TRPG General Chat

1:00 PM

@ShadowKras while true, that's not really true. Yes, we let him take them away, but we also know there isn't an alternative.

ACuriousMind

As an isolated situation, it would be perfectly fine, but that's apparently not what's going on here

ShadowKras

@BESW shadow of the demon lord, dungeon crawl classics, maximum xcrawl, all of which are d20 based.

@NautArch couldnt you let someone outside as guard with all the weapons?

You had the option, its not like the GM said "Rock falls, all gear is taken away".

ACuriousMind

I feel you're trying to solve this one specific situation with in-game means, when the specific situation is not what (I think) NautArch was complaining about.

ShadowKras

@NautArch in your situation i would ask him "how could we have fought with our weapons?" instead of wondering if it was possible or not.

NautArch

@ShadowKras They were kind enough ot let us drop the weapons inside the temple by the door. The Barbarian refused and stayed outside. But yes, this GM styles basically is "rock falls, all gear is taken away". He's done it multiple times in this campaign and when we started an Iron Kingdoms, he did it there, too.

eimyr

1:02 PM

@ShadowKras "Give me all your money or die!" - were you robbed or did you, through conscious and well-informed choice, donate the money to Robber's Fund?

ShadowKras

Yeah i remember you telling me that story about your IK game

@NautArch the point im trying to reach here is: If that's your only option, create another option, break the that framework.

Iv been in a situation where my character was alone and unarmed against 11 enemies and managed to go completely against what the GM was planning for him.

NautArch

@ShadowKras There really isn't another option. The GM doesn't really allow for that creativity.

ShadowKras

Then, next time, force your way through the situation. Or run away and plan another approach.

BESW

This is rapidly approaching existentialist territory, whereby all negative experiences in life are your own fault for not killing yourself before they happened.

ShadowKras

If he is forcing the situation on you, you can force another situation on him.

doppelgreener

1:05 PM

@BESW i'm alarmed but i laughed

eimyr

@ShadowKras I know this is RPG.SE and the desire to answer questions or solve problems is real, but I don't think @NautArch is actually looking for solutions. Just discussing a situation, sharing experiences, offering stories to be heard.

ShadowKras

This GM im speaking about literally rolls the dice and says "i hope you die now"

@eimyr so am i. I am offering advice. But if that is unwelcome, i will stop.

BESW

It doesn't seem to acknowledge the power imbalance between a GM and the players in this kind of situation; you're basically arguing that their best bet is to, as players, outsmart the GM when he has ultimate control over the situation. The only way players can succeed at that gambit is if the GM is willing to pull his punches and at least pretend fairness.

nitsua60

@eimyr I've had some excellent co-GM experiences. In fact, I'm realizing the only co-GM experiences I've had were excellent ones. Don't give up on it--it can be great!

eimyr

@ShadowKras Not my call. I catch myself attempting to offer solutions onto people whose problems are only problems to me.

NautArch

1:07 PM

@ShadowKras It's not unwelcome, it's more that I've accepted that which I can change and what I cannot. I cannot change the DM, but I can work with what I"ve got. Accept it and have fun - and complain here about the other stuff :)

eimyr

@nitsua60 I'd be interested to learn how that can be achieved.

nitsua60

@eimyr Both times--different co-GMs--it was with large tables and newish players.

ShadowKras

Oh, another game @BESW, lamentations of the flame princess (which is a great game btw), but like the others, the book tells the GM to attempt to murder the characters.

BESW

@eimyr I recruited Trogdor as unofficial co-GM for D&D 4e; he was Rules Expert, Helper of Players With Their Characters, and Runner of Secondary Campaign When I Was Too Brain-Dead.

nitsua60

In one campaign my partner was the "story GM" running the interactions and combats, and I was circling the table working one-on-one with players. (Figuring out spells, gear, running time and initiative for combats; maybe more of "assistant GMing" in that case?)

BESW

1:10 PM

My original SG-13 campaign was going to have an ex-military co-GM help me with the Air Force stuff and battle tactics.

nitsua60

In the second one I and a (different) partner split the table-time: I was the show-runnner and the partner played the parts of all NPCs.

doppelgreener

@BESW thank goodness we don't have to worry too much about that

at least not now

Adam

Half-Life 2 Ending HD - Gman (1080p)

►

BESW

Sometimes I'll ask Troggy or Greener to help me design a session, and then as players they can help push certain buttons to make things go smoothly.

nitsua60

In both cases it was a hugely-helpful bit of load-sharing, which can be especially useful when impulsive student-players are hrowing chaos everywhere =)

BESW

1:12 PM

I've played campaigns in both D&D 3.5 and Fate where everybody took turns designing and running their own adventures in a serialised story.

In really big groups I'll stick somebody with a calming demeanor and rules familiarity at the far end of the table.

NautArch

@BESW We've been doing an alternate game where we've done that. It's given us experience to learn more aout DMing and practice.

it's been a lot of fun and has worked well

and now another play will be the DM once this campaign is over to lead a new campagin.

BESW

Yeah, in the more recent round-robin-GMing campaign we've been better about accompanying each other as GMs and sharing the learning.

In the first version, many years ago, we sorta let each person figure it out on his own. This led to things like a group of mid-level adventurers facing four Tarrasques at once.

doppelgreener

ooer.

that doesn't sound level-appropriate

nitsua60

@BESW that sounds like a violation of the Law of Conservation of The Tarrasque =)

BESW

Most of us survived by virtue of having exploited a "bug" in the group's understanding of equivalent level adjustments.

But no, it was not level-appropriate by any stretch of the imagination.

@nitsua60 Yes. Yes, it was.

trogdor

1:17 PM

@doppelgreener that doesn't seem level appropriate for any normal sized group even

BESW

(And now I'm remembering our Far Realm Egg theory of reality.)

trogdor

imagine only having one wish spell prepared on hand to keep one dead

BESW

@trogdor "Damnit, I only have one Ring of Three Wishes!"

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 What, pray tell, is the Law of Conservation of the Tarrasque?

trogdor

@doppelgreener there is always one, you kill it? it will come back later

but there is also usually only one

as I understand it

doppelgreener

1:19 PM

that would make sense

BESW

Yeah, the Tarrasque is a unique, singular creature who exists in the prime plane of each multiverse hub.

doppelgreener

@BESW the one where Reality is basically the Tarrasque's egg for it to consume, and once it's done eating literally everything in the cosmos it'll finally hatch?

BESW

Yup.

doppelgreener

i like that one.

BESW

Each entire multiverse is a single egg laid in the unreality of the Far Realm, for the sole purpose of nurturing a tarrasque until it hatches. Aberrations and Far Realm beings are parasites, symbiotes, and babysitters.

eimyr

1:22 PM

@nitsua60 so it's not really co-GMing, rather GM and a technical helper

nitsua60

@doppelgreener The "one"ness of the Tarrasque.

@eimyr The first situation I described was more like that; the second really was co-. Even when it didn't look like it at the table (though I think it did), the partner and I had many lunches discussing how to handle things, debriefing after sessions, designing dungeons, &c.

doppelgreener

@BESW I'm keen on the group re-stabilising and taking another look at Amaterasu. It's been a while, so we might choose to move on and do something else, but I'd be interested to revisit it. :D

eimyr

so what do you do if there's a difference in GM-intention between you?

nitsua60

We'd also sometimes split the table and run separately, texting back-and-forth to keep world and time synchronized, so the tables could come back together in harmony.

BESW

@doppelgreener The re-stabilising bit is a problem; Raycia's still unsure of her schedule week to week.

nitsua60

1:24 PM

(Or chaos, because these are teenagers.)

@eimyr Talk, if it's out of session. Follow one's lead, if in-session.

doppelgreener

@BESW Gotcha. Dan hasn't been around at Skypes, and Ben's been rolling rocks.

BESW

Yeah. Ben's not a big problem though. He's historically chill to just slip into whatever we've got going on.

eimyr

@nitsua60 was it worth it? I feel like there's more to lose than to gain from such an arrengement.

nitsua60

@eimyr It was awesome. I loved it, and would do it again in a heartbeat.

BESW

Not that anyone else isn't, push comes to shove, but Ben makes it a point to be the guy who can slip in and out without making ripples.

trogdor

1:27 PM

@BESW so this implies there are some Far Realm monsters literally only hanging around to help the Tarrasque?

nitsua60

(With either of those partners.)

BESW

@trogdor Yup. Or try to eat it. But a lot of them are just sucking on the yolk.

trogdor

hah, eat the Tarrasque, how hilarious

doppelgreener

[ponder] Could life & divinities be an evolved egg immune system?

nitsua60

@eimyr I think it certainly helped that we'd both played under each other (in both pairings) and both liked each others' strengths and saw ways we complement each other? So we came into it with the "hey, I'm not good at ___ but you are, and I think I do ___ better than you" attitude.

BESW

1:28 PM

@doppelgreener That seems reasonable. And this re-casts star pact warlocks in a new light.

eimyr

@nitsua60 I'm mostly playing indies now, which don't seem to entertain the idea or are GMless in the first place. I'd be willing to observe it in action, if given opportunity.

trogdor

@doppelgreener also, if we do this, I have a group of maybe 3 or 4 sessions I would want to run at some point, I have mentioned it before, but I just wanted to re-iterate that

and off to the place of sleeping it is for me now

BESW

....now I kinda want to make a microRPG about co-GMing.

doppelgreener

@trogdor Goodnight!

nitsua60

@eimyr Even if it doesn't contemplate--which, let's be clear, none of the D&Ds do, either--I think it's a matter of looking at another GM and seeing a puzzle-piece that complements you. Like a good puzzle, there's no point to forcing it. But when it CLICK!s, that sure feels nice.

doppelgreener

1:30 PM

@trogdor woo! i'm looking forward to that one. I'll probably bring Cassandra, the alchemist, to them. :D

nitsua60

(I've also had practice setting up and working in these arrangements co-teaching, so that might help?)

Gotta run--back in a bit!

BESW

Co-GMing the way you're thinking of it, @eimyr, is kinda like finding a drift-compatible pilot to operate a jaeger with you.

eimyr

@BESW AFAIR it was done by sharing personal drama and at great personal risk

BESW

Aye. You have to find someone you can let into your head, and trust, and you have to maintain the relationship both on and off duty.

That kind of sympatico rarely just happens but it can't be forced either. It can be cultivated though.

And yeah, it can crash and burn hard if you get out of sync.

eimyr

And it requires plenty of available time to maintain the connection, lest you're alone, trying to figure this monster out on your own, bleeding and exhausted.

BESW

1:41 PM

Yup.

I've had that level of sympatico a couple of times, with people who I'd spend hours with almost every day.

But even then, not all of those people were folks I'd co-GM with on that simultaneous level.

I did once get a friend fully briefed on the game scenario and let him loose for special one-on-one sessions with each player.

Dr R Dizzle

Does anyone know of a quick and easy way to generate the shape of an island?

Beyond simply drawing a freehand circle with some wiggly bits.

BESW

@DrRDizzle Macaroni.

4

nitsua60

@BESW Cultivated is a great term for it. Partner #2 and I were friends for ten years and had played with/under each other for three before giving it a try.

Dr R Dizzle

@BESW That's both a) hilarious and b) surprisingly useful. Thanks!

BESW

@DrRDizzle Or do what I do, and grab an existing map.

ShadowKras

1:45 PM

@DrRDizzle depends on the shape of the island we are talking about

Dr R Dizzle

This only needs to be a roughly 100sq mile island.

BESW

How many of your players are going to recognise the geography of Easter Island? Or Wake Atoll?

Dr R Dizzle

@BESW I would hazard a guess at 0

BESW

Also I have The Dictionary of Imaginary Places, which is awesome.

Use Robinson Crusoe's island, for example.

Or Caspak and Oo-Oh.

If you want to make it an easter egg they might actually notice, use Treasure Island.

This map was originally Harrington's Commonwealth of Oceana.

nitsua60

@DrRDizzle Second both of those =)

BESW

2:14 PM

This map started its life as a sketch of the Gulf of Mexico.

eimyr

@BESW Have you tried using Homm3 map editor to create fantasy maps?

nitsua60

@BESW Seems like that map started its live as isometric graph paper =)

BESW

This map imagines Dinotopia as a peninsula rather than an island.

@nitsua60 I translated the original sketch into the Caesar III mapmaker.

@eimyr Nope. Haven't made full maps in a rather long time.

Dr R Dizzle

I might just use the Isle of Wight.

BESW

A lot of my recent campaigns have been able to use modified Google Maps.

eimyr

2:18 PM

@BESW It works very very well on a rather intimate scale, where you would portray a few cities and areas between them, but not much more.

BESW

Anyway, sleep nao. [thud]

Dr R Dizzle

My players are going to do a Hunger Games type thing, and the way I'm running it is by having a 10x10 mile island divided into a grid of about a mile squared. Each time they travel as a group, they move one grid place up/right/diagonal/whatever. Some grid places will have encounters, some won't. Whenever they movie around, so will the other competitors.

eimyr

@DrRDizzle Make sure to remove some squares periodically to force them to meet each other

Dr R Dizzle

@eimyr They have to be at a tower at the centre of the island within three days to pass the test. So everyone will come together over time anyway.

@eimyr Although something more immediate might raise the stakes a little. Might have an electricity field close in or something.

The Oracle

2:49 PM

2

Q: Are questions about specific details found in RPG-based novels on topic?

Inspired by this question, are questions that ask about a specific detail (like, for example, the color of a creature's blood) or specific incident (like how a specific action could occur) on topic when the question springs from a novel (or other work of fiction) that takes place in a role-playin...

Premier Bromanov

3:20 PM

Have you guys ever used the (the name escapes me, Dungeon something? it's D6 based) system where you allow players to roll for saving throws and/or skill checks using any stat they want as long as they can justify it? Good idea? bad idea?

sorry, in the context of DnD 5e

Dr R Dizzle

@PremierBromanov Roll for Shoes?

Actually, now I reread your description, that doesn't sound right. Carry on.

NautArch

@PremierBromanov Iron Kingdoms has a bit of that (it's d6 based, but may not be what you're thinking of)

Dr R Dizzle

whistles nonchalantly

NautArch

but in general, the risk is that it can be pretty easy to bypass the harder saves with a good rationalization.

and good rationalizations aren't hard to do

What you're doing, in effect, is minimizing the importance of tradeoffs during character creation (choosing to prioritize some statistics over others)

Premier Bromanov

true, what about skill checks? might empower players to be more flexible

hmm

NautArch

3:26 PM

the rules have it built in to 'allow' for that

I think as long as you don't let everything get approved it's okay, but then you may ahve table disagreements on your interpreation of their rationalization

instead - YOU can offer alternate skill checks that you think make sense in a given situation. WHether or not they apply to someone's proficiencies isn't your problem :)

ACuriousMind

@PremierBromanov With a bit of creativity that sounds like a D&D player would describe the Defy Danger move from Dungeon World while misunderstanding the whole point of the system ;)

Premier Bromanov

What if, rather than picking a skill, they just pick an attribute. Like, maybe you have a bad intimidation mod, but one could allow you to use your base strength instead?

@ACuriousMind Dungeon World I think is exactly what I was thinking of

i only played it once though

NautArch

@PremierBromanov I thought that was what you were asking :)

If Strength makes sense in that situation - you could offer it. However, think you'd need to think about how it would work and what a reaction may be to it.

Premier Bromanov

@NautArch maybe a good tradeoff for encouraging my players to RP, rather than kill everything lol

NautArch

For instance - I want to use Intimidate (STR) to convince X. What are you using your STR for? Are you breaking something? If so, then set a DC for it, and have him roll. Still a chance he borks it (which would be funny)

But if the idea is "I'm big and strong, I want to use STR instead of CHA because i'm flexing..." that's still CHA. STR is a physical act (in my mind.)

@PremierBromanov But you know your players and if you give them options on how to proceed it kind of teaches them how to do it later but for now you still maintain control of the options and don't have to say "no" to them until they've learned from you how it works.

Premier Bromanov

3:33 PM

@NautArch Ahh, i like that. keep the physical apart from the mental

flexing by itself is still charisma

ACuriousMind

@PremierBromanov Ah, okay. In general, transplanting only parts of DW to other systems doesn't work very well. In particular transplanting the moves to other games is rarely possible because the basic conceit of DW is that the players don't get to choose the moves - you don't say "I want to roll +WIS" and then come up with a justification, you just say what you do and then the DM (or the table) decides that that sounds like an action that triggers Defy Danger rolling +WIS.

NautArch

@PremierBromanov But think about how someone might react (which I guess is the same for any skill test). Say you're trying to intimidate a shopkeeper into a lower price with STR. If you do break something...was it the shopkeepers property? Does he keep iron bars in his bag for this circumstance, etc.)

Premier Bromanov

@ACuriousMind so basically it's already there in DnD

NautArch

@ACuriousMind That's a great idea!

ACuriousMind

@PremierBromanov In a DnD game that focuses on uh, "narrative consistency" (Skill rolls only being called for after the player has described the character's action that is being adjudicated by the roll in fictional detail) rather than mechanics (Skill rolls being called for because a player says "I want to use skill X"), this will be already there, yes.

@NautArch Dungeon World is great to learn (DM) habits that many other games implicitly expect you to develop because a lot of it is an explicit part of the rules.

NautArch

3:43 PM

@ACuriousMind I think I need to look into DW :)

...downloading play sheets to read...

ACuriousMind

@NautArch The nice thing is that the play sheets are everything the players need, apart from 2d6. The DM should have read the full rules, though.

NautArch

ah - okay. Not sure i'll invest in buying that...

ACuriousMind

@NautArch You don't need to buy it

The full rules are online as an SRD here, and you can also find PDF versions of that

The thing you'd be paying for would be the illustrated rules, or just supporting the creators, but nothing about the game system itself is unavailable if you don't want to pay anything just yet

NautArch

4:00 PM

oh cool!

thanks!

eimyr

@ACuriousMind I'm pretty sure the whole point of PbtA, Dungeon World included is to have literally everything you need to know or do as a GM in the rules and particularly mechanics.

ACuriousMind

Yup, I agree

eimyr

The strength of PbtA games is that for them to work as intended you must follow the GMing section of the book to the letter, with religious adherence - but on the flipside, you don't have to bring any additional skill with you to run an awesome game.

ACuriousMind

Well, you need the skill to be actually good at the sort of improvisation these rules demand from you. It's one thing to Reveal An Unwelcome Truth, it's another to come up with the truth in the first place ;)

I don't think PbtA really teaches you how to be good at that, but then, I don't know what does except for simple practice

eimyr

Well, any truth can usually do when you need to reveal it

as long as it's unwelcome

that's the point, that if you manage to do exactly what the title says - reveal - unwelcome - truth - then you've done enough

GreySage

4:36 PM

@eimyr "You open your lunch box and discouver, instead of banana slices, you have plantain slices!"

eimyr

5:02 PM

@GreySage i think this one is from Monsterhearts

Premier Bromanov

5:27 PM

@ACuriousMind We played it at a local brewery and were all new to DW. The start up is very quick and it was fun

Zachiel

6:24 PM

@ACuriousMind And that's why I don't GM PbtA games

(Also, I like pre.digesting pre-written stories and being the one that presents them to my players, rather than the one that discovers stories on the go.)

godskook

PbtA?

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