TRPG General Chat

Shalvenay

00:14

hey there @KorvinStarmast

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay hullo, how are thee?

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast doing fine -- pondering a worldbuild-y question though

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay can I be of help?

I have poured myself a stiff drink, after having made the poor decision to answer this question at Aviation.SE.

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast maybe :) wondering how someone would go about teaching someone who's only ever commanded ships under sail or oar how to handle a ship under power

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay A lot of the principles are the same, but a huge problem to deal with is 'what is you energy source and what is your energy state?' Kind of like a fuel plan when you fly.

With oar and sail that additional planning concern isn't an issue. You also have to teach a new risk management scheme for dealing with weather. Powered ships have a different problem from sailing ships who have a different problem from oared ships.

Shalvenay

00:20

@KorvinStarmast the weather is a good point, yes

I wonder if it'd have more tactical impacts as well?

BESW

Here's an article about the reverse.

The evolution of naval hygiene from sail to steam.

@Shalvenay This book looks useful.

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay Tactical use of the weather gage was huge in Nelson's victories. the weather is a huge tactical piece of any sea battle under sail; for oared ships, some weather renders battle utterly moot. Lepanto as well, which was a combination of oars and sail.

BESW

KorvinStarmast

@BESW there were some ships sunk by Ram in the US civil war, if I recall correctly. (Or a combination of ram/explosive charge).

Shalvenay

00:36

@KorvinStarmast yeah, Nelson would recognize pretty well some of the tactical uses of weather in more modern naval battles as well (the Battle off Samar comes to mind with the Johnston ducking in and out of squall weather)

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay AFK making dinner ...

Ben

01:12

BESW

Ben

Hehe. Humour is fun.

3

How goeth the day

BESW

Blaaaaah.

you?

Ben

I'm yet to decide. I was late to work due to the public transport system, but I also got my Tax Return... then when I got into work my job was to update our EDMS finally (I have been wanting to for weeks now), but when I got in, the provider had not given me the serialisation information.

So, 6 of one, half dozen of the other?

I have coffee though. Which is good

BESW

01:42

Coffee is good.

There's a new episode of Doctor Who today, which is good.

Ben

I unfortunately do not have access to normal tv - I have no antennae for my TV

You'd think by now they'd have them built in

BESW

iTunes season pass!

This time around, Auntie Beeb gave up trying to stagger Doctor Who releases so British viewers would get first dibs, and the episodes are just released on all the platforms everyone all at once.

nitsua60

@BESW In the Elizabeth I video, do you know what the material is that the letter-locker is applying to the "lacing" at the very end?

BESW

01:57

Not sure.

[watches again]

nitsua60

[mental note: place my grandfather's MIT seal prominently visible in all instructional videos I make]

Miniman

@Ben You're not missing much.

BESW

> Common adhesives include beeswax, shellac, and other resins; plant starches; gelatins; and pressure-sensitive or heat-sensitive synthetic materials. Clay and mud are used similarly in earlier examples of document security. (source)

nitsua60

Clay--nice!

BESW

They also made little disks of dried starch, which you could wet, apply, press, and then when they dried they bonded to the paper.

This is the precursor to those golden star-seals on fancy "official" documents.

Because the wafers were often stamped while wet, and could be any color you wanted.

Ben

02:19

On a separate note - has anyone played the Mass Effect RPG?

Ben

02:42

I also need to buff my Minotaur Storm Barb to level 20, with several uncommon, rare and very rare items

Mike Q

Mass Effect has minotaurs? Or minotaur storms?

Ben

@MikeQ I wish. Lol

nitsua60

@MikeQ Yes, but they're barbed so they tend to stick around a while.

Tough to get them out of your hair/clothes.

Ben

The Uni near me is hosting a one-off lvl 20 campaign

@nitsua60 Just make sure you don't step on any. Yeesh

nitsua60

Gonna need pliers to get that out. And probably a teatnus shot.

Miniman

03:02

@Ben Which one?

Ben

Ok, personal opinion - 19 Barb/1 Fighter, or 20 Barb (to get Primal Champion/Unlimited Rage)?

@Miniman Umm... It uses d6's if that helps (Not fate)?

Miniman

@Ben I haven't played it, but it's useful for anyone trying to answer the question to know which one you mean.

Ben

True. Tbh I was not aware there was more than one haha

"Unofficial ME D6 LeDition"

nitsua60

What does Ftr 1 get you--just Action Surge, right? And Second Wind?

Heavy Armor proficiency?

No, not action surge. Just a Fighting Style and Second Wind.

Ben

@nitsua60 Simple and martial Weapons and shields, armour prof (all), Fighting style and Second Wind

Miniman

03:10

@Ben You only get all armour profs if you take it as your first level.

nitsua60

Sorry--I mean what it gets you that the barbarian doesn't already have. That's just Second Wind, Fighting Style, maybe Heavy Armor (if you trade saves).

Ben

@Miniman Well that doesn't matter either way lol. Barbs do better with no armour :P

nitsua60

Second wind vs. +40 hp seems like a no-brainer.

Heavy armor vs +2 to unarmored defense is a wash, likely.

Ben

@nitsua60 The Fighting style is the important one (which @Miniman pointed out)

nitsua60

So what fighting style are you looking at that +2 STR (to-hit, dmg) would compete with?

Ben

03:13

@nitsua60 Potentially Dual Weilding, just to support the weapon choice

nitsua60

(I.e. the +4 from Primal Champion bumping hit and damage by 2, assuming a Str-based weapon.)

Ben

2 handaxes

I do have a battleaxe as well.

nitsua60

So three attacks at +5, 1d6+5 on each, vs. two attacks at +7, 1d6+7 on each.

And more choices... this isn't crazy.

(That 40 hp and +2 AC is tough to give up, though, for 4.5 pts of dmg per turn.)

Ben

Two Weapon Fighting* not Dual Wielding.

nitsua60

(right)

Ben

03:16

@nitsua60 Is that depending on when you take the fighter level?

nitsua60

@Ben You only get the Strength and Constitution bumps to 24 (+2 to each modifier; retroactively giving you 40 more HP max and a +2 bump to unarmored defense) if you don't take any fighter level.

Ben

Oh right. Yeah

nitsua60

@Ben The sequencing only impacts proficient saves, heavy armor proficiency, and which skills you'd be picking from among.

Ben

Ok

nitsua60

@Ben I do like the visual of running in throwing two handaxes (Attack, bonus action off-hand attack), drawing battleaxe, and laying in with Extra Attack.

(Which probably works out better with the pure barbarian build than with the MC; if the bonus action attack only comes in during first round its modified damage is less important than the to-hit bump from strength-->24.)

Ben

03:22

@nitsua60 In all honesty I probably only go one level anyway

So I'd only get the Fighting Style and SW

nitsua60

What are your thoughts on 18/2? You'd be losing an ASI from barbarian, gaining Action Surge.

Ben

Hmm..

nitsua60

(I still think 20's hard to give up, but if you're multiclassing, I'm hard-pressed to pick between 19/1 and 18/2.)

(This, of course, is where I feel like class balance shows itself pretty well. It's soooo easy to keep going down this road and say "17/3 loses me barbarian indomitability but gets me either maneuvers or expanded critical (on top of my brutal crits)....")

(I think that argument peters out at "trade third brutal crit die to regain an ASI at ftr4.")

Ben

I think I'd limit it to 18/2... Can you throw weapons with TWF?

In all honesty, I am aiming for a PC with as much versatility as possible. So far my characters have all been just "I attack... Damage... OK turn over"

nitsua60

18

Q: Are you still two-weapon fighting if you've thrown one of your two weapons and are no longer holding it?

In this question we see that two-weapon fighting with darts is not possible because they are not melee weapons. Let's replace the darts in that scenario with daggers, which are valid light melee weapons for two-weapon fighting, and also have the thrown property. Two-weapon fighting says: ...

@Ben Sounds like Wz20 who's been obsessively collecting spells for years =)

Miniman

03:34

in The Back Room: Live Tabletop Games, Jul 19 '17 at 4:07, by Miniman

in HotDQ discussion (warning spoilers!), May 1 at 3:25, by Miniman

And now I'm back in the age-old loop. "Why not dip a level of Fighter for a Fighting Style?" "Hey, if you're losing a Bard level anyway, why not dip 2 levels of Paladin for a Fighting Style and Divine Smite?" "Hey, you don't want to lose those all-important ASIs! Better make it 4 levels!" "Hey, Aura of Protection is only 2 more levels of Paladin..." "For one more level you could get Aura of Warding! "You still don't want to lose ASIs, buddy. Better make it 8."

Ben

Neat

nitsua60

@Miniman I feel like casters have it differently, though, with spell levels.

Miniman

@nitsua60 Oh, absolutely.

nitsua60

Though slots work out okay as long as you're full-caster/full-caster. So I guess that actually gives you a couple of levels to play with before you start losing access to levels of spell. So we're back to capstone abilities &c.

Miniman

@nitsua60 Well, that and "now vs later" arguments.

BESW

04:37

Dungeons & Dragons (2000) - Deep Dive

►

kviiri

05:48

Mornin'

trogdor

06:10

good time of day to you too

doppelgreener

12:05

Good morning! o/

goodguy5

13:22

Happy Monday.

odd that that "have fun" question got a downvote

doppelgreener

@goodguy5 it looks like kind of a weird question to ask

kviiri

@goodguy5 Probably because its prior incarnation a few minutes ago was a bit poorly worded (and received)

doppelgreener

like ... when did games start asking us to have fun?

kviiri

As for happy Mondays, it's a very grim day here. So thick clouds and fog one could easily believe the sun never came up today.

goodguy5

@kviiri that doesn't seem like a good reason to downvote and seems to border on griefing (or whatever we call it).

kviiri

13:29

Stupid Barovia crossing in to our world.

@goodguy5 I never said it's a good reason, but it' certainly seems like a probable reason to me.

doppelgreener

Jun 16 '16 at 5:58, by BESW

I think it was Mxy who first told me (and I've since found my experience supports this) that a single downvote on an answer can be regarded as white noise from the cosmos.

but also "this question is not useful" is a legitimate subjective downvote reason

kviiri

I kinda agree with doppel's assessment but well, "have fun" doesn't seem to always be as obvious as one'd think.

More commonly, I'd guess, people are really trying to have fun but are clueless about what is fun and what is not.

Derpy

@nitsua60 think you should be in the top 25... so... -10 to cheese I guess?

goodguy5

I don't know if anyone saw it, but that one question about a freezing system originally said "aritc" instead of "arctic"

And I tried way harder than I should have trying to figure that word out.

doppelgreener

arthritic

goodguy5

13:40

@doppelgreener the thought crossed my mind

BESW

I recently got a downvote for "D&D worldbuilding is not an accurate sociological model."

goodguy5

well, I guess that statement is true....

I actually feel like that arctic system question isn't THAT convoluted or intrusive.

kviiri

@BESW You better wear that as a sign of pride

I once wrote a very controversial post on a video game forum that supports up- and down votes. I got a very even score with far more votes than typical. A friend who also visits said forum said he was impressed, because "lots of upvotes means you're just pandering to the masses. A real controversial post means you're actually making a strong case enough to rouse the detractors".

goodguy5

we're all very proud :)

I just realized that you can't die from exposure in that freezing system system (unless you're naked)

also, side note.... that is a sweet map

doppelgreener

13:59

Would you get stuck at 1 hp?

goodguy5

haha. no. You can't get to 20 if you're wearing any clothing at all

I assumed it meant "you lose 60% of your max hp per day"

so, you'd be downed on day 2

hrm.... actually

that's not right.

100 % life

Day 1: lose 60%, rest : at 40%
Day 2: gain 50%, lose 60%, rest : at 30%
Day 3: gain 50%, lose 60%, rest : at 20%
Day 4: gain 50%, lose 60%, rest : at 10%
Day 5: gain 50%, lose 60%, rest : at 0% - downed

Then I assume you start making death saves.

If you succeed, I guess you're stable that day? Then you gain 50% and lose 60% again the next morning.

doppelgreener

Seems a little glitchy :(

goodguy5

I mean.... yea.

you're not going to last 5+ days naked swimming in a blizzard atop a mountain

and not to mention, I think that a Periapt of Wound Closure makes you immune to the elements of this game.

doppelgreener

Hot take: you could do better than this system by just introducing a "really cold" and "freezing" environment condition and ensuring people dress appropriately for each condition.

goodguy5

lol yea.

I agree that it's not good and I wouldn't want it at my table.

kviiri

14:09

I'm not exactly sure what the desired experience of the freezing thing is, gameplay-wise. Is it supposed to be a resource drain, narrative tension or what?

Rubiksmoose

14:21

@goodguy5 which question is this?

goodguy5

5

Q: Where and when did "Have Fun" enter the gaming books?

We figured out Where and when did "the GM is always right" get codified first? to the early days, or more precisely, it predates the main bulk of AD&D and can be pinned to have shown up in the 1970s. This question is about the general rule Have Fun. We find it nowadays in a lot of games. Some ...

history-of-gaming

Rubiksmoose

What does that have to do with fun?

Carcer

time to update my profile

goodguy5

whoops. had the wrong one in my clipboard

Rubiksmoose

ahhhh ok that makes much more sense lol

goodguy5

14:28

I wish bolphgolph could join us in chat.

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 Agreed. I do hate the fact that there is a barrier to entry to chat even though I know it has very good reasons for being there.

goodguy5

@Rubiksmoose Maybe if there were some sort of like "invite waiver" or something?

Are you precluded from chat even if it's opened on your question?

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 Mods, I believe, can grant permission or room owners.

@goodguy5 I was just wondering that as well.

Carcer

that'd really suck

goodguy5

also, it's really bugging me that everything on that freezing chart says "isolated" instead of "insulated"

Rubiksmoose

14:33

heh.

goodguy5

and is "modifyer" right in uk-english?

Rubiksmoose

Also, I'm really curious. does OP expect the PCs to be changing clothes often enough to justify an entire system around it? Or that they would be going there without the proper clothes to begin with?

goodguy5

My curiosity is if it impacts armor.

like... can you not wear armor and be well atop the mountain?

Rubiksmoose

The entire system could be simplified if you just assumed proper equipment and/or had a general penalty for not being equipped properly.

Carcer

"modifyer" is not correct english of any kind

goodguy5

14:37

I was pretty sure but English gets real weird.

doppelgreener

yeah it's "modifier"

Carcer

english does have a lot of weird

goodguy5

@doppelgreener huh... you were right. You do get stuck at 1hp

Rubiksmoose

Out of curiousity @doppelgreener do you really think that Q is POB? I think unclear, but maybe I'm not thinking about it enough

doppelgreener

@kviiri So I remember recently Mike Mearls tweeting about how he creates features by adding complexity until they reach the breaking point, and then dials back to just before that point. It's not a philosophy I agree with, but it's one that crops up in a lot of homebrew. Especially when something "isn't simulated enough". Ironically adding spreadsheets and calculations usually simulates things worse than much simpler systems.

goodguy5

14:40

can we get one person to upvote bolph's question to bump him up to 20 rep?

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose Take a look at the first revision if you haven't already. That one was POB. Now the question is just closed while people address its issues, and will get reopened if/when people think it's workable and start voting to reopen it.

@goodguy5 done

goodguy5

thanks, boo

doppelgreener

:)

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener Gotcha. Good call. I did not think to check it.

goodguy5

@BolphGolph

dunno if that works or not

doppelgreener

14:42

It won't work until they've actually visited this chat room. If they don't show up in the @ autocomplete, they can't get pinged.

But I'll use my diamond moderator superping.

@Bolphgolph Hi! There's some folks in here interested in talking with you about your freezing mechanics thingy whenever you feel like dropping by.

Rubiksmoose

I just imagined @doppel using the electronic version of Aquaman's creature summoning power (specifically from Brave and the Bold).

NautArch

@doppelgreener yeah, not sure about why someone would ask when games needed to be enjoyed.

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose How'd that one work in Brave and the Bold?

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch To be fair, this is something that people do need to be told sometimes. It isn't completely unreasonable to ask when it was codified.

@doppelgreener Same as in the rest IIRC I just liked the visual.

KorvinStarmast

Philosophical question: do you need a rule to tell you to have fun in order to have fun? I think this will be an essay question, worth 40 points on the exam.

Rubiksmoose

14:48

Hand to temples and thought circles coming out and the whole deal.

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast y e s

cannot comply with commands that do not exist

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Really? They may be told they need to have fun, but that's more of a personal issue rather than a general directive.

KorvinStarmast

@goodguy5 I see you beat me to it

goodguy5

;-)

Carcer

I mean, given that D&D evolved out of tabletop wargames and such competitive games, I could see in the early stages of the hobby that this was a distinction which needed to be made

KorvinStarmast

14:49

@doppelgreener Heh, as an essay question answer, that might not get a passing mark. but I grinned.

NautArch

@Carcer I dunno - people still enjoy competition. Whether it's in the winning, competing, or training - they do it because they enjoy it. Not including outliers who are forced to do it.

Carcer

"we're all here to have fun" is different to "I am here to have fun, by winning"

KorvinStarmast

@Carcer I'd say that it evolved as much from a year or so of free play in blackmoor as much as it evolved from table top battles.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I meant to say that people sometimes need to be reminded that the intent of the game is to have fun. I'm kind of confused what you are saying here because yes an individual person's confusion on the matter would indeed be an individual problem. Unless of course that person is the DM and is subjecting an entire group to un-funness.

KorvinStarmast

I have fun playing Hearthstone; it's a competition. Likewise with golf.

NautArch

14:51

@Rubiksmoose I'm saying that there was never a time where someone picked up a game and looked for it to not provide enjoyment.

Carcer

I'm sure you do, I'm not saying they're inherently exclusive

nitsua60

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, we can add explicit read-/write-access for any user. Easier just to upvote, though =)

goodguy5

I kept trying to enjoy Hearthstone. But I kept realizing it wasn't for me.

NautArch

@Carcer but that' a table issue. How do you have fun is different than I'm not looking for fun at all.

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose Oh! Then, yes. It is probably like that.

KorvinStarmast

14:51

@NautArch Yes. And when it isn't fun, stop playing. (Happened to me with golf in 1988. It was over a year before I returned to it ...)

Carcer

just, you know, I've watched plenty of those kinds of games where it becomes obvious not everyone at the table is necessarily having fun

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 But then we don't get to perform mod power abuse that way. :'(

nitsua60

really? Thought you just upvoted and superpinged =)

KorvinStarmast

@Carcer A product of social dynamics. I have been to a LOT of parties where I had little to no fun. (And no few of them were related to work, or I was there since we had been invited and had a social obligation to fulfill)

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Sure, but usually after the game begins is when that reminder becomes helpful since all manner of un-fun mentalities might creep in.

Carcer

14:53

@KorvinStarmast a product of whoever happens to be winning at the time, too

KorvinStarmast

@Carcer In golf, I can play a hard, good match and regardless of who wins, can have a good time. I've not been that good at it for a couple of years, but I find your view on this a bit narrow. there's a thing called sportsmanship. Do they still teach that?

Carcer

@KorvinStarmast please give me the benefit of the doubt. I'm not arguing that it's impossible to enjoy a competition even if you lose

KorvinStarmast

@Carcer OK, thank you, one cannot be sure in text based communication.

Carcer

what I am saying is that for many people they don't enjoy competitions when they're losing

Rubiksmoose

For example, everyone who sits down at a table (let's just assume) is expecting or hoping to have fun. This makes sense. However, when the DM turns a campaign into a brutal slog (as an example) or when a DM/player is being a crazy rules lawyer to the point of diminishing fun it is always helpful to have a directive to point to that can recenter the group around a common goal: having fun.

goodguy5

14:56

AND, I have a "meeting". have fun with bolph. mx opened a chat for them

KorvinStarmast

@Carcer In fact, I think that learning good sportsmanship when young will help people enjoy RPGs. Hmmm, you have me thinking ... and that's a good thing. As to not enjoying losing, indeed, it can make something less fun. (Particularly if one is playing a lot less well than one knows one can play ... see golf example above).

Rubiksmoose

@nitsua60 @doppelgreener if I opened a chatroom in a comment thread under a question, would OP automatically gain access to that? Or is that still locked behind a rep wall?

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose Social dynamics. "Why are we here" is sometimes lost

Carcer

@KorvinStarmast and particularly if playing against someone who's beating you and isn't a stellar example of sportsmanship

KorvinStarmast

yeah, that can be unfun.

nitsua60

14:58

@Rubiksmoose Using the "comments are not for... would you like to...?" link?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Right, but the general expectation for any game is that you're doing it to have fun.

Carcer

I think RPGs are probably a good tool for teaching sportsmanship in the first place, come to it

nitsua60

152

Q: Invite low rep users to participate in chat

I'm aware of the preference for 'general answers to general questions' attitude on SO, and wholeheartedly agree that questions that are focused on specific, one-time issues are not as valuable to the site. However, where an issue is potentially useful but getting to the heart of it is taking som...

feature-request chat

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I guess i'm saying it's a general life rule and it's not tied to RPGs, sports, or anything else. The question seems silly to me because of that.

nitsua60

@Rubiksmoose I believe not =(

Rubiksmoose

15:00

@NautArch Er... yes. I completely agree with this. My point is that it is good to have that printed in a rulebook.

@nitsua60 Alas, I kind of suspected as much.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Ah, gotcha. Agreed. It's good to have, but it's not a good question to ask.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Eh, not the worst, but I don't think that is a worthwhile argument to have lol

nitsua60

It's the sort of thing that would be nice to have, but it's such an edge concern that I doubt more than half an hour of dev-time would ever make sense to dedicate to it, and I assume the amount of dev-time required to make any change is much greater than that =\

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose hahaha. not exactly a high bar.

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose New users should be focused on writing excellent questions and answers, not conversation. That's why you must have 50 rep to post comments everywhere. – Robert Harvey Jul 29 '11 at 15:58 That attitude still exists.

nitsua60

15:02

@NautArch with notable exceptions. Isn't there a video game where you're in a hospital with a dying spouse?

No matter what you do the spouse dies... you just "play" with how you spend that hour of "game" time.

NautArch

@nitsua60 maybe, but folks are likely still playing it because they are enjoying the experience. You can enjoy something that isn't happyfuntime.

Rubiksmoose

It is at least interesting from a historical standpoint to see when this was codified. 5e can easily be seen as lowering a lot of bars to entry (or at least trying to) and I am actually a little surprised to find that sentiment codified in the 1e version honestly (having the reputation of being a lot more "hardcore" and "brutal" than modern "kinder" RPGs). But that is just my personal take on it. And important to note as one who has never played any edition older than 3.5.

KorvinStarmast

@Carcer Yeah, that's where you had my brain going ...

Bolphgolph

@doppelgreener @doppelgreener oh hi :) I didn't know this chat existed. yes there are many typos in my script. I am not a native speaker. If there are still questions please pin me.

Carcer

fun has a lot forms

NautArch

15:04

@Carcer exactly. and it's very personal.

nitsua60

@NautArch Hmm... I don't know about "enjoy." I can appreciate and even seek an experience that isn't enjoyable. (I don't enjoy A Grief Observed, but I still reread it each decade.) But this is obviously an edge case, speaking of dev-time =)

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch "Fun" might not be the most accurate metric of all games since it does imply some sense of joy and happiness. I can't think of a words that encapsulates all of them though.

NautArch

@nitsua60 I think it's a different type of enjoyment. If you really didn't enjoy it at some level, I don't think you'd keep rereading it.

Rubiksmoose

I mean at this point we are entirely arguing about terminology here to be clear. Enjoyment by definition entails some sort of happiness or..well joy at particiapting.

Carcer

I've played games on ridiculous difficulties (and had a very frustrating and unfun time while doing so) purely for the purpose of getting the dumb steam achievement that says I did it

nitsua60

15:07

@Rubiksmoose Yes, but do you enjoy the argument?

=D

Rubiksmoose

@nitsua60 hahaha. That depends on how long it goes ;) usually there is an inverse correlation there.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I don't think happiness is necessarily the definition. Taking enjoyment (getting pleasure, keen satisfaction) is more the definition. Some people get enjoyment from feeling things that other swould not say are happiness.

nitsua60

@Derpy excellent! Now we'll see if the overlords approve my plan to ~~take over the world~~ time-share the cheese-board.

KorvinStarmast

Hmmm, a long standing quirk .. thanks for the link, nits, and it's good to know that if a mod has some time there is a work around.

kviiri

@doppelgreener Haha, yes :D

Rubiksmoose

15:13

@NautArch fair enough.

kviiri

Simulationism as a first prio is a common RPG blunder

I don't mean that simulationism (or realism, to be more precise) is necessarily bad, but it is overrepresented as a core value

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri Yep. but it took the industry/hobby a while to figure that out.

And of course, each group will have a different taste for how much, or how little, they like.

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast yup. It's just that the assumption too often seems to be that realism is always the goal, or that it goes without saying everyone wants or needs more.

There are certainly groups that will enjoy as realistic gameplay as possible, but I would guess there are even more groups that are trying to get there just because they think that's the point.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch thanks for the Divine Sense tip. That is a great comparison. Sidenote: am I being silly or does the other answer really not support their RAI part at all?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose It doesn't. It's a reasonable houesrule, but that's it.

Divine Sense is also kinda weird in terms of a mechanic.

If anything, my sense is that they nerfed these spells/abilities and the intent is the actual limitations in the wording.

Rubiksmoose

15:20

@NautArch Yeah I'd probably allow it, but we have actually been playing it as RAW in my game.

@NautArch Honestly, the wording seems very clear. The only point where confusion comes in is when people are expecting it to work differently I think.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose right because it seems underpowered (for both the spell and the ability)

doppelgreener

@Bolphgolph I think they're supposed to get access to that one...

kviiri

It also bugs me everytime when people say "I mostly care about the story so I don't really care what mechanics we use"

Carcer

@kviiri there's definitely a market for that kind of realism in games, but I don't think it makes a lot of sense when you don't have a computer which is taking care of that

I will happily install a mod for Skyrim which tracks how much protein I'm eating and I'll play dwarf fortress and marvel at the health tracking of individual fingers

I have no interest in having to manage that level of detail in a tabletop rpg

Derpy

@nitsua60 ? what? I think they would just send you the cheese-board and be fine with that. Whatever you do afterwards is your choice.

What may actually happen is them being amused if you actually posted the pictures of the "Travels of the Board"

kviiri

15:29

@Carcer Yuh. And indeed, the market may exist but it's not the objective gold standard of gaming

Nor is realism necessary conductive to good stories

Xirema

@Carcer I continue to be astonished and infuriated that every time there's a Minecraft mod that adds new food and farming options, they never add a nutrition system to the game.

"Congratulations at adding 100 new foods to the game. Now let me just find the one that restores the most Hunger + Saturation, and ignore the other 99 for the rest of the game"

kviiri

@Xirema Haha :D

Creatures was one of the games with an actually deep nutrition system

It tracks several nutrients along with a separate sense of hunger (multiple types in later installments)

Once a mutation caused a Norn of mine to never grow hungry. It still starved, because never feeling hungry doesn't mean your body doesn't need carb and protein intake.

Cheating a bit, I "resurrected" it and taught it to eat by rewarding it for doing so.

Bolphgolph

@goodguy5 Credit where credit is due. I didn't draw the map myself i've got it from a drawing tutorial. I wanted to draw it myself but It looked like a potato :) source: online-tabletop.com/art/custom-map

Carcer

@kviiri flashbacking to Black & White, teaching a giant tiger to NEVER EVER POOP

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri It certainly helped me that i started in Chess and Wargaming and boardgaming ... abstractions abound in those formats.

Delioth

15:44

@Carcer Fun fact: I found a perfect condition B&W disk in my local bookstore and promptly bought it because it's fantastic.

Before realizing I don't have a disk drive on either of my computers

Carcer

hah

I still have a physical copy knocking about somewhere myself

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri Amen to that. reasonable primary world with a bit of secondary world. easier suspension of disbelief.

Delioth

On the other hand, my wife's laptop still has one, so I'll probably just rip it on there and then transfer it over

Carcer

I can still remember the damn song those aspiring mariners on the first island sing

"oooh / we've got this notion / that we'd quite like to sail the ocean / so we're building a big boat to leave here for good / now we're not keen on sinking / so we're all sitting here a-thinking / cause we built it too big and we've run out of wood"

kviiri

My brain catches lyrics like crazy. Sadly, also incomplete ones

They go to "loop until you figure out how it went" category

Carcer

15:47

also featuring the incredible line of dialogue "there's a lot of things you can do with a sheep"

Delioth

@Carcer Out of spite I gave them only pigs

kviiri

Unrelated: my SO started playing Minecraft and watching her hyperoptimizations was so painful to me that I installed Factorio just to balance it out with a game where optimization is the point

Enjoying it so far

NautArch

16:03

Just looked up the latest Gentleman Bastards book to find it still hasn't been released :(

user357094

@kviiri Man, I love that game, but I have the problem I always run into with grindy games. Once I've done the first grind and figured out all the things I did wrong, I never want to go back through the grind to correct my mistakes :/

Carcer

@AVeryLargeBear did you ever get to the point where you had construction drones?

user357094

@Carcer I did, but never got fully into them. Life got in the way right after I got there.

Carcer

because once you've really got going in factorio you're not building anything by hand. You're setting blueprints for everything and letting an army of construction robots do it

also destruction blueprints to remove all the old garbage you built

user357094

@Carcer Yeah, I probably could go back to that save and redo everything, but idk, doesn't feel quite right.

user357094

16:09

Like re-writing history or something

Carcer

watching the robots tear up my terrible old jumbled assembly lines and replace them with shiny, orderly new ones is personally immensely satisfying

user357094

@Carcer That does sound satisfying. Maybe I'll spin it up after work today :)

goodguy5

Thanks, @Rubiksmoose

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 haha thanks for catching on to my intention

(posting in the wrong chat)

NautArch

16:37

Hmm, was I wrong to roll the question edit back?

goodguy5

@NautArch technically no, but I wouldn't have.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch usually that kind of note seems better for a comment then an update to the question.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Hmm, iterative question. We should suggest, perhaps, a new question to account for the dex dump.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast i think i tried (Maybe poorly) to do that

kviiri

@AVeryLargeBear haha, I see what you mean

KorvinStarmast

16:45

@NautArch Yeah, just noticed that comment. Your roll back was in that case a good call, I up ga dooted the comment.

kviiri

@AVeryLargeBear It hasn't been as bad as I thought, tho. My first factory went so organic messy so fast I hadn't had time to actually build it up, so cleaning the mess was fast. The replacement factory was already so much better that I had unlocked the mass construction bots

They don't make everything easy, but at least copypasting designs and mass removal gets quicker

Carcer

yeah, the amount of space you have to start dedicating just to smelting iron/copper and making wire/gear wheels/circuit boards is kind of boggling

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I have a feeling you're getting downvotes because your answer is limiting the functionality

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I'm assuming so lol

It is also now a HNQ so that is great.

I did add a RAF section to try to make those people happy. I think it is a pretty reasonable thing to allow honestly.

And have experience with doing so.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose same. I also think not having divine sense work through total cover is also kinda silly.

Rubiksmoose

16:55

@NautArch It really is.

NautArch

what's frustrating now in my paladin campaign is that we're in hell and the DM has basically turned off that feature for me.

In that there's so many things setting it off that I get nothing but noise

which i kinda get, but that's also kinda cheap.

Rubiksmoose

I guess I can see how that would happen thematically, but that is still frusterating.

@NautArch Honestly what bugs me most is that the other question is getting upvotes purely for saying "it was intended to allow it" without any support (despite saying the same as me up top).

kviiri

@Carcer Yup. Amazing how easy it is to run out of space when it's the most abundant resource in the game :)

goodguy5

what game?

kviiri

@goodguy5 Factorio

goodguy5

16:59

ah

Rubiksmoose

oh man, I'm pretty close to my [spells] gold badge.

kviiri

Wow

You'd be the first to own it I think

goodguy5

too bad you can't get the [tiny-hut] badge

nitsua60

Nov 9 at 14:34, by Anaphory

@nitsua60 Then, in a few decades, when this happens again, we can win another cheeseboard with the travel fotos of a cheeseboard…

user357094

@kviiri Miniman has it as of Oct 16

Sdjz

17:02

@kviiri Actually some people have it already

Rubiksmoose

Yup it looks like I could potentially be lucky number 6. Though it appears that I'll be among good company lol.

kviiri

@AVeryLargeBear wow

It's not a tag I would've expected people to have

Rubiksmoose

I didn't expect that I would have been even close to it lol. I guess I gravitate towards questions about spells though

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose yup, especially when the intent really does not seem to be that

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 hahaha yeah that is a huge shame. That is clearly the most elusive and sought after potential badge though.

NautArch

17:08

@nitsua60 should I meta what to do with this quesiton where they're including update builds to their question?

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I would probably do it? If they add it back again then definitely.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose yeah, i'll give it one more chance to stick. If the edit war continues, i'll put something up

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I threw a flag on it so the mods were aware as well.

Ben

17:32

Morning all

Xirema

DAE this sounds like a party full of "My Guy Syndrome", and blame isn't necessarily appropriate to direct at the DM? rpg.stackexchange.com/q/135376/42386

Ben

Afternoon for some

Xirema

Because that was my gut reaction to reading it.

NautArch

@Xirema yup yup

howdy @Ben

@Xirema definitely a table of MyGuys.

Xirema

Like, a DM sending out flying creatures at level 5 definitely raises eyebrows, but at that point, the party does have options for dealing with it.

NautArch

17:34

@Xirema unfortunately, i don't think the DM did anything wrong here. They're not there to manage other players' actions.

It sounds more like the table dynamics for the one-off weren't known/agreed on.

Xirema

@NautArch Yeah, that's my general instinct. I know from (relatively recent) experience how frustrating flying creatures can be if the party lacks proper ranged power, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

NautArch

@Xirema My group, now at level 19/20, are awful against flying or invisible creatures. DM throws us those types of encounters at times.

Xirema

@NautArch My paladin bought a pack of Javelins so that ranged encounters wouldn't fornicate us up so badly anymore.

Carcer

the DM does have a position of social responsibility in the game - it is somewhat on them to try and make sure that everyone's in the same page about how to play the game

on the same page, rather

NautArch

@Xirema I've got javelins, but even then they're generally in disadvantage range.

I opt to do more control/support activities in those battles

@Carcer yeah, but when everyone but one person seems to be on the same page, it's hard to stop mid-session and realign.

and we don't know the other group dynamics in play

Carcer

17:44

well there was apparently one other character who wasn't obviously evil but he didn't have any way to help besides carry the guy around

NautArch

Trish just did a great edit on that question, though :)

Carcer

to be honest if I had had that experience I would probably have assumed that most of the room didn't want me, as a person, there

NautArch

@Carcer yeah :(

We've played some pretty awful characters with my group, but even then keeping the party alive was always a prime motivator.

Carcer

yeah

nitsua60

@NautArch ^^

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