TRPG General Chat

NautArch

13:00

@ShadowKras while true, that's not really true. Yes, we let him take them away, but we also know there isn't an alternative.

ACuriousMind

As an isolated situation, it would be perfectly fine, but that's apparently not what's going on here

ShadowKras

@BESW shadow of the demon lord, dungeon crawl classics, maximum xcrawl, all of which are d20 based.

@NautArch couldnt you let someone outside as guard with all the weapons?

You had the option, its not like the GM said "Rock falls, all gear is taken away".

ACuriousMind

I feel you're trying to solve this one specific situation with in-game means, when the specific situation is not what (I think) NautArch was complaining about.

ShadowKras

@NautArch in your situation i would ask him "how could we have fought with our weapons?" instead of wondering if it was possible or not.

NautArch

@ShadowKras They were kind enough ot let us drop the weapons inside the temple by the door. The Barbarian refused and stayed outside. But yes, this GM styles basically is "rock falls, all gear is taken away". He's done it multiple times in this campaign and when we started an Iron Kingdoms, he did it there, too.

eimyr

13:02

@ShadowKras "Give me all your money or die!" - were you robbed or did you, through conscious and well-informed choice, donate the money to Robber's Fund?

ShadowKras

Yeah i remember you telling me that story about your IK game

@NautArch the point im trying to reach here is: If that's your only option, create another option, break the that framework.

Iv been in a situation where my character was alone and unarmed against 11 enemies and managed to go completely against what the GM was planning for him.

NautArch

@ShadowKras There really isn't another option. The GM doesn't really allow for that creativity.

ShadowKras

Then, next time, force your way through the situation. Or run away and plan another approach.

BESW

This is rapidly approaching existentialist territory, whereby all negative experiences in life are your own fault for not killing yourself before they happened.

ShadowKras

If he is forcing the situation on you, you can force another situation on him.

doppelgreener

13:05

@BESW i'm alarmed but i laughed

eimyr

@ShadowKras I know this is RPG.SE and the desire to answer questions or solve problems is real, but I don't think @NautArch is actually looking for solutions. Just discussing a situation, sharing experiences, offering stories to be heard.

ShadowKras

This GM im speaking about literally rolls the dice and says "i hope you die now"

@eimyr so am i. I am offering advice. But if that is unwelcome, i will stop.

BESW

It doesn't seem to acknowledge the power imbalance between a GM and the players in this kind of situation; you're basically arguing that their best bet is to, as players, outsmart the GM when he has ultimate control over the situation. The only way players can succeed at that gambit is if the GM is willing to pull his punches and at least pretend fairness.

nitsua60

@eimyr I've had some excellent co-GM experiences. In fact, I'm realizing the only co-GM experiences I've had were excellent ones. Don't give up on it--it can be great!

eimyr

@ShadowKras Not my call. I catch myself attempting to offer solutions onto people whose problems are only problems to me.

NautArch

13:07

@ShadowKras It's not unwelcome, it's more that I've accepted that which I can change and what I cannot. I cannot change the DM, but I can work with what I"ve got. Accept it and have fun - and complain here about the other stuff :)

eimyr

@nitsua60 I'd be interested to learn how that can be achieved.

nitsua60

@eimyr Both times--different co-GMs--it was with large tables and newish players.

ShadowKras

Oh, another game @BESW, lamentations of the flame princess (which is a great game btw), but like the others, the book tells the GM to attempt to murder the characters.

BESW

@eimyr I recruited Trogdor as unofficial co-GM for D&D 4e; he was Rules Expert, Helper of Players With Their Characters, and Runner of Secondary Campaign When I Was Too Brain-Dead.

nitsua60

In one campaign my partner was the "story GM" running the interactions and combats, and I was circling the table working one-on-one with players. (Figuring out spells, gear, running time and initiative for combats; maybe more of "assistant GMing" in that case?)

BESW

13:10

My original SG-13 campaign was going to have an ex-military co-GM help me with the Air Force stuff and battle tactics.

nitsua60

In the second one I and a (different) partner split the table-time: I was the show-runnner and the partner played the parts of all NPCs.

doppelgreener

@BESW thank goodness we don't have to worry too much about that

at least not now

Adam

Half-Life 2 Ending HD - Gman (1080p)

►

BESW

Sometimes I'll ask Troggy or Greener to help me design a session, and then as players they can help push certain buttons to make things go smoothly.

nitsua60

In both cases it was a hugely-helpful bit of load-sharing, which can be especially useful when impulsive student-players are hrowing chaos everywhere =)

BESW

13:12

I've played campaigns in both D&D 3.5 and Fate where everybody took turns designing and running their own adventures in a serialised story.

In really big groups I'll stick somebody with a calming demeanor and rules familiarity at the far end of the table.

NautArch

@BESW We've been doing an alternate game where we've done that. It's given us experience to learn more aout DMing and practice.

it's been a lot of fun and has worked well

and now another play will be the DM once this campaign is over to lead a new campagin.

BESW

Yeah, in the more recent round-robin-GMing campaign we've been better about accompanying each other as GMs and sharing the learning.

In the first version, many years ago, we sorta let each person figure it out on his own. This led to things like a group of mid-level adventurers facing four Tarrasques at once.

doppelgreener

ooer.

that doesn't sound level-appropriate

nitsua60

@BESW that sounds like a violation of the Law of Conservation of The Tarrasque =)

BESW

Most of us survived by virtue of having exploited a "bug" in the group's understanding of equivalent level adjustments.

But no, it was not level-appropriate by any stretch of the imagination.

@nitsua60 Yes. Yes, it was.

trogdor

13:17

@doppelgreener that doesn't seem level appropriate for any normal sized group even

BESW

(And now I'm remembering our Far Realm Egg theory of reality.)

trogdor

imagine only having one wish spell prepared on hand to keep one dead

BESW

@trogdor "Damnit, I only have one Ring of Three Wishes!"

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 What, pray tell, is the Law of Conservation of the Tarrasque?

trogdor

@doppelgreener there is always one, you kill it? it will come back later

but there is also usually only one

as I understand it

doppelgreener

13:19

that would make sense

BESW

Yeah, the Tarrasque is a unique, singular creature who exists in the prime plane of each multiverse hub.

doppelgreener

@BESW the one where Reality is basically the Tarrasque's egg for it to consume, and once it's done eating literally everything in the cosmos it'll finally hatch?

BESW

Yup.

doppelgreener

i like that one.

BESW

Each entire multiverse is a single egg laid in the unreality of the Far Realm, for the sole purpose of nurturing a tarrasque until it hatches. Aberrations and Far Realm beings are parasites, symbiotes, and babysitters.

eimyr

13:22

@nitsua60 so it's not really co-GMing, rather GM and a technical helper

nitsua60

@doppelgreener The "one"ness of the Tarrasque.

@eimyr The first situation I described was more like that; the second really was co-. Even when it didn't look like it at the table (though I think it did), the partner and I had many lunches discussing how to handle things, debriefing after sessions, designing dungeons, &c.

doppelgreener

@BESW I'm keen on the group re-stabilising and taking another look at Amaterasu. It's been a while, so we might choose to move on and do something else, but I'd be interested to revisit it. :D

eimyr

so what do you do if there's a difference in GM-intention between you?

nitsua60

We'd also sometimes split the table and run separately, texting back-and-forth to keep world and time synchronized, so the tables could come back together in harmony.

BESW

@doppelgreener The re-stabilising bit is a problem; Raycia's still unsure of her schedule week to week.

nitsua60

13:24

(Or chaos, because these are teenagers.)

@eimyr Talk, if it's out of session. Follow one's lead, if in-session.

doppelgreener

@BESW Gotcha. Dan hasn't been around at Skypes, and Ben's been rolling rocks.

BESW

Yeah. Ben's not a big problem though. He's historically chill to just slip into whatever we've got going on.

eimyr

@nitsua60 was it worth it? I feel like there's more to lose than to gain from such an arrengement.

nitsua60

@eimyr It was awesome. I loved it, and would do it again in a heartbeat.

BESW

Not that anyone else isn't, push comes to shove, but Ben makes it a point to be the guy who can slip in and out without making ripples.

trogdor

13:27

@BESW so this implies there are some Far Realm monsters literally only hanging around to help the Tarrasque?

nitsua60

(With either of those partners.)

BESW

@trogdor Yup. Or try to eat it. But a lot of them are just sucking on the yolk.

trogdor

hah, eat the Tarrasque, how hilarious

doppelgreener

[ponder] Could life & divinities be an evolved egg immune system?

nitsua60

@eimyr I think it certainly helped that we'd both played under each other (in both pairings) and both liked each others' strengths and saw ways we complement each other? So we came into it with the "hey, I'm not good at ___ but you are, and I think I do ___ better than you" attitude.

BESW

13:28

@doppelgreener That seems reasonable. And this re-casts star pact warlocks in a new light.

eimyr

@nitsua60 I'm mostly playing indies now, which don't seem to entertain the idea or are GMless in the first place. I'd be willing to observe it in action, if given opportunity.

trogdor

@doppelgreener also, if we do this, I have a group of maybe 3 or 4 sessions I would want to run at some point, I have mentioned it before, but I just wanted to re-iterate that

and off to the place of sleeping it is for me now

BESW

....now I kinda want to make a microRPG about co-GMing.

doppelgreener

@trogdor Goodnight!

nitsua60

@eimyr Even if it doesn't contemplate--which, let's be clear, none of the D&Ds do, either--I think it's a matter of looking at another GM and seeing a puzzle-piece that complements you. Like a good puzzle, there's no point to forcing it. But when it CLICK!s, that sure feels nice.

doppelgreener

13:30

@trogdor woo! i'm looking forward to that one. I'll probably bring Cassandra, the alchemist, to them. :D

nitsua60

(I've also had practice setting up and working in these arrangements co-teaching, so that might help?)

Gotta run--back in a bit!

BESW

Co-GMing the way you're thinking of it, @eimyr, is kinda like finding a drift-compatible pilot to operate a jaeger with you.

eimyr

@BESW AFAIR it was done by sharing personal drama and at great personal risk

BESW

Aye. You have to find someone you can let into your head, and trust, and you have to maintain the relationship both on and off duty.

That kind of sympatico rarely just happens but it can't be forced either. It can be cultivated though.

And yeah, it can crash and burn hard if you get out of sync.

eimyr

And it requires plenty of available time to maintain the connection, lest you're alone, trying to figure this monster out on your own, bleeding and exhausted.

BESW

13:41

Yup.

I've had that level of sympatico a couple of times, with people who I'd spend hours with almost every day.

But even then, not all of those people were folks I'd co-GM with on that simultaneous level.

I did once get a friend fully briefed on the game scenario and let him loose for special one-on-one sessions with each player.

Dr R Dizzle

Does anyone know of a quick and easy way to generate the shape of an island?

Beyond simply drawing a freehand circle with some wiggly bits.

BESW

@DrRDizzle Macaroni.

4

nitsua60

@BESW Cultivated is a great term for it. Partner #2 and I were friends for ten years and had played with/under each other for three before giving it a try.

Dr R Dizzle

@BESW That's both a) hilarious and b) surprisingly useful. Thanks!

BESW

@DrRDizzle Or do what I do, and grab an existing map.

ShadowKras

13:45

@DrRDizzle depends on the shape of the island we are talking about

Dr R Dizzle

This only needs to be a roughly 100sq mile island.

BESW

How many of your players are going to recognise the geography of Easter Island? Or Wake Atoll?

Dr R Dizzle

@BESW I would hazard a guess at 0

BESW

Also I have The Dictionary of Imaginary Places, which is awesome.

Use Robinson Crusoe's island, for example.

Or Caspak and Oo-Oh.

If you want to make it an easter egg they might actually notice, use Treasure Island.

This map was originally Harrington's Commonwealth of Oceana.

nitsua60

@DrRDizzle Second both of those =)

BESW

14:14

This map started its life as a sketch of the Gulf of Mexico.

eimyr

@BESW Have you tried using Homm3 map editor to create fantasy maps?

nitsua60

@BESW Seems like that map started its live as isometric graph paper =)

BESW

This map imagines Dinotopia as a peninsula rather than an island.

@nitsua60 I translated the original sketch into the Caesar III mapmaker.

@eimyr Nope. Haven't made full maps in a rather long time.

Dr R Dizzle

I might just use the Isle of Wight.

BESW

A lot of my recent campaigns have been able to use modified Google Maps.

eimyr

14:18

@BESW It works very very well on a rather intimate scale, where you would portray a few cities and areas between them, but not much more.

BESW

Anyway, sleep nao. [thud]

Dr R Dizzle

My players are going to do a Hunger Games type thing, and the way I'm running it is by having a 10x10 mile island divided into a grid of about a mile squared. Each time they travel as a group, they move one grid place up/right/diagonal/whatever. Some grid places will have encounters, some won't. Whenever they movie around, so will the other competitors.

eimyr

@DrRDizzle Make sure to remove some squares periodically to force them to meet each other

Dr R Dizzle

@eimyr They have to be at a tower at the centre of the island within three days to pass the test. So everyone will come together over time anyway.

@eimyr Although something more immediate might raise the stakes a little. Might have an electricity field close in or something.

The Oracle

14:49

2

Q: Are questions about specific details found in RPG-based novels on topic?

Inspired by this question, are questions that ask about a specific detail (like, for example, the color of a creature's blood) or specific incident (like how a specific action could occur) on topic when the question springs from a novel (or other work of fiction) that takes place in a role-playin...

Premier Bromanov

15:20

Have you guys ever used the (the name escapes me, Dungeon something? it's D6 based) system where you allow players to roll for saving throws and/or skill checks using any stat they want as long as they can justify it? Good idea? bad idea?

sorry, in the context of DnD 5e

Dr R Dizzle

@PremierBromanov Roll for Shoes?

Actually, now I reread your description, that doesn't sound right. Carry on.

NautArch

@PremierBromanov Iron Kingdoms has a bit of that (it's d6 based, but may not be what you're thinking of)

Dr R Dizzle

whistles nonchalantly

NautArch

but in general, the risk is that it can be pretty easy to bypass the harder saves with a good rationalization.

and good rationalizations aren't hard to do

What you're doing, in effect, is minimizing the importance of tradeoffs during character creation (choosing to prioritize some statistics over others)

Premier Bromanov

true, what about skill checks? might empower players to be more flexible

hmm

NautArch

15:26

the rules have it built in to 'allow' for that

I think as long as you don't let everything get approved it's okay, but then you may ahve table disagreements on your interpreation of their rationalization

instead - YOU can offer alternate skill checks that you think make sense in a given situation. WHether or not they apply to someone's proficiencies isn't your problem :)

ACuriousMind

@PremierBromanov With a bit of creativity that sounds like a D&D player would describe the Defy Danger move from Dungeon World while misunderstanding the whole point of the system ;)

Premier Bromanov

What if, rather than picking a skill, they just pick an attribute. Like, maybe you have a bad intimidation mod, but one could allow you to use your base strength instead?

@ACuriousMind Dungeon World I think is exactly what I was thinking of

i only played it once though

NautArch

@PremierBromanov I thought that was what you were asking :)

If Strength makes sense in that situation - you could offer it. However, think you'd need to think about how it would work and what a reaction may be to it.

Premier Bromanov

@NautArch maybe a good tradeoff for encouraging my players to RP, rather than kill everything lol

NautArch

For instance - I want to use Intimidate (STR) to convince X. What are you using your STR for? Are you breaking something? If so, then set a DC for it, and have him roll. Still a chance he borks it (which would be funny)

But if the idea is "I'm big and strong, I want to use STR instead of CHA because i'm flexing..." that's still CHA. STR is a physical act (in my mind.)

@PremierBromanov But you know your players and if you give them options on how to proceed it kind of teaches them how to do it later but for now you still maintain control of the options and don't have to say "no" to them until they've learned from you how it works.

Premier Bromanov

15:33

@NautArch Ahh, i like that. keep the physical apart from the mental

flexing by itself is still charisma

ACuriousMind

@PremierBromanov Ah, okay. In general, transplanting only parts of DW to other systems doesn't work very well. In particular transplanting the moves to other games is rarely possible because the basic conceit of DW is that the players don't get to choose the moves - you don't say "I want to roll +WIS" and then come up with a justification, you just say what you do and then the DM (or the table) decides that that sounds like an action that triggers Defy Danger rolling +WIS.

NautArch

@PremierBromanov But think about how someone might react (which I guess is the same for any skill test). Say you're trying to intimidate a shopkeeper into a lower price with STR. If you do break something...was it the shopkeepers property? Does he keep iron bars in his bag for this circumstance, etc.)

Premier Bromanov

@ACuriousMind so basically it's already there in DnD

NautArch

@ACuriousMind That's a great idea!

ACuriousMind

@PremierBromanov In a DnD game that focuses on uh, "narrative consistency" (Skill rolls only being called for after the player has described the character's action that is being adjudicated by the roll in fictional detail) rather than mechanics (Skill rolls being called for because a player says "I want to use skill X"), this will be already there, yes.

@NautArch Dungeon World is great to learn (DM) habits that many other games implicitly expect you to develop because a lot of it is an explicit part of the rules.

NautArch

15:43

@ACuriousMind I think I need to look into DW :)

...downloading play sheets to read...

ACuriousMind

@NautArch The nice thing is that the play sheets are everything the players need, apart from 2d6. The DM should have read the full rules, though.

NautArch

ah - okay. Not sure i'll invest in buying that...

ACuriousMind

@NautArch You don't need to buy it

The full rules are online as an SRD here, and you can also find PDF versions of that

The thing you'd be paying for would be the illustrated rules, or just supporting the creators, but nothing about the game system itself is unavailable if you don't want to pay anything just yet

NautArch

16:00

oh cool!

thanks!

eimyr

@ACuriousMind I'm pretty sure the whole point of PbtA, Dungeon World included is to have literally everything you need to know or do as a GM in the rules and particularly mechanics.

ACuriousMind

Yup, I agree

eimyr

The strength of PbtA games is that for them to work as intended you must follow the GMing section of the book to the letter, with religious adherence - but on the flipside, you don't have to bring any additional skill with you to run an awesome game.

ACuriousMind

Well, you need the skill to be actually good at the sort of improvisation these rules demand from you. It's one thing to Reveal An Unwelcome Truth, it's another to come up with the truth in the first place ;)

I don't think PbtA really teaches you how to be good at that, but then, I don't know what does except for simple practice

eimyr

Well, any truth can usually do when you need to reveal it

as long as it's unwelcome

that's the point, that if you manage to do exactly what the title says - reveal - unwelcome - truth - then you've done enough

GreySage

16:36

@eimyr "You open your lunch box and discouver, instead of banana slices, you have plantain slices!"

eimyr

17:02

@GreySage i think this one is from Monsterhearts

Premier Bromanov

17:27

@ACuriousMind We played it at a local brewery and were all new to DW. The start up is very quick and it was fun

Zachiel

18:24

@ACuriousMind And that's why I don't GM PbtA games

(Also, I like pre.digesting pre-written stories and being the one that presents them to my players, rather than the one that discovers stories on the go.)

godskook

PbtA?

SevenSidedDie

@godskook Powered by the Apocalypse. Dungeon World and Monsterhearts and tremulus and such, based on the engine of Apocalypse World.

godskook

Interesting.

Never really played them, but I've seen Dungeonworld on this site enough.

ACuriousMind

@Zachiel Well, I've found that most of my groups quickly shred any kind of carefully planned story I had, anyway, by doing absolutely not what I expected them to (and I really don't like railroading them). I've never once "presented" a story to my players without having to make major adjustments on the fly, and in the end I think that (improvisation, immediate and freeform influence on the narrative) where a major part of the fun in role playing for me comes from.

SevenSidedDie

@ACuriousMind I have the opposite problem — I don't like creating stories, I just want to play in a sandbox, but I have players who really want high-concept quests and through-line for plots. I'm currently running Dungeon World with a strong set of high-level threats I can draw consistent events from, which together provides the illusion of a plot, when I'm really just making it all up as I go. It's working well. :)

godskook

18:38

I avoid writing "stereotypical" plots for my games entirely. I just write "what they will be doing unless the PCs intervene" plots, throw my players various hooks and a strong backup "plot-driver guild", and see where it goes.

SevenSidedDie

@godskook This is my preference too. Last campaign, I got complaints midway through that they wanted more direction. Gaah! ^_^ Adjusting during that campaign didn't work so well, but I designed the current one with that firmly in mind.

godskook

I ~try~ to keep a few villains beyond what the PCs can handle, and just keep updating the villains' activities and power-levels as I go. Playing E6-esque admittedly helps with this, since relevant villains don't turn into deities while the PCs aren't watching.

@SevenSidedDie, what do you mean, "direction"?

SevenSidedDie

@godskook Like literally, they wanted more direction from me as to where to go and what to do. It was a culture-and-religion focused sandbox setting where events happened and affected their communities, and they had their own personal relationships and becoming-important-people goals, but they wanted me to give more clear direction “towards where my plot was”, not realising there wasn't one.

godskook

Like...my game has a baseline "flow" to it, but I lean far more episodic, rather than serial. Like....NCIS.

ACuriousMind

@SevenSidedDie Oh, heh. Well, I think it's not that my players don't like direction as in "go there, do that" (i.e. they don't want a complete sandbox), but any planning I try to do beyond motivations and goals of the NPCs tends to get wasted because they decide to kill (or not kill, or imprison, or drug, or interrogate-with-better-arguments-than-I-had-thought-of) the wrong NPC at the wrong time from the perspective of what I thought would happen next.

So I've generally given up trying to predict what happens next and so far it hasn't been detrimental.

godskook

18:50

@SevenSidedDie, did your first campaign give them any "easy buttons" for a baseline plot-tivity? Any prompts at all?

SevenSidedDie

@ACuriousMind Yeah, there's definitely a middle ground there. I'm just amused that there is so much diversity in tables' playstyle that I can even have the opposite problem. :)

@godskook There was lots of things going on, and they were certainly busy enough. They just complained that they couldn't figure out what the “main plotline” was.

godskook

@SevenSidedDie, so a Serial vs. Episodic complaint? Just to make sure I understand?

Or is that not an accurate dimension-ization of the issue?

SevenSidedDie

@godskook Serial in my case — I have a hard time running episodic sandboxes. So like, they were exploring the distant city as emissaries of their clan, taking trade goods, making deals for future caravans, meeting with the city's King, pursuing their secret goals, and so on and so on. I thought the game was going amazingly. But they wanted more “main plotline”.

ACuriousMind

@SevenSidedDie The diversity in playstyles amazes/intrigues/horrifies me every time I hear other people talk about their experiences. I play in a bunch of different groups but they tend to all have a somewhat similar "vibe".

godskook

@SevenSidedDie, if I'm understanding you right, you WERE running an episodic campaign and -they- wanted serial. Serial = "main plot", episodic = "many small stories connected by the characters".

SevenSidedDie

18:54

I'm the sort of person that, while playing Skyrim, jumped off the main plotline as soon as I reached the freedom of the open world, and just explored and discovered my own story. I have at least two players who, instead, would ignore every part of the game that wasn't the Main Quest.

Yuuki

Wait, Skyrim has a Main Quest?

godskook

@Yuuki, so does Minecraft :p

SevenSidedDie

@godskook Ah, no, that's not how I understand those terms. Episodic means they're self-contained stories with the same characters and setting, with some connections. Serial is that each new session leads from the next, with no distinct separation between events or even lines.

What they wanted was a discrete Main Quest they could find and follow. I didn't have one of those.

Yuuki

@godskook Well yeah, the main quest is to die in a massive Creeper explosion.

I'm the best at winning Minecraft.

SevenSidedDie

@Yuuki (Can't tell if joking, or doesn't know about Minecraft's endgame. Well done.)

godskook

18:57

@SevenSidedDie, I was using the terms from TV/Radio

Yuuki

I can't remember the last time I played vanilla. By the time I do the Ender Dragon, I can usually one or two-shot it with some weird mod.

godskook

@Yuuki, pretty sure the "main" quest of minecraft is killing the Ender Dragon

Adam

@SevenSidedDie A tv show can have arcs or specials that take place over several episodes. Have you had anything like that in the past where there was a solid three or four session "story" that was large enough to require multiple "episodes"?

SevenSidedDie

@godskook Me too. It's just that they don't map to this. I was neither running a game with an ongoing main plot, nor running a game with connected episodes. The “plot” was emergent, so it was serial, but unplanned and non-centralised.

They were getting a serial adventure, just not with a main plot. They wanted a serial adventure, but with a main plot.

godskook

"In television and radio programming, a serial has a continuing plot that unfolds in a sequential episode-by-episode fashion. Serials typically follow main story arcs that span entire television seasons or even the full run of the series, which distinguishes them from traditional episodic television that relies on more stand-alone episodes. Worldwide, the soap opera is the most prominent form of serial dramatic programming."

Serial (radio and television)

In television and radio programming, a serial has a continuing plot that unfolds in a sequential episode-by-episode fashion. Serials typically follow main story arcs that span entire television seasons or even the full run of the series, which distinguishes them from traditional episodic television that relies on more stand-alone episodes. Worldwide, the soap opera is the most prominent form of serial dramatic programming. Serials rely on keeping the full nature of the story hidden and revealing elements episode by episode to keep viewers tuning in to learn more. Often these shows employ recapping...

SevenSidedDie

19:00

@godskook Yeah, I wasn't running it episodic at all. Their complaint was orthogonal to this axis.

godskook

For instance, NCIS and SG-1 are primarily episodic shows, whos' episodes contain largely "this-show only" plot, but are all part of a larger and growing universe.

Compared to Battlestar Galactica which is a Serial.

SevenSidedDie

@godskook Yeah, I'm not good at running that kind of episodic RPG, so I generally avoid it.

godskook

Which....leaves me with the question of what ARE the axis you're working on....

SevenSidedDie

@godskook So this game was more akin to (the new) BSG, but it didn't have a main plot, it just had “what the PCs and NPCs are doing”.

NautArch

@SevenSidedDie You could also look at it more as story-arcs

SevenSidedDie

19:03

@NautArch Right, I could but this is orthogonal to the complaint they had, which was specifically that they wanted to know the way to the Main Quest. :)

NautArch

it sounds like you have lots of small story-arcs, but your group is looking to have those AND a over-arching story arc that they can be pursuing as they do their smaller ones.

godskook

@SevenSidedDie, the BSG I was referencing is the new one that launched like...5-10 years ago.

SevenSidedDie

Yeah, that game definitely (in retrospect, organically) had arcs, but that's besides the point.

ACuriousMind

I usually have a serial with some episodes that don't contribute to the main plot at all strewn in. Probably most pronounced in my Shadowrun table, because the nature of "runs" makes it separate into "episodes" very cleanly.

NautArch

Well, the over-arching story arc IS the main quest. I thought you were syaing you didn't really have a main quest :)

not that they didn't know how to interact with it/start it.

SevenSidedDie

19:05

@NautArch That's a view that I take too: the emergent storyline is the main story. But they were complaining that I didn't tell them clearly enough where the main story was, so they could proactively follow it. Since I was running the game to have emergent stories based on what they did and where they went, it was impossible for me to point to the as-yet-unknown emergent main plot.

They wanted more of a Planned Campaign Plot that I would reveal to them, and lead them through, semi-railroad fashion.

@NautArch I did try to retrofit a planned main story, cobbled together out of what they had been up to and extrapolating it out into a semi-railroad, in a way I don't usually do, but it became a dull and lifeless game for me and I eventually shelved it.

godskook

@SevenSidedDie, like...I refuse to do "world changing plots of epicness" anymore. The most epic I'll get is Red Hand of Doom level stories.

SevenSidedDie

@godskook Yeah, that's where they wanted me to lead them. Ironically, I'm find with world-changing plots of epicness that are emergent… I just don't want to play through a novel I've already written in my head, right?

godskook

But even then, I never assume PC success, nor specialness.

SevenSidedDie

What I'm doing in the current Dungeon World game is giving them initial situations (as one does in DW) and riffing off their responses (ditto), but having a set of themes and more concrete thematic pieces that I regularly return to for my GM moves. This creates a serial with the appearance of a main plot, while not requiring me to plot anything. Due to my themes and pieces too, it's actually getting quite epic, without much effort on my part.

Plus there are lots of side excursions, which is fun, and which often (unexpectedly for me) end up weaving into the so-called “main plot”. Despite the “main plot” being a fake “railroad” that I'm building just-in-time ahead of wherever they wander around the map.

NautArch

I could definitely see the need for wanting something BIG to work towards. I'm still pretty new at this and haven't yet had a chance to do true campaign. I'm pretty much just theorizing here :)

Adam

19:15

@NautArch #same

SevenSidedDie

@NautArch I think it really depends on the players. Some people want to play Dragon Age, some people want to play Minecraft, some people want to play Minecraft while feeling like they're playing Dragon Age, some people want to play Dragon Age but be able to completely hijack the plot and take it elsewhere…

godskook

My last mission had the PCs sent on a kill/capture mission to a far-away(read: outside their guild's reliable teleport influence) land. Turns out it was a Mind Flayer. I gave them no direction about how to approach the situation, and their implementation of the plan bordered on the slapstick at times.

But in the end, the party Ninja used a custom-device to teleport an Ally, with Mind Flayer attached, back to their guild, completing the mission, at the cost of the ally's life.

NautArch

@SevenSidedDie Yes, and that's something my group hasn't done - had a discussion aout what we want to do/get out of the campaign. I joined our current campaign about a year in (maybe a bit less) and was thrown into a world of homerules, etc. that was hard to grok while i figured out D&D in general. That campaign is still going on.

SevenSidedDie

My players currently consist of 1) wants a main plot and doesn't care about anything else, 2) prefers a main plot, but only to give a framework within which she can pursue romance subplots, 3&4&5) players who just wants to have adventuresome fun and relax after work into a persona they find intersting to portray.

@godskook See, that sounds like my idea of fun. “Here's a thing! Have at it!”

Zachiel

@SevenSidedDie Haha, When playing Oblivion I jumped off the main quest ASAP as well, but for a completely different reason: I didn't want to leave sidequest unsolved. (I got bored first)

SevenSidedDie

19:20

@NautArch We never really had that discussion either. It's a peculiar effect of the diversity of playstyles that we often assume ours is the only one, so it never occurs to us that things need discussing, and even if it does, it can be unclear on what can be different and therefore needs discussing. (Hence the strength of the Same Page Tool being mostly learning that there are differences to discuss.)

@Zachiel I have a bit of that too. So many things to complete! (I tend to drift away after a while too.)

Zachiel

@ACuriousMind there's railroading, there's illusionism (hiding the rails from the players) and then there's partecipationism (i.e.: "Look, that's what's this story is about and the threat is very clear, are you OK with pursuing it?")

NautArch

@SevenSidedDie I've actually wanted to do that BECAUSE of becoming active in this community :)

Adam

@SevenSidedDie I find too many things interesting, I can't focus on making one huge plot. I don't want to back myself into a corner where, "Oh, there is a war with the orcs going on, and the whole campaign is about that, so every encounter is orcs, and things that you associate with orcs"

SevenSidedDie

@NautArch I think this campaign is working despite lacking that conversation just because I had that lightbulb moment, and tuned the campaign to directly satisfy the issues brought up. Next campaign, I will lay down the SPT first. :)

godskook

@SevenSidedDie, and since they surprised me with ~how~ they finished the mission, they never faced the Justicars they were "supposed" to fight in that arc. So now the Justicars have been sent by the Mind Flayer's allies to recover him and kill his captors.

Zachiel

19:23

I'm pretty good at participationism, and the last player I had who actively opposed that didn't really want to play D&D but the "let's get rich at the expense of everyone else" game (rogue who spent encounters sneaking ahead to get treasures, robbed the party and wanted to buy houses around the BBEG base hoping that the land would have became more valuabole with the BBEG gone.

godskook

And I'm logging the Justicars' adventures across the land as they track and prepare to kill the PCs.

SevenSidedDie

@godskook Nice.

godskook

@SevenSidedDie Rule #1 of my style is to never resolve -anything- that happens in the "future", because from the PC-perspective, it hasn't happened yet, period.

SevenSidedDie

@Zachiel I've never been great at participationism, though I can try a bit. My characters tend to not do what the participationist GM expects, even if I'm still solidly on the railroad still. (Like my ranger, who attempted to sacrifice himself for the good of the party in a conflict with some druids. The GM just kinda… avoided it working.)

@godskook That sounds a lot like the core of how Dungeon World and other PbtA games work. (Which probably means that you would find them annoying to run, because their rules for the GM to follow are pretty ironclad, but are designed to accomplish something you're already comfortable doing without mechanical assistance.)

ACuriousMind

@Zachiel Oh, my problem was not about the players refusing to participate in the story. It's about them participating so much/in such unexpected ways that the "story" as I initially envisioned it can no longer happen. ("railroading" means to me that you're limiting the players' options and pushing them towards certain decisions so that specific events you want to happen must happen)

godskook

19:28

@SevenSidedDie, interesting.

NautArch

@ACuriousMind that's my interpretation of railroading as well. But having a main arc that the players can pursue and have support to pursue I think is different.

ACuriousMind

@godskook "Play to find out what happens", one of the core tenets of the DM's agenda in DW.

godskook

For instance, this is what I have written up for the Justicars atm.

Campaign Log: 5/29(151.5.29

Team waits 7-8 days to allow Eberk to enchant new armor
And then travels to Valosian Nursery via the new Teleport Gate.
Talks to Ambilax, revealing various things, and they decide to split the party.
Mudda heads south, to Starpa, to investigate things, while the attending team heads north, to Garzadum, to talk to some Paladins. For 2 days of travel, each way, they learn some things, not all connected to their current adventures, and end the session on their way back to Valosi.

NautArch

My current dm is incapable of adjusting his plans on the fly so any out of the box thinking is generally shut down.

godskook

I went a few weeks past where the PCs are atm because they're super unlikely to even be in Kintarra when the Justicars arrive, so it won't matter.

ACuriousMind

19:32

@NautArch Sure. Without railroading necessity dictates that the form in which that arc exists is much vaguer than what one would conventionally call a "story", though, and I wouldn't call playing through such an arc "presenting it to my players" (which is what Zachiel said they like to do) but rather "fleshing it out as it happens".

NautArch

@godskook until they make that surprise left turn at Albuquerque and get there :)

SevenSidedDie

@NautArch Being able to improv is both a talent and a cultivatable skill. It's great, but yeah, not always common or something young-GMs can do well.

godskook

@NautArch, they're on a completely unrelated mission atm to stop a Starpan Druid who is tearing the souls out of the dying because she can't properly grieve the dead.

That ~should~, with traveling, last a few weeks.

NautArch

It's also a mindset thing. You have to realize you aren't in total control Of your story and that the players can and should influence and surprise you.

SevenSidedDie

@godskook This whole campaign structure is interesting. What's the premise/framework that's giving them these missions?

ACuriousMind

19:35

@NautArch That. If you don't want let go of The Plot As Written and go with the flow, it doesn't matter whether you have talent for that or not.

SevenSidedDie

(I am trying to learn how to run more episodically, because there are types of campaigns I'd like to run that would vastly benefit from shifting my default weaving-emergent-serials method towards a more episodic structure.)

@NautArch Yeah, totally that. I've always preferred improv, but the lesson Apocalypse/Dungeon World taught me was how to really, really let go of my plans and just go with the flow. It helps that A/DW PCs are supposed to be very competent, so I don't have to constantly go “no wait you can't do that” when the game otherwise is wanting me to say “heck, why not? see what happens”

godskook

@SevenSidedDie, Kintarra is a city-state-guild that came to power ~150 years ago when the founders defeated the Tarrasque. Concentration of skill, unexplained immortality, and extreme isolation allowed Kintarra to flourish into a super-power relative to other nations.

Zachiel

@SevenSidedDie well it wasn't a suggestion directed at you at all, just an explanation of how this thing works and is different than pure railroading. Basically, the players agree that there will be a mission and the their characters will care about it, and they play to see how that happens, and for the tactical satisfaction of winning encounters and have their characters survive.

SevenSidedDie

@godskook So they're agents of Kintarra? That would give lots of ways to based missions on interesting intel, yeah.

godskook

At this point, Kintarra is, as a nation, dealing with the various diplomatic issues associated with being a lot more powerful than those around them. The KFL(Kintarran Foreign Legion) was formed by genius/moron who thought if Kintarra funded peace-keeping operations in conjunction with foreigners, it'd improve their image.

PCs are members of the KFL, which are, by necessity, non-Kintarrans.

So while I have lots of room to accept a WIDE variety of PCs, they all must accept certain buy-in criteria that makes the party much more compatible.

Yuuki

19:40

One year's service to become a citizen?

I've done my part!

godskook

Actually yes, something like that.

Yuuki

You clearly have to fight an alien bug invasion.

godskook

lol, no :P

Sometimes, I present my PCs with -a- mission for them to take, and sometimes I give them choices of mission.

SevenSidedDie

@godskook I like that. It's a similar default premise to the Shaintar setting, where a bunch of disparate nations contribute to a peacekeepers corps who provide security and services to the communities and people of the wildlands between the nations, which keeps them from having border frictions with each other.

(Augh, which makes me want to try running in Shaintar again. Just not with Savage Worlds…)

godskook

The Mindflayer mission was meant to have a lot of travel to give the new players a time to get used to my game and include one PC's backstory, so I presented it alone. The Starpan Druid mission was presented alongside 2 other missions. An asignment from an ex-PC-turned-god who wanted his nemisis killed, as well as a rescue mission for the son of a fallen paladin who is believed to be dominated into continuing his father's atrocity cult.

Adam

19:44

30

A: My Wizard is conjuring a piece of the sun. How will this affect my setting?

This could go a number of ways, depending on how you rule it. I'll address the problems first. What is an Object? First and foremost, you have to consider what the definition of an Object is. The Minor Conjuration feature says... [...]you can use your action to conjure up an inanimate objec...

godskook

@SevenSidedDie, also, like I mentioned earlier, I use an E6 variant, so I don't have to worry about long-term imbalances if I let a Villain wander around my setting too long.

Y'know, like I would with Xykon or Redcloak.

ShadowKras

seems like the player is running that game.

SevenSidedDie

@Zachiel Oh, that kind of participationism. Yeah, not the Participationism I was thinking of. :)

Adam

That answer went from "Won't be that bad; about half as strong as a lightning bolt. Fire ball should be a good approximation" to "It's pretty bad; about half as strong as the international space station ramming into you. At least meteor swarm level in scope." I find that hysterical.

SevenSidedDie

@godskook I can see how that would make it much easier to manage, yeah.

@Adam Times like this is when I recall that we shouldn't really try to moonlight as Physics.SE For RPGs. :/

ShadowKras

19:47

The correct answer is: He can't do that. But if you want to allow it anyway...

Zachiel

@SevenSidedDie well, yes, that participationism. But it doesn't work in a single direction.

SevenSidedDie

@Zachiel I've never seen it applied to player-concocted plans, but yeah, I can see it by analogy. (Normally I'd just call that being a well-cooperating party.)

NautArch

That one seems pretty clear you can't minor conjure the interior material of a sun.

Zachiel

I call that being a well cooperating player group :P

SevenSidedDie

@NautArch I'd say so. But I'm enjoying not shouting into the wind at the moment. ;)

NautArch

19:50

The specifics of that material is above the pay grade of a wizard and definitely of someone who just "looked at it" via scry

ShadowKras

@NautArch the question went into the direction of "here is what happens if the rules actually allowed that"

NautArch

@SevenSidedDie yeah, I opted to stay away from that one

ShadowKras

It will get as many answers as people are creative

SevenSidedDie

@ShadowKras “I'm wondering if this is even possible or if there's some rule limitation”, so a straight “nope, it isn't, here's why” would be a complete answer. People are just having fun saying “nope” and then ignoring that to see what would happen.

ShadowKras

all fun and games until someone conjures something radioative

Adam

19:54

@ShadowKras The rules allow almost anything, as long as you have a wish! ;)

ShadowKras

except you shouldnt be able wish for things you dont know about.

Adam

It's a wish. I bend reality to my will. If I wish that a 10 pound droplet of matter from the sun appears at a point within 10 feet of me, and I'm not replicating a spell of the 8th level or lower, to heck with the rules!

ShadowKras

If that was true, you could wish "i want to be a god"

SevenSidedDie

@ShadowKras It's true. It's just that if you use wish for an off-label wish, you are likely to suffer vast unwanted side-effects.

ShadowKras

@SevenSidedDie i can live with side-effects after becoming a deity.

Yuuki

19:59

Side note, if the wizard was immediately blinded by the scrying, I'm not sure if that counts as having seen starstuff.

Zachiel

@ShadowKras Ok, your character is now a deity. And an NPC. Roll a new character please.

Adam

@ShadowKras By that logic, I also couldn't wish for a piece of chocolate flavored cake if I've never seen it before, or if nobody else has really baked one that I have tasted before.

ShadowKras

@Zachiel seems to be within the same scope of "i want to summon the sun"

Zachiel

@ShadowKras Yes, intentionally so XD

SevenSidedDie

@ShadowKras There are sooo many better ways to mess with that wish. “Okay, you're a god now. Oh, no extra power from that, no. But now you're a god. And the other gods are coming for you… Okay, what now?”

ShadowKras

20:01

@SevenSidedDie not like it would be the first time (see forgotten realms).

Adam

@SevenSidedDie A squad of inevitables come knocking on your doorstep

SevenSidedDie

@ShadowKras They actually gained some power doing all that though. :)

Yuuki

@SevenSidedDie Why would the other gods be coming for you?

ShadowKras

If it was 3.x, the rules would be clear on what you gain from becoming a deity (you couldnt wish for that though). But 5e is just ah...whatever.

Anyway, im curious now, what was the spell used to scry into the sun?

Adam

All this aside though, yes. The DM has license to deny somebody their wish. It can fail, either spectacularly or mundanely. But after 17 levels of playing the game, and getting a spell that most people only dream of getting, it's a little heartless to just say "no, it doesn't work". That's a real bummer.

Yuuki

20:04

> "I Wish for more Wishes!"
> "You fall unconscious. 8 hours pass and you wake up, all your 9th-level spell slots have Wish prepared."

Adam

@ShadowKras Scrying. The caster used it on a solar that the party had met before. The Solar was standing outside a portal in the center of the sun, and the wizard saw the area as a consequence.

SevenSidedDie

@Yuuki Gods are petty politicians. Some would be coming for you to capture you, to figure out what you mean, some would be coming for your power (even if you have none), some would be recruiting, some would be wanting to squash an upstart before they become a rival… all kinds of reasons. Godswar! Over a wish. Fun.

Adam

@SevenSidedDie What if it didn't get rid of the old god who you are replacing, so now there's two god's with the same domain. You definitely can't have that.

SevenSidedDie

@Adam I think it depends. If they're using wish carelessly for Ultimate Power, then adding complications is fair game. If they're using wish to finally achieve the ultimate goal of their character's background, then awesome, let's do this! And then there's spectrum in between.

Adam

I mean't that as in "that's another reason why there would be other gods coming for you." Rather than "In this scenario, is it still okay to make them a god?"

Yuuki

20:12

> "I wish to become a god!"
> "You are now the God of Poorly-Planned Wishes, patron saint of newly 17th-level wizards."

godskook

See....my prepped solution for that kind of idiocy, after they cast a stupid power-gamey wish, is to have Pun-Pun slap them, take away their wish before its used(yes, retroactively), and tell them that if he ever catches them doing it again, he'll personally send another clone's clone's clone to deal with them. Again.

SevenSidedDie

@Adam Oh, yeah, definitely. Competition. (My last reply was to your earlier message about denying someone their wish.)

Adam

@SevenSidedDie Oh, of course. Sorry about that. I clearly cannot follow replies because, well, I'm an amateur and a fool

Team fortress 2 - You are an amateur and a fool!

►

SevenSidedDie

@Adam No worries. :) The UI here takes some getting used to, and not everyone chains replies in the first place.

@godskook I would be concerned about confirming that Pun-Pun can exist in a given setting.

NautArch

@SevenSidedDie tell me more of this reply chaining

godskook

20:23

@SevenSidedDie, Pun-Pun existing is the best answer for why a PC can't be Pun-Pun

SevenSidedDie

@NautArch If you hover over someone else's message, there are the three buttons that appear on the right: [a flag] [a star] [an arror]. Clicking the arrow preloads a :xxxxxxx reference in your message, which after you send it, converts into a link (and automatic @name) to the previous message that others can follow back. (There's also some highlighting of linked messages when you hover over one of them.)

NautArch

@SevenSidedDie TIL!

SevenSidedDie

@NautArch Precisely. :D

@godskook There is a perverse logic to that, I have to own.

godskook

@SevenSidedDie Pun-Pun, the Patron Deity of DMs. His domains are houserules, ban lists, and homebrew.

And no, young one, even IO doesn't know what a "DM" is. We had Bahamut ask it.

Erik

Bonus points for quoting the Spy :) He has all the best lines

SevenSidedDie

20:33

@Adam I find your answer's interpretation of passwall and the cube's interaction to be convincing enough that maybe I should delete my answer. It's the only point they really differ on.

NautArch

@SevenSidedDie I may have to delete my answer to the Doomsday Switch :( I'm currently trying to work out an alternatie that doesn't rely on a DM allowance.

SevenSidedDie

@NautArch Sometimes just restructuring the answer a bit so that it's “there's no good way, but if the DM will allow XYZ, then…”

NautArch

@SevenSidedDie That's not a bad idea. I can then come up with a RAW way as well (hopefully)

Adam

@SevenSidedDie I'm not sure you have to go that far. I just thought it would be easier to put an answer instead of in a comment is all.

SevenSidedDie

@Adam What if I'm entirely convinced that I overlooked the targeting on passwall, and so I wouldn't have written the answer otherwise with a solid existing one? :)

Adam

20:43

@SevenSidedDie You update your answer with your current feelings on the matter, I upvote it, and then delete mine because, had you not overlooked it or had I left a comment instead, that would have been the end result.

SevenSidedDie

@Adam On the other hand though, you did the good work of finding and writing the more correct answer, however it happened, so I'd say the honour goes to you. Are we now at an impasse? ^_^

(There's also the consideration that, at my rep level, I'm naturally shifting towards encouraging and supporting others' posts.)

MadMAxJr

There's also consideration at your rep level that adventuring parties are regularly trying to plink at you for loot drops.

SevenSidedDie

I just learned that the English prefix tera-, used in words like terawatt and terabyte and such, comes from the Greek word meaning “monster”. Which, millennia later, English independently uses slangily to mean “really big”. So appropriate!

NautArch

ha, that question appearing and disappearing on counterspell.

SevenSidedDie

@MadMAxJr (My loot drops are obscure bits of historico-linguistics. Fortunately for me the high-op CognitoBard build that can use them isn't super-popular at the moment.)

@NautArch Which one? I don't see a recently-deleted question like that.

NautArch

20:56

@SevenSidedDie @SevenSidedDie Weird. I saw it come up (asking about a PVP between a 20th lvl paladin vs sorcerer) and whether or not the sorcerer could counterspell Command because it was verbal only.

SevenSidedDie

@NautArch Curious. There must be a grace period where the database won't store it… or wait. Speaking of databases, the answer is always “blame caching”. It's probably not showing up in the deleted:yes search results yet because caching.

@NautArch Ah there it is. It's back.

1

Q: Can you counterspell a verbal spell?

So, D&D 5e, pvp. There is a level 20 sorcerer against a level 20 paladin. The level 20 sorcerer has counterspell. The level 20 paladin has command. Level 20 paladins get command as a bonus action. Does this mean that they are able to slip it into normal conversation. I am asking this one becau...