TRPG General Chat

Miniman

12:29 AM

@V2Blast Thanks for posting, that's an interesting read.

Makes me extra-sad that popular opinion of DA:I was good (for some reason).

Joshua

How easy do you think it should be to find level 12 mercenaries willing to be archmages for a battle?

linksassin

@Joshua What game are you talking about?

Miniman

12:51 AM

@Joshua If you're talking about the simulacrum question (you should really get out of the habit of introducing topics as non-sequiturs), impossible. It's one thing to abuse the NPC statblocks, but your plan for abusing the NPC statblocks relies on NPCs built with PC rules instead of NPC rules.

I mean, if you play in one of those games where there's a bunch of different parties of different levels wandering around a shared world, a lower level party would probably be happy to help, if rewarded appropriately. (Or "for-the-common-good"-ed appropriately.)

V2Blast

1:12 AM

I feel like the tag wiki for the warforged tag is not info about the tag so much as it is copypasted/paraphrased from a wiki article about them

BESW

Flying monkey gaff by Tom Kuebler.

"Kobolds are a bit like Geese: A eulogy for Google+," by Stephen Morffew on Step Into RPGs.

> we all agreed that we’d all like to see geese represented in more roleplaying games. Games like:
Geesefinder
Geese in the Vineyard
Goose Eat Goose

Power Outage: Core Guide Book went live today.

V2Blast

1:33 AM

should this question have the content-identification or product-identification tag?

15

Q: Vampire Discipline to disbelieve in sunlight, stakes, etc?

I had a character around 2001 that I was working on for a game that fell apart, and while reading through some book I came upon a very high-power ability that allowed a Vampire to disbelieve in something so strongly that it didn't exist for it any more. This could be anything, including doors, wh...

It seems kinda like a product ID question; they're asking "which book did I see this in?", but it seems like their reason for asking is to find the details of that specific content.

BESW

@IronTippedQuill @fredhicks The ones I'm actively monitoring are: The Fate Discord: https://discord.gg/btPbUZP The Fate PashPost Group: https://pashpost.com/group/fate-core The subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/faterpg The Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/FateCom/

Tweeted by Sk1mble on April 2, 2019 at 3:20 PM in reply to IronTippedQuill

linksassin

@V2Blast I'd say content, they are asking for the ability not the book

V2Blast

makes sense. done

linksassin

@V2Blast I also agree with you regarding the warforged tag. It doesn't seem to agree with the tag excerpt guidelines

Tag wikis should be about how the tag is used on the site not what the term means

BESW

1:49 AM

AO3 is a Hugo nom. [mind blown]

user15026

I think that is so fantastic

user15026

I hope it wins

user15026

Because like...just...it would be magical

linksassin

Wow... I'm not really sure how the criteria works but damn that shows awards keeping with the times

BESW

"Best Related Work."

trogdor

1:54 AM

@BESW AO3?

user15026

@BESW And I mean of course it fits there! That's the whole point.

BESW

@trogdor Archive Of Our Own, the fanfiction collection site.

trogdor

Oh wat

No way

BESW

trogdor

That's like,... Some alternate universe stuff right there

BESW

1:56 AM

We are up against... *checks notes* ... Ursula K. LeGuin and the very institution of fanfiction itself. ...well, it's an honor just to be nominated!` https://www.tor.com/2019/04/02/2019-hugo-award-finalists-announced/

Tweeted by thelindsayellis on April 2, 2019 at 2:26 PM

trogdor

Anyway, I see Trail of Lightning and Artificial Condition are in there, I just finished reading both of those

linksassin

Best Related Work. Any work related to the field of sciencefiction, fantasy, or fandom, appearing for the first time during theprevious calendar yearorwhich has been substantially modifiedduring the previous calendar year, and which is either non-fiction or,if fictional, is noteworthy primarily for aspects other than thefictional text, and which is not eligible in any other category. This is what I was looking for.

It qualifies as "not eligible in any other category"

BESW

I'm so excited for the sequel to Trail.

(Should be coming out later this month!)

user15026

@BESW eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

BESW

And the next Peter Grant novel is next month!

trogdor

2:02 AM

@BESW oh that soon? Whew I thought I was waiting for at least another year to read that

user15026

I really need to get back to reading things that aren't Baha'i texts or romances :P (Both are good, I'm just not really reading anything that isn't those things)

trogdor

@Ash have you read the Murderbot diaries? @BESW recommended them to me several times and I'm only getting to them now, but they are great

user15026

@trogdor Yes! They are SO GOOD.

trogdor

I just finished 3 books in the past two days

user15026

Nicely done :D

trogdor

2:04 AM

Oh well

BESW

New Murderbot next year!

First full-length novel, Network Effect.

user15026

Niiiiice

trogdor

I thought maybe you hadn't and I had something to recommend that was decidedly not in your normal categories XD @Ash

user15026

I think I also have @BESW to blame there :P

trogdor

Curse you @BESW ! Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaan and all that

BESW

2:05 AM

@Ash No, you read Murderbot before I did!

trogdor

No you! No You!

No you?

BESW

in The Reading Room, Feb 7 '18 at 1:05, by Ash

@BESW I highly recommend it, it's fun and interesting

trogdor

No you!?!!?!

user15026

@BESW Ah, then it was @ToxicFrog, I bet.

user15026

She is also good at book recs for me.

BESW

2:08 AM

Toxicfrog's first mention of Murderbot in Stack chat is after you recommended it to me.

user15026

Hm. Unless she mentioned it to me when we lunched.

trogdor

Who is the mystery Murderbot recommender?

user15026

It's not something I'd pick for myself.

trogdor

There will always be one more person

user15026

Now I am curious but with my memory, we'll never know

trogdor

2:09 AM

@Ash I was,... Skeptical of it at first, but it's entirely not what I expected

user15026

Ah, yes, it was ToxicFrog. I know because of how it's metadata is tagged in my library. (She is better at tagging than me, so I can track things that way)

BESW

Cool.

user15026

@trogdor Yeah, I was like "I don't know about thiiiiis" but then I was like yes good in my face all the words now

2

trogdor

It's an extremely human story from the point of view of someone who insists they aren't human

user15026

YES

trogdor

2:11 AM

I actually compare it a little to the Imperial Radch stories

BESW

And also the snarkiest snarker ever to snark.

user15026

I couldn't get into Imperial Radch

user15026

I feel like I should try them again someday

trogdor

@Ash They are definitely told very differently

But I love em both

And I get more or less the same things from them

BESW

The first couple chapters of Ancillary Justice were challenging for me.

trogdor

2:12 AM

Which is great

@BESW they were a little hard to read I Grant you that, but eventually I slipped into it and the other books were so easy to read after that primer

BESW

Same.

user15026

Ah, yes, I got much confused.

trogdor

I don't blame you

It's literally a confusing take on a confusing story

Especially early on

But it's supposed, I think, to prep you for the rest of it and make it easier later

That's how it worked for me anyway

I'm kinda stubborn, especially when it comes to reading

Heck, I've continued to read books I hated so they would be finished

V2Blast

@Ash this would be a good review quote to put on the cover

trogdor

Like Disgrace

I think that was the name of it

(it was a sleazy story with a sleazy horrible and judgemental protagonist who I hated)

(and that's just like, the barest cliff notes)

(it was horrible)

KorvinStarmast

2:32 AM

@trogdor I felt the same way the first time I read Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury

trogdor

Ugh I just read a bit of a synopsis on that and I do not like it

KorvinStarmast

3:08 AM

@trogdor It's a classic of American literature, or so I was informed at school, but it is written in three different voices. Voice 1 is a person of diminished mental capacity, voice 2 IIRC a young lady, and voice three an early adult male. IIRC they are brothers and sister, and each sees the world very differently.

But the first time through, as a teenager, had me disoriented since I had no context. A couple of years later, in college, it made a different kind of impression.

In the meta sense, Faulkner was sticking his finger in the eye of contemporary culture in the 1920's and 1930's, of the area he was familiar with.

But it's a hard read, doubly so (for me) as a teenager who had not grown up in that context.

For example, the opening scene is a description of some people playing golf (IIRC) and I had no idea what was being described as I had no contact with golf, nor had I played it, up to that point in my life.

Or maybe it was three brothers. It's been 40 years.

Bookwyrm

Since my question was deemed off topic (which I do not deny, just thought it was worth a shot); Is there anything at all inappropriate to Dungeons and Dragons (specifically referring to 5e? In my question, I know that @KorvinStarmast said that there really is not any, and he started his kids off at that age, but... Any other opinions?

nitsua60

define inappropriate?

KorvinStarmast

@Bookwyrm Depends on who you ask. My wife thinks the game is an abomination. She won't play it.

My kids had fun with it and moved on to other things.

nitsua60

(but not for me--I'm heading out for the night)

Bookwyrm

Not sure, it was said in those exact words to me. I asked them to define it, but they proclaimed their parents said that. So, in their terms I cannot define it.

KorvinStarmast

3:16 AM

My son just bought Storm Kings Thunder and texted me that he wants to try and run it. (Likely on some web based platform)

And as I said in my much hated response, if the parents say 'it's inappropriate' you don't get a vote. It's really that simple. They aren't your kids, they are your friends/associates.

Bookwyrm

I own Storm Kings Thuder, and it sounds alright... I just do not want to run it as a DM simply because it is a HUGE campaign.

I do not hate your response, I value it.

KorvinStarmast

Yeah, it is huge. Not a short one off. Well, the rest of the community apparently hated it. So it goes.

linksassin

@Bookwyrm What was the question deemed off-topic?

Bookwyrm

My question about if there is anything inherently inappropriate about D&D

KorvinStarmast

@Bookwyrm D&D attracted a lot of negative press (unfairly, IMO) in the early 80's that still lingers and crops up now and again.

Bookwyrm

3:18 AM

Not something put there by players

KorvinStarmast

Suggest you look up D&D controversies

linksassin

I didn't see the original question, did you try to workshop it to keep it open?

Bookwyrm

Hold up, I will post a link...

KorvinStarmast

@linksassin I was on meta an deemed opinion based ... better for forum, which is probably correct in SE terms. .

Bookwyrm

-2

Q: Is Dungeons and Dragons inappropriate in any way?

So, kind of an odd question, but the main reason why I am asking is because a plague of players (at least, near me) have been leaving the local group, proclaiming that Dungeons and Dragons is inappropriate. Now, I do realize that they are underage, and I am the eldest of the group (Myself being 1...

discussion dnd-5e etiquette

It was on the meta, because I thought that it was not anything to do with the game mechanics, rather, about the game itself. If that makes any sense.

linksassin

3:21 AM

Oh, it was on meta, that's why I can't find it. I think you could ask a version of it on the main site though.

Bookwyrm

How much would I need to modify it?

KorvinStarmast

For example, The Catechism of the New Age - In 1987 two pastors, Peter Leithart and George Grant, published a book The Catechism of the New Age: A Response to Dungeons and Dragons. Joseph P. Laycock wrote that their book condemned role-playing as allowing too much freedom, which the authors regard as a gateway to critical thinking which in turn may result in heretical thought.

Bookwyrm

If at all

KorvinStarmast

I began in 1975, and can say that I lived through the entire nonsense of "D&D is a satanic (something)" and am glad that is mostly behind us. But that feeling crops up now and again.

Traveller, on the other hand, I don't think ever got the kind of hate D&D did.

trogdor

@KorvinStarmast I don't particularly like time skip flow of consciousness writing, and beyond that it seems like there might be a pretty poor portrayal of a disabled person In It?

I could be mistaken on the second point but either way I doubt I would enjoy it

KorvinStarmast

3:24 AM

@trogdor Authors in those days were not afraid of trying new things. Faulkner's challenge was to try and present the PoV of someone who could never write as Faulkner did. This was before radio was ubiquitous. This was before TV. Authors tried a lot of different stuff to try and present different points of view

I know a lot of people who did NOT enjoy it.

Bookwyrm

Should I even try to ask a version of that question on the main site? I fear that it will be just marked as "Opinion Based" or something along those lines...

KorvinStarmast

My first time through was not pleasure reading, I promise you. :)

@Bookwyrm We already have Q&A about that. Let me get you a link.

trogdor

@KorvinStarmast yeah and authors still do that too

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast yeah, Traveller didn't touch on the kinds of story-symbols that D&D did (and those symbols were what provoked the negative reaction, at least at a surface level)

KorvinStarmast

@Bookwyrm Yes, it will be closed as opinion based. It is better fare for a forum.

rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/37720/…

linksassin

3:27 AM

@Bookwyrm You would need to define what you mean by inappropriate.

KorvinStarmast

rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/37720/…

Shalvenay

@linksassin that is a very good point as well

KorvinStarmast

@Bookwyrm If you ask it, it will be a dupe. See the two links I just put in there.

BESW

43

Q: Best answer for people concerned about RPG activities being occult or dangerous?

I've had many experiences where the very fact of roleplaying triggered some concerned comment from the "uninitiated," likely parents or neighbors. Some examples: A friend of mine hosted a Vampires session in a small square in his neighborhood, during a very nice summer evening. They played by c...

public-relations

And material in these answers might be useful, too:

44

Q: Can a D&D campaign be successfully used as a Sunday school teaching instrument?

I am an RPG guy who is also active in my religious community. Recently I was asked to conduct a class at my local mosque (my religion's equivalent of a church) for kids ages 7-12. To make it interesting for them, I was toying with the idea of DMing a D&D campaign during the class. But in order t...

dnd-5e roleplaying social religions-and-deities

linksassin

@Bookwyrm You could also give more details of your situation and ask for advice on how to handle it. That wouldn't be a dupe.

Bookwyrm

3:29 AM

True. I will need a couple of days to do some research, mainly talking to their parents and seeing what's up.

linksassin

It sounds like an X-Y problem. "People are leaving my group because they think it is inappropriate" -> "Is D&D inappropriate?". The real issue is people leaving your group

@Bookwyrm Excellent, do that. Try to get quotes of specific complaints. I hope we can help you.

KorvinStarmast

@linksassin The real issue is "parents don't like D&D" (for whatever reason) I think.

BESW

Yeah, it's definitely a case for asking the parents what's inappropriate.

And the solution might be just switching to a non-D&D RPG.

Bookwyrm

I do not really mind that, I can always find new people. The main reason I was wondering is because most of my players all pulled the same reason for leaving: their parents said it was inappropriate. I

KorvinStarmast

That still happens. Not sure where you live, but I see that kind of response to D&D where I live: lots of conservative catholics round here.

linksassin

3:31 AM

@KorvinStarmast Agreed, your links give plenty of general reasons that could be. We need more specifics for this to not be a dupe.

Bookwyrm

As for investing in a non-D&D RPG, I have already invested a lot into D&D, I have the core rulebooks, and most of the supplementals... Looks like I will be finding a new group.

KorvinStarmast

@bookwyrm There may be something else going on and that is being used as an excuse. Hard to tell, really, from way across the internet. :) Your idea to talk with people a bit more is a good plan. Be open to hear some things you may not want to hear.

Bookwyrm

Alright. I will hunt for quotes and hope for the best. Thanks guys!

BESW

There are a LOT of awesome RPGs which are completely free. D&D is one of the most expensive sunk-costs RPGs around.

4

KorvinStarmast

@Bookwyrm Or find a new group. :) Also a good plan.

trogdor

3:33 AM

Yeah

Bookwyrm

Could you list a few of the free RPGS

Shalvenay

@Bookwyrm Fate and Dungeon World come to mind offhand

KorvinStarmast

Roll for Shoes?

Shalvenay

RFS if you want lighter fare, as well

trogdor

A solid solution would be a non DnD rpg I bet

linksassin

3:34 AM

@Bookwyrm see BESW's profile. rpg.stackexchange.com/users/4398/besw

trogdor

RFS is a great one

Bookwyrm

I have heard of Dungeon world, might try that with them if they are cool with that. Anyway, its getting late, I gotta log off. Catch'ya later!

KorvinStarmast

There is a free stripped down version of a D&D like game, Mazes and Minotaurs, set in Greek Mythology setting. Free down load.

Shalvenay

@Bookwyrm DW might not quite be the answer trope-wise, though

Bookwyrm

Why is that?

linksassin

3:35 AM

I think DW is unlikely to solve the thematic issues of D&D. Perhaps a different setting is required

BESW

@Bookwyrm I play Lady Blackbird and Fate Core a lot. Fate has many free adventures and settings, too, for a wide variety of play.

Shalvenay

it builds off of a lot of the same symbology and tropes D&D (especially older school D&D) did/does

Bookwyrm

Guess I might take a look at Fate core. Sounds alright...

Shalvenay

Fate's probably a good choice (something like Uranium Chef shouldn't draw any hackles)

BESW

LB and Fate both require no maps, grids, minis, or fancy dice; you can play them with pencil and paper and d6s.

trogdor

3:36 AM

I think Lady Blackbird might just be perfect for the situation

Bookwyrm

Sounds good. I might look at Lady Blackbird as well.

KorvinStarmast

mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/revised.html

BESW

And yes, Dungeon World is not a good solution for your situation; it's still D&D in all the ways a parent would care about in terms of "inappropriate."

KorvinStarmast

I have heard only good things about Lady Blackbird, but have not played it.

trogdor

It's a really neat system, and for introducing people to A very non-DND RPG it's a pretty good choice

user15026

3:38 AM

Lady Blackbird sounds super fun.

linksassin

A good answer to your eventual question will need to address how to show parents that you aren't playing D&D. My own certainly aren't RPG savvy enough to know the difference.

BESW

Fate lets you create your own setting and themes from scratch, or use the free settings for anything from deep-sea exploration to scifi music-and-dance competitions to Puerto Rican fantasy.

trogdor

True

Bookwyrm

Alright. Thanks, I really gotta go. Bye!

BESW

ttfn

Let us know how it goes!

Shalvenay

3:39 AM

@linksassin yeah, speaking of that, I should see about finding a RPG that I can play with my parents

trogdor

Fate is also good specifically because you can tailor it to cut out any and everything that the parents wouldn't like in terms of inappropriate themes

You just have to know what that is exactly

Which if you don't know yet I guess you'll have to find out

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay Paranoia? :)

Shalvenay

I've tried 5e with them twice (once in a large but short-form group that I improv'd in my early days of DMing, and once with an abortive effort as a campaign) -- the main snag I hit was actually more on the dice side of things

trogdor

How so?

Too many dice?

Shalvenay

as in a player who just didn't quite get that the dice weren't out to get them, so to speak, (i.e. they were thrown off by a supposedly competent-at-things char being the victim of poor rolls)

trogdor

3:42 AM

Or the fact that things are decided by a big D20? (IE pretty random)

Shalvenay

@trogdor yes, this

linksassin

@Shalvenay Really? I haven't found the dice mechanics of d&d to be an issue. The combat system can be sometimes though.

KorvinStarmast

swingy dice are swingy

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast yeah, it was the swinginess that I think was getting to them some

KorvinStarmast

I missed out by half a day a chance to get Deluxe Tunnels and Trolls for 45 bucks. At local book store. I am so mad I missed it.

trogdor

3:43 AM

@Shalvenay go figure one of the two dice problems I have with DND is something other people dislike, gasp shock

XD

linksassin

@Shalvenay One way to combat that is to not require so many rolls. If they can do it then don't bother rolling unless there is pressure on the situation.

Shalvenay

@linksassin yeah, I'm less dice-happy than I used to be as a DM :)

KorvinStarmast

Or always have them roll 2 ... ;) DM can always rule adv/disad ... as needed. ;)

linksassin

@KorvinStarmast How do you do a flat roll if they roll them at the same time?

trogdor

I kind of like that, for example, GSS has no dice

KorvinStarmast

3:45 AM

yeah, that's a nice feature of that game.

trogdor

And instead you spend points to do stuff

KorvinStarmast

Flotsam is diceless and GMless. but I need to get my brain around it.

trogdor

And it's all about deciding what to put a resource into and how to get more of it

Shalvenay

@linksassin different colored d20s

KorvinStarmast

I just received dice I didn't need, but that Ben made me order.

It was all his fault.

Shalvenay

3:46 AM

(red is flat, blue is adv/disadv)

KorvinStarmast

:p

trogdor

And it ties into the theme because "how to get more if it" is "make more friends and strengthen your current relationships"

KorvinStarmast

Yeah, it took me a few back and forths to begin to grok that. Glad you were there to guide us along.

linksassin

Not a bad idea. I'm not sure it solves the problem though.

trogdor

Also "do cute or helpful things"

Though we didn't really go over that one much because one shot

linksassin

3:48 AM

@Shalvenay How much other tabletop gaming experience do your parents have?

trogdor

Dreams would have complicated the first experience with the game too much I think

Shalvenay

@linksassin basically nil

BESW

Sounds to me like the easiest solution is to change the frame of failure from internal to external.

KorvinStarmast

Infinite Dice "complete elder black" dice showed up. I totally had to get them (It was either Ben or Goodguy, I need to check back a few days

trogdor

@BESW I still think swinging a D20 around to do stuff is probably one of the dumbest things about DND though, I can completely sympathize with someone not liking it,

BESW

3:52 AM

That too.

linksassin

@Shalvenay You may want to try some boardgames first. See if you can get them interested.

Shalvenay

@linksassin oh, boardgames aren't an issue :)

trogdor

To think I liked it at some point

Or at least thought I did

KorvinStarmast

Here it is: Proof that it is All Ben's Fault! (uh, and mine since I was unable to resist)

trogdor

Lol

KorvinStarmast

3:55 AM

I got blue ones, precious ... and a sleeve of extra six sided dice ... quiver ... precious ...

BESW

For me, I think it'd be unfair to say that I didn't like it? I got joy from D&D and specifically liked the d20 swinginess for a long time. I've changed my mind, and I think the reasons I cited for d20 swinginess being good were flawed, but that doesn't retroactively make my joy false.

trogdor

Hehe

KorvinStarmast

OK, I better go to bed. I am losing my grip. 8^o see ya.

trogdor

@BESW ok yeah fair,

linksassin

@Shalvenay So they have played boardgames? Any particular favourites? We may be able to suggest an RPG that crosses the bridge between tehm

trogdor

3:56 AM

@BESW I think I just have trouble separating how I feel about it now and how I felt about it back at that time

Shalvenay

@linksassin all sorts of stuff, from Sorry to Trivial Pursuit down into card stuff as well (cribbage is common)

we have the HeroQuest board game kicking around and have played it before as well

(albeit not extensively)

BESW

@linksassin The problem Shalv's describing isn't about being reluctant to play games, or unfamiliarity with kitchen-sink fantasy.

The problem is specifically his parents having noticed that using a d20 to determine pass/fail outcomes creates a situation where the randomness of the mechanic often overshadows the character's supposed skill, causing ludonarrative dissonance when a supposedly competent character fails at simple tasks when that failure is not interesting and does not advance the story.

linksassin

@BESW I know, the initial question was "find an RPG to get my parents into" though so more information is useful.

BESW

Do: Pilgrims of the Flying Temple; A Penny For My Thoughts; Microscope; Cthulhu Dark; Lovecraftesque; anything with the 4dF curve or similar...

Shalvenay

@BESW yup, goblin dice exactly

@BESW yeah, Fate would be good, just need to get to the point where I'm comfortable running the thing :)

BESW

4:09 AM

Hot Guys Making Out doesn't use dice; its randomization is a hand of cards so you can still control a lot.

linksassin

@Shalvenay RFS or Goblin Quest would be my suggestions.

Shalvenay

@linksassin RFS might be worth trying, actually

linksassin

I have used Goblin Quest as an intro session for a long time and it always works well. Recently learned about RFS from here and it sounds great.

BESW

And ANY game can be made to have less ludonarrative dissonance from goblin dice, by re-framing failure as external.

"I'm an amazingly skilled warrior who tried to kick down a door and missed" becomes "I'm an amazingly skilled warrior who tried to kick down a door but it was reinforced and blocked on the other side."

Shalvenay

@BESW yes, that is a very good point

BESW

4:11 AM

It doesn't make the goblin dice problem go away, but it helps with the dissonance.

Jan 6 '18 at 5:07, by BESW

In one, it was a single person and I judged from knowing them that they'd like to see the different tools of gaming: zooming detail, narrative control options, montage, play-to-discover, etc. RFS was a great way to showcase those in a short period of time because I could decide all on my own when and how to invoke them.

V2Blast

4:34 AM

I appreciate RPG.SE for introducing me to so many different RPGs I hadn't heard of

...though I haven't actually played any of them yet

:P

BESW

[grin] I know people think of me as having played SO MANY RPGs, but I haven't played half the things I want to try.

linksassin

@BESW Do you play in any long running campaigns? I do wonder how people have time to try so many different RPGs

BESW

@linksassin Back in my D&D days, campaigns tended to last between five and twelve months, once almost two years.

I've done a few long-running campaigns in Fate, but as peoples' schedules became more complex it was harder and harder to commit to long-form storytelling and people would stop coming if they couldn't come every time.

linksassin

Ah that makes sense. I have 3 campaigns running at the moment. The shortest is ~1 year. the others are ~2.5 and ~3.5

BESW

So I switched out to short-form stories, often one-shots, so that people can show up whenever they can without any pressure or sense of having missed out. If we have long campaigns, they're episodic: collections of one-shots in the same setting with an ensemble cast who shifts from story to story.

This also makes it easier to try new things, because we don't have an expectation that it has to be better than one night of fun.

user15026

5:01 AM

I like the idea of telling short stories like that.

trogdor

It works especially well if you have intermittent time for games

Which we definitely do right now

Extremely so

BESW

5:15 AM

Hey @Gingerhazing! I’m a professional tabletop RPG designer and writer, as well as a queer girl nerd princess who loves the She-Ra franchise. I want to help you make this April Fool’s joke into a reality, and I have a major game company willing to help make it happen! https://twitter.com/SheRaRoleplay/status/1112494079151992832

Tweeted by AmazonChique on April 2, 2019 at 4:42 AM

linksassin

@BESW Ah the classic backfiring april fools day joke that touches a nerve.

BESW

That's why Katanas & Trenchcoats was the best RPG prank ever.

linksassin

Haven't heard of it, what's the story?

MikeQ

You win by ironically RPing as the edgiest edgelord

BESW

In 2015 Ryan Macklin released a fully playable joke RPG, with proceeds going to a charity.

It was a satire of dark edgy self-indulgent WW-style gaming, but with a loving bite and some actually interesting gameplay features.

linksassin

5:24 AM

Jokes that actually have a product are the best.

BESW

It was so popular that he released expansions for Space Wizards and Car Wizards.

There was also an extremely successful Kickstarter campaign to re-write it to be more playable and fully featured, which he's still doing.

At its core, it's an "immortals are sad but awesome" homage to Highlander.

But it's designed to work with most any "immortals are sad and lonely but awesome and sexy" story concept.

Vampires, Road Warriors, whatever.

V2Blast

@BESW yeah, as soon as I saw the original tweet I was disappointed to find out it wasn't real

BESW

(In the original version, you got more build points for your character the longer your backstory was.)

linksassin

One of my friends is working on a RPG that had some mechanic for the most tortured and cliche backstory

We had a great thread coming up with them for him.

MikeQ

@V2Blast Maybe one of the Fate modules could be rewritten into a narrative about magical warrior princesses

Perhaps Masters of Umdaar is a good choice? (@BESW would know better than I)

BESW

5:40 AM

Masters of Umdaar would be good for the setting, but it'd require some fiddling to embody the themes.

trogdor

Masters of Umdar was literally made to be like He man and Thunder cats and such

So yes

BESW

Masters of Umdaar is inspired by the original 80s cartoons; the reboot is a bit different in tone and theme.

trogdor

@BESW I suppose that's fair too

Some tweaking would be in order

But it's still closer than anything else I can think of at least

Maybe Change the motivation from exploration to protecting your friends from evil

The relationship stuff between players probably doesn't need a change though?

BESW

Yeah, if anything I'd want to put in another relationship mechanic.

trogdor

Yeah

That's fair

Like on top of what's already there

BESW

5:51 AM

Or, no. A self-awareness mechanic.

trogdor

So I guess in all fairness, it's a good start but it definitely needs tweaking if some kind

BESW

If the group is willing to bring all that theme and tone to the game, or isn't interested in it, then MoU would probably do very well out of the box.

V2Blast

Well, it would seem @Wizards_DnD Art & Arcana is a finalist for a Hugo Award this year! http://www.thehugoawards.org/2019/04/2019-hugo-award-1944-retro-hugo-award-finalists/#more-3388 #dnd #rpg @SamWitwer @kyle_newman @MikeWitwer

Tweeted by docetist on April 2, 2019 at 5:30 PM

kviiri

@nitsua60 I, too, have fairly little juice in me to do it now, but I promise I'll get back to it if no one beats me to it

We played Cuba Libre yesterday. It wss a fun game, although we were technically disadvantaged at enjoying it at first

One player was late, another two hadn't read the rules and there I am trying to explain a game I've never played

BESW

6:08 AM

Now I have Aqua's "Cuba Libre" stuck in my head. Thanks.

kviiri

We stopped at about half-way point when we noticed the deck wasn't getting any smaller

@BESW For other cocktail-related music, try the Pina Colada song

BESW

6:24 AM

That one was always a little off to me.

trogdor

@BESW yeah I think I'm used to thinking "well of course we will if that's what we want"

BESW

Hmm, now I'm thinking about a character creation activity where players work together to determine qualities their characters share, and qualities that their characters are opposed on.

Something like: with the person on your left, identify something both your characters value and something they disagree about. Repeat with the person on your right.

trogdor

6:52 AM

that would be pretty cool actually

BESW

"We agree that the Fright Zone is the greatest threat to Etheria, but we disagree about whether Catra is redeemable."

trogdor

yes XD

BESW

...Oooh.

Everybody has two aspect slots that start "I believe," and two that start "I doubt."

trogdor

instead of the motivation for "exploring" and the relationship to one other PC?

BESW

Probably? I'm not thinking about this as an Umdaar hack right now.

vicky_molokh

6:59 AM

I'm ambivalent about that idea. On one hand it does produce links and 'antilinks' in the party. On the other, it seems to eat up a PC's Aspect 'budget'.

trogdor

@BESW ok

BESW

With the person on your left, decide an "I believe" aspect that your characters will share. Repeat with the person on your right.

Then look at the "I believe" aspect of the person on your left which you don't share with them, and write an "I doubt" aspect related to it. Repeat with the person on your right.

trogdor

@BESW hmmm

that takes a little choice away though right?

it's not necessarily horrible but

BESW

I'd want to playtest it and see what happens, obviously.

trogdor

hmm

BESW

7:02 AM

But importantly, "I doubt" aspects don't have to directly contradict someone else's "I believe."

They just have to be related to it.

trogdor

I thought of two alternatives but they just actually shift the problem around

BESW

And doubt/belief may not be the right frame.

trogdor

if there even is one

BESW

But I think the underlying principle is worth poking at.

vicky_molokh

I think it's a good 'systemless' idea. As in, it doesn't need to engage with the mechanics. Let Aspects be what they are, and just find a shared belief and disagreement for the pairs of PCs without affecting the system.

trogdor

7:04 AM

@BESW I agree

BESW

@vicky_molokh I don't care about balance and budgets when I'm brainstorming. Or much at all, really, if an imbalanced concept pushes the kind of game I want to play then balance is just going to make me break what works.

vicky_molokh

Not that kind of budget.

BESW

Worrying about budgets and balance at this stage is like fixing syntax and grammar on a first draft.

vicky_molokh

Elaborating:

When I talk about the Aspect 'budget', I don't worry about it because it makes PCs less powerful, but because it takes away personal characterisation in favour of group characterisation. Aspects are meant to follow the PC's characterisation.

I'm thinking *if* you actually need those agreement-Aspects and disagreement-Aspects, it's better to have them be 'free-floating' between the appropriate pairs of PCs, not part of each PC's big five.

BESW

Yes, you're talking about limiting a player's freedom of choice in making characters. [shrug] That's not something this stage of design is worried about and if I'm successful at drilling down to the heart of a game's theme and tone then the choices made within that structure are where the freedom lies.

vicky_molokh

7:09 AM

Maybe it's a matter of how I see people.

BESW

Customization is most effective when it's framed within a game's theme and tone rather than divorcing theme and tone from the characters' core design.

Otherwise you get a different game with an awkward thing tacked onto the side.

(And I started playing Fate in a system which had seven character aspects by default. I know what aspect bloat is like and I think five is pushing it; in my experience people frequently really stretch to fill that last aspect slot and it often winds up either just duplicating an existing concept or pushing their character a way they aren't super confident about.)

vicky_molokh

> Yes, you're talking about limiting a player's freedom of choice in making characters.

Close, but not quite. I'm talking about making the bonds between characters deeper at the cost of making the characters themselves (in their own right, by their own merits etc.) shallower. It's a shifting around of choice.

trogdor

@BESW yep, I do this all the time without even flagging it

until later

BESW

...so I'm making a game about character relationships, and your concern is that I'm making a game that puts more emphasis on the relationships between the characters? Duly noted.

trogdor

....... when I feel like it's too late to change it

vicky_molokh

7:12 AM

@BESW I've read report of some variation that had even more, and that it was bad. I'm seriously thinking that there needs to be precisely as many Aspects as are necessary, no more, no less. This doesn't always need to be five, or 2 or 7.

@BESW I'm thinking relationships don't exist in a vacuum, and are heavily based on who the characters are.

I like the retention of said base.

BESW

Since we haven't even determined how many aspects would be in play for this game at this point, I think you're putting the cart before the horse.

vicky_molokh

@BESW Fair criticism of my hastiness.

BESW

The core of the stories in this concept, the interesting bits, are the relationships.

That's what I'm focusing on.

It's the heart of the concept so I'm going to work it out before worrying about what support it needs.

I also know, from experience, that it's really easy and fun for relationship aspects to reflect personal identity outside the relationship, and for more personal aspects to re-frame relationship aspects in new lights.

If I have a shared aspect that Friends are the only thing you can trust, but I have Bow is my only friend and the other person has Makes friends easily, our shared aspect is now completely changed.

V2Blast

one day I should learn the basics of the Fate system, if only to understand these conversations :P

BESW

What kind of game is Fate?

Jul 24 '13 at 7:43, 22 minutes total – 43 messages, 5 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked Aug 26 '13 at 15:00 by BESW

An excerpt on Fate

May 27 '13 at 12:39, 3 minutes total – 11 messages, 3 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked May 27 '13 at 12:44 by doppelgreener

Hot RPG Questions

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V2Blast

@BESW thanks :)

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V2Blast

from the feed:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?6176-John-Wick-Sells-7th-Sea-to-Chaosium
" Chaosium, publishers of the award-winning tabletop roleplaying games Call of Cthulhu, RuneQuest, and King Arthur Pendragon, has acquired John Wick’s acclaimed 7th Sea RPG , it was announced today.

7th Sea is John’s Wick’s swashbuckling and sorcery roleplaying game set set in the fictional world of Théah. The second edition of 7th Sea was crowdfunded by John Wick’s own company, John Wick Presents in 2016, setting a then-record on Kickstarter for a tabletop RPG, raising over $1.3 million dollars.

BESW

@V2Blast I think the biggest philosophical thing to understand about Fate is that its mechanics are used to mark off interesting things about the narrative. That is, a thing which is true is only given mechanics if it's interesting/dramatic to interact with--which means things can gain or lose mechanics as the story changes.

kviiri

@BESW This interests me as an idea, because I feel that usually personality traits and similar all but require the "acoustics" of having another character to reflect them of

BESW

7:29 AM

(Kind of like how a minor background character might get a backstory and speaking parts if the fans like 'em a lot.)

kviiri

7:39 AM

I think classic double act comedy, eg. in the British sitcom Blackadder, is a good simplified example of how character personalities interact. There's two characters: the straight guy and the funny guy. The usual formula is that the funny guy says something naive or silly, and the straight man seals the joke with a witty retort. The formula needs both to work --- neither would be very funny on their own.

The same effect occurs outside comedy: eg. in one of our early parties, before we had come up with the idea of building our characters as a group, I made a character whose main concern was pondering the mysteries of their religion and fulfilling its virtues. Most of the other players characters were really ambivalent about that: I didn't get good interactions with them, because they didn't have a reason to care one way or the other.

(one character was an atheist of sorts, which actually makes a bit more sense in 4e, and I did get lots of good interactions with them over our friendly debates about the topics of faith)

V2Blast

@BESW Interesting. I think I kind of get it in principle but I feel like I'd only really get it by playing

vicky_molokh

I'm generally puzzled by how, despite religions having a huge role in various 'classical' RPG settings, religious questions seem to play very little role in actual parties in those settings.

kviiri

@vicky_molokh Heh, yep... there's some clear problems though, starting from the fact that it takes some mental gymnastics starting as a person used to modern-day religious debates to understand what sorts of issues might a world like those face.

Derpy

7:55 AM

@doppelgreener Start from there if you want to follow the full story but be advised it is pretty long. It has free BESW though, so it is well worth reading. For the short version instead look at this message

What kind of game is Fate?

An excerpt on Fate

Transcript for