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7:00 PM
cantones? que idioma es?
en ingles por favor
o "Cantonese"? un cognado?
 
@ZachHauk cantonese?
 
how do i make {} brackets in mathjax?
 
Okay, but how do they show this then: $(a_1a_2\cdots a_k)\cdot(a_{k+1}\cdots a_n)=a_1a_2\cdots a_n$. What is their induction hypothesis? Do they start with $n=2$? Or $n=3$? And do they use the definition for a product of $n$ elements? Because I don't see why they'd do that
\{ \} @Sirmimer
 
si, yo pense que
 
Thanks Vuklia
 
7:02 PM
@DHMO mi hermana puede hablar un poco de frances...
 
@ZachHauk bueno..
 
pero ella probablemente lo olvido...
 
@ZachHauk debo irme ahora
 
I'd say you can start at $n = 3$.
 
(tienes 16 mas anos que yo!)
 
7:03 PM
the $n = 2$ case is trivial anyway
 
@ZachHauk adios
 
@DHMOS adios
 
So: originally they say: define $a_1 a_2 \cdots a_n$ as $(((a_1 a_2) a_3 ) \cdots a_n)$
 
Hi again
 
Ahh, and then if you pick an $n$ for your induction hypothesis
you also have all $k< n$
 
7:05 PM
Then, they say: if you split $a_1a_2 \cdots a_n$ in two with parentheses
then it'll still match that thing
 
yes
 
As Ted said, it's mainly pedantic
 
Ah, so they're basically saying; adding brackets doesn't matter?
 
No need to spend too much time on this proof if you understand how to prove it
@Sha Yes
 
But if they started off with that (adding brackets doesn't matter)
then the first part isn't necessary anyways, is it?
 
7:07 PM
I am uncertain of what you call the definition below in English. Can someone confirm that the following definition is called "preimage of a set": $f^{-1}(H)=\{x ∈ X|f(x) ∈ H\} ⊆ H$
 
because the brackets don't matter..
oh wait
ok
They had to give meaning to a product with $n$ factors
yea ok i get it
 
@Sirmimer Yes, that is the preimage, but it is not contained in $H$ necessarily
 
Hi @Tobias
 
@Astyx Hi
 
Thanks for your help. I was stuck on this for an hour now
 
7:08 PM
@Tobi thx, I was 99,99% certain. I see the English definition (wiki) uses B instead of H
 
What do you mean by complete induction by the way ? @Sha
 
@Sirmimer Clearly it does not matter what you call the sets
 
I don't know, my book uses it, though I must say that it's in Dutch
 
And is your surname Sha or your name ?
 
name
Maybe they mean complete induction = strong induction?
so that it holds for all $k\leq n$
 
7:10 PM
@Tobi I know. I just could'nt find any wikipedia page on my own language, and so I couldn't "translate" via wikipedia. Wanted to be 100% certain.
 
Oh yeah, Wikipedia says it's the same as strong induction
 
This question is a good example of how annoying it is when an OP shifts the goalposts: math.stackexchange.com/q/2155070/137524
 
Hey @Steamy I was at office hours so I only just now saw this, but thanks for the recommendation
 
No problem :)
 
i'm back
and the PURPLE ARMY HAS GROWN
 
7:17 PM
As it turns out, if you mess around with truncation the right way you get the result that I was not figuring out right, and which was really getting under my skin
 
@Zach Semi isn't purple, he's red
 
i was talking about
ugh there was someone else who was purple and they left
 
You might want to turn Caps lock off :)
 
But yeah I guess part of my aggravation is that $\ell^p$ spaces are kind of annoying to deal with, too many epsilons and series flying around
 
I always forget the extent to which grading lab reports makes me anxious
Both at the obvious level of "am I giving them a fair grade"
 
7:20 PM
While with $L^p$ spaces it seems like you have all these overpowered theorems that just make life work, and then just say "So $\ell^p = L^p(\mathbb{N},\mu)$ where $\mu$ is the counting measure, therefore special case"
 
And at the level of "am I going to slog through all of these in time"
(If you think that would make me start working on them sooner, you are vastly underestimating my propensity for procrastination.)
(On the other hand, if you're here in the first place you're probably procrastinating too :P )
 
I still don't know how to prove it. We assume that for some $n>2$, it holds that for all $k\leq n$,
$$
a_1a_2\cdots a_n=(a_1\cdots a_{n-1})\cdot a_n.
$$
Now consider a second product $a_1\cdots a_{n+1}$. We want to show that
$
a_1\cdots a_{n+1}=(a_1\cdots a_n)\cdot a_{n+1}.
$
We can write $a_1\cdots a_{n+1}=a_1\cdots a_na_{n+1}$.
How can I argue that $a_1\cdots a_na_{n+1}=(a_1\cdots a_n)\cdot a_{n+1}$?
 
Isn't that by definition ?
 
No, because it only holds for $n$
and here we have $n+1$
right?
I mean, yes you're right
in the end
it is by definition true. but we defined it by complete induction
so I'm trying to figure out how to define it by induction basically
 
What do you mean by $a_1 \dots a_{n+1}$ then ?
 
7:30 PM
$a_1\cdots a_{n+1}=a_1\cdots a_na_{n+1}$ right?
 
Yup
 
It's not defined yet
we are about to define it, right
through induction
 
I don't get what you're trying to do then
 
I'm trying to define by induction what they're doing
they say:
 
You don't define things using induction. You use recursion
 
7:31 PM
Say, could someone help me figure out this sequence's pattern? It was a question on a thing I had, so I assume theres a pattern, but I couldn't figure it out
 
"then we define the product $a_1a_2\cdots a_n$ with complete induction to $n$ "
 
I was given:
3,8,23,60
And I'm supposed to find the next term, which is supposedly 203
 
@SimplyBeautifulArt Next term is $0$. So are the rest
 
But I don't know why
 
OEIS?
 
7:32 PM
@TobiasKildetoft well the problem was it was on an actual question I was supposed to solve
@Semiclassical Oh right, thanks man
 
well my syllabus says it's defined by induction :/ @TobiasKildetoft
 
@SimplyBeautifulArt It is not an actual problem in math though. It is a problem in mind reading
 
Yeah.
 
7:33 PM
@ShaVuklia Well, that is incorrect then (technically)
 
hi @Tobias
 
@TobiasKildetoft Well, I'm supposed to get to that number somehow
 
@ZachHauk Hi
 
oh wait
I get it now
they define it for every $n$, but also for every $k\leq n$
 
Well dang @SimplyBeautifulArt
 
7:34 PM
@SimplyBeautifulArt Right, by reading the mind of the person who gave you the sequence
 
so that you can do your nesting for any $n$
I think...
but that doesn't make sense, because then they should have written
 
-_-
@ShaVuklia How have you been?
 
for all $i\in\{1,\dots, n\}$
@SimplyBeautifulArt No idea :P I'm confused, tired, and happy. How about you?
 
@Semiclassical Sadly, the coaches didn't have an answer key that explained how 203 was reached. And noone has figured it out yet
 
@ShaVuklia The correct way to phrase this is that one defines the composition recursively using a specific bracketing and then proves using induction that this agrees with all other ways of putting brackets (by associativity)
 
7:36 PM
@ShaVuklia I suppose I'm doing well. A little dead, but I suppose that's normal
 
With composition you mean product?
@SimplyBeautifulArt I think too
 
@ShaVuklia yeah
 
I'm going to go with "dunno"
2
 
@TobiasKildetoft Would you happen to know where I could find this induction proof?
 
@Semiclassical As good as any other answer to that sort of question
 
7:38 PM
Without context, yeah
 
@ShaVuklia I think Hungerford has it in his algebra book
 
Because now I won't rest until I get it:P
right thanks
 
@ShaVuklia How do you people survive without sleep? I barely survive with sleep
 
Habit, for one
 
@SimplyBeautifulArt Uhhh... they don't. We're all pretending like we do :P We're all dying, literally and figuratively
 
7:40 PM
Habit, Coffee, Sugar
Also secretly being immortal lizard people, but shhhh
2
 
Eventually you do adapt to it. (Not that it's a good habit to have)
I'm stuck in a consistent 5-6 hour sleep cycle during the week
 
I do my best to get at least 7 hours during the week
Sleep is really important, for your physical and emotional health :P
 
The main constraint for me is that i usually have to be up by 6am in order to make my commute
 
Tbh, it's better be stuck in a consistent cycle of not enough sleep
than to be wildly inconsistent
 
Does anyone complain when someone uses series on a limits without LH question?
 
7:45 PM
You commute? @Semiclassical
 
Because it says that series is fruitful for these limits in the tag info
 
Because 6am really is early! I could get up at 08.15 and still be in time
 
With someone else, yes
 
>.>
Well, have a good day all
 
Bye !
 
7:46 PM
Bye @Simply
 
Main problem with lack of sleep is how tired I am by the end of the day
 
I tend to sleep too much these days
 
@SteamyRoot You referred to a book, and in the book they say that they define it inductively?
While you said it had to be done recursively?
 
Eh? I referred to a book?
 
oh wait, they also mention a recursion theorem
oh sorry
it must have been someone else
 
7:53 PM
@ShaVuklia That was me
 
yea sorry
 
Oh okay
 
My memory isn't failing me that badly then.
 
So... how would we define $a_1\cdots a_{n+1}$ here? Could someone just give me that crucial step?
 
7:54 PM
@Semi So you're abelian then
 
Zach was talking about mathcamp the other day, seems he's not alone. A qualifiying question was posted over there. I answered without knowing, got upvotes and today it is deleted until March 20. If some questions looks like contest, be aware...
 
@Sha $(a_1\dots a_n)a_{n+1}$
 
can anyone explain whats goin on in this picture?
 
@Astyx But how can we say that, when the number of elements in this product exceeds $n$?
 
@ShaVuklia That is the definition for any value of $n$
 
7:56 PM
What Tobias said
 
why are we defining it inductively then, when it already holds for all $n$ by our definition?
 
It doesn't
You define it by recursion
And you can prove it makes sense by induction
Suppose it makes sense for $n$. Then it makes sense for $n+1$
 
@Astyx or by appealing to the recursion theorem as it does in that picture
 
Thus it makes sense for any value
Not sure what the recursion theorem is
 
me neither
 
7:58 PM
@MATHASKER think it's p, s, q, r
 
@Astyx it is the theorem that says that if you define something recursively, then it makes sense in a unique way
 
Oh right
 
it is not too hard to prove, though it gets a little complicated
even though it is obviously true
 
and where do we use recursion?
 
You prove it by induction as I (carelessly) just did, right ?
 
7:59 PM
because.. we aren't creating new elements from the old ones
 
First two would be arc lengths on that (unit) circle, others would be x-components
 
@Astyx Right, though in fact you will end up needing induction twice as far as I recall
@ShaVuklia we use recursion because we define the $n$'th thing in terms of the $n-1$'th thing, rather than in terms of $n$ itself
 
It's not about creating new elemens, it's about giving a value to a product
 
Oh, and the value is defined in terms of values of the smaller products?
 
Yup
 
8:01 PM
ok, last time and then I give up;
 
Or rather in terms of the value of the product of an element and a smaller product
 
does it hold for all $n$ or for a some $n>2$?
 
@Semiclassical, yo
 
if the first is true, why use induction then
 
Both
 
8:01 PM
Yo
 
if the second is true, how to set up this proof
So basically it holds for all $n$ then
 
@ShaVuklia Does what hold?
 
For instance if you want to compute $\prod_{i=1}^{6}i$
 
that $a_1\cdots a_n=(a_1\cdots a_m)(a_{m+1}\cdots a_n)$
 
You multiply $\prod_{i=1}^5 i$ by $6$
 
8:02 PM
@Semiclassical ya I thought about the outside letters being the arc length but how would I find it without given the formula
 
And $\prod_{i=1}^5 i$ is $\prod_{i=1}^4 i\times 5$
 
I think that answer is in like the given choices but I don't know which one as Im confused
 
And $\prod_{i=1}^4 i$ is $\prod_{i=1}^3 i\times 4$
 
yea okay, but why do we need an induction argument, when we've already defined it for all $n$?
 
8:03 PM
And so on
 
@ShaVuklia try to first show it for $n=4$ to get an idea of how it works
@ShaVuklia because we did not define it to be the thing we want to show it equals
 
How can I compute this sum $\displaystyle \sum_{i=3}^{\infty} \dfrac{1}{((\sqrt[ ]{2}-1)\ (i-2)+1)^4}$
 
so my induction hypothesis is that it works for $n=3$?
 
We defined it to equal a specific bracketing, and we want to show it also equals all other bracketings
 
You have to infer a bit. For instance, they take cos of 0.8 and 2.9. So presumably these are radian measures.
 
8:04 PM
@ShaVuklia Technically, that is the base assumption of associativity, but yes
 
@Sha Where do they say they use induction ?
 
I know the sum converges and I have an upper bound.
 
@Astyx "we define inductively a meaningful product of..." (bottom of the first page)
OK, I'm gonna try out the $n=4$ case
 
@ShaVuklia Right what they call a meaningful product is what I have been calling a bracketing here
 
One thing that helps is that 2.9 rad is between pi/2 and pi so the corresponding point on unit circle would be in the 2nd quadrant
Whereas 0.8 rad is between 0 and pi/2 so would be in first quadrant.
 
8:07 PM
So we know that $a_1a_2a_3=(a_1a_2)a_3=a_1(a_2a_3)$. Now we want to give meaning to $a_1a_2a_3a_4$. Am I allowed to just split this? $a_1a_2a_3a_4=(a_1a_2a_3)a_4$?
 
Yes
 
Why?
it's not defined yet
 
That's how it's defined
In your book at least
 
From there it's pretty obvious how to match which of the arc lengths is which. Same with x-component
 
What axiom/definition allows this?
 
8:09 PM
If it's confusing, try converting from radian measure back to degree measure.
 
@Sha Your book just defined $a_1a_2a_3a_4$ to be $(a_1a_2a_3)a_4$
(because $a_1a_2a_3a_4$ made no sense before)
 
How did they define it?
because
if you're going to say that they defined it for all $n$... then why did they mention induction in the first place?!
that's like saying
 
Complete induction
 
we add +1 inductively to each element in $i\in\{1,\dots,n\}$
like, no, we aren't doing anything inductively here; we're just doing something for all the significant elements
well okay whatever:(
 
@ShaVuklia That is why I keep saying that the word induction is technically wrong there. It is recursion
 
8:11 PM
What Tobias said, again :p
 
so it's even wrong in the book you referred to?
 
induction is what you need to now prove that all other meaningful products of the four elements agree
I would claim so yes (though it might be common to use it like that)
 
why do I need induction, when it's already true for all $n$?
why should I prove something that is true by definition?
 
You define/construct recursively, you prove inductively
 
@ShaVuklia what is "it" now?
 
8:12 PM
When what is true for all $n$ ? @Sha
 
That $a_1\cdots a_n=(a_1\cdots a_m)\cdot (a_{m+1}\cdots a_n)$
 
@ShaVuklia since that is not how we defined, it, why would it be true?
 
then what did we define?
the $n=3$ case?
 
Often, though, you need to prove that said definition is actual sound i.e. a set is well-defined. So I can understand a certain sloppiness
 
@ShaVuklia No, we defined it for all $n$, but not to equal that thing you wrote
 
8:14 PM
You defined $x_1=a_1 \dots a_n$ and both $x_2=a_1 \dots a_m$ and $x_3 =a_{m+1} \dots a_n$
 
and what do you mean by "it"? @TobiasKildetoft
 
@ShaVuklia I do not mean anything by "it"
 
You now need to prove the equality $x_1 = x_2 x_3$
 
But what am I given?? What is the thing that is defined??
 
@ShaVuklia For $n=4$ the thing that is defined is $a_1a_2a_3a_4$ and it is define to be $(a_1a_2a_3)a_4$
you need to show it also equals $(a_1a_2)(a_3a_4)$
 
8:17 PM
You're using the screen shot as reference right? Not my question on the forum right?
 
You know that for any product of less than $n$ elements, you can parenthesis as you want. You need to prove it also works for $n$
 
@ShaVuklia Yes
 
But that's impossible, because as soon as I work with a product with $n$ factors, I'm stuck. It has no meaning
 
Yes it does
 
@ShaVuklia It has precisely the meaning it has been defined to have
 
8:19 PM
I am not given the instructions how to parenthesis with more than $n$ elements
 
Yes you have
It's (((12)3)4)5) and so on
 
So I'm considering the first $n-1$ factors as one element, and the last factor as an element?
 
And you need to rove it's equal to (((12)(34))5) for instance
 
But then I'm assuming that the first $n-1$ factor have meaning in a product with $n$ elements?
 
No
 
8:20 PM
@ZachHauk wtf with your glasses
 
they went down
so i look like a
well
you finish that
 
You're proving that for any bracketing, the product is equal to the bracketing defined in your book
 
that's not necessarily my issue
my issue is how the bracketing in my book is defined in the first place
but alright...
I'll just have to be strong and let go:/
 
Well product in itself takes only two elements and returns another
 
Librarian @ZachHauk
 
8:23 PM
@ShaVuklia If you are only concerned with the definition, what are you trying to prove? Definitions are not something to be proven
 
@skullpetrol oh pls
ill just go back to identicon if you guys want
/s
 
I just don't understand with what they mean by "we define inductively/recusively". I don't understand why they didn't just write the following:
For all $n$ it is true, that we can write the brackets as follows "..."
 
@ShaVuklia Because that would be a different thing
 
Oh, because that's a definition, $a_1 \dots a_n$ made no sense before they defined it
You can't rely on common sense
You have to give a meaning to it
 
Is a Möbius strip times $\Bbb R$ homeomorphic to a solid torus
 
8:25 PM
I was joking @ZachHauk :-)
 
Then show that the meaning you gave it satisfies properties you want it to satisfy
 
im kidding too
what do i do if im procrastinating
play more rhythm games?
 
@Sha Basically you're proving that you can do the bracketing however you like. The way proposed by your book is by induction. Define the product recursively with a certain bracketing, and prove by (strong) induction it's equal to any other bracketing of the same elements (in the same order).
 
@Akiva Are you asking?
 
@Astyx @TobiasKildetoft Ok.. maybe tomorrow I'll get it, when I look at it from a fresh point of view. Thanks a lot for you help - it's really appreciated
 
8:33 PM
Yeah. I think the answer is "no"; we end up with something nonorientable @MikeMiller
like a cylinder whose circular sides are identified the wrong way
 
Glad. Don't hesitate if you still have questions tomorrow
 
Thanks:)
 
(I mean the open Möbius strip, by the way)
 
No, they're not homeomorphic. You could look at the one-point compactifications if you like.
The fundamental groups of the one-point compactification a disagree.
 
Gotta go now, bye everyone !
 
8:39 PM
Bye @Astyx !
 
@Danu Spin structures are affine over real line bundles; if s otimes L = s', then the spin^c structures differ by L otimes C. This is clearly order 2 because L is.
Algebraically, tensoring with C is the bockstein homomorphism H^1(X;Z/2) -> H^2(X;Z) associated to the exact
sequence Z -> Z -> Z/2.
Call that beta. Its image is exactly the elements of order 2.
 
@TobiasKildetoft !!!!!!!
You there??
I got it!
 
@ShaVuklia great
 
I did ask someone else
a fellow student
I couldn't let go of it XDXD
because I know it's so stupid and trivial
I can finally breathe and relax again xD I almost started crying half an hour ago :P
And I have a huge grin on my face now, here in the library XD
sorry had to share my happiness ~ See ya tomorrow!
 
9:11 PM
If I multiply two factors, that are inverse to each other, then I will have the neutral element, correct?
 
Hi there !
 
hi
can someone help me to verify the axioms of an abelsh group here?
assosiative is clear
but neutral element?
it seems that 1 should be the neutral element
because (0,1) and (1,0) turn 0 again
but I have learned that two factors that are inverse to each other are multiplied the neutral element
if 1 and 0 are not inverse to each other - can it be that 1 is inverse to itself?
my solutions say that it is a ablesh group
 
@Semiclassical oh ok thanks but what do you mean by x component?
 
9:43 PM
In this context I really mean "horizontal distance to the vertical axis"
 
math.stackexchange.com/questions/4632/… Aryabhata here has an answer that I have interest in clarification: why does he say the "order matters," when as I understand it 2+3+4 = 3+4+2? I am working on similar problem and want to find the combinations of given X dice of K sides, which combinations total exactly to N, being an integer
IANAM-->i am not a mathematician, a simple programmer indeed I am
 
so were the cos(.8) and -cos(2.9) the arc lenght? @Semiclassical
 
Order matters because you can label your dice.
@MATHASKER no.
Draw right triangles on the unit circle with the horizontal segments as legs
 
so .8 is the R value, but wouldn't that be a bit higher than pi/6?
 
.8 radians is about 46 degrees
 
9:48 PM
 
So sure, it's more than pi/6 rad = 30 degrees
 
@Semiclassical if I have an array in ruby like [[1,1],[1,2]....[6,6]] given two 6sided die, and I want to find the unique totals that equal 7, I'm going to flatten the array and map the totals to a hash, in order to find the totals, while stripping the values and checking against N to put them directly into the solutions (output) array, at least, this is my guess on how to approach the problem.
I understand this is elementary combinatorics -- my mathematics background stops at the stepping stones to calculus
so I'm probably missing a key
 

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