@trogdor Yeah, one of the few things I liked about 3.x, besides the massive effort to organize the system, was the return of the negative HP and bleeding out from 1e.

But I didn't like that a bunch of 2e material I had gotten at a garage sale was rendered moot, or so I thought.

I remember one weird event in 4e where someone threw a spear at my unconscious body, which made me make an immediate death save. I rolled a nat 20 and woke up from it. No idea if that was actually by the rules or if I should've actually just gotten an auto death fail.

That's a hell of a wake up call! Spear to the face! :)

@CTWind that was by the rules

I can see the RP now: Ya know, I was gonna die, but now that you hit me with a spear, I am just mad!" It's Clobberin Time!

Again, I liked 4e death saves because they were actually intended to give you a chance not to die

3.5 would have had you just die from something like that

Yeah, it gives your party a chance to save you, which I think promotes good team play

It was actually a teammate's spear :-P (DM was the kind where nat 1s did bad things, and they critically missed a nearby enemy and hit me instead)

4e is very much about good team play

I remember enjoying the shaman.

@CTWind lol

@CTWind rofl. We had a lot of "shoot into melee, oops you hit Korvin again" in 1e

That's one thing Diablo I replicated nicely about D&D: if the rogue shot into combat, it was not uncommon in modem days to be aiming somewhere else (due to latency/lag) and hit the fighter.

Hilarity then ensues ...

Was there friendly fire in D1 multiplayer? I played D2 first, then tried D1 and got frustrated at the lack of running relative to D2's move speed :-P

And then that time the sorcerer set up a wall of fire while I am around the corner with my rogue, and I was instatoasted.

Yes, friendly fire in D 1 was funny as heck, or so I thought..

But I played with friends. In public games, too many PK's and griefers.

Even in D2 that was true, but at least you had a brief moment of warning since they had to go to town to PVP flag.

@CTWind (Played far too much D2, according to my wife).

There were annoying hacks around that ... D2 really was a field day for griefers for the first year or two.

D2 carried me through most of middle/high school.

Pretty much until WoW came out.

cheers, and happy gaming

I've been giving Path of Exile a shot recently, too. Parts of it gives me the impression of "What if we made a game that is based on D2, but went the opposite direction from D3 in how we're diverging from that base?". (Not that that's inherently good or bad)

@CTWind how is Path of Exile anyway?

A lot of people have been playing that recently apparently

It's not bad. Definitely feels super strongly inspired by D2. Very fine-grained talent system (uhh, for a possibly relevant point of reference, think Final Fantasy 10's sphere grid, with a lot of points being passive fillers of 10 in a basic stat). Near-classless; skills come from gems you put in your armor.

Class is essentially where you start on the grid, but the grid is the same for everyone.

Oh that actually sounds really great

I liked that level system in FF10

To me, a bit complicated, at least starting off- feels like if you haven't planned out your character fully, you're probably gonna end up being pretty weak. No full/free respec.

Not necessarily bad if that kind of depth is what you're looking for- were this my high school or college days, it'd be right up my alley.

Of that last bit though

I don't like it if I can't change my mind on a build later

They give you 'respec points' as quest rewards and you get a set amount of those, but that just lets you take a single point out.

Then I think there's recipes to make them later on.

Ah

So it's not 100% locked in, but lots of effort in respeccing.

Not as bad

I guess if I really want something completely different then I could make a new game

It actually sounds a little like what I might look for in an RPG

Talent tree is here. The class dropdown is in the bottom; Witch/ranger/marauder are the core three, and the other 3 are varying degrees of hybrid. (Scion is 'full hybrid', starting neutral in all stats and in the center of the grid. Other three are hybrids of 2 of the 'core' classes.)

@BESW Wow... that's impressive :D

@CTWind cool I like that

@BESW they used those to play the Cello

I need maps...

I've decided to go all out and write up a book(let) about the Diablo campaign. Written up the backstory, the setting, written about the NPCs... Now I'm getting into the actual campaign. Encounters and so on.

And one thing I need is maps

lol

What kind of maps?

Maps of Tristram, and possible dungeon maps to help players and the DM understand the layouts

As @nits and @korvin explained in our encounter

A search for "Diablo maps" turns up a lot of good-looking results.

Yeah. I'm not too worried about the dungeon maps... got maps for days there haha

But there are some that I need amore rigid format for. Specifically the Town itself, and the first level of the cathedral

Are you looking for Diablo-specific maps of these things, or just maps of towns and cathedrals?

@BESW The Tristram Map needs to be Diablo specific, but the cathedral can be just "A Cathedral"

I have the idea of a floor plan in mind, for the cathedral at least

You could search "cathedral blueprints" or "schematics," or just grab any of the maps from wizards.com's old archive of all the 3.5 maps they ever published.

Oddly enough googling "Cathedral wizards 3.5" brings up Minecraft first..

Art & Map Gallery Archive

Map-a-Week archive

Oh, yeah I found it lol. Just thought it was funny that Minecraft came up in the google search.

Is there any "keyword search" function in this?

Nope! Wizards ain't that kind.

Excellent. Forcing me to peruse in detail.

That may sound sarcastic, and it is, but only because it is equally sincere haha

But searching "cathedral AND map site:archive.wizards.com/" is, you know, helpful.

You can also scroll thumbnails here.

And behold, a Cathedral of Hope and Doom.

Also try "church" and "temple" keywords.

@trogdor If you do decide to give PoE a go, let me know - having tried to get into it both with and without an experienced player guiding me, the difference is fairly significant.

@Miniman I know a few folks who have played, let me do some checking cc @trogdor

Hmm, a place that used to have good contributors. Worth a look

OK, it's just that I know those folks from WoW and other games, so I think their advice for @trogdor might be helpful, but if you will be his mentor, all the better.

@KorvinStarmast working my way through all the 5e questions now. In reverse vote order.

Sorry, I think I came off the wrong way there.

No worries to me, I figured you are being helpful to troggy

@Miniman ok fair enough, it doesn't have like, a tutorial or something about leveling up huh?

Um, it appears that the post I linked to has links to good builds. PoE isn't a game I chose. My current "goof around like playing diablo" vice is diablo III.

I played a few games like this, most recently a brief stint of

Torchlight

I heard that Torchlight was good fun. Might give it a look ... we'll see.

It wasn't my copy of the game though so brief was the opperative word

But I liked it

@KorvinStarmast yeah the people who recommended it to me were almost all Diablo fans

Do I dare get sucked into yet another vortex? twitches a bit

Lol

Ok, off I go, best wishes to all

@trogdor Ehhhhh, sort of?

@trogdor I tried a few different things in this field too. PoE is definitely the one I got the most enjoyment out of, even if I put almost as much time into D3 and Grim Dawn.

I admit I like the way the skill tree looks, but it also does look intimidating

It's a lot easier once you get used to it XD

Sounds fair yeah

hello new to the site and i love it so far . just got informed of this chat room

whats your opinion on taking minor illusion and racial cantrip from high-elf on a rogue lvl 1 on my for arance trickster =o

as*

Hi and welcome

thanks !

oh this is for dnd 5e

Ah ok

i suppose this chat room is for all games not just DND haha

I was going to ask just that

It is

sweeet

Lots of tabletop RPG'S

i bet

they are good fun

Though we do stray off topic regularly, but when someone wants to chat on topic most regulars are good at moving other discussion elsewhere

@varusnobleknife indeed they are

just got invited to join a DND group from my good friend who i work with. i jumped in head first on that opportunity hahah

Cool

I don't know much about 5e, but maybe someone can answer your question

yeah

wait i just read above chat

is their a diablo table top game?

@Ben is running a,.... I think 5e Diablo tabletop

?

@varusnobleknife Not that I am aware of, but I am creating a 5e variant for it

=

=O

Yeah

thats really cool man

That's what I meant

played D2 for years

I think that's the common consensus haha

hahah right

d3 was good but cant beat D2 imo

I'm having fun with it. It actually all started because a friend of mine made a similar game for All Flesh Must Be eaten - it was a modern-day variation of it.

shwweeettt

sounds fun

I should actually find someone that has a 5e pre-written campaign so I can get some direction on how to build my booklet.

so that 5e version of Diablo is it more just straight up slaying stuff? because that all i remember in Diablo hahah

Well, yeah that was the main problem. But I've got a few little things I want to add to the gameplay to switch it up a little. The "Corruption" system I'm making is the main thing

@trogdor I'm like 3-4 days into it, and I'm starting to get used to how I have to think about it but I'm also entirely unfamiliar with whatever the meta/trap selections are so still worried about that. I'm working on a piercing Kinetic Blast dual-wand build because I'm having fun with the shotgun-effect when enemies are clustered together.

yea throw a few frozen orbs in the crowd and ice em all hahha

@CTWind it sounds very satisfying to pull off

piercing kinetic blast sounds strong ! well see you guys around keep it up with your Diablo 5e game. that is going to blow up . wouldnt see why anyone wouldnt want to play it !

hahhah i know right

PoE didn't quite grab me when I tried it. Still, my build was fairly ridiculous. Melee attacks were turned into AoE and did extra elemental damage, which on overkill would also become AoE damage. As that effect was in turn AoE all enemies became bombs. One punch, whole screen explodes.

@Magician good lord, that sounds quite ridiculous indeed

I highly doubt it's an actually efficient build, but I got through 3 acts with it barely meeting any resistance. I think I died once, due to being distracted.

I have to say, doesn't sound like a negative to me

That's an interesting thing I've noticed: there seems to be a shift towards significantly lower difficulty overall in these kinds of games, at least at the start. Same thing happened when I tried playind D3 with a friend: we got to act 2 just facerolling everything and grew bored of it. And that was on Nightmare 1 or 2, whatever we could choose from the start.

I like it when you can become ridiculously powerful in these games

I think there needs to be a cycle: meet harder and harder enemies, find a new item, splat them for a bit, repeat

The power fantasy quickly loses its appeal if there's never been a challenge.

@Magician true, absolutely no difficulty at all would suck

And, again, never got to endgame, didn't even finish the story.

Yeah but I still appreciate the 2 cents worth regardless

lol

So, I have a situation. There is one Player in my group that is convinced that each and every NPC that is acting slightly out of the ordinary is "Undead" and needs to be carefully inspected to make sure that they're not. And even when they do inspect them (when I allow it cos it just gets old sometimes), they're still not convinced...

Option A: that's a character quirk, roll with it. Option B: explain out-of-character that it's an extremely unlikely event, and promise you won't just screw them over by undeadifying everyone while they're not looking. These are not mutually exclusive.

Unfortunately, I have done both of these and I think it might just be time to say "ok, I get it, but it's just impeding the flow of the game every time you interrupt a conversation to check, again."

@Ben Give this paranoid character a magic ring that detect's undead within 10 feet. Then tell the player he/she doesn't have to worry, because you will tell him/her immediately if undead are nearby.

@qaywsx This is quite clever.

I also like Option B by Magician.

Reminds me of this one magic item I created for my party, the clapping monkey. It was supposed to be a random flavorful trinket, a little monkey statuette that was otherwise inert but if it heard a rhythm, it'd start clapping along to it for a while.

The party's rogue pilfered it and later on they chanced upon a hobgoblin march.

The rogue was smart enough to dispose of the monkey immediately, realizing the dangers of the monkey clapping along to the marching. They might've been noticed.

Other option: you could introduce an NPC that acts really REALLY suspiciously. In fact this NPC acts so suspiciously, that it is immediately obvious, that he/she is hiding a dark secret. And of course, this dark secret is being undead. The paranoid player can feel smart, "because he/she knew it all along!!!". Plus, from then on, the player knows that it's fairly obvious if someone is undead or not, so he/she doesn't have to check everybody all the time.

I dunno, that might just encourage them to do it more.

I don't know. I think if the gamemaster makes it obvious who's undead and who's not at first glance, then the players would understand that they don't have to worry. That might be preferable compared to just telling them "You don't have to worry".

@qaywsx But it might not be that it's the player who's worried, but their character.

Like we had this one pacifist character in DnD 4e (an unusually pacifist-unfriendly game) who knew perfectly well that encounters are there to be fought but still interrupted the flow of the game by trying to stop them because that's what His Guy would do.

@kviiri If it is the character and not the player that is frustrated, it is not a problem, I think.

@Szega It is if the player is interrupting the flow of the game to roleplay the suspicion.

@kviiri Ok, yes, to some extent. But the solution is different.

You just say: "OK, from now on I'm gonna assume you are investigating 70% of NPC on suspicion of being undead" And then it is usually a problem (in-game, social), and once or twice can be useful

@qaywsx Nah, if the player was paranoid, it would not be a nice move...

If the char, then sure.

I don't have a lot of patience for such character quirks because they tend to get old rather quick.

@kviiri If all the players at the table enjoy the lengthy investigation of every NPC, then maybe the GM should roll with it. Maybe there is a deity in the setting who hates undead. This deity could approach the party and send them on a quest as some kind of "undead police". If the constant suspicion of this one player/character is annoying for everyone else, then yes, the GM should talk to the player.

@qaywsx Sure, if everyone enjoys it. But it's equally important to remember that not everyone who does these lengthy investigation things actually enjoys them.

It's as likely, if not more likely, to be a part of a paranoid gamestyle. Similar to "I check for traps every 5 feet I walk and am constantly alert for threats."

And so far I've yet to meet anyone who actually likes a paranoid gamestyle. People can think it's smart or vital but "more fun", nope, haven't seen that.

@kviiri The all guardsmen party and Twitch comes to mind

@Ben sounds like abused gamer syndrome in which case yes

You've told them it won't happen and promised you won't screw them over, and it's time to tell them to quit it

@qaywsx sounds useful, though I'd be concerned about them getting paranoid about anyone they can't stand near.

@Ben I'd ask them about what went on in the past that they're checking like this. Listen actively and get them to explain the situation. Learn about why it hurt them and has sat with them still even today. Articulate it back to them to make sure you understand. Then promise to them you'll work to make sure that kind of thing doesn't happen, and ask them to tell you if you do. And then ask them to relax and not check everything for undeadness.

It might be something simple and small and straightforward, and not a hurt though it's clearly left a mark. But it might also be deeper than that.

@Szega I only know Twitch the game streaming platform.

@doppelgreener it sounds pretty bad honestly

@doppelgreener Abused Gamer Syndrome is a useful term I keep forgetting.

Should we have a Q&A about it?

@kviiri Its a "diary" of a warhammer40k campaign, worth a read (www.theallguardsmenparty.com)

Twitch is chronically paranoid character

Bankuei defines it here: bankuei.wordpress.com/2009/12/11/abused-gamer-syndrome based on this post

It comes up in a handful of posts

Hm, the part about intra-party conflict/banter/friendship is interesting. I've definitely seen our players get stuck with non-constructive bickering but I never realized it could also be out of fear for loss of agency.

Now that I think of it, it's the most anti-rails guy who tends to do it the most.

@kviiri where's that get mentioned? :O

@doppelgreener Safety measure d

@Ben One possible solution: In the next town they get to, about half the people they meet rave about how great the mayor is, who has been in charge for as long as anyone remembers. Turns out he's a LG ghost who loves the town so much, he simply refused to let his own death get in the way of helping it.

That is, validate his assumption that some of the NPCs are undead, but question the assumption that it's inherently bad, or that all undead are inherently evil.

@kviiri ooh, this makes sense

@JoelHarmon awww. :D

i think that sounds great, if the setting can permit the notion of non-evil undead :P

2spooky4me

Happy Naw-Rúz!

Morning, nerds.

I no longer have Iranian co-workers to remind me of Naw-Ruz :<

@BESW Happy Naw-Rúz!! :)

Good morning everybody.

Or evening, depending upon your time zone.

It's early afternoon here.

:<

good noon-or-thereabouts!

Thanks ^^

@kviiri I thought Finland had either eternal day or endless night depending on the season

@SPavel It's more like "very long day" or "very long night", and there's this brief liminal season when it changes noticeably on almost a daily basis.

@kviiri Next you'll tell me you get sunlight and above freezing temperatures

It never stops to feel weird though. I remember this one time when I had to conduct a nighttime patrol in the army from 2AM to 4AM, in broad daylight. Haunting.

@kviiri Just pretend that it's nuclear war and the light is from bombs

@SPavel There's a cheering thought, first thing in the morning. We did once refer to nuclear depth bombs as "bucket's of sunshine" so I suppose it fits.

@SPavel that's not better....

@goodguy5 Depends on your definition of better. We used to have a joke: The year is 2000, an era of peace has dawned. All is quiet on the Sino-Finnish border.

you and those jokes I don't get...

@goodguy5 The joke comes from the time of the Sino-Soviet split. The implication is that China has conquered the USSR, because now they share a border with Finland.

ah

We also used to say: The optimist is studying English, the pessimist is studying Mandarin, and the realist is studying his Kalashnikov.

Good morning gang

@Rubiksmoose That sounds one of those ironically benign names, and then it turns out that the gang is actually called the "good mourning" gang because of all the funerals

@SPavel hahaha! It absolutely does.

Alright. I think I have my session zero and dmplayer contract layed out.

@goodguy5 what is this bureaucracy

Cut the red tape, move fast and break things

Don't wait for your second session to start playing, start playing even before the first session

Your players won't expect a horde of goblins streaming into their office, ululating and banging war drums

@SPavel can you edit that into one post so I can flag it as interesting?

@goodguy5 Sadly it's too late but I can post it again

Don't wait for your second session to start playing, start playing even before the first session. Your players won't expect a horde of goblins streaming into their office, ululating and banging war drums

perfect

@Spavel The comedy show is up and running again today, good morning SPavel. I like this line particularly: The optimist is studying English, the pessimist is studying Mandarin, and the realist is studying his Kalashnikov

@KorvinStarmast I aim to please (and as a realist, my aim is very good)

@doppelgreener Although, to be fair, there is probably a significant overlap for something someone 'likes' and something that is interesting for others to read.

and good morning all!

@NautArch I agree, but the second is the end goal. It means we shouldn't star every joke or reference, and jokes shouldn't be the "you had to be there" variety.

@doppelgreener Only one post has been starred on the current page of the chat

@doppelgreener absolutely

@SPavel Right, but I've gone and cleared a half dozen off from yesterday

@doppelgreener I did not realize there was a daily quota..

@SPavel There is not.

I will tell the comrades in the star mines to not over-perform the Five Year Plan.

@doppelgreener My only concern with that activity is that the Mods become the arbiters of what is interesting, and not the users. If something get starred multiple times by users, then the users have said it's interesting enough. If something only gets one star and no more, does it drop off the board faster?

@NautArch Seems that way.

@SPavel thank you comrade.

Speaking of comrades

theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/16/…

XD

(considered spite starring)

and is there a problem with the things we're starring?

@NautArch This isn't the mods becoming the arbiters of what's interesting. This is the first time I've unstarred anything here in maybe months. Room caretakers, which is primarily BESW, can curate the starboard to ensure it remains containing content that seems relevant to later visitors. If it's full of too much fluff, some of it gets pruned.

@goodguy5 Comrade Doppelgreen has not cleared the Council of People's Commissars for Communications and Telegraph to approve this use of Glorious Electronic Technology functionality

@doppelgreener FYI, I have a feeling I'm coming off as ornery and argumentative and that's not my intent. I'm really just trying to understand how the starboard works.

@NautArch BESW maintains it as he explained in that message I posted. There's some other messages from him following that one.

@NautArch In my experience, the best use of the star board is as a highlights or best-of reel for people who aren't in the chat all the time--so we can see the cool stuff without having to read the whole transcript since last we left.

If it's not supposed to be a community managed board whose star value is determined by 'votes' (number of stars) that's fine.

But if we star everything that tickles our fancy, the signal-to-noise ratio quickly drops to where it's not worth paying attention to.

@NautArch You know what they say - one man, one vote, and that man is Comrade Stalin.

@BESW Yes, but I guess what I'm asking is if it's better to have a single person deciding what needs to be highlighted or to have the community decide by number of stars something gets.

I've seen this happen in many other chats, and if that's what this chat wants I won't stand against the crowd... but I hope for better things.

@NautArch Those are not the only options.

@BESW SO what are the options and does the community get to decide on what option is desired?

@goodguy5 I'd say based on this conversation, it appears there is a problem.

I want relevant and interesting content in the Starboard. But I also want to understand the process in how that relevant content is determined and who determines it. If it's the community with an oversight, that's fine. But I think that should be understood and/or agreed upon.

@NautArch @doppelgreener please provide a comprehensive list of what qualifies as "starrable material", or better yet, I'll just forgo the feature entirely. Heir Doppel can control it.

I don't think there's a problem. I think there's a trend which, if left unchecked, could produce the effects I described above. Greener and I are asking that individuals think about stars as references for future visitors rather than as a "like" button.

what Rhetoric?

Look, if I'm promoting a problem, then I'll stop it.

Y'all can star whatever. Ideally its current average function is to provide a sort of "hey, go back and look at this area of the transcript" highlight, or "this particular message is somehow remarkable and worth reading". Usually just one per conversation is necessary to draw attention to that area of the transcript. I removed several one-off jokes that occurred in a close timeframe, including a fart joke and a couple of valve jokes, because there wasn't much more to them than that.

@goodguy5 nvm

Overall the chat's behavior in the past has indicated a preference for that, and we moderate accordingly when stars get a bit noisy. If the chat's behavior changes, nobody's gonna force it back... we're just asking that the change be purposeful rather than accidental if it's going to be made, and we're giving our experience-based learning on how starring behavior affects the use of the board, to inform that decision.

I don't have time right now (meeting) to dig into this, but I legitimately don't understand what the problem is, even if there is one, and if I'm a part of it. So, until those issues can be quantifiably answered, the only way that I can be sure that I'm not interfering with however the starboard is supposed to work.

@goodguy5 Worry about your meeting for now, come back to these messages later.

I think you're reading more mandate into our comments than is intended.

I think so too.

@BESW hurr hurr you said "man date"

Since this topic seems to have lulled I have a brierief interjection:

BTW I put a bounty out on a question because the higher answers all have about 50% up:downvote ratios and the lower ones did not seem to get enough attention. Also, I think the top answer is incredibly low quality (and also contradicting recent official ruling).

@Rubiksmoose does a brierief interjection come with brie

If deserving, I would like a better answer to be alongside it to reflect our standards better. If you are so inclined, please give the bottom ones a read before deciding. (full disclosure I added an answer to try to correct this as well)

@doppelgreener and crackers!

aw yes. i am so here for this interjection.

@SPavel I have also had a DBZ date. Truly, the world is a diverse and wonderful place.

@BESW Wouldn't a DBZ date just be two people grunting for 22 minutes with commercial breaks?

....Technically it was also a man date.

@Rubiksmoose Thank you for your bounty! That's exactly what they're there for!

@BESW Of course, the only female DBZ character useful in a fight is an Android, and Androids don't power up, so she wouldn't need to grunt

@BESW :) I regret not putting a comment in the bounty to point people to the lower answers specifically (and the fact that all the top ones are very divisive to say the least)

Eeeh, that might've been hard to say without being rude. I think "needs more attention" is probably all it needs to say?

@SPavel There was also Launch (who regrettably just got forgotten by the author), Arale who was insanely OP but never showed up again either, and there's a couple of characters in Dragon Ball Super. (But shonen tends to sideline even capable female fighters, alas.)

@BESW Well it is indeed all it says! That was actually the reason I did not put anything there

Funny how it works out!

Yeah, good use of a bounty.

@doppelgreener Weirdly, there are a LOT of male characters that just happen to look like women

@SPavel Pretty sure that's the definition of a successful date

@SPavel but what do you put the enemy's flesh-on-the-bone on

@doppelgreener You do not put it down until it is picked clean. Then it goes onto the fire, because fire.

@NautArch this guy consumes

Clearly, I didn't read the intro to Xanathar carefully enough. I had no idea those rules contained were optional

is it worth making a Q&A so folks can discover that?

@NautArch It might be kinda like this issue?:

(@Magician's answer there is excellent)

kinda - but it's more that the rules in Xanathar's are optional/variant. They are official, but they are not updates the rule base (which I had thought), but options you could employ if you wanted.

@NautArch Ah, the Unearthed Arcana gambit

"These are variants, so we don't need to actually try when writing them"

@SPavel except UA aren't playtested rules. Xanathar's are playtested, they're just optional. Like using proficiency die or flanking.

@NautArch I've read about how WotC playtests, it may actually be a detriment

@SPavel how's that? (how do they playtest such that it's a detriment?)

@doppelgreener The reason 3.5 druid was so strong was that the player playtesting it had an eagle animal companion and dual-wielded scimitars in human form for combat

@SPavel surely they didn't playtest only with one player?

Is S in "SPavel" sort for Shirley?

and I'm back

@kviiri No, it's short for a long S - ſ

@goodguy5 is the mirror bit to my answer clearer after @Rubiksmoose's edits?

..checking

I actually posted that question after the edits

but I'm also willing to accept that I'm just picking nits

@goodguy5 made a small change - is that clearer?

Oh, the main title bit of the answer.

I think I'm okay with that change.

If you think it's clearer, others probably will as well.

eh.... I wouldn't be so sure lol

@goodguy5 Why would you pick on a poor sheep like that?

@goodguy5 too late.

@NautArch but I am satiated by these changes. up-doot applied

And someone (JC maybe) has implied that you can use a shield bash as an improvised weapon or some such as an off hand attack.

which implies that you could use a shield as an improvised weapon as a main hand attack.

@goodguy5 I'd agree with that, why wouldn't it?

So: If you have the Shield Master feat and you use your action to attack with a shield, can you shove with your shield as a bonus action?

I just have this great mental image of a fighter being disarmed of his weapon, then bashing the guy with his shield, and then just beating the shield into the downed guy again and again.

@goodguy5 You absolutely can, it's just not very optimal. 1+proficiency is less damage than a weapon attack.

* 1 + str modifier

@goodguy5 you rang?

tbh, I don't recall

afk lunch

(I was also riffing on the "picking nits" line)

=D

@goodguy5 yes, that :)

Fwiw, I always try to note that XGtE rules are optional. But many of the additions are just so darned useful and answer so many rules holes that it is hard to not want them to be part of the core. Falling for example, was one thing XGtE cleared up amazingly.

@Rubiksmoose That sounds rather reasonable

@Rubiksmoose I never realized they were purely optional :)

I made the assumption it was another rulebook.

The reason I think they did that was to keep barrier to entry low. Right now you only need the PHB and maybe the DMG to play. In fact you technically can get by with the basic rules. Thus, they lure you in with only needing the one thing and then cause you to want to buy the other stuff later.

^To fix all the stuff they left out of the core lol

Yeah, it'd be a rather upsetting move to many for WotC to make a number about the book being mandatory in any sense.

@kviiri the optional bits live entirely in the Dungeon Master's section. The DMG is not required for play either...does that mean those are also optional rules/purely guidance?

my world is shattering.

@NautArch there are some variants in the DMG but I believe it is considered core rules. I'm not sure how much rules there actually are in the DMG though. Much of it is guidance and tools.

@NautArch I think DMG is pretty solidly "just guidance", yep. Although very useful guidance at times.

So the DMG is equivalent to Xanathar. Argh, should I put up another Q&A? :(

@NautArch I'm not sure about that assesment or about the usefulness about that Q&A... Not saying don't do it, but I'm not sure I the usefulness right now.

agreed. i'm not sure, either. There are clearly actual rules in the DMG (otherwise why list variants...they'd all be variants.)

but the DMG does seem to be a core rules book for DMs. Surprised they didn't use the same language type for Xanathar.