@Cerberus If you want to be inflammatory, then bring real facts. Don't expect me to get worked up over something that you've fantasized as reality.

If stats combined with in-depth knowledge of attitudes (as in interviews, talking to people, etc.) point in a certain direction, then doesn't it make sense to discuss the significant possibility of a connection?

@Cerberus You don't have that kind of evidence.

What kind of evidence?

I don't understand why you have such a big problem with this.

I'm not drawing definite conclusions and stating them as facts, as you know.

Just pointing out likelihoods.

Maybe so, but you're complaining about them as though they are facts.

Am I?

Which line sparked your ire?

So how would you rephrase those lines to make them acceptable to you?

I am surprised that this even surprises you.

I don't see the problem.

I wouldn't. I wouldn't make up reasons to be pissed off at Muslims.

Who says I am pissed off at Muslims?

And how am I making up reasons?

You have stats that indicate that a gay child would be thought of as a "problem" of some sort by Turks and Moroccans.

I really don't understand how this is not a reasonable hypothesis based on the stats alone, and even more so on in-depth information from people directly, why they believe what they believe.

You say it must be because Turks and Moroccans are Muslims.

Yes.

If you ask them, they will often literally confirm this.

You don't have in-depth anything @Cerb.

But I do.

Where? Show me.

When people explain their reasons...

Where?

Where have they explained their reasons?

To me in person, on websites, in television interviews, etc.

All of them?

Sure.

Show me the study then.

Many Muslims say, "it is wrong, because my religion forbids homosexuality".

"Many Muslims" is not a sufficient source.

I don't have a study on hand.

Then I don't want to hear your claims. They are baseless.

You have no facts to back you up.

What I mean is that, on the one hand, we have statistics, and on the other we have an idea of how the mechanism could work, the relation between Muslim culture and a dislike of homosexuality.

When you have that study, or preferable more than one, we can talk.

My friends made a documentary on Muslim gays.

In Iran, Morocco, many other countries.

Lots of interviews.

You know that Christians also don't like homosexuals, right?

They also interviewed lots of Imams.

@KitFox Yes.

But in my country, less so than Muslims, I'd say.

The problem is of course the correlation between Islam and socio-economic position.

Because the latter certainly plays a part.

Show me the studies and we'll talk.

Why can't you talk without studies?

I gave you these stats.

I have seen countless other surveys.

You gave me stats about countries, not about Islam and certainly not about socio-economic status.

@Cerberus So show me those.

I want to see them for myself.

They will be in Dutch, if I can find them.

What is your problem between assuming that mosts Turks and Moroccans call themselves Muslims?

This is completely undisputed here.

And will they tell me that more Muslims think that having a gay child is a "problem"?

It is possible.

Have you talked to many Muslims in Holland?

Have you read the results of many surveys, read a lot of texts written by and about them?

@Cerberus Because what you know is that Turks and Moroccans feel this is a problem. That most call themselves Muslim is not necessarily related.

Why not?

I truly do not understand this.

The large majority call themselves Muslims.

What about the ones who object and do not consider themselves Muslim?

What about them?

What if 100% of those non-Muslims think it's a problem?

And only 50% of Muslims think it is a problem?

Where's your huffiness then?

What if their objection has to do with the fear that a gay child won't produce heirs to the family estate, and has nothing to do with Islam?

What if the "problem" is that they won't be able to arrange a good marriage for a gay child?

@KitFox I find that extremely unlikely, based on common knowledge.

But you don't know.

That's the point.

@KitFox Well, I would say this amounts to a kind of intolerance. Of course you can pick a very strict definition of intolerance.

@KitFox I am 99.9 % certain.

> Marokkaanse moslims vormen sinds 2010 de grootste groep binnen de islamieten in Nederland, met zo'n 355.883 personen.

@Kit Glisten? Really? You changed glister to glisten, just like the original devils? How could you!

356k Moroccans are Muslims.

The balrogs will come now.

@tchrist What are you talking about?

> In Nederland wonen 355.883 Marokkanen (2011).

Hmm Wikipedia seems to be inaccurate.

> . . . when KitFox erroneously changed my glisters to glistens.

@Cerberus Um. In the Netherlands, there are 356K Moroccan Muslims. That doesn't say anything about Morocco or Turkey.

@tchrist I didn't. @Fumble!

@KitFox Yes, and I wasn't talking about those countries, obviously.

I changed "glisters" to "glitters" because of the headline in the link he provided. I've been over this already.

It is well known that Dutch Moroccans are (comparatively) poorer than those in Morocco, because only poor labourers emigrated.

OMG. My computer is having regasms.

Software updates simply should not suddenly pop up a bunch of console windows.

40 behind Arqade again.

Commute.

@KitFox > Nederland telt naar schatting 825 duizend moslims. Van de Turkse Nederlanders beschouwt 94 procent zichzelf als islamitisch. Onder Marokkanen is dit 97 procent

There you go, 94 % and 97 %.

See?

In the Netherlands.

This link (major Dutch newspaper, must have good sources) was purple, so I must have read this number recently. I am not making any of this up.

So still nothing about the countries that you had the stats about.

And I happen to know that the large majority are also Muslims in M and T.

So kind of pretty irrelevant.

@KitFox What?

I had no stats about other countries.

I never commented on other countries.

You said Turks and Moroccans. You didn't say Turkish and Moroccan Nederlanders.

But that was obvious from context.

Because the stats I quoted were only about Dutch M and T.

In any case, I believe you will see somewhat similar percentages in M and T.

Um. No. It wasn't obvious. You said "Of Turks and Moroccans..."

Fine.

In any case, people in M and T are also Muslims, the large majority.

A well-known fact.

By "be" I mean of course "consider themselves".

And it still doesn't matter unless you know why a gay child is considered a problem there.

And I do know this partly, I told you.

You think you know, but you don't.

But Muslims in cities like Istanbul and Izmir are probably more tolerant than Muslims here.

You can't know unless the study said.

They answered the bloody survey.

So what did they say was the "problem" with gay children?

I define being tolerant as saying "it is not a problem".

But that isn't what is at issue.

I didn't say they were being tolerant.

Of course you can define it differently.

I said you can't assume that their intolerance is because they are Muslim.

But this was the most obvious interpretation of what I said.

Assume?

Because you don't know if they are actually Muslim.

I think there is a connection, based on those stats and personal stories.

There may be, but you don't know that there is one.

About 95 % call themselves Muslim.

We never know anything for sure. There are degrees in probability.

But you don't know if their intolerance stems from that or something else.

Unless they said so.

I said "would", and I think that more than accurately represents the existing uncertainty.

I think Muslim women should own assault weapons.

@KitFox Many people have said so in samples.

I don't know if I can be more provocative than that.

The only thing you know from that study is that more Turks and Moroccans think that gay children are a "problem" than Antilleans and Surinamers do.

@Robusto Sure you can. You're not even trying.

Perhaps I can find a survey asking "is homosexuality acceptable to your religion?".

@MετάEd Busted. I'm lazy today, what can I say. The holidays.

@KitFox Yes, but I know so much more than this study.

How many Muslims do you know?

@Cerberus It would also have to say "is homosexuality acceptable to you?" and "do you think that having a gay child is a problem? if so, what kind of problem?"

@Cerberus About a dozen.

@KitFox The difference will be slight.

Make that two hundred.

@Cerberus Maybe. Maybe even probably. But until you collect the data, it is merely speculation.

Speculation seems a bit too weak.

A solid hypothesis, I'd call it.

Doesn't it make sense to you?

Which part?

Perhaps Muslims in America are much more accepting of homosexuality, it is a possibility.

OK, how about Swiss Muslim women should be conscripted into the military and forced to possess assault weapons in their homes?

@Robusto Sounds good to me.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Your fatal flaw is in thinking a trilogy is one story split into three parts. It is not. It is three separate stories. For example, the D’Artagnan Romances by Dumas are a trilogy comprising three separate tales: The Three Musketeers, Twenty Years After, and The Vicomte of Bragelonne: Ten Years Later. The latter was published in three separate volumes but was not somehow therefore itself a trilogy of its very own!. Do you see the difference now?

See? I'm trying now.

@KitFox That Muslims in the Netherlands are more likely to dislike homosexuality ceteris paribus?

And mandatory adoption for all pro-lifers.

@Cerberus That's the second time you've appended "whale parts" on your sentences today. I don't understand why you're doing that.

And the pro-lifers have to raise the child as a Democrat.

Of course ceteris paris is always the problem, but there our knowledge of personal motivations comes in.

@KitFox What?

ceteris paribus = whale parts, right?

All things being equal.

Sorry.

More likely than whom?

Than non-Muslims.

I don't know.

Well, I think it is very likely.

And I'm not really sure why you'd want to draw that distinction anyway.

the ceteris is never paribus, which is the problem

I'm not sure either.

Unless one wanted to justify one's dislike of Muslims.

@JSBձոգչ Yes. And that's where internal knowledge about motivations comes in. Statistics can only ever be part of an explanation.

@KitFox Who says I dislike Muslims? Take that back.

I do not dislike Muslims.

rolls eyes

Now that is offensive.

Better?

Still suggestive of offensiveness, but whatever.

Come on now. Seriously, why make a distinction?

That I disagree with what I think is the opinion of all except 200,000 Muslims in my country doesn't mean I "dislike Muslims". That is wicked.

Why not look at the facts as what they are? Dislike people who dislike gayness. Why do you need to put other labels on them?

What labels?

What are you talking about?

Am I gonna have to exterminate both of y'all?

(ELEVATE)

(PONTIFICATE)

@Cerberus "They think being gay is a problem. They must be Muslim."

What if I said gays are more intolerant of Muslims in my country than are straights?

@KitFox I don't even understand what you mean here.

Wait, I know how to be even more provocative: I think all Muslim women should be forced to become assault-rifle carrying Lesbians who foment unrest with Apple products. Yes! wins

@Cerberus That's what you did. "They think being gay is a problem. They are must think that because they are all Muslims."

I'm still kvelling over that one.

I am less sure about the gay thing btw, 50 % chance. Many gays dislike Muslims more because they are gay, but other gays are extra tolerant of Muslims because they are gay, I think, so it is hard to say.

@Robusto You would require Turks to become Greeks? Didn’t Xerxes try that once?

@MετάEd: See above.

Stop that.

@KitFox That is a simplification. I just said Muslims are more likely to be intolerant of gays.

the danger zones in america by disaster statistics

@tchrist Let the chips fall where they may.

@Cerberus Based on your own personal bias.

@JSBձոգչ Don't show that to @Mitch! It's like a red flag to a bull.

@JSBձոգչ This is nonsense. Why does Canada get a pass? We are not paranoid enough!

@KitFox What bias? Can you stop being so personal?

There is no hail in Canada.

You can't spell Canada without nada.

@Cerberus I'm saying you still haven't shown me evidence of that, except that "many people" say that and "I have friends" etc.

can't spell America without eric

@Cerberus dotes on anecdotes.

@KitFox Not having concrete evidence available in a chat session is not the same as blabbering nonsense.

@MattЭллен Can't spell England without gland.

lol

And I didn't even take up a definite position beyond "would be more likely".

So what is your problem?

Why don't you show me some stats that Muslims in the Netherlands are more tolerant of gays?

I'm not the one making the claim.

You are making a very strong counter-claim to my fairly mild claim about a likelihood.

I'm not making a counter-claim.

Not of any sort.

I think the survey I gave you is quite useful as evidence, and that most Moroccans and Turks here are Muslims is a well-known fact.

I would never discriminate against the other 200,000 based on their religion.

But it doesn't mean that they are less tolerant of homosexuals because they are Muslim.

You can never prove such things beyond doubt.

But it does make it seem likely.

Shopping can never be an interest, it is a marker for a total lack of interests, puke. (been xmas shopping)

Can that be written in a better/cleaner way?^^

@JohanLarsson Could, but I rather like the charm of that one.

Someone's just fucking with us now.

@JSBձոգչ What a horribly misleading map.

@KitFox I like it because it is true, conclusion after thinking about it for a couple of hours in shops now. I hate it because it is true.

@Robusto Do what the professionals do. Fuck back.

I want to point out that @Mahnax is creating sacrilege by putting a cupcake on Vincent Van Gogh's head. It looks like a turban, and that would make Van Gogh a Muslim ... which he was not!!!!

@KitFox You know what would help? If you could think of an alternative, possible explanation of this 75 %.

Oh FFS.

They are poor.

@Robusto that's dostoyevsky

Some other feature of Turkish and Moroccan cultures leading to such opinions?

I think

@MετάEd That is the world's oldest profession in a nutshell.

Poor people are well-known to be less tolerant of gays.

@MattЭллен Even worse! Someone give me an axe.

the one who wrote war and peace

@KitFox As I said, so are Surinamers and Antillians.

@Robusto That's the spirit.

That is exactly why I quoted these figures.

@MattЭллен Oh, you mean Leo Dostoevsky? Or was it Fyodor Tolstoi? I don't remember which.

@Cerberus They are not black. Poor, non-black people are well known to be less tolerant of gays.