English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

1:13 AM

One of Zeno paradoxes contains a phrase " they travel with equal velocity in opposite directions". How is that possible if velocity contains both speed and direction? That is how velocities are different from speeds in English. Equal velocities therefore must have the same direction, I suppose. Is it a type? How can there be a typo in the most prominent piece of human heritage?

Cerberus

@LittleAlien I think there are different definitions of velocity.

You assume definition A, while the text assumes definition B.

Little Alien

Yes, proabably. This means that speed= velocity in general.

Cerberus

I wouldn't be surprised.

Færd

2:04 AM

English poetry intimidates me. I don't know where to begin.

Or maybe I have begun, since I was best interested in poetic lyrics with literary value when I used to listen to songs.

Cerberus

Hello.

Færd

Hi!

Cerberus

Why does it intimidate you?

As you say, songs are poetry.

Færd

They are simple poetry?

Cerberus

Perhaps.

Poetry is rhythmic language.

So it depends on the song.

Færd

2:13 AM

Whenever I pick up a serious poetry book, I have a very hard time to plow through.

Cerberus

Ah.

How about the Odyssey?

Shakespeare?

Færd

Not so afraid of the old Bard, fortunately.

Cerberus

Good.

Færd

Is that a good point to start reading poetry?

Cerberus

It is good poetry!

Færd

2:16 AM

Oh. All his works are poetry?

Cerberus

I'm not sure, but I think so.

Are they at all rhythmic?

Færd

I guess I have to listen to someone read tthem too, to grasp the rhythm, or begin to understand it.

I don't know if they are all rhythmic.

Cerberus

Watch a play on Youtube.

Færd

Nice suggestion.

Cerberus

That's how they're meant to be listened to.

Færd

2:19 AM

Or maybe it's better to read up on meter and rhythm first?

(not my style of learning something though)

Cerberus

I think watching a play is best.

> Shakespeare used prose to tell us something about his characters by interrupting the rhythmic patterns of the play. Many of Shakespeare’s low-class characters speak in prose to distinguish them from the higher-class, verse-speaking characters. However, this should be treated as a general “rule of thumb”.

Færd

Ah. I see.

Well, thanks!

Tonepoet

I tried to back an Original Pronunciation Kickstarter once. It failed to get funding though. =\

Cerberus

> It is interesting that some plays like Much Ado About Nothing are written almost entirely in prose – an exceptionally brave move for an Elizabethan playwright.

@Tonepoet A pity!

Færd

@Cerberus That wasn't written in English, was it? Was it an authoritative poetical translation that you had in mind when suggesting that?

Cerberus

2:24 AM

Nope.

I just felt like suggesting it.

Færd

:)

Mr_Green

4:06 AM

Hi

need help with sentence formation

My mac charger is missing. If someone took it, please return it back.

^ Is this fine?

Cerberus

@Mr_Green It's OK.

It's clear.

I'd leave out back.

Because back is already included in return.

Mr_Green

yeah thanks

`My mac charger is missing. If someone took it, please return it`
`PS: it is almost out of juice`

@Cerberus how this sounds?

Cerberus

It = my mac charger.

Mr_Green

My mac charger is missing. If someone took my mac charger, please return it

like this?

ha I got the charger :D

Cerberus

4:26 AM

Oh!

Someone brought it back to you?

You found it in your own bag or drawer?

Mr_Green

someone brought it back

before I put a mail to everyone

anyway for future reference. you meant like this right?

11 mins ago, by Mr_Green

My mac charger is missing. If someone took my mac charger, please return it

Cerberus

It's OK.

SmokeDetector

5:22 AM

[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword with a link in answer: Is "et al." acceptable for citations with exactly two authors? by mariesolo on english.stackexchange.com …

Anonymous

7:31 AM

@LittleAlien That is the way velocity was originally used.

Anonymous

The modern scientific or mathematical use of velocity to mean 'speed and direction' is a more recent innovation, repurposing a synonym with a slightly different meaning so the two ideas can be easily expressed and distinguished.

Anonymous

That is my understanding, at any rate.

terdon

8:25 AM

Yeah, I didn't even know of the other meaning of velocity. The dictionary lists it as specific to physics. To me, velocity just means speed, no direction implied.

Faheem Mitha

8:41 AM

Which is better:

> the location you were residing in

or

> the location at which you were residing

?

@snailplane Yes, I think that's correct. For a while velocity was used to just mean speed.

But now it means speed + direction. A vector quantity, in other words.

Lawrence

@FaheemMitha Both are fine.

Faheem Mitha

@Lawrence Ok. Thank you.

Lawrence

:)

terdon

9:02 AM

@FaheemMitha Why not just your previous residence? But of the two, I prefer the first.

Faheem Mitha

@terdon Yes, "your previous residence" is good. Thanks.

Rejlan Givens

9:40 AM

hi

I have a quick question

A reporter will write his report with or without you.

I'm not sure if that sentence works

the meaning is that is better if you actively contribute to the story

to make the report you are interested in accurate

SmokeDetector

10:41 AM

[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in answer: A word for someone who gets scared easily by user187035 on english.stackexchange.com …

Lawrence

12:33 PM

Hi!

I'm thinking of answering the following question:

2

Q: Word to describe that task should happen in one way and one way only

I'm looking for an adjective that describes that tasks should be approached "one-ly". To give some context: [Task] must be performed in one way and exclusively one way. or There must exist precisely one method of performing [task]. I am looking for an adjective that describes this "one-ness"...

adjectives

They ask for an adjective to describe a task that should be performed in just one way. I'd like to say "programmed task" (or ugh preprogrammed task), but can't find a reference to the use of the word as an adjective. Typical dictionaries call programmed (or its present tense) a verb, which it is. There is, of course, great freedom in English to assign nontraditional parts of speech to words.

I'm just asking for a sanity check that I haven't missed something obvious here by calling programmed an adjective in the term programmed task.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:05 PM

@Lawrence When people want an adjective, what they usually want is any word that functions as an adjective. I'd say that past participles can function as adjectives.

Lawrence

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ok, thanks!

terdon

1:22 PM

Isn't something like painted an adjective as long as it is used as one? "Open the door? Which one? The painted one", for example.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

This gets into territory I'm not qualified to explain, but my understanding is that some classifications would say it is functioning as an adjective. Like how adjectives can function as nouns: The poor have nothing to eat.

Does poor become a noun? or merely function like one in that context?

Anonymous

It's more coherent theoretically if you distinguish category from function. Then you can talk about how both nouns and adjectives can function as attributive modifiers.

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Is there a difference?

Anonymous

And no, poor does not become a noun.

terdon

My (limited) understanding is that a noun is as a noun does.

@snailplane Oh? Why not?

Anonymous

1:35 PM

Try modifying it with very.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon yes. Because the fact that you can use a word for a particular function doesn't mean it has all the attributes of the class.

Anonymous

It's an adjective doing something adjectives do.

terdon

@snailplane In that case, isn't very poor the "noun" or noun phrase or whatchamacallit?

Anonymous

No, the very poor would be the noun phrase.

terdon

Yes, OK.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:36 PM

@terdon But nouns can't take very.

Anonymous

But that doesn't make poor a noun.

terdon

Hmm

Perhaps it makes it a poor noun?

Anonymous

:-)

terdon

Proving, yet again, that puns are the last refuge of the linguistically challenged.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

you misspelled "linguistically excellent"

Mitch

1:38 PM

@terdon Poor me another beer

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Drat!

@Mitch Hear you go.

Anonymous

CGEL introduces a concept called functional fusion, in which one constituent can have multiple functions simultaneously. In their analysis, poor is a fused modifier-head, simultaneously an attributive modifier and head of the noun phrase.

Anonymous

You could also explain it by ellipsis of the noun if you prefer.

Mitch

@terdon Noyce!

user208178

hi

Mitch

1:39 PM

@snailplane I prefer to be hyperbolic

Anonymous

Something like: The very poor ~~people~~

Mitch

The big and tall

The husky

terdon

Looks like I've been confused about this for a while now:

1

Q: Is "British" a noun or an adjective in "British PM"?

While reading through this question another occurred to me. If a headline reads British PM says no to inflatable cars. Is British a noun or an adjective? Granted, there are other noun forms of British but how about French in French PM says yes! The example from the original question q...

part-of-speech

Mitch

So are huskies the closest genetically to grey wolves?

Anonymous

On the other related topic, it isn't always possible to distinguish a participial form of a verb from a derived participial adjective.

Anonymous

1:41 PM

There's overlap between the two in function and form, and if in a given example there is no criterion to set the two apart, there's no reason to distinguish them.

Mitch

Or is it just coincidence in the canine radiations that they look so much like wolves and chihuahuas and teacup boxers can stlll mate just as well?

Anonymous

On the other hand, we can also point out that there are clear cases of one or the other where it's unambiguous, as in She was very surprised.

Mitch

It was a very surprising event

@terdon I sometimes look at old questions I've had, and they have really good definitive answers, and I'm still unsure of things.

Anonymous

Yes, so we can see in both of these examples that a participial adjective has been derived from a participial verb form, in one from the -ed form and in the other from the -ing form. Both types of derivation are common in English.

Anonymous

An example like It was broken is ambiguous, though.

Mitch

1:45 PM

POS shouldn't be straightjackets

terdon

@snailplane That is a verb, right?

Mitch

Technical words are intended to be though

so I'm conflicted

terdon

Meant verb.

Mitch

but not conflicting

Anonymous

And moments later, the window was broken by a baseball! ← Here, broken is definitely a verb form.

Mitch

1:46 PM

terdon, could be an adjective, could be a verb.

terdon

@snailplane OK. But what is it in fix the broken window?

Wouldn't you call that an adjective?

Anonymous

Yes, I would.

Mitch

I can interpret it both ways, where one is describing the state of the window (implying the window being discussed was a broken window) or that an action occurred and what happened was that someone broke the window.

@terdon me too.

terdon

OK. But if we take it as an adjective, doesn't that mean that broken, at least in that example, is an adjective?

Anonymous

Yes, broken can be an adjective.

Anonymous

1:48 PM

English has lots of adjectives derived from participial verb forms.

terdon

And a noun as well? The broken are a sad sight

Or is that still an adjective?

There's a specific word form for that sort of thing in other languages.

Anonymous

It didn't look broken to me. ← This is unambiguously an adjective.

Anonymous

That is an adjective.

Anonymous

I'm typing these things from my phone, so I'm sorry I'm not linking the messages properly to the messages I'm replying to.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@snailplane Do you see the updated mobile chat ui? it allows linking now

Anonymous

1:55 PM

It's better in terms of functionality but harder on the eyes, so I avoid using it.

Anonymous

This is easier for me to read :-)

user208178

@Mitch Nice wall o' text.

Mitch

2:10 PM

@Arrowfar I endeavour to give satisfaction

If you need something to make lifting objects better you'd want a ...

lever endeavor

and if the one for your baby's pacifier isn't so good you'd have a...

rather meager lever endeavor teether

one more...if you want to talk about this the you'd have a...

rather meager lever endeavor teether palaver

> I find this a silly game, sir.
This game makes my tongue quite lame, sir.

terdon

@Mitch Mr Geisel, is that you?

Mitch

Loose lips sink ships, sink drips loosens grips

@terdon Fox in Socks

Suck on that, Shakespeare!

terdon

Oh wow. It seems strange all laid bare like that with nary an illustration in sight.

Mitch

The pictures add to it, but it stands well on its own.

Dr. Seuss did both words and pictures.

Wait...he wasn't really a doctor, was he?

wiki to the rescue

No. Not a real doctor.

I was thinking pathology or infectious skin disease

Oh, tip to the wise. Don't ever open a dermatology atlas. You will want to close it quickly.

There are some things you can't unsee

user208178

2:26 PM

@Mitch heh nice, the whole time I was reading that wall o' text I was thinking <cough> geek <cough> :-)

user208178

I hope you don't mind my humour :)

Mitch

I realize that works for pretty much everything you've ever seen but still, trust me. You're at a coffee table and there are two huge coffee table books, one is Atlas of Diseases of the Skin (Full Color), and the other is Pretty Flowers of the Tropics. I know its a hard choice but lean towards the latter.

@Arrowfar haha. anything else would be inaccurate.

user208178

lol

user208178

howdy @KitZ.Fox you are quiet today.

Kit Z. Fox

I'm working in other places at the moment. Hi @Arrowfar,

user208178

2:34 PM

I see. good luck with the work!

Mitch

If you said say 'Wow, what an athlete', I'd respond, thinking you were contradictory, you are...

in thrall to an unearthly ethereal dialethic athlete

user208178

btw "good luck with the work" and "good luck with your work" both are equally polite right?

user208178

just curious

Mitch

and sphygmomanometer

@Arrowfar yes

user208178

I see, thanks.

Mitch

2:39 PM

the difference is hardly noticeable

user208178

so I have asked zero questions on the main site since I came back.

Mitch

ask one about ...

wow, that's hard to come up with a good question.

Ooh..here's one... what's wrong with the british?

Wait, that came out wrong.

What articulatory phenomena led to the phonological contexts in which the bath-trap split occurs?

(followed by a fricative is I think the shortest context)

I read a paper once, entitled "F", a study of the distribution of the labio-dental fricative across all languages (some have it, some don't). The paper was well known (and I think recognized in the paper), as being a rare example of a sound change/phenomenon that could be ascribed to actual external cultural affairs, in this case the proposed explanation was agriculture/farming/eating of grains somehow connected with how you chew. Or something.

Which is to say that all those folk-explanations of sound changes coming from lazy uneducated people is a dumb explanation.

user208178

3:01 PM

I know. I'm mostly just hang around in chats and take a look at the main site sometimes. It is fun to keep a tab open in the browser where I could talk in writing.

Kit Z. Fox

Another bunch of shootings in Florida. Did I miss something, or is it just hitting the news now?

user208178

oh that sucks. I didn't check the news.

Kit Z. Fox

At least two kids were killed.

terdon

@KitZ.Fox If only the kids had guns, this could all have been averted.

Or hasn't trump said that yet?