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11:00 PM
Yup.
 
$ \int_1^2 \dfrac {e^x} {x^2 - 1} $ , the derivate of $ x^2 - 1 = \dfrac {2x} {(x^2 - 1)^2} $
 
if it was with brackets, I'm properly still in KP^1?
 
Yes, Semiclassic.
Whoa, @Maks. Slow down.
The derivative of $x^2-1$ is $2x$.
 
11:01 PM
The derivative of $\dfrac1{x^2-1}$ is $-\dfrac{2x}{(x^2-1)^2}$.
 
Think I have a mental picture of it @Ted, but I could be misled
 
$ \int_1^2 \dfrac {2x} {(x^2-1)^2} $ diverges, and is smaller than $ \int_1^2 \dfrac {e^x} {x^2 - 1} $ then, that one diverges too
 
Seems like nonsense to me, @Maks.
 
@Semiclassical sorry, $ \dfrac {1} {x^2 - 1} $
 
11:02 PM
Why is $\dfrac{e^x}{x^2-1} \ge \dfrac{2x}{(x^2-1)^2}$????
 
Does it look like the cubic but constrained to above/below the parabola $y=x^2$ in the $xy$-plane? @Ted
 
@Brody: It's surprisingly difficult to get graphics software to draw good pictures of global phenomena. Of course, there are some functions where it does just fine without effort.
Yeah, that's the right idea, @Brody, but there's some twisting going on at the origin. (This curve is in fact a prototype for what generic space curves look like very locally. You'll learn that in differential geometry.)
 
@TedShifrin Hmm, neat thought. Space curves as in curves in space?
 
Yuppers.
For that, if you're interested, you can see the end of section 1.2 of my diff geo notes.
A proof by counterexample is a DISproof, isn't it?
 
@TedShifrin He says that because $2x / (x^2 - 1)$ is the derivate of $ 1 / x^2 - 1 $ (doesnt make sense to me either )
 
11:08 PM
@TedShifrin i am really tired :P
 
Okay @Ted. I plan to finish first two chapters of Multi. within a week or two. Time's just a bit funny now with projects and final exams.
 
Oh, the article is about proof by contradiction.
@Maks: Up to a sign, that is correct. But so what?
 
@TedShifrin i meant disproof by counterexample.
 
No, @Null. That question is about proof by contradiction.
 
@TedShifrin Since $dim(C(\mathbb{K})) \geq 2$ so we have $c_1 \neq c_2 \in \mathbb{K}$ consider $x \mapsto c_1$ and $x \mapsto c_2$ then the parralleogram identity isn't satisfied.
 
11:09 PM
It's logically correct. However, I dislike proofs by unnecessary contradiction.
Karim: You still do not have a counterexample.
 
@TedShifrin that is fine, and i realized that. i meant disproof by counterexample
 
@TedShifrin $c_1^2 + c_2^2 \neq 2c_1^2 + 2c_2^2$
 
Ohhhh ... @Null. So if a statement is WRONG, all you have to do to prove it is to say, "Look here. Counterexample."
 
like: "all primes are devisible by 2" counterexample: 3
 
I think maybe the point is that, if $\int_1^2 \frac{e^x}{x^2-1}\,dx$ were finite, then we could integrate it by parts.
 
11:10 PM
Right @Null
Karim: I'm losing patience. You do not have the correct values of $\|f\pm g\|$ and this is something a beginning calculus student should get correct.
 
Can't I compare it to $ \int_1^2 \dfrac {1} {x^2 - 1} $ ?
 
and my question is: are disproofs by counterexample weaker than other disproofs?
 
I know that one diverges and is smaller than the e^x one
 
@Semiclassic: You cannot, because the function blows up at an endpoint. So IBP makes no sense.
 
Yeah.
 
11:11 PM
@Null: That's generally the only way to give a disproof.
 
Can you can show $\frac{e^x}{x^2-1}\geq \frac{1}{x^2-1}$ for all $x\in[1,2]$?
 
@TedShifrin Can I do that ted ?
@Semiclassical I can show it for all $ x \in (1,2] $
 
Sure, @Maks, and how are you going to do that other integral?
 
Yeah, that'd be fair.
 
Nah, you have it for $x=1$ too: $e>1$.
 
11:13 PM
Ya, you're right.
 
@Null Not in any way.
 
But yeah, you'd still have the 'so what' question to deal with
 
A funny thing to note though is that every proof is a disproof of its negation. :P
 
$ \int \dfrac {1} {x^2 - 1} $ is $ 1/2(ln(1-x) - log(x+1)) $
 
@Maks: Which is using that partial fractions thing I wrote down earlier!!
So we've gone full circle, as it were.
 
11:14 PM
ln(1-x) tends to $\infty$ when evaluated on 1
Oh.. right hahaha
 
mmh, i just think that a disproof which uses a counterexample, can be incomputable
 
sorry !!
 
LOL, no need to be sorry.
But if you're on a test, your teacher will want to see where that comes from. Unless you are allowed to use tables of integrals or computers ...
 
@Null I think the example I gave earlier is in the spirit of that. You give two objects and show that one of them is a counterexample, but you can't say which one of them is the counterexample..
 
like: "oh look here what i got in my hat, a counterexample"
 
11:15 PM
I think I'm going to get named the room meanie. I keep telling people "that makes no sense." I just need a meme that says it. Where is @Hippa when I need him?
 
What you want, it sounds iike, is a nonconstructive proof that some counterexample exists.
 
@TedShifrin Ted, remember when I asked you how to know to which number a series converges, and you told me there only was a formula for geometrical ones ?
Isn't there something like partial sums ?
 
Partial sums of a geometric series, sure.
Partial sums of a generic series, nope.
 
I didn't quite say that, @Maks. I know ways of doing other ones, but only special ones. And people smarter than I am at this stuff can do way more with all sorts of trickery.
 
@TedShifrin Use the "but why?" meme media.giphy.com/media/1M9fmo1WAFVK0/giphy.gif
 
11:17 PM
There are series you can figure out by recognizing that they're related to Taylor series. You can either plug in and evaluate or differentiate/integrate or do something tricky and then plug in.
That's not as mean as you dummy; that makes no sense! :D
 
@TedShifrin Do you have an example ??
 
The last line of that, anyhow
 
Sure, @Maks. What is $\sum\limits_{n=0}^\infty \dfrac1{n!}$?
 
Either that, or this old chestnut: youtube.com/watch?v=LQCU36pkH7c
 
@TedShifrin A series haha
Isnt it e ?
 
11:19 PM
LOL ... Sorry I got the room derailed.
Yes, good, @Maks.
 
@Maks Ryan Reynolds is more appropriate for when someone does something that, although potentially valid, seems pointless and/or unnecessarily complicated
 
But how did they discover that ?
 
What about $\sum\limits_{n=1}^\infty \dfrac{n}{2^n}$?
Taylor series, @Maks.
 
@TedShifrin I dont know that one
 
I'd be curious when $e=\sum_{n=0}^\infty \frac{1}{n!}$ became known historically
 
11:20 PM
So you just, calculate the taylor series ?
 
There's a book all about the history of $e$. It's pretty good. @Semiclassic
 
@Maks There's a clever way for that one.
 
I think Euler did it using $e=\lim(1+1/N)^N$
 
I can well imagine
 
but not very rigorously
 
11:20 PM
yes, there's a clever way, but the Taylor series technique is better to learn :P
Heya, DogAteMy.
 
well, the Taylor series is pretty clever as well :)
 
Shall I just forget about it ? @TedShifrin
 
Not sure what a non-clever approach would be.
 
What are you talking about, @Mahmoud? Your question from before? Yeah, don't worry about it now.
 
11:21 PM
Forget about what, Mahmoud? the $f(x)$ thing?
 
You got derailed haha
you were trying to explain ME how to get the series values
 
You forget it about, I'll ponder it :>
 
Semiclassic: Eli Maor: $e$: The story of a number ... DogAteMy, you might be interested, too.
 
Neat.
 
Like , I get a series, and I have to know to which number does it converge, what do I try first ?
 
11:22 PM
I don't remember it but I remember liking it
 
@TedShifrin What do you mean by $now$ ?
 
(the book)
 
The only thing I know is that I have to see if its a geometrical series
Lets suppose its not, what do I do then ??
 
If you're going to see such a thing, @Maks, it's going to be something you've seen in homework/class before.
 
But I've read the book
 
11:23 PM
I mean you can come back to it when you've learned more, @Mahmoud.
It's a good question.
Oh, DogAteMy. smacks self
 
@TedShifrin We saw geometrical and something about partial sums, which isnt really explained, they just gave us an example, but I cant figure out how does it work
 
What was the example?
 
@TedShifrin I have an overflowing bookshelf
 
You are a scholar, DogAteMy. I'm not surprised.
 
The kinds that you can sum explicitly are typically of the form $\sum_{n=0}^\infty p(n)x^n$ where $p(n)$ is some polynomial in $n$.
 
11:24 PM
DogAteMy: You might like this question that was raised earlier.
 
you also see a good number with $p(n)/n!$ instead.
(in the realm of combinatorics, the latter are 'ordinary' series whereas the latter are 'exponential' series.)
 
Suppose $\lim\limits_{n\to\infty}n\left(f(1/n)-f(0)\right) = 1$ and $f$ is continuous at $0$. Can you conclude that the right-hand derivative $f'_+(0)=1$?
 
@TedShifrin Where should I start ?
 
Mahmoud. I keep saying you (and others) should just slow down and learn gradually.
 
@TedShifrin No
 
11:26 PM
yo
 
Good boy, DogAteMy. Do you have a counterexample?
 
@Semiclassical $\sum p(n)x^n$ are the ones called exponential series?
 
I'm looking for it
 
$x\sin(1/x)$ scaled appropriately
 
no, $\sum p(n)x^n/n!$ @Brody
$\sum p(n) x^n$ is ordinary series. (ordinary generating functions, to be precise)
 
11:28 PM
OK, DogAteMy, that's a reasonable answer. Here's a question I stole from a French book and put in Spivak's latest editions. It's pretty cool.
 
@TedShifrin $x\cos(2\pi/x)$, actually
 
@Semiclassical Ohhh, okay thanks
 
would be the properly scaled version
 
 
That's just a geometric series with r=1/2 and a=1/2.
 
11:29 PM
@TedShifrin I have to use that for studying $f(x)=\frac{ax+b}{cx+d}$, but right now I feel like the determinant method works because Mathematicians said so.
 
Don't, Mahmoud
That it has that property is interesting but quite irrelevant to what you'd be doing.
 
Suppose $f$ is continuous near $0$ and let $a_n=f(1/n)$. Prove that (a) $\sum a_n$ converges $\implies f(0)=0$. (b) If $f'(0)$ exists and $\sum a_n$ converges, then $f'(0)=0$. (c) If $f''(0)$ exists and $f(0)=f'(0)=0$, then $\sum a_n$ converges. (d) Suppose $\sum a_n$ converges. Must $f'(0)$ exist? (e) Suppose $f(0)=f'(0)=0$; must $\sum a_n$ converge?$
 
 
Ah. That's less trivial, yes.
But that's one which telescopes the moment you write it in partial fractions.
 
@Maks: That's a common trick with telescoping. It's based on partial fractions yet again.
 
11:31 PM
@TedShifrin How do I use partial fractions to know to which number a series converges ??
 
For (a), it's 'cause the terms have to approach zero for it to converge
 
I just solve the series and look for some kind of pattern ??
 
@Semiclassical I think I we shouldn't be exposed to something in Math until we can rigorously prove and explain why it works and why is it defined the way it is.
 
It helps to have some familiarity with the kinds of series you'd see on a test.
 
@Mahmoud: I do not entirely agree with you.
Sometimes it's good to play with something and then truly understand it later.
 
11:32 PM
@Mahmoud I'm more Eulerian than that :)
 
Sure, DogAteMy. I promise it gets more interesting.
 
@TedShifrin I do that all the time
 
It's not all bad, @Maks.
 
@TedShifrin Probably a lot to ask from Math education nowadays.
 
If the derivative $f'(0)=:c\ne0$, then near $\infty$, $\sum_n a_n$ looks like $c$ times the harmonic series; I'll have to make that more rigorous
 
11:32 PM
Understanding comes from experience.
 
@Mahmoud peano in kindargarten lol
 
@Semiclassical Eulerian ? ...
 
@Mahmoud have to have some ideals.
 
@DHMO Hi.
 
nod, DogAteMy
 
11:33 PM
Leonard Euler, aka one of -the- most well-known mathematicians
 
To the first bit or to the "I have to make it more rigorous" bit
Or both @TedShifrin
 
Yes. :D
 
So all three then :P
 
he contributed to a -ton- of mathematics, and did so in an era where the standards of rigor were a lot different
 
LOL
 
11:34 PM
I know who is Euler .. @Semiclassical But what does he have to do with the subject ? :P
 
So there's a lot of stuff which he discovered but which had to wait a while to receive a rigorous treatment.
 
@DHMO start ZF in middle/junior-high
 
And I have yet to start it, @Brody.
 
Did you know that Euler once wrote $“\dfrac{p^0-1}0=\ln p”$?
And I love that
 
@Semiclassical Oh..
 
11:35 PM
I mean it like this: Just because you don't have a rigorous foundation for a subject doesn't mean you can't discover things about it."
 
Well, we know what he meant.
 
The foundations come later.
 
what is a subspace of $\mathbb{R}$, apart from $\{0\}$?
 
But Mathematics is different now, and definitions are rigorous and precise, why do we have to suffer like what Euler had to ?
 
$\Bbb R$, @Null.
 
11:36 PM
@Mahmoud Because what happens when we venture into new math that isn't rigorous yet
 
@TedShifrin and that's it or?
 
Yup.
 
Or, simpler answer, it's because it's easier to learn the intuition first. @Mahmoud
 
Plus, how you make a subject rigorous isn't the same as how you learn it
 
Sometimes intuition is proved wrong, but that's OK.
 
11:37 PM
I feel like one should be taught both, though I'm not sure which is best to learn first.
 
Otherwise we'd all love Bourbaki :)
 
@TedShifrin does the following then even make sense? Lines can in many ways be linked with vectorspaces. We analyse the line $G$ which is given by $y=1+\frac{x}{2}$.
a) State a subspace $U\subset \mathbb{R}^2$, such that $G$ is an element of $R^2/ U$.
 
back later
 
You have learned quotient vector spaces, @Null?
 
Back to Shifrin's question
 
11:38 PM
Wait .. So Mathematicians don't make the definitions rigorous and formal from the first time discovered ? Huh ?
 
@TedShifrin only with Z examples
 
Oh, this is in your algebra course, @Null?
 
@TedShifrin yep
 
OK, so you want cosets to be parallel lines. That's the hint. $G$ will be one of those.
What should the 0 coset be? That's the subspace.
 
@TedShifrin well $\{(a,0)|a\in\mathbb{R}\}$ is a subspace or?
 
11:39 PM
Yes, sure, that's a subspace of $\Bbb R^2$.
 
@TedShifrin $f'(0)=\lim(f(h)-f(0))/h=\lim f(h)/h$, which, if it exists, is $\lim f(1/n)n=\lim na_n$. If that's nonzero, we can bound $\sum a_n$ below by a multiple of the harmonic series, so it must be zero.
 
It is isomorphic to $\Bbb R$ (we've been through this before).
Oh, you're on the "making it more rigorous" part, DogAteMy?
 
What you wrote down there doesn't make sense, though.
Oh, you left out a lim.
 
Yeah, sorry, edited
 
11:41 PM
Basically, limit comparison test, yes.
 
Assume $n\to\infty$ and $h\to0$ always
 
I was objecting to setting a limit equal to something with no limit in it. :P
Limit comparison is one of my favoritest things in calculus.
 
@TedShifrin $\{a+\frac{ax}{2}|a\in\mathbb{R}\}$
 
@DHMO
 
No, @Null.
That's not a subspace of $\Bbb R^2$.
 
11:42 PM
So now $f''(0)=\lim n^2a_n$ by a similar argument and possibly an instance of L'Hôpital
 
Reread the hint I gave you, @Null.
I'm not happy with that, DogAteMy.
 
Am I off by a constant factor
I think I am
 
@TedShifrin one element of this set will certainly be a line through the origin with a slope of 1/2
 
There are far better things than L'Hôpital, too :P
Yes, @Null: That's the 0 coset.
So what subgroup — vector subspace — are you modding out by?
G'night @MikeM.
 
$\lim n^2a_n=\lim f(h)/h^2=^L\lim f'(h)/2h=\frac12f''(0)$?
 
11:45 PM
We do not know $f'(h)$ makes any sense, DogAteMy.
Oh, $f''(0)$ exists, so we do.
 
Wait… What?
 
@TedShifrin $\{a+G|a\in\mathbb{R}\}$ but i'm not sure about the notation
 
But I hate L'Hôpital unless it's imperative. Can you think of a conceptually better way?
No, @Null, that's not right. I'm asking you to read what you typed me and tell me what $U$ is.
 
That doesn't make sense. I'm sure we can have all derivatives at 0 and no derivatives anywhere else. Multiply any nowhere-continuous but bounded function by $e^{-x^2}$. @TedShifrin
 
You mean $e^{-1/x^2}$, of course.
 
11:47 PM
Yes.
Sorry.
 
But now you're saying silliness.
If $g$ is differentiable at $0$, then $g$ must be continuous at $0$, but defined in a neighborhood of $0$.
 
You called me out for writing $f'(h)$, and then un-called me out. But you were right in calling me out since I don't know it exists. $h\ne0$.
 
No, you were right. I just hate it.
So (once you figure out why) I'll accept that proof but tell you there's a nicer one :P
 
Wouldn't my counterexample show that I was wrong writing $f'(h)$? Sure, it's continuous at $0$, but not at $h$ necessarily
 
But it has to be defined, not continuous.
We're up a derivative level in this problem, of course.
 
11:50 PM
$f'$ isn't defined because $f$ isn't continuous
 
Huh? When we say $f''(0)$ exists, then by the limit definition of $f''$, $f'(h)$ must be defined for $|h|$ small.
 
…oh. Oh, crap, that's right
 
@TedShifrin $b+\frac{x}{2}$ is parallel to G
 
What value of $b$ gives you a subspace, @Null?
Still, DogAteMy, there's an important principle here that there are much more powerful things than L'Hôpital. But I'll let it slide for the moment.
 
@TedShifrin i think my problem is really that I'm not into subspaces. For me all parallel lines are a subspace, maybe there's the misconception?
 
11:54 PM
No, @Null. It's analogous to modding out $\Bbb Z$ by $3\Bbb Z$. Then the cosets are $3\Bbb Z$, $3\Bbb Z + 1$, $3\Bbb Z + 2$. "Parallel sets" of integers.
 
In any case, $\lim n^2a_n$ exists, so eventually it can be bounded above by a multiple of the Basel series.
 
@TedShifrin 0 gives me a subspace
(0+x/2)
 
(d) is clearly no, again an $x\sin(1/x)$ sort of deal
 
Right, DogAteMy ... that's why I thought of this problem when you were so quick.
But what is the series, DogAteMy? I don't think it's quite that fast.
 
What? Basel is the $\sum1/n^2=\pi^2/6$ series
 
11:58 PM
I'm talking about (d).
I'm trying to keep up with you :D
 
You can make $a_n$ all zero.
 
Right @Null. So are we done?
 
@TedShifrin ah well, a subspace has to have (0,0) as an element. so 0+x/2 is the only subspace
 
Oh, OK, DogAteMy.
 
$x\sin(2\pi/x)$ works (sine instead of cosine this time).
 

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