also this track is pretty decent. Is most of her (or is it a band?) stuff like this?

All right, gonna do my lunch finally...

@DaaaahWhoosh btw that's how our 'German' sounds: youtube.com/watch?v=6V7hw0l3gL8

@dot_Sp0T That sounds 60% like Sim talk.

@NexTerren here, have something 2011-ish youtube.com/watch?v=f1N-Gf0Fbcg

...Given the title of that track I question if I should have it playing at work. Let me find it on Google Play...

@NexTerren it was all over the radio where I live

@AndyD273 enjoy :) I just had dinner

something I've been wondering, is if Asians are from Asia, and there exist Caucasians, does that mean there exists a place called Caucasia?

@dot_Sp0T The "official music video" part has me concerned. I mean I doubt there's full-frontal nudity, but I'd rather not be called into HR for sexual harassment.

(Also I am mostly active right now because I am at the military barracks(?) staying over night for a 4 day course which will end up with me being in a specialist function and getting a promotion in rank)

@dot_Sp0T Yeah? What are you becoming a specialist in?

@DaaaahWhoosh Yes there is!

@NexTerren I am not even sure that there is any nudity at all

@dot_Sp0T Well swimsuit calendars are considered sexual harassment here, so. Take that for context.

@PatJ huh. I guess that explains it then

I hope the people are really mean there

@NexTerren I don't even know the english word for it

@dot_Sp0T Well, what skills are you learning?

Specialist for protecting Cultural Assets/Properties I guess

Basically I learn to make photographs and create fancy PDF documents on what to evacuate if a church or an archive containing 600 year old artifacts burns or gets flooded

If it helps, I don't think we have an English word for that. It appears that "Cultural Conversationalist" is about as close as you can come in an official capacity, but before 30 seconds of Google ago, I hadn't heard that term either.

Do you know the sign shown on this wikipedia article? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_property

So how many people in that specialty do they have in your armed forces? Round about number (10, 100, 1000)

@dot_Sp0T ...Maybe?

Well it's actually Civil Protection/Defense so yeah - about a thousand or some more in Switzerland I think

@dot_Sp0T As in you don't use the term "armed forces" or the Swiss armed forces is distinct from the "Civil Protection/Defense?"

@NexTerren Well in terms of serving your term of service (?) there are three distinct branches you can enter: 1. The armed forces / Swiss military forces; 2/ Civil Protection / Civil Defense; 3. Protectioning Service (we call it Schutzdienst, or sth like that; basically just working in homes for old people for some time)

So what's the basic difference between the first two? Is the second more like a... state run militia?

So I am assigned to the second branch, which is these guys: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_defense

Well you're not a soldier in an army

You're basically part of an organisation similar to firemen or the police in that you are serving the public in your capacity, function and rank

Hmmm, I see, I see.

so, is service in one of these three places mandatory for all citizens?

Sounds like a somewhat more tightly organized FEMA.

@DaaaahWhoosh no, only for men

@NexTerren well the whole thing is actually an international thing - many countries have a Civil Defence branch

@dot_Sp0T that seems strange to me, but I have heard that American women can't get drafted, so I guess it makes sense

Where I live that boils mostly down to being in a response team that has to organize overall efforts when there's a flooding or a landslide; My previous function included creating and updating maps of the area, coordinating helpers and other organizations and being part of the team that has the overview (also tasks such as setting up communications between organizations or different areas; organizing gathering places for people that have to leave their houses, food, stuff like that)

@DaaaahWhoosh I've heard (but not researched) that having women on the front lines is not common in the world.

@DaaaahWhoosh Have you ever had a look at the history of human rights? Fighting was a thing only done by men

And while in the meantime every woman has a right to serve, they still have no obligation (something I eventually wanted to create a petition about.. although more about getting rid of forcing men to serve RATHER than forcing women to serve as well)

@dot_Sp0T Actually it has been showed that women have been fighters in most civilisations throughout history.

@PatJ Still doesn't change my statement

@dot_Sp0T you said 'only men', where the truth is 'mostly men'

@DaaaahWhoosh They actually can get drafted now, but they have to volunteer to be drafted. Which is a weird sounding technicality, but it's a technicality that's even only recently the case (<3 years). Before that, women couldn't be registered for the draft at all.

The fact that history has shown mean that the examples are likely old enough that they have had to be resurfaced by researchers and historians - thus they did not influence the decisions made by a state creating a law about men having to serve a term in a military force

@NexTerren huh, sounds like a weird thing to set up. If you sign up for the draft, you might as well just enlist when the draft starts

@DaaaahWhoosh only done by men, in the context of human rights - I admit of having used vague wording. What I meant to indicate was that that is how it has been for the rather recent history of armed forces and forced serving - at least from what I've learned in history classes

@DaaaahWhoosh Agreed. It's very weird to volunteer for mandatory enforcement. I mean technically it's different, since a draft randomly selects people? But yeah, still odd.

@NexTerren it's just, there's no point in volunteering for it unless you want to get chosen. In which case you'll have a better chance if you just enlist

@NexTerren It might be simply to allow them to show that they put themselves at the same place as the other gender(s)

@DaaaahWhoosh from a technical point of view. But there is always an ideological point of view

@dot_Sp0T Sex, singular, in this case, in the context of the law. Although that might change. Right now the draft is based on biological sex, and it's just for men in that context.

hmm, what happens if you get a sex change?

could I become a woman to escape conscription?

Biological sex, not chosen gender

For example here in Switzerland, if you do not serve (be it that you do not want to serve or that they do not deem you fit for service) you will have to pay additional taxes until the age of 30

@DaaaahWhoosh Well there hasn't been a draft since 'nam, so no court cases, so until it's taken to court or somebody explicitly addresses it in law it's still biological sex.

@NexTerren yes, but how long will that persist

right, but I mean, if I got surgeries and such

@DaaaahWhoosh Surgeries don't change the genetics

@DaaaahWhoosh I would still call you Whoosh

@AndyD273 not yet

But honestly, there's worse things than serving your country

In my opinion it should even be a prerequisite for being allowed to vote (read Starship Troopers by Heinlein)

And with some military experts saying another draft is increasingly unlikely for a modern war... it might never come up for the US.

@dot_Sp0T Can'd disagree with that. And it would probably be easier to claim conscientious objector over getting yourself operated on.

@dot_Sp0T DO YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE?!

@dot_Sp0T it does seem like it'd be a good way to make people feel like a part of their country, rather than just living on it

@NexTerren that's actually only part of the movies (which are progressively more excellent, outdoing each other with every installment but the animated movie)

@DaaaahWhoosh and you make people consider their votes, if you have to work for something you look at it differently

I believe military service is required for any Jews in Israel, male or female

here have some more terrible old music: youtube.com/watch?v=StKVS0eI85I

@dot_Sp0T Really?! I liked the first one, and found the sequels progressively worse. The animed movie was pretty "meh" (that over-the-top anime stuff tends to turn me off) but "meh" I enjoyed more than the other sequels.

Except for the orthodox, kind of like a standing conscientious objector thing.

@NexTerren I might have to admit that I am a big fan of trash movies

@dot_Sp0T Ha! Fair enough.

Well I have meetings, so I must go.

Later, gents!

So @AndyD273 how would I have to react to this terrible question in your opinion? worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/69755/… - I was thinking about voting to close it and advising the user to have a look at other questions and do at least enough research/thinking for them to be able to write up at least one paragraph on how they imagine these creatures to consume minerals and optionally why

@dot_Sp0T First do what I did in the comments to that question, point out what's missing and ask for more information.

That one is definitely on the far end of "too broad"

But we already got a really good answer that might be overshooting the question

@dot_Sp0T Awesome, I hope it helps the OP out.

Now if they accept that answer and ignore every attempt we try to help them we end up with a question not fitting the format and an answer to it - is that good or bad?

@dot_Sp0T You mean is it good or bad if the answer solves their problem and they go away happy?

@AndyD273 it's bad if they show new users that they can ask bad questions and get good answers

Is it bad that they are getting good answers? Are good answers bad?

Hear me out

Say a year goes by, and that question goes deep into the history of the site, and is forgotten.

Another user is searching google for rock eating aliens

Trying to do basic research

and they come across that question

They see Wills answer, and say, huh, that works for me!

searches are done on questions, not answers. So the question should be good because then it'd be easier to find the good answer.

Google knows no boundries

all I'm saying is that we shouldn't reward people for being lazy.

questioners do so little work compared to answerers, the least they can do is make good questions

I almost never go to SO to look for programming answers. The search engine isn't great. I go to google, and 90% of the time click on the SO question

far as I've been able to tell, Google gives results where the question matches yours.

If I search for rock eating aliens, and that question came up as closed, and had no answers, then I would be sad

that question won't go away, even if it's closed

There are already multiple questions regarding this topic.

It'll better with an answer than without

if the question is improved, there is a higher chance it will attract good answerers, and be more easily found in the future

This is the worst possible outcome:

Also, are XKCD comics broken for everyone, or just me?

I can see that one

and I would argue that bad questions are scaring away good answerers, which hurts us in the long run

like BESW, he seems like a smart guy with a lot of good information, but WB drifted away from asking the kinds of questions he could answer

@DaaaahWhoosh AHH! A BAD QUESTION! RUN AWAY! said no one ever in the history of ever. :I

@AndyD273 hold on, I'm giving examples

fine

I think part of the reason I've gotten less active on WB is because the questions aren't as good any more (and partially because I don't know what a good question is, but still)

I will hold my off humor comments. For now

Preserving one bad question just because someone might be glad about finding that one single answer to it in the future is definitely no argument for doing it... It's like keeping every single thing you've ever found somewhere because one day you might need it - we have an obligation to curate the data on here, and if we do sloppy work it will come back on us

@dot_Sp0T But it's kept anyway

It won't go away. Closing just stops people from trying to help make it better

@AndyD273 closing keeps people from answering until it gets better

in a perfect world, all closed questions would either get deleted or reopened after editing

And if it doesn't get reopened it is usually because the original poster does not deem it necessary to give back to the people they request time and resources from

@DaaaahWhoosh The only reason closing it helps people is by not invalidating existing answers when it gets edited.

When you go to the supermarket you don't just take things and go out - you reimburse the store by giving them money ;; a similar thing applies on here where you reimburse the people that help you by showing them that you actually respect them and are thankful for their work

And like I said, that one is on the far end of the spectrum of off topic. Even I might VTC that one.

@AndyD273 I like the invalidation part - people will tell you that you're wrong, even if you are the one that asked the question, if you invalidate they're hastily created answer by adding further detail - suddenly you're the enemy, and that really takes all the fun and joy from participating on sites like this

@dot_Sp0T If I saw a question that bad and felt I had enough info to give an answer, and then they updated it making my answer not work, I wouldn't get mad. I probably wouldn't even come back to see if I got any upvotes.

I came across that question earlier - like a lot of new questions, it's really not very well fleshed out or anything. It really should have been put in the sandbox (if asked at all), or at least thought about more before being asked. However, it needs a chance to actually get somewhere. Maybe in a day or so, it could be a really good question if worked on. The problem with things getting VTC'd is that once it's closed, it rarely, if ever gets worked upon, so never gets the chance it needs

It's a bit like speculation. You throw something out there, and maybe it sticks, or maybe it doesn't, but I don't lose anything either way.

If I value my time that little

If I value my time more, I don't answer

So the thing to do isn't always to VTC (or flag in my case), but to comment (or upvote a comment) explaining how to improve it

@AndyD273 a question does not necessarily need be bad for that to happen; it can be the result of a simple misunderstanding between the question asker and the people wanting to answer things for the sake of answering

@dot_Sp0T A question can be the clearest, most thought out thing and still have those misunderstandings

@Mithrandir24601 but that is not an issue of VTC'ing - VTC's are exactly for that: showing the person asking the question that there need to be more work on the question

@AndyD273 exactly, so what do you do if you realize that people misunderstand it? Do you edit it to make your intention clear and antagonize those people, or do you suck it up and don't ever get an answer to your actual problem?

Edit it.

It's my problem I'm trying to get solved, not theirs

@AndyD273 But you still won't get any answers any more because people see heavily upvoted things and ignore the question

I don't ask very many questions on WB because I know how to research, and I know how to reason through problems. If I run into a block in a growing world that is bad enough that I just can't solve it on my own, it's because I don't know how to ask the question. So I put it up there with what I have, and hope that someone can give me something that gets me out of the mental rut and back where I want to go.

that's a great statement and elaboration. I admit that most of the things I ask are either me having solved an issue and wanting other points of view (hence I will usually accept the most upvoted answer) or me just having a crazy idea that I want to run through the mill of the community - which makes me a bad bad person

Freely (and hopefully correctly) quoting @BESW : People ask questions on here because they feel that some part of their story should be 'properly' explained and they do not do know how

@dot_Sp0T Right, and if you don't know how to explain it, you probably don't even know enough to know what's wrong with it, or how to properly ask the question.

I've been trying to learn electronics in my spare time

and I don't know very much