English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@Cerberus I am supposed to finish this year and I am sick and tired of it — the only motivation I have nowadays is "you've come this far, you can't quit now."

Cerberus

@Kosmonaut Ah, yes, my other friend is in that exact phase too.

But what you have so far does not displease you?

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Does that mean your friend's problem is knowing you? ;)

Cerberus

I mean, my first friend is in the phase "I've got nothing".

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus Yes, it does. I think that's often true for people in this stage too though.

Cerberus

4:13 PM

@kiamlaluno Ehh how does that work?

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus I don't know. You said two of your friends are in a static phase. Now, what do they both have in common? ;)

Cerberus

@Kosmonaut Oh, yes. Absolutely. But there are semi-finished chapters, and your professor thinks you're doing well enough?

@kiamlaluno Oh, haha.

It must be I.

The only other teeny little thing they have in common is this dissertation thing—but that can't be it.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus You said it. ;)

@Cerberus Are they dissenting about hoops?

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus Yes. But the worst is still ahead, and I dislike it more and more. Now that I have a kid, I fantasize about working in a "normal" job where I go in and do work for somebody else, and then at home I am free.

Cerberus

@kiamlaluno I don't think they are dissenting at all.

@Kosmonaut That fantasy does sound very appealing. But why do you say the worst is still ahead?

@Frank: Yes, I am a Microsoft clerk. I work in the Microsoft genius bar or something. Okay that is a lie—I'm just a loyal XP user.

kiamlaluno

4:17 PM

@Cerberus OK, are they doing that thing about hoops?

Cerberus

The hoops are confusing you, eh?

Wrapping themselves around your mind.

kiamlaluno

No, I am fine with hoops, as long as I can use them to make beer.

Now I can reply to J…

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus As you progress on something huge like a dissertation, you work on what you can and flag other things for later. Tying up all the loose ends is the most difficult part. The chapters that are left are the ones which will be the most painful.

kiamlaluno

@JasperLoy That is. I normally read English; it's rare I speak it. Well, except I am sending an email to somebody I know, and I am saying what I want to write loudly.

Kosmonaut

That's how it ends up for me anyway.

kiamlaluno

4:20 PM

Dissertation, that is!

Cerberus

@Kosmonaut Oh, yes, that is true. But still: perhaps all those flags aren't that important after all.

kiamlaluno

So, what is the verb for dissertation?

Cerberus

Perhaps they are like browser tabs with pages that you still had to read. Or e-mails that you starred: at some point they drop from the first screen, and answering them doesn't appear to be so important as it used to.

@kiamlaluno Dis.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus That means something else.

Robusto

@Kosmonaut Heya.

KitFox

4:23 PM

@kiamlaluno Shit.

@KitFox Ship?

@kiamlaluno Hmm...

@Kos You're back!

@kiamlaluno No, shit. You shit a dissertation.

kiamlaluno

@KitFox Ooooh, right. You ship a ship, and hoop hoops.

Robusto

4:25 PM

@Kosmonaut Haha, I congratulate you on your sense of humor. The juxtaposition of the ideas of "freedom" and "children" is really quite droll.

kiamlaluno

Then it should be s*t s*ts.

Cerberus

@Robusto Relative freedom. A dissertation finished off means one child fewer to serve.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Guys, after getting my enforcer armor, I equipped mad swag items.

kiamlaluno

@Robusto Why? Children are free.

Sonic The Hedgehog

i'll get the pic in the sec

Robusto

4:26 PM

@Cerberus But children are your relatives.

@kiamlaluno Maybe in Italy. In the U.S. it costs an average of $300,000 to raise a child to adulthood.

KitFox

Ambush!

Cerberus

Awwww.

lies disarmed

KitFox

Excellent.

Robusto

@KitFox $600,000 worth of children.

Cerberus

@Robusto Huh?

kiamlaluno

4:27 PM

@Robusto Yeah, but that is not for children to pay. :) Children are free, which doesn't mean they are free for their parents.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@kit your kids?

Kosmonaut

@Robusto There is nothing like the final stages of a dissertation to completely change your perspective on freedom.

KitFox

@Robusto I'm hoping to get more than that, but they are already kind of old.

Cerberus

I thought they estimated it at € 1,000,000 here.

KitFox

@SonicTheHedgehog Yes.

Robusto

4:28 PM

@Cerberus My data may be dated. Or dataed. Or something.

KitFox

@Kosmonaut That's one of the reasons I bailed on mine.

Cerberus

Possibly so.

Kosmonaut

@KitFox Your children?????

Cerberus

She sold them on Ebay.

Kosmonaut

How could you!!??

Cerberus

4:29 PM

They send her pictures every month.

Robusto

@Kosmonaut Well, hang tough. It's not forever.

Cerberus

Part of the deal.

KitFox

@Kosmonaut Haha. My dissertation. I haven't found any takers for my children yet.

They are very sweet and charming.

Cerberus

Sorry, I don't have the money at the moment.

kiamlaluno

Look who is hidden over there.

Cerberus

4:30 PM

I'm sure they're worth it.

Robusto

@KitFox Maybe that is the problem. Maybe if dissertations were sweet and charming they wouldn't be so odious.

@KitFox I used to say that kids are just charming enough that you don't kill them.

Kosmonaut

@Robusto I'm afraid to ask why you don't say that anymore.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwightАΑA Stop reminding of votes. I promise I will vote you, OK. ;)

Kosmonaut

"Then they became teenagers."

Robusto

@Kosmonaut Haha, because mine grew up. They're no longer charming, but I don't have to witness that on a daily basis now.

Kosmonaut

4:33 PM

@Robusto Lucky for my parents, I'm still charming to this day.

That's what I tell them, anyway.

Robusto

@Kosmonaut I'll wait till I get their sworn affidavit as to the truth of your claim.

Cerberus

Same.

Kosmonaut

@Robusto I'm not lying. I really do have parents.

Robusto

@Kosmonaut Now I need two sworn affidavits.

Kosmonaut

And a partridge in a pear tree.

Robusto

4:35 PM

I don't want to wait for Christmas.

Oh, @Kosmonaut. See if you think this is a dumb question:

1

Q: Is it possible for a non-native version of a language to be classed as a dialect?

I know pretty much what constitutes a dialect for native speakers of a language, but I wonder if countries that don't speak it as a primary language, but have a large segment of the population that is required to speak it for one reason or another — can it be said of such countries that they spea...

dialects

I asked in chat and people weren't sure. So I asked on Linguistics.SE.

Anyway, good to see you again, gotta go to lunch. Laters!

Cerberus

Bye!

Kosmonaut

blogthings.com/areyoucharmingquiz/results/…

Cerberus

I feel that in the end there is no hard distinction between a "native" dialect and a foreign "dialect".

KitFox

throws panties @Kosmonaut

Kosmonaut

@Robusto It's an interesting question.

KitFox

4:39 PM

Wha—? How did that happen?

Kosmonaut

@KitFox Happens to me all the time

Cerberus

This is too easy.

ΜετάEd

throws panties @Cerberus

kiamlaluno

What about somebody not wearing panties?

Cerberus

Excuse me?

KitFox

4:41 PM

Well, I am not wearing any, now that I've thrown them @Kosmo.

tchrist

pants

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus I think you can make a useful distinction between native and non-native language use, but you can and do get into a gray area in the middle.

Cerberus

@Kosmonaut I agree.

tchrist

chalks another score up to serendipity’s whims

Cerberus

But fundamentally they are not really different.

Structurally.

kiamlaluno

4:42 PM

I got offended; nobody thrown me panties, not even my girlfriend.

ΜετάEd

@kiamlaluno My panties are already forsaken.

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus I think there is a certain fundamental difference; the brain seems to handle the two differently.

Cerberus

@Kosmonaut Hmm how so?

Kosmonaut

So, a second language acquired at age 18 is not mapped in the brain the same way as a second language learned from early childhood.

Cerberus

In which situation? Learning a different dialect v. learning a foreign language that is very close to your own?

KitFox

4:44 PM

Even very good NNSs translate before they speak.

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus I am talking about learning a second, distinct language.

Cerberus

@Kosmonaut Yes, there is something about age. But that is not essential to either process?

kiamlaluno

A dialect becomes a language when enough people talk it. See American English; nobody talked it, before the X century.

KitFox

But a places like India, it is more like being bilingual than a NNS, innit?

Cerberus

You could say that.

Mitch

4:45 PM

@ΜετάEd You should put on a clean pair. What if you were in a car accident?

Kosmonaut

@KitFox Linguists consider Indian English to be a full-fledged dialect of English.

There are native speakers of Indian English.

kiamlaluno

NNS = Not a Non-Sense?

ΜετάEd

@Mitch What I have on is clean.

Mitch

@KitFox I think that is what @Rob is getting at.

KitFox

@kiamlaluno Non-native speaker.

Cerberus

4:46 PM

You could take the fact that they started learning some English (I don't know how much) at an early age as an essential feature of Indian English.

ΜετάEd

NNS = Not Safe for Nuns

kiamlaluno

@KitFox Oh, SLS.

KitFox

@kiamlaluno Or TLS or FLS or NLS, etc.

kiamlaluno

I am a native speaker; it's all to see which language I speak.

Mitch

@ΜετάEd you got forsaken all over them. Really, stop complaining and go change.

You're not visiting your gramdmother like that.

Cerberus

4:47 PM

But then I started reading/listening/speaking English at a very early age too, though not very intensely: what counts as learning?

kiamlaluno

Maybe I am a FLS.

Cerberus

I need a better word than intensely there. grumbles

kiamlaluno

I can say I speak some Calabrian.

KitFox

@Cerberus Immersively?

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus Yes, it is more than just that.

Cerberus

4:48 PM

@KitFox That is a bit more specific than what I had in mind, I just meant I wasn't spending much time doing, nor much effort.

Kosmonaut

It can be really complicated, but there is definitely a distinction made, at least in the clear cases.

kiamlaluno

That means there isn't any Italian English. :)

Cerberus

@Kosmonaut So how much time do Indians spend learning English when they're young? And does their English, which I believe will rarely be their primary language, exhibit features that are very different from their peers who learned very little English as a child but started learning it more "immersively" at a later age?

@Kosmonaut Yes, in clear cases, it is a useful distinction.

ΜετάEd

@Mitch Hey @Cerberus, can I have my panties back? Mitch says I have to wash them and return them to my grandmother.

2

Cerberus

But I'm not sure how well it holds up to structural analysis, if you analyse the speech or writing or comprehension of two Indians one of whom spent more time and effort learning it at an earlier age, the other at a later age.

@ΜετάEd Oh, all right.

Kosmonaut

4:52 PM

@Cerberus I am not sure about the specifics on Indian English, but I believe it is used in certain domains in people's daily lives (not everyone's but a certain segment of the population). Not as the exclusive language, but as one of the languages. As to your second question, as far as I know: yes.

Cerberus

I suppose they do need washing.

@Kosmonaut Hmm...and yet superficially it all sounds very similar.

Almost creole-like, even though they don't use any non-English vocabulary.

But of course I haven't studied it.

Kosmonaut

@Cerberus Again, with Indian English I just don't know enough about it personally to really give you the meaty details.

@Cerberus Actually, they do a lot of code-switching, as I understand.

Code-switching

In linguistics, code-switching is the concurrent use of more than one language, or language variety, in conversation. Multilinguals—people who speak more than one language—sometimes use elements of multiple languages in conversing with each other. Thus, code-switching is the use of more than one linguistic variety in a manner consistent with the syntax and phonology of each variety. Code-switching is distinct from other language contact phenomena, such as borrowing, pidgins and creoles, loan translation (calques), and language transfer (language interference). Speakers form and establis...

Cerberus

@Kosmonaut Not even tikki massala?

@Kosmonaut Yes, no doubt—I meant when they speak to a foreigner, they don't. But that says little, I suppose.

@Kosmonaut Okay, I have a new question.

Suppose we take Indian English, a Scottish dialect, RP, and a lower-class dialect, like the typical Manchester dialect.

Kosmonaut

Okay.

Cerberus

And a Swede who speaks very good English, watched lots of non-dubbed English films as a child, spent years in England.

Does it make sense to set off the Swede against all the others?

And on what criteria?

Kosmonaut

5:00 PM

Well, are we comparing one Swede to these speech communities? Or is there a community of Swedes?

Cerberus

Or perhaps we should take a Frenchman: I want an accent that Englishmen will immediately recognise and are familiar with.

Kosmonaut

One speaker doesn't represent a dialect in any case.

Cerberus

@Kosmonaut There will be a community of Frenchmen in London who socialize together.

Kosmonaut

I think for some people who study dialects, it is useful to make a distinction.

But language proficiency is a continuum, so you can't just say "x y and z = native speaker"

Cerberus

@Kosmonaut Agreed.

@Kosmonaut Also agreed.

tchrist

5:04 PM

@Robusto He does he keep prattling on, doesn’t he? If I only I could find his coin-release, somebody could get wasted their nickel back.

Cerberus

But if you analyse these dialects/accents structurally, will some contrast come out between the Frenchmen and the rest?

kiamlaluno

Does anybody have popcorns for the TL room?

Cerberus

A contrast that would also appear if we took Germans instead.

Kosmonaut

Anyway, I need to go and try to force myself to accomplish something now.

Cerberus

@Kosmonaut Good luck!

Kosmonaut

5:11 PM

Thanks, bye!

Cerberus

Adieu!

ΜετάEd

"force myself". ponders

@Kosmonaut Buh bye!

5:38 PM

Haha, better!

Except that there are probably hundreds, nay, thousands of "one Gods".

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus no, there's just me

Cerberus

Oh, of course!

Matt Эллен

5:51 PM

:D

Vitaly

@MattЭллен the best part of any such enterprise for the onlookers is that it's so fascinating to try and understand how exactly they solved so many engineering problems, particularly the programming ones

e.g. how did they build a model of the landing area when the rover was taking pictures of it just before landing?

what exactly are the mathematical algorithms used to navigate using that model?

is that something on par with the later Project Euler problems, easier (and therefore more robust) or harder?

JSBձոգչ

6:19 PM

@MattЭллен this observation is the basis of the Society of Particular Atheists

(which consists of all people who disbelieve in at least one god)

Mahnax

Good afternoon, folks.

Mitch

@MattЭллен God will strike him down. Eventually.

Mahnax

@MattЭллен Haha, I love that. Seen it a few times before.

Matt Эллен

Heh. i saw it only just now. Ricky Jervais says some funny things.

Mahnax

Hey, did any of you hear about the shooting in Nigeria?

15 people are dead there.

Matt Эллен

6:28 PM

@Vitaly it's truly mind boggling.

@Mahnax no. That's terrible

Mahnax

Also, there was a shooting at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin the other day, six people died.

@MattЭллен Indeed. It's horrible.

simchona

@Mahnax "Hosted" seems a bit...off.

Mahnax

Yeah, I know. My word choice today is not particularly excellent.

Better?

simchona

Yup.

Matt Эллен

JSBձոգչ

6:31 PM

that is hideous

Matt Эллен

people are weird

why would you make a dog look like a panda?

Mahnax

Yecch.

JSBձոգչ

why would you have a dog, period?

Mahnax

Cats are way cooler.

JSBձոգչ

maybe you make it look like a panda so that you can get over your disappointment at only having a dog

Matt Эллен

6:32 PM

story about dog grooming

JSBձոգչ

@MattЭллен What. The. Fuck.

Matt Эллен

I know. the panda's not the weirdest thing

Mahnax

Heaven help us all.

shudders

Robusto

OK, I'm going to start flagging these perverted dog pictures. You have been warned.

Mahnax

I can't stand to look at that any longer anyways.

Cerberus

6:36 PM

Manila.

Sad.

Mahnax

Wow.

Cerberus

You already have nothing, and now you have...even less.

Nothing minus a "house".

Mahnax

My coworker's husband lives in Manila, I think.

Cerberus

Oh, dear.

Half the city is flooded.

Mahnax

That's quite the problem.

It's rather unfortunate, I'll have to find out if they're doing alright.

Cerberus

6:37 PM

Yeah.

Mahnax

I was just out grocery shopping.

Cerberus

Oh, I have to run.

Mahnax

Far and fast?

Matt Эллен

You up to no good again, @Cerb?

you're always on the run from someone

Mahnax

This time it's Poseidon.

Matt Эллен

6:40 PM

with his pitch fork! oh noes! run fast, Cerb

cornbread ninja

hello room!

Mahnax

Hi!

Matt Эллен

hello cornbread ninja

I tried to tab complete hello

cornbread ninja

@MattЭллен hello, my elected orc head

Matt Эллен

@cornbreadninja :D thanks for your support

still 15 minutes to go

Mahnax

6:45 PM

I may have voted for you too… :-)

cornbread ninja

I voted much like carlo, with the notable exception of also having voted for polka kitty :D

Matt Эллен

still 15 minutes to go, AFAIK. anything could happen!

cornbread ninja

it still says an hour. in previous stages, it was more accurate.

simchona

There's a polkaing kitty? WHERE?

Mahnax

We could be swept by a wave of rogue bounty hunters.

cornbread ninja

6:46 PM

@simchona you! poke-a-kitty

...polka kitty

Matt Эллен

oh, I mean 1 hour 15 minutes, stupid BST

simchona

@cornbreadninja Aww, you're sweet :]

Matt Эллен

@Mahnax yay!

cornbread ninja

there's a dive bar near my house called Flo's Poke-A-Dot Lounge

I want to fix their sign.

JSBձոգչ

i voted for myself... as second :). my first-place vote is a tightly guarded secret

cornbread ninja

6:47 PM

@Mahnax man, don't even joke about that! ;)

Mahnax

Misread.

Wait, the election ends at 20:00.

It's 18:48.

So it's not 15 minutes, it's a little more than an hour.

cornbread ninja

So... 4PM Eastern

9PM GMT

Matt Эллен

3 mins ago, by Matt Эллен

oh, I mean 1 hour 15 minutes, stupid BST

Mahnax

@cornbreadninja Wot?

cornbread ninja

1PM PKT

Matt Эллен

6:50 PM

@cornbreadninja 8pm GMT

9pm BST

cornbread ninja

@MattЭллен >_<

Matt Эллен

yeah, if only BST were a thing of the past

cornbread ninja

20:00 UTC

@Mahnax I sit corrected.

Mahnax

@cornbreadninja Ah.

cornbread ninja

elekshuns!

Mahnax

6:52 PM

There should be a countdown timer.

cornbread ninja

Is Rachel destined to be in here forever, or will the room let her free eventually?

Matt Эллен

only when her browser stops responding to the chat room

cornbread ninja

OIC

Matt Эллен

I'm not sure if she has to have this room open, or any room and just not leave this one

ΜετάEd

@Robusto Perverted dogs?

Robusto

6:55 PM

@ΜετάEd Don't ask.

ΜετάEd

@Robusto Much too late.

cornbread ninja

@ΜετάEd ...for goodbye?

Jez

@JSBձոգչ One analysis might be half [of] a dozen books, but another might be half-a-dozen books, similar to strawberry-blonde hair

Mahnax

@cornbreadninja alt+0151

JSBձոգչ

@Jez that's true, and i think that your analysis is probably more accurate for colloquial speech.

nonetheless, my analysis is what the grammar books have

cornbread ninja

6:58 PM

@Mahnax !

JSBձոգչ

afaik

Mahnax

@cornbreadninja Hm?

cornbread ninja

@Mahnax surely that's why I was voted down :P

Mahnax

@cornbreadninja Haha.

Don't worry, I fixed it.

cornbread ninja

@Mahnax thank you.

Mahnax

6:59 PM

@cornbreadninja Anytime.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…