English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo
Gollum was captured in Mordor in the year 3017 and taken Barad-dûr, and there questioned and tormented. When he had learned what he could from him, Sauron released him and sent him forth again. He did not trust Gollum, for he divined something indomitable in him, which could not be overcome, even by the Shadow of Fear, except by destroying him. But Sauron perceived the depth of Gollum's malice towards those that had "robbed" him, and guessing that he would go in search of them to avenge himself, Sauron ho…

The archaic version of the Fall of Gondolin is on pp 146–197 of the paperback of the Book of Lost Tales 2.

Cerberus

4:07 AM

@tchrist Hmm this sounds familiar.

So some version of this must be in the appendices or the S.

It is here.

It makes me sad.

Why?

Well, it's Gondolin! Gondolin cannot, must not fall.

tchrist

> “Here ends the SILMARILLION. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.”

> ‘It is a fair tale, though it is sad, as are all the tales of Middle-earth, and yet it may lift up your hearts.’

Quoth Strider, before singing a bit of the Tale of Tinúviel.

I only know one other non-native speaker who has delved as deeply into Tolkien. It is difficult enough for most post-literate native speakers.

Cerberus

4:15 AM

Tolkien is wildly popular all over the world.

He is read in translation by the young or the inexperienced.

Surely most people I know have read the LotR.

And dozens must have read the S.

tchrist

And Ulmo said: "O Tuor of the lonely heart, I will not that thou dwell for ever in fair places of birds and flowers; nor would I lead thee through this pleasant land, o but that so it must be. But fare now on thy destined journey and tarry not, for far from hence is thy weird set. Now must thou seek through the lands for the city of the folk called Gondothlim or the dwellers in stone, and the Noldoli shall escort thee thither in secret for fear of the spies of Melko.
Words I will set to your mouth there, and there you shall abide awhile. Yet maybe thy life shall turn again to the mighty wat…

"But fare now on thy destined journey and tarry not, for far from hence is thy weird set." is not an easy sentence for some.

We seldom use fare or weird that way any longer.

Cerberus

Fare is easy enough.

tchrist

For a Germanic speaker, perhaps.

You must read the archaic version.

Cerberus

Yes, knowing other Germanic languages certainly helps—but then most educated people do so.

tchrist

> There stood the house of the Golden Flower who bare a rayed sun upon their shield, and their chief Glorfindel bare a mantle so broidered in threads of gold that it was diapered with celandine as a field in spring; and his arms were damascened with cunning gold.

Cerberus

4:20 AM

But, yes, reading the archaic version is not so easy for the inexperienced.

tchrist

That is the Glorfindel, of course.

Cerberus

There is but one, isn't there?

tchrist

That is correct.

Cerberus

The word celandine I know not.

tchrist

Do you remember the White Tower of Ecthelion, in Gondor?

Cerberus

4:21 AM

Everybody knows Glorfindel was sent back to Middle Earth, and it was the same soul who fought in Gondolin.

tchrist

> Then came there from the south of the city the people of the Fountain, and Ecthelion was their lord, and silver and diamonds were their delight; and swords very long and bright and pale did they wield, and they went into battle to the music of flutes.

Cerberus

I remember the name.

tchrist

> Etymology: ME. celydoine, a. OFr. celidoine:-late L. celidonia, Lat. chelidonia (-onium), ad. Gr. χελιδόνιον, f. χελιδών swallow. In reference to the name, ancient writers stated that the flower appeared at the time of the arrival of the swallows, and withered at their departure. The story of the use made of the juice by swallows (see quot. 1601 in 1 a) was probably suggested by the name. For the intrusive n cf. messenger, passenger.

That was the original Ecthelion.

> Behind them came the host of the Harp, and this was a battalion of brave warriors; but their leader Salgant was a craven, and he fawned upon Meglin. They were dight with tassels of silver and tassels of gold, and a harp of silver shone in their blazonry upon a field of black; but Salgant bore one of gold, and he alone rode into battle of all the sons of the Gondothlim, and he was heavy and squat.

Cerberus

I did not remember the Greek word, if I ever knew it.

tchrist

“Dight”.

Equipped, fitted.

Cerberus

4:24 AM

Yes, I don't know dight, but it must mean "decorated" or something.

Jinx.

tchrist

Yes, it is obvious from the context, but it is an old word, and has had many meanings.

> 10. To clothe, dress, array, deck, adorn (lit. and fig.). † to dight naked, to undress, strip. In this sense the pa. pple. dight is used by Sir Walter Scott, and in later poetic and romantic language: it appears to be often taken as an archaic form of decked.

Cerberus

If only I knew its etymology, I would probably understand it well enough.

tchrist

> mod.Dutch dichten to invent, compose, versify;

Cerberus

Ahhh.

Closer to German dichten.

tchrist

> . The mutual relations of the OE., OHG., and Norse words are not quite clear; but the difference of formation between OE. dihtan:-*dihtjan, and OHG. tihtôn v.:-*dihtôjan, indicates that they are independent adoptions of the Latin, although the change of d to t shows that the word is old in German. The Norse word must be of later adoption: if it were old, the expected form would be *détta.

Cerberus

4:26 AM

So from dico?

tchrist

OE. dihtan, ad. L. dictāre to dictate, compose in language, appoint, prescribe, order, in med.L. to write, compose a speech, letter, etc.:
see dictate v. Parallel forms are OHG. dihtôn, tihtôn, tictôn, thictôn to write, compose, MHG. tihten, dichten, to write, compose, invent, contrive, mod.G. dichten to compose verses or poetry, MLG. dichten to compose, institute, contrive, set (oneself), LG. dichten, digten to versify, invent, contrive, think out, MDutch dichten to compose (in writing), contrive, institute, prepare, mod.Dutch dichten to invent, compose, versify; also Icel. dikta to compos…

Cerberus

Ah yes.

tchrist

From dicto, then.

Cerberus

I always thought dichten was related to dico...but I never looked it up.

Same word.

So say < compose < outfit...

tchrist

dicere, dictare

Cerberus

4:27 AM

A convoluted etymology.

The supine stem + a usually creates frequentative or intensive verbs.

Or even just the supine stem, if you turn it into a verb again.

tchrist

Shiny:

Their lord was Duilin, swiftest of all men to run and leap and surest of archers at a mark. But they of the Heavenly Arch being a folk of uncounted wealth were arrayed in a glory of colours, and their arms were set with jewels that flamed in the light now over the sky.
Every shield of that battalion was of the blue of the heavens and its boss a jewel built of seven gems, rubies and amethysts and sapphires, emeralds, chrysoprase, topaz, and amber, but an opal of great size was set in their helms.

See why you need to read the archaic version?

Cerberus

Well...

tchrist

Do you know "rede"?

> Then spake Tuor and this was his rede, that a mighty sally be made forthwith, ere the light and heat grew too great in the plain; and many backed him, being but of different minds as to whether the sally should be made by the entire host with the maids and wives and children amidmost, or by diverse bands seeking out in many directions; and to this last Tuor leaned.

Cerberus

Sure.

That's basic Germanic.

tchrist

Few there are today who yet do, at least in English.

Cerberus

4:30 AM

Rede = speech in Dutch.

tchrist

Ah, good.

Cerberus

Reden = to speak in German.

The older the English, the closer it gets to Dutch and German.

The smaller the advantage of the native speaker of English compared to his Germanic cousins.

tchrist

Yes, usually.

Cerberus

The same applies to Latinate words and all (remote) cousins, obviously.

tchrist

But he doesn’t use those much.

He sometimes goes to OE and ON forms that you have to look to the North to find cognates of.

Cerberus

4:33 AM

Of course.

But modern kitchen utensils, birds, flowers, branded merchandise, abbreviated committees...those are by far the hardest.

tchrist

Birds and flowers?

Cerberus

Eh.

Actually, vulgar slang is also hard.

So yes.

tchrist

> But lo! Ecthelion, whose face was of the pallor of grey steel and whose shield-arm hung limp at his side, strode above him as he fell; and that Gnome drave at the demon, yet did not give him his death, getting rather a wound to his sword-arm that his weapon left his grasp.

"Drave".

Cerberus

If you were referring to birds and bees.

tchrist

I was not.

Cerberus

4:36 AM

Oh.

tchrist

You said birds and flowers were hard for you.

Cerberus

They are.

Unless they are easily recognised cognates.

tchrist

The English have their own names for things, oft differing from our own.

Cerberus

Drave = drove?

tchrist

Surely.

Cerberus

4:36 AM

We talked about the berries.

tchrist

You have different trees from us.

Not so much as in say, New Zealand, which is alien.

Cerberus

Those are absolutely impossible to remember, even though I read their names frequently: context helps absolutely zero.

tchrist

There are circumboreal flora common to us all.

Cerberus

I can look up whortleberry if I see it in a novel, but the next time I will still have no idea, because any berry would probably work in the story.

If the flora is alien, then we won't even have a word for it, so it is physically impossible to remember.

tchrist

I would have to look it up, too.

Cerberus

4:39 AM

Whortleberry?

tchrist

One of the things I dislike about Jackson’s films is that he (by sheer necessity) has the wrong forests.

Cerberus

Hmm.

tchrist

It is not a northern hardwood forest. And I miss that.

Cerberus

Is that the director of LotR?

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

4:40 AM

If only that were the least of our problems!

tchrist

He had no choice, of course, but I am sensitive to that sort of thing, so it robs me of the illusion.

True.

Cerberus

Saruman and Elrond disappointed me most, by their appearance.

And all sorts of details that I don't remember.

tchrist

Endeavor not to do so.

Cerberus

And a book is just so much richer, because it contains so much more information than a film can.

I need not endeavour.

For nature has gifted me with a weak memory.

tchrist

He first wrote the Fall of Gondolin so very long ago. The difference in the prose quality between the archaic version and the one you are now reading is great.

But only the archaic version is complete, alas.

Cerberus

4:42 AM

I read about the difference.

But quality?

tchrist

Well.

It has repetitious turns of phrase.

Sometimes.

Cerberus

Oh.

tchrist

You will see.

Cerberus

Well, that's Homer for you.

tchrist

Too many sentences that start out with Now or Then.

Cerberus

4:44 AM

Do you enjoy premodern English much?

By that I don't mean old-fashioned, but archaic.

tchrist

> Glory dwelt in that city of Gondolin of the Seven Names, and its ruin was the most dread of all the sacks of cities upon the face of Earth. Nor Bablon, nor Ninwi, nor the towers of Trui, nor all the many takings of Rum that is greatest among Men, saw such terror as fell that day upon Amon Gwareth in the kindred of the Gnomes; and this is esteemed the worst work that Melko has yet thought of in the world.

Cerberus

Older Dutch just sounds...silly, and older English sounds...Dutch.

tchrist

"Bablon"? Hm.

Cerberus

Bablon, really?

Nineve?

I don't know what Trui is...

tchrist

I don’t know.

Cerberus

4:46 AM

Tyre?

Rum must be Rome.

tchrist

Yes.

TROY!

Cerberus

Ah yes!

D'oh.

Not that Troy was particularly known for its towers, unless I forgot something...

But of course.

tchrist

No, but "towers" conjures up thoughts of distant greatness.

Cerberus

This mixing of worlds he never did later.

tchrist

Nearly.

Cerberus

4:48 AM

Yes, but some cities are known for their towers.

Like Babylon.

tchrist

> The Eldar they summoned to return into the West, and those that hearkened to the summons dwelt in the Isle of Eressëa; and there is in that land a haven that is named Avallónë, for it is of all cities the nearest to Valinor, and the tower of Avallónë is the first sight that the mariner beholds when at last he draws nigh to the Undying Lands over the leagues of the Sea.

> And even the name of that land perished, and Men spoke thereafter not of Elenna, nor of Andor the Gift that was taken away, nor of Númenórë on the confines of the world; but the exiles on the shores of the sea, if they turned towards the West in the desire of their hearts, spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë in the Eldarin tongue.

Avalon and Atlantis.

Cerberus

Of course Middle Earth is on earth, and we are the descendent of Tolkien's men, but no name, no direct link is ever mentioned.

tchrist

See above.

Cerberus

Oh, Atalantë.

Tsk.

tchrist

And Avalon.

Cerberus

4:51 AM