The Factory Floor

PatJ

10:00 PM

@MonicaCellio Can we personalize the on-hold messages for newcomers?

dot_Sp0T

@PatJ it's more me thinking out loud

Aify

@dot_Sp0T The time I listed my DV and CV counts was simply to prove a point to someone who questioned whether my harsh standards were consistent. Context is important.

HDE 226868

@NexTerren The idea of a chat room is interesting. I was originally going to object because you'd need to bookmark every single relevant conversation for a given post, but I don't think many comment threads on sandbox answers are really that extensive or long. Again, though, there's the 20-rep threshold, which isn't great for the newcomers we want on the site.

dot_Sp0T

@Aify it wasn't intended to serve as an absolute but something that had an impact on my thinking of you / the practices I've seen you applying - please don't take it personally

Monica Cellio

@PatJ my guess would be no, but it's not like oldcomers can't benefit from a friendlier message too.

PatJ

10:03 PM

@MonicaCellio This is probably a dumb idea, but, could "newbie sandbox" be a close reason in itself?

Aify

@dot_Sp0T not taken personally, just pointing out that context is important.

PatJ

@MonicaCellio I personally like it rough.

Aify

@PatJ to clarify, do you like it rough with regards to the interface and barrier to entry (for asking new questions), or rough with regards to people judging your questions?

Monica Cellio

@PatJ it's better if close reasons describe the problem instead of the poster.

PatJ

@MonicaCellio Yeah, thought so.

dot_Sp0T

10:06 PM

An obvious issue might be the fact that new users do not want(?) to spend that much time on here. E.g. looking at this question from January 23rd: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/68969/… - the person asking the question only now had another go at it, at least that's how I interpret their actions

PatJ

@Aify Basically, from an automated message, I'd rather have clarity than politeness. I know it's a terrible idea for newcomers though.

dot_Sp0T

@MonicaCellio one could still add a close-reason along the lines of "This question is fit for the format but needs additional work"

Aify

@dot_Sp0T pretty much any question fitting that close reason would fit under either POB, Unlclear, or Too Broad

HDE 226868

@dot_Sp0T I'd honestly be more concerned about the new users' answer quality than question quality, but maybe that's just because I see a lot of flagged answers.

PatJ

@dot_Sp0T I have to admit it's true. And infuriating.

Monica Cellio

10:08 PM

@dot_Sp0T true, if people can craft a custom reason, we an add it in. (Unfortunately only under "off-topic", which is a bummer but that's what we have right now.)

dot_Sp0T

@HDE226868 it's the issue we brought up some hour(s) ago - the spam answering of people is certainly not doing the questions any good

Aify

@MonicaCellio What do you mean by add in a custom reason?

HDE 226868

@dot_Sp0T Absolutely.

Monica Cellio

@Aify yeah, we'd probably need to adopt a convention of "use this instead of those under some particular circumstances that we will now describe". Dunno how well it would work, but it's technically possible. The devil, as always, is in the details.

Aify

Do you mean that there can be a listed custom reason, or are you referring to the already existent custom close messages we have access to?

dot_Sp0T

10:09 PM

@HDE226868 which is why I wanted to propose an answer-block for the first 8-24 hours or so; but that would be a rather big change to the format and likely to be shot down

@MonicaCellio how about a tour of VTCing when a user reaches a certain amount of rep?

Aify

@dot_Sp0T if a question needs to be answer blocked, we put it on hold. Putting a question on hold == answer blocking until question is fixed.

Monica Cellio

@Aify we can create custom off-topic close reasons. But we can't create custom "too broad" reasons, for instance.

HDE 226868

@dot_Sp0T Oof.

dot_Sp0T

@Aify that is my understanding of it as well - but according to earlier chatting it is not the general understanding...

Aify

@dot_Sp0T Well, I mean, a tour of VTCing isn't really that helpful, those who are VTCing probably already have habits of flagging questions into the close queue. I suspect they may just use the same judgement as before.

dot_Sp0T

10:12 PM

E.g. @AndyD273 was heavily argumenting against using VTC's liberally and quick on new questions - and he was having a lot of valid and true arguments regarding motivation and entry barriers

@Aify indeed, but it may still help people to get a common & shared understanding of how to VTC and why

Monica Cellio

@dot_Sp0T there are people who think it's not friendly to put questions on hold, because "[on hold]" is seen as a badge of shame or something. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. If we need better packaging around holds to make it feel less like a badge of shame, let's figure out what we want there. But declining to put a question on hold and instead letting it collect a bunch of answers that don't help but do prevent useful edits is...not very friendly.

2

Aify

@dot_Sp0T Personally, I'd prefer a high entry barrier in order to get good, clear questions onto the site.

Mithrandir24601

@dot_Sp0T I know that, as a user who never posts questions, when I first started reviewing, I would have liked some examples and better explanations of what makes a question good/bad

Aify

@MonicaCellio Exactly why I'm so harsh and liberal with my CVs

dot_Sp0T

@MonicaCellio I see it the same way, but then again there have been some very good arguments - especially about the shame thing, which I guess can be related to a culture of achievements and success

PatJ

10:15 PM

@MonicaCellio Also probably a dumb idea, but maybe we can change the on-hold's CSS to add a more "on construction" feel to it. (or cute hearts) (or cats)

Monica Cellio

@PatJ :-)

I've got to get back to work. Please do keep discussing, and then bring things to meta as ideas take form. If we want changes to the interface or engine and can make a strong case for it, we might get some help from SE. First step: identify the problems we're trying to solve. Second step: figure out what we need to solve them. Third step: implement what we can and ask for what we can't do on our own.

PatJ

The "on construction" idea is serious though. A simple design could change the perception from "punishment" to "helping".

Aify

@PatJ "This question is currently being fixed. Please hold until the question reopened for answering"?

dot_Sp0T

I also need to hit the sack (I'm some 90min behind bedtime already....) - Thank you @MonicaCellio for joining the discussion

Mithrandir24601

Also, @dot_Sp0T In summary of some earlier stuff: it takes time for a question to be put on hold. It's harsh on a new user, who doesn't understand what's going on. Once it's on hold/closed, the new user is no longer interested may leave the site. New users can respond to kind, helpful comments, guiding them on how to improve

PatJ

10:18 PM

@Aify s/fixed/improved/ and I think yes.

dot_Sp0T

@Aify more like "This question is currently put under construction - please feel free to look over it and contribute with ideas on how to make it clearer/less-broad/more objective/whatever"

@Mithrandir24601 @MonicaCellio that's what I was referring to

@PatJ oh don't you sed this chat

PatJ

@dot_Sp0T But it's so useful!

Aify

@dot_Sp0T No, I don't think we really want to encourage the new users (which are users unfamiliar with the scope) who may come across that text to add comments which could make the question worse. Best let the more experienced users make the suggestions, I thinkk.

dot_Sp0T

@PatJ get back into your unix corner!

PatJ

@dot_Sp0T This is so unfair.

/me goes to the corner.

dot_Sp0T

10:22 PM

@Aify the site is meant as a collaborative effort - blocking out less experienced users from the process of improving a question is definitely not constructive

/me is out, cheers o/

Aify

As a side note, I suspect that if we had some sort of research requirement standard we could limit the amount of "too broad" and "opinion based" questions by a lot.

PatJ

@Aify What do you mean by "research requirement standard"?

dot_Sp0T

@Aify I do not think these closing reasons have anything to do with the research a user does - that is some completely different subject

Aify

@dot_Sp0T The term "constructive" is all relative.

@dot_Sp0T Like i explicitly said, "As a side note"

dot_Sp0T

@Aify so is every . single . word . in . all . of . language

Mithrandir24601

10:26 PM

I still remember the first thing I answered on a SE-site (actually SFF) and it was such a good feeling when one of the mods told me (in a comment) that it was 'nice'. Having said that, the answer then took a fair bit of work from a couple of other people to get it fixed into what it is today (I maintain it's one of the best answers I've ever done). If, however, said mod had told me that it wasn't a good answer because of the couple of problems with it, I would have simply left

dot_Sp0T

@Mithrandir24601 so basically the usual: "Hey there, nice answer you wrote up! I can see you know your stuff - there's only a few minor things that could be improved to make it even better" ?

Mithrandir24601

Well... actually the full comment was "Wow. Nice. Welcome to SFF, and +1."

dot_Sp0T

@Mithrandir24601 that's actually way better indeed

Mithrandir24601

Someone else then came along and spotted that I'd missed a bit of grammar

dot_Sp0T

@Mithrandir24601 these are the best

Mithrandir24601

10:30 PM

Yep :D

Aify

@PatJ I mean an expectation to the user having done some basic research and Googling before asking the question. For example, this question about emp devices could be easily solved by simply Googling what an EMP is and using some basic logical reasoning. 1/2

Even this one is what I would consider a bad question. Simply Googling the words "anti concussion brain gear" gives you pictures of helmets and links to headguards, instantly solving the problem the OP had brought up of how to prevent concussions. 2/2

@dot_Sp0T I don't think what i said was clear - Can you define "constructive?" To me, putting preventing bad suggestions when we already have a user base that can provide good suggestions is more constructive than allowing bad suggestions to come through, which the OP may take to heart simply because they liked the idea

PatJ

@Aify True, though the main problem with newcomers is not content but style IMHO. Knowing how an EMP works is still valuable to WB.SE.

Mithrandir24601

@Aify You could make that argument about a lot of things, especially on WB

Aify

@Mithrandir24601 example?

Mithrandir24601

21

Q: What royal title can an absolutistic ruler have?

The world is based on the old norse and 13th century Europe culture (northern places, names and climate and Europian titles, castles and technology). In this world an organized group of people resists every-country-controlling realm. The realm is huge. There are not many countries that stand on t...

7

Q: What would define the "speed" (and direction?) of an alcubierre like warp drive?

There seem to be honest scientific exploration in the field of the alcubierre warp drive if you believe some articles on the net. So to be a little bit scientific accurate in a story using it, I wonder about the following: The warp drive deflates space in front and inflates it to the back of the...

science-based science-fiction space-travel faster-than-light

Aify

10:38 PM

Had I seen that first linked one when it was posted I would 100% have tried to VTC it as primarily opinion based. The author can give his ruler whatever royal title he wants.

Mithrandir24601

worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/q/49429/19951 (this one would require some basic physics knowledge from, say Wikipedia)

20

Q: How could flying soldiers influence medieval battle tactics?

Two medieval armies are fighting one another. Their infantries are approximately equal, and their artillery pieces are well matched. During one battle, they enter what appears to be a stalemate. Then one side reveals that they have a trick up their sleeve. A wizard, who has been secretly working...

magic warfare medieval flight

For the flying soldiers, all you need to do is find a text on medieval strategy and apply the same principles to this scenario

Aify

Energy from recoil is just someone asking who's unfamiliar with basic high school physics (conservation of momentum). I 'd consider it a waste of time to even try to explain my Close Vote so I would've DVt'd and left.

I'd have left the speed and direction of warp drive question alone, but I don't think it's good enough to warrant an upvote. Pretty sure I tried to VTC the flying soldiers one though.

Mithrandir24601

Personally, I actually think it's too broad as there are too many variations on tactics to count, but, well, it was asked by HDE, so flagging a mod's question is a bit weird, and there were some good answers anyway (although if there weren't any, I would have flagged it or commented anyway)

Aify

So, in 3 out of 4 of the questions you linked, I either would have or actively tried to close the question. This tells me that I indeed do make that argument for PoB against many questions on the site. I don't see it as a bad thing though.

Mithrandir24601

Erm... What's POB (I'm feeling new again)?

Aify

10:45 PM

@Mithrandir24601 Primarily Opinion Based

Again, an example of what I would call a bad question that would've been solved with a single google search: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/69782/…

dot_Sp0T

@Aify that sounds rather elitist don't you think? You're basically superimposing your education on someone else that you don't even can start to think of knowing - e.g. I didn't have trigonometry (all the sin & arcsin stuff) until I entered university (it's a uni of applied sciences and I entered from having worked in the field I now study)

Mithrandir24601

Ahh, OK. I've always just thought of it as opinion based/OB

Aify

@dot_Sp0T No, I'm not imposing my education, I'm simply expecting people to at least google what they're asking before they ask it.

If you google "can you get energy from recoil", the SNIPPET from wikipedia tells you that you get no energy from recoil. Or at least, my snippet does.

dot_Sp0T

@Aify whenever you write something like: "Energy from recoil is just someone asking who's unfamiliar with basic high school physics (conservation of momentum). I 'd consider it a waste of time to even try to explain my Close Vote so I would've DVt'd and left.", you start classifying people into better or worse by the education they have or have not had the chance to enjoy

PatJ

@dot_Sp0T On Aify's defense here, he's not having a trial on education but on googling the damn question the guy wants an answer to.

Aify

10:50 PM

@dot_Sp0T No, I simply classified the question as a waste of time. The person could be a genius who was simply too lazy to look something up, resulting in a bad question. If the person has access to the internet they have access to google.

@PatJ Exactly.

dot_Sp0T

@Aify but you simply can't know that - so your downvote reason is really not something acceptable/good

you can still do it, but I will still question it

Mithrandir24601

@Aify Said Wiki article actually said: "In the case of zero-recoil..." which isn't general. The second link is actually to the question on this very site

dot_Sp0T

I do not deny that the person could've googled - but then I've quite often had someone tell me to google xyz and I had before thought of tons of things and ways to look but really didn't think of xyz. so yeah

Aify

@Mithrandir24601 the second link is to the question on this site likely due to google analytics and how the algorithms determine what you would find relevant. I suspect if you googled the same phrase from a brand new computer on a brand new network the results would be completely different.

@dot_Sp0T The downvote reason literally includes the phrase: "The question does not show any research effort" - please explain to me why my down vote reason is not acceptable or good.

dot_Sp0T

@Aify also what you're right now doing on that question of Jesse Cohoon is just beyond destructive behaviour

@Aify it is the way you presented the example above

Mithrandir24601

10:54 PM

Repeating the search on my mobile phone, using Bing, gives the recoil question here as the 6th link

Aify

@Mithrandir24601 My point exactly. Search results are customized for the user based on past history and usage.

Mithrandir24601

In this case, it's actually because Bing is terrible

dot_Sp0T

I mean you're basically telling that user to go f themselves

Mithrandir24601

@Aify Be nice!

Aify

@dot_Sp0T I'm not sure about that, I'd need you to define"destructive behavior". I may be harsh but as far as I can tell, I'm solving Jesse's question and providing Jesse with the means to create as many variations of constellations and horoscopes as he/she needs.

Even the first answer on the question provides a random name generator. I may have been sarcastic in my comment, but I neither consider that mean nor constructive.

dot_Sp0T

10:58 PM

@Aify now matter how right you are. The way you write and present the information in these comments is just plain aggressive and demeaning - asking someone if they would like you to google something for them is just spoon-feeding them that they're morons

I mean I sometimes (read often) lack common sense - but even I get that..

I wonder that you didn't use lmgtfy.com

Aify

I do admit, I'm probably the last person anyone wants to refer to on best practice with regards to other people's feelings. I treat people exactly how I want people to treat me, and it's with extreme harshness every time factually incorrect. After all, learning from mistakes is one of the fastest ways to learn.

I considered using lmgtfy.com but it was more efficient just to type it out after googling it and copy/pasting the link. Wasn't worth the time to put it into lmgtfy

dot_Sp0T

The issue is mostly that you're a high-rep user and thus you represent the other users on this site to some extent

That said, the question is terrible and could likely have been avoided

Aify

If anything, hopefully Jesse has quickly learnt today that simply googling what you want with the word Generator attached to the end can solve many problems. That's a lesson learnt, a result which is way better than if I didn't say anything. Jesse learnt something today, and although my method of delivery may be considered harsh, it was effective in getting the job done.

PatJ

@Aify I think that Jesse first learnt that you're a harsh person. If he took the second course and also learnt about the googling thing, that's good. But you could be more efficient by being less agressive.

Zxyrra

11:57 PM

Is there any reason not to merge middle-ages and medieval-europe? "The Middle Ages" almost always refers to European culture and history, and the term is synonymous with "medieval"

Reasons not to remove the medieval-europe tag and retag those questions with middle-ages?

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