Root Access

7:00 PM

the F2P experience is better than in some implementations I've seen -- extremely stubborn players HAVE experienced the entire quest line and never sunk a dime into the game

they let you play it to the completion of the game but most people will cave when they realize the benefits of subscribing

except for kids with no credit card or debit card info and parents won't give it to them :P

Daniel Beck

Any artificial hurdles for story content? Like "buy now so you don't need to grind all the things"?

Mokubai

not a helpful list, no clue what they mean and no immediate indication: swtor.com/free/features

Daniel Beck

There's mouseover text.

allquixotic

@DanielBeck well, not really, but subscribers get "Rest XP", which means, whenever you're in a Rest Zone, you accrue a small trickle of experience that doubles the XP you gain when you kill enemies, so if you spend a day or three logged out, you can gain a level or three when you login at double the rate

some players try to rush through the main class quests without doing any of the side quests and become so underleveled / under-geared that they can't beat any of their solo quests without a group because they're too weak. you're more likely to hit this situation as F2P than as a subscriber due to Rest XP

but there are more than enough side quests even for F2P to keep you at least the correct level and with good enough gear

Daniel Beck

@allquixotic Just like WoW. Which originally was the normal XP rate, and the now "normal" rate being punishment for playing too long. So if you don't pay, you're constantly being punished.

allquixotic

7:06 PM

TOR doesn't punish you that way -- you can become "right-leveled" or even over-leveled (which is good in terms of difficulty of completing quests) by repeatedly grouping with people and doing certain repeatable quests until you're leveled up

most of the XP comes from quest completion rewards, so all you have to do is run through heroic quests with groups over and over until you are a level or three above the quest level, and you should have enough resists, HP, etc. to just power through the enemies

as a subscriber I'm about 7 levels higher than the quest levels I get on the current storyline, because I do a lot of PvP for the XP (the number of times you can PvP per week is limited as F2P), and because of Rest XP

so I can pretty much sleep through my solo class quests

still need to group up for the heroics though; they pretty much require a party of four "no matter what" (unless you're some 20 levels higher)

Mokubai

How's the group questing? or is the group thing mainly PvP orientated?

allquixotic

oops

44 mins ago, by allquixotic

Here's a *tentative* shopping list:
[Foxconn SFF R20-A1 Barebones inc. chassis, AMD E-350 and motherboard $149.99](http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856119058)
[Kingston HyperX 8GB DDR3-1600 $48.99](http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820104173)
[ASUS 24X DVD Burner $19.99](http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827135204)
[Samsung Spinpoint 5400rpm 1TB SATA3Gb/s HDD $69.99](http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152379)

@BGM ^^

@Mokubai there's both PvP and PvE grouping. the PvE group questing is fun. also very story-driven. they have social cutscenes where each person in the group rolls a dice for who gets to answer the dialogs

BGM

@allquixotic - Hi - just found that post in the list. Thanks.

allquixotic

highest diceroll gets to answer to the NPC the way they choose

Mokubai

Oh that sounds like it could get hilarious if done right

BGM

7:11 PM

What's an NPC? Is that me?

allquixotic

@BGM sorry @BGM talking to @Mokubai about gaming

Daniel Beck

@BGM non player character in a game

allquixotic

we have two threads going on at once

typical when this room gets busy

BGM

Oh, sorry. I should have known that - I was a gamer a long time ago - Dungeon Master, in fact.

But I was in computer mode...

allquixotic

anyway, I think those four purchases would give you a complete working system with ethernet, DVD reading/writing, and a fully functional base system on which to install Windows 7 and do video conferencing with Skype

I didn't include a monitor since you said you're using the projector, and if you need a keyboard and mouse, that's extra

but the budget for the core system is way under your $450 limit

BGM

7:13 PM

Thanks, I'll look at those.

Mokubai

Likewise I will look into SW:TOR at some point :)

They have Euro servers right?

allquixotic

@Mokubai they do have Euro servers, but I wouldn't complain at all if you joined The Ebon Hawk (my server, located in the US) and check out whether the ping is acceptable for you

if you specifically went to the Empire faction on Ebon Hawk, I'd totally bring you into my guild, \o/

(can you tell i'm pitching you here)

Mokubai

Hehe :)

Would have to be the Empire, not going with the whiney republic....

allquixotic

it's east coast US, so you only have to hop the transcontinental cables, and then you're practically there

Mokubai

We shall see :)

allquixotic

7:18 PM

leave me an @ if you pick it up ;p interested in hearing what you think

Mokubai

Will do, as I say it's kinda dependant on mates tho

allquixotic

full disclosure: I do not work for Bioware or LucasArts ;P

they probably wish I would if I'm getting people to play their game / subscribe, though

BGM

@allquixotic Thanks for your help. I think I might like more than 8gb of RAM - that box won't take any more. But I've got a basis to go on, so I won't waste your time.

But if I've any questions, I might ask.

Mokubai

Boop

BGM

Yes, I've mostly Dells in our office here, but I need a small box.

Mokubai

7:22 PM

@BGM 8GB or more is nice, but if you're not doing heavy development you'll probably never notice it. I had 6GB and just went to 12, and there was no real difference in performance except what was in my head

12 just "feels" nicer but there's no way I can actually tell any difference at all

Anyway, feels like there's a dragon out there that needs to take an arrow to the knee...

allquixotic

I have 32GB -- I notice faster performance when I really load down the system with virtualization, a game or two (sometimes I play two at once), dozens of browser tabs, etc. -- but if it's literally just Skype, three or four Word docs, a couple pictures, browser tabs... that stuff doesn't take up enough RAM to really be a problem for 8GB

BGM

What about in 3 years? This box ain't likely to be replaced before then.

@allquixotic 32gb? Wow! I thought I was powerful with 16 on my desktop (I have it to run VMs).

allquixotic

in 3 years, at work, I'll probably get upgraded to a box with 8GB... right now I'm stuck on 4...

Mokubai

I had 6GB for about 2-3 years with no problems, wiping Windows gave me a bigger performance boost

allquixotic

so if you have 8 already you're ahead of the curve

and I have to run really memory-intensive programs for my day job

at this juncture I'd say 4GB is on the slim side, 8GB is just right for most tasks not involving gaming or virtualization, 16GB is just right for gaming or light virtualization, and over 16GB is mainly just for heavy virtualization or programming (multiple VMs, IDEs, or running a full fat Linux desktop on top of Windows, etc.)

it'll probably remain this way for around 5 years

BGM

7:26 PM

And you don't see any problem with a AMD E-350 APU (1.6GHz, Dual-Core)? That's kind of slow for a CPU, no?

allquixotic

@BGM again, it depends on your use case and your budget... your use case that you stated was very modest, and your budget even more modest

give me a $750 budget to work with and I'll give you something beefier

BGM

Hmmm.. Gotcha there.

allquixotic

it's hard to go much higher and stay within $450

BGM

I think I'd like to see what I can do for the minimum 2.7ghz. What if I went $550? Could I still stay in a small box?

allquixotic

as it stands the total is something like $288, so if you're talking higher grade components, you might have to give up the Mini-ITX form factor, or if not, be prepared to pay a premium for a tiny mobo that can still do 16GB

@BGM good question -- staying on Mini ITX means greater expense, because miniaturization means you pay more for the same components as a larger form factor

you would think that bigger would be more expensive, but you force manufacturers into tight ASIC design specifications (density) at Mini ITX form factor, so price goes up and performance per dollar goes down

that's why laptops costing $3000 are providing specs equivalent to a $1000 full ATX desktop

Mokubai

7:29 PM

Most games are not 64-bit capable so I would argue that 8GB is likely to be plenty for gaming for a good while yet. Though that could change quite suddenly I admit

allquixotic

Mini ITX also tends to run at much lower wattage so you can have a smaller PSU

PSU size and cost and chassis cost increases quite a lot once you start pumping more juice into bigger CPUs and/or GPUs

that Foxconn box I showed you is $169.99 for a CPU, chassis, and PSU

I paid more than twice that for my CPU alone

I paid more than 1.5 times that for my chassis alone

if you give me a budget I'll do you another system but that's about all I can do at <$450

also, don't pay any attention to "GHz"

GHz means as little for CPUs as horsepower for cars -- are you going to complain while driving down the road to work because your car doesn't have enough horsepower? chances are, no, unless you're towing a trailer

BGM

Ha! Father Superior opened my budget. (I am a Catholic Religious Brother) - he says make sure it does the job, and he'd rather pay extra for it to work well. We often have 10 or 12 priest visiting here at a time.

allquixotic

the CPU equivalent to towing a trailer is basically virtualization, 3d gaming, or scientific applications

you didn't cite any of those use-cases

BGM

So, I'd rather do what works well, maybe stay under $800?

allquixotic

your use case sounds like a very single-driver commuter car thing

but if you're going to upsell....

oh yes, I can do much better with $800 =D

let me go hunting

BGM

7:35 PM

Thank you very much!

I am hunting too, but I have to guess alot.

The keys here are the small size of the box and the video capabilities.

Now, I've always thought the the GHz referred to the speed of the computer - it's ability to think quickly.

And, no, this box won't be doing gaming, virtualization or scientific uses.

allquixotic

Chassis/PSU - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856101124
CPU - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116774
RAM - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231568
HDD - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152379
DVD - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827135204

total is $522.95; you probably have enough room to even throw a GPU in there if you're shaky on the Intel HD4000 on-chip

16 gigs of RAM, mid-grade Core i5 quad core CPU with excellent performance (it'll trounce that E-350), same DVD and HDD as before

BGM

I was actually already looking at newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856101117

@allquixotic How can one tell what parts will work with what chassis or motherboard?

allquixotic

@BGM in general, or for a specific part?

for CPU you have to make sure the socket type is the same as the mobo, other than that it should generally work (99% of the time with few exceptions) if the socket is physically and electrically compatible with the CPU

for RAM you have to have the same revision of the DDR spec -- so no DDR2 in a DDR3 system or vice versa, and probably best to make sure the clock rate of the RAM is no higher than the max the mobo supports and no lower than the min the mobo supports

BGM

What I mean is, if I want to shop for parts to use together like you are doing (rather than buying a "kit" where someone else has done it for me), how do I know such and such motherboard will fit in such and such case? Or, what processor will fit into what motherboard?

allquixotic

for HDD it's pretty much assumed that it'll work because they really only come in two sizes: laptop-sized 2.5" or desktop 3.5", and even the Mini ITX cases like these support desktop 3.5" SATA (don't look at IDE; obsolete)

for DVD it's pretty much one size fits all unless you look at slim drives, but generally even Mini ITX cases support one 5.25" bay for the DVD drive

BGM

7:48 PM

I've seen processors that lock down to 'mobo's in different ways, and I've seen them even with different pin configuration. It seems like one has a lot of painful research to do to match them up.

I didn't know that about just two sizes for the DVD drives.

allquixotic

@BGM it varies by vendor, but you basically have to pair up the chipset generation with the CPU generation and make sure they're compatible

and matching up the mobo with the chassis can be the most confusing part, so for that, I just go for a barebones case that provides a matching chassis + mobo + PSU, or else you have to look at specific specifications like form factor (ATX, ITX, etc)

for GPUs it gets really really complicated

GPUs have the following compatibility issues: current draw on the 12V rail has to be less than or equal to the max current output of the PSU on that rail; some tiny cases can only support single-slot GPUs (I think such as that Shuttle case) while many are dual-slot; and you have to have the right number and combination of PCIE connectors

BGM

For GPU, I've found that customer tech support doesn't even know...

allquixotic

also a GPU designed for PCI-E 3.0 will work suboptimally in a PCIE 2.0 mobo, and it gets worse the further down the chain it degrades (though it is supposed to be backwards compatible)

BGM

Okay, so I like the box - but it lacks an HDMI port, from what I see. I can chip that, no?

allquixotic

the GPUs I'm looking at all have mini-HDMI which will come out the back of the PCIe header

you need a simple, inexpensive, passive adapter for mini-HDMI to full HDMI

BGM

7:53 PM

The HDMI is for connecting to the projector, which will also serve as the monitor.

allquixotic

right I know

I found you a great GPU but it requires a bigger PSU than that Shuttle case... it wants a 400 watt PSU... you might be able to get that Shuttle case and that mobo separately and install them with a custom PSU

newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202002

that's a single slot low profile GPU with a mini-HDMI port for your projector, so it'll be a perfect fit and should really "future-proof" the system

it's a current-generation part too

Tom Wijsman

If you want to see what for a mess I made with my Skype accounts, search for my name or for tomwij on Skype. :D

I managed to get my own account back... using Facebook. >_<

So, now I need to ask Skype to merge the tomwij and live:tomwij ones and remove all the live:tomwij_* ones.

BGM

@allquixotic For the box, what do you think about newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856101117 - it has an HDMI on it already.

Tom Wijsman

I tried to get a specific number there, as I didn't want live:tomwij_1 since I lost live:tomwij.

allquixotic

@BGM sure, but if you're concerned about GPU performance, going with the on-chip graphics on the Intel CPU isn't really going to cut it... I mean, it will, technically, but you've got budget, so why not spend it? :P

Tom Wijsman

7:58 PM

So well, I hold 15 Skype accounts for the moment.

BGM

@allquixotic - I didn't realize it was a step down, actually.

allquixotic

@BGM all the benchmarks I've seen show the Intel Ivy Bridge generation processors obliterating AMD on CPU performance, but falling short on GPU performance

so if you go with an Ivy Bridge (Intel) CPU you're probably best going with a small discrete GPU

BGM

Okay, I get you. Wow, you sure know your hardware. That's why I'm talking to you!

I wish I could give you points or something for your help.

@allquixotic So, that Shuttle case only has 250 watts for power, which isn

't much, so I need something more to run a graphics card, I think.

Also, on the graphics card, I'm not sure I like the mini-HDMI - that means that my non-techy users have to deal with an adapter.

allquixotic

@BGM that's what I was saying -- that HD7750 card I showed you earlier requires a 400W power supply

@BGM if your users need to be plugging in the adapter, there's a problem -- you can just buy the little converter from mini-HDMI to HDMI and stick it on the card and people will never notice

@BGM someone gave me like $95 one time for helping them spec out a system - I was stunned :P but I've helped a buncha people here with their stuff, even other techies, so I'm used to it... ;p

you won't really find a GPU with a full size HDMI native port because of space constraints on the board

moreso with single slot cards and ITX mobos

BGM

Okay, I understand that about the limited space.

allquixotic

8:11 PM

also @BGM, I specced out how much it would cost to have Shuttle build you a system with specs like the ones we are looking at, and they want about $1250 for the same hardware (or slightly worse) LOL

you really save tons by building it yourself

BGM

I do appreciate your time. I'll remember you in my Rosary at least.

So, I would use the Shuttle box we picked out with the Sapphire graphics card, and use an HDMI adapter. Wouldn't it be better to put a larger power supply there?

allquixotic

@BGM yes, definitely

if you can find that shuttle chassis without the PSU that it ships with, or are willing to buy a PSU that you're basically going to throw away and upgrade it immediately

I looked around a bit, but I couldn't find that Shuttle chassis without the motherboard and PSU in it... so you'd have to buy the chassis+mobo+PSU, then another PSU on top of that

BGM

Ah... I see.

I don't mind that. The chassis is only $200, anyway.

allquixotic

this should work: newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817338081

it's $73.99, which is actually cheap for a decent PSU... the thing that impresses me about this PSU is its energy density (400W is a lot for that small package)

BGM

In order to know if a PSU will fit, do you go by dimensions?

There's more to it than that, no?

allquixotic

8:17 PM

no -- chassis/motherboard form factor

BGM

Isn't there something about what the mbo will accept?

allquixotic

the motherboard, chassis and PSU have to be paired up by form factor spec

that's why I keep saying "Mini-ITX"

BGM

Ah, okay, I'm getting some learnin'.

allquixotic

Mini-ITX

Mini-ITX is a 17×17 cm (or 6.7×6.7 inches) low-power motherboard form factor developed by VIA Technologies in 2001. They are commonly used in small form factor (SFF) computer systems. Mini-ITX boards can often be passively cooled due to their low power consumption architecture, which makes them useful for home theater PC systems, where fan noise can detract from the cinema experience. The four mounting holes in a Mini-ITX board line up with four of the holes in ATX-specification motherboards, and the locations of the backplate and expansion slot are the same (though one of the ho...

BGM

Looks perfect. I like learnin' too.

It makes me less stupid the next time.

allquixotic

8:20 PM

whoa... that REALLY surprises me O___O

the Radeon HD7750 I linked above (way above) does not require any external power; it runs entirely on the power supplied by the PCI-E slot

BGM

Which means... that the power needs to come from the primary PSU....

allquixotic

well the power is coming from the PSU regardless

it's just that, for big and juicy GPUs, the power supply has additional cables that have to plug into the side of the card to provide additional power

BGM

Doh!

allquixotic

they do it that way because the PCI-express slot isn't specified to provide more than a certain amount of energy

so the very large cards that want to exceed the power specifications of the slot need those external plugs

BGM

Okay. I'm getting less stupid by the minute...

allquixotic

8:23 PM

I was just surprised that they cut down southern islands enough to get you that GPU on the slot power alone

I haven't actually specced out a system this physically small before so I'm learning too

BGM

As you can see, I don't get out much.

allquixotic

yeah man... all my research points to this being a winner system, it'll be within your budget too

BGM

Another question - I don't know anything about blu-rays except that they are supposed to be a higher-quality video. Do blu-ray players play regular DVD's as well as blu-ray disks?

allquixotic

44 mins ago, by allquixotic

Chassis/PSU - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856101124
CPU - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116774
RAM - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231568
HDD - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152379
DVD - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827135204

plus upgrade PSU - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817338081
GPU - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202002

@BGM modern blu-ray players/burners can play and burn all older optical media, including DVD and CD

by "modern" I mean one manufactured approx. since 2010 -- very early, first-gen blu-ray players could only do blu-ray

blu-ray is still a bit pricier than DVD, but only a bit -- I saw a blu-ray player on Newegg for about $50. My jaw dropped. I saw them for $2000 just a few blinks of an eye ago (2009 or so) ;)

BGM

@allquixotic - The intel core i3(newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116774) - the Shuttle box already has a CPU in it doesn't it?

allquixotic

8:27 PM

@BGM nope, look at the tech specs, it provides a mobo and PSU only

the product description for the shuttle chassis tells you what CPUs are supported

it doesn't actually provide a CPU in the box, or it'd be nearly $400, and they don't want to hit price-sensitive customers like yourself with a $400 sticker shock :P

it's more digestible for you to buy the individual components which look cheap... but the price comes out the same when you add them together

BGM

Oh - that says, "CPU Supported" ... oh, you are telling me that just now...

allquixotic

you also get flexibility rather than being forced into a specific CPU model

I prefer it, honestly

BGM

Yes, me too.

allquixotic

hmm... I hope they ship the mobo to you with an updated BIOS

BGM

I want to trade the DVD drive for a blue-ray drive.

allquixotic

8:30 PM

my research suggests that if you want to socket an Ivy Bridge CPU into an H61 chipset, you need to update to the latest BIOS, otherwise the CPU won't be supported

if they ship it to you with a recent BIOS, you won't have to care

BGM

What's this stupid paper-clip thing that just appeared?

allquixotic

but if it's the original BIOS that the board originally came out with, it could not work

@BGM that's called an easter egg

26

Q: What Easter Eggs do the chat sites have?

According to balpha, the SE chat sites may have individual Easter eggs, depending on the site. If you find them, please post. Edit: Because it's so easy to make this stuff up, a screenshot as proof would be nice. (Although Photoshop ain't that hard either...)

you matched the easter egg regular expression

/(?:^|[.!?:]\s+)(?:(?:how\s+(?:can|do)\s+i)\s+([^?!.:]+)\?|(?:i(?:\s+want|(?:\s‌‌+am|'m)\s+(?:wanting|trying)|'d\s+like|\s+would\s+like)\s+to\s+([^?!.:]+)(?:$|\‌.|‌!)))/i

if you can't read regex, I forgive you -- they're 'write-only', anyway -- but basically you said "I want to blah blah blah blah.

BGM

I clicked "No thanks" it reminded me Office's little characters that I laboured to eradicate.

allquixotic

@BGM That's the point -- it's supposed to resemble MS Office's "Clippy" facepalm

r.tanner.f

@BGM That's the joke =D Isn't it great?

BGM

8:32 PM

Ha ha!

r.tanner.f

Pretty sure all of us here have screenshots saved of epic Clippy moments

allquixotic

@r.tanner.f yep

BGM

Sorry, missed the screenshot.

allquixotic

there's my favorite

BGM

Wow

Mine was a one-liner.

r.tanner.f

8:34 PM

I had a good one about "It looks like you're trying to move everything to Gmail so you can be rid of that evil thing. Would you like help?" referring to Lotus Notes

I think I erased it though... can't find it.

BGM

Okay, back to BIOS - if it doesn't ship with the updated BIOS (I NEVER would have thought about that), can't I just update it online?

allquixotic

@r.tanner.f mine is a shameless copy-pasta of the epic HTML regex thread on SO

@BGM sure, but, chicken and the egg -- how are you going to update a BIOS with a CPU that won't boot? XD

BGM

What do I do?

r.tanner.f

BGM

Did you click "yes Please?"

allquixotic

8:35 PM

you could just use a sandy bridge CPU to be safe -- and cheaper -- oooooorrrrr you could write an email to them and ask if they ship an updated bios

BGM

What would you do?

allquixotic

global.shuttle.com/news/productsFaqDetail?faqId=2090

well... here's what I would do

BGM

Okay, I'm filling out the form...

allquixotic

wait wait wait

I have a solution and I think it might even eliminate the need for that other PSU

BGM

Great, I hate forms.

allquixotic

8:42 PM

yep -- no need to buy the custom PSU anymore

newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856101129

you're up to $812.94 if you buy that Z77-based case instead of the H61-based case and also subtract out the upgrade PSU

and that's counting a $49.99 Blu Ray drive: newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136252

so, link spam again:
Chassis+PSU+Mobo: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856101129 $349.99
CPU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116774 $144.99
RAM: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231568 $87.99
HDD: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152379 $69.99
BluRay/DVD: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136252 $49.99
GPU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202002 $109.99

BGM

That new chassis has a regular HDMI port, too.

allquixotic

remember, if you're using a discrete CPU, it doesn't matter what the chassis has

if you plug something into the motherboard's builtin HDMI port, it will be rendering the graphics on the processor's HD4000 graphics, which is significantly less powerful than your Radeon HD7750 GPU

if you are too tempted to plug into the motherboard, tape over the socket, or... don't buy the GPU and save $109.99

BGM

Thanks for that. It makes sense. I might just use the tape.

allquixotic

again my "professional opinion" is that you won't need the GPU for your use cases to begin with, but to account for potential future use cases 5 years down the road, I'd keep the GPU if you can afford it

it may also give you slightly better browser rendering performance, since most modern web browsers make HEAVY use of your GPU

I feel bad though, I went $12.94 over your budget :(

r.tanner.f

haha

BGM

8:49 PM

Let me see what Father Superior thinks about that...

allquixotic

drop the BluRay down to a DVD and you're a few bucks under the budget

r.tanner.f

@BGM So your budget got upped? That's good.

BGM

Well, I just asked Father if I had to stay under $450. He really wants this conference room system to work well. I was a bit surprised however.

allquixotic

@r.tanner.f yeah he gave him $800 to work with to build something that'll last and provide room for potential future use cases... although I will admit to restraining laughter at the idea of 12 priestly brothers huddling around a projector watching Father Superior play SW:TOR and shoot Force Lightning at innocent Jedi >:3

BGM

Ha ha!

We have over 100 priests in our district. I am at the headquarters for our order, so am the IT person here. The priests all have to come here at one time or another, and sometimes they speak with our superiors overseas.

But on some rare occasions we do watch a movie.

r.tanner.f

8:52 PM

Oh, wow, I thought that Father Superior bit was a joke =D

BGM

No, it is no joke.

See my gravatar? In the middle is a little monagram that stands for "Maria" - that is, Our Lady.

allquixotic

I spare no expense for my computers, but I de-prioritize other things in life, like, having a "cool" car, or going out to parties and dinners and concerts, or whatever

everyone has different priorities in life. some people have barely adequate, low-end computers, but own a boat.

I sink many, many, MANY thousands of dollars every 1.5 - 2 years into a top of the line desktop computer and also a top of the line laptop, and probably now a tablet and a smartphone

it's what and who I am

r.tanner.f

@BGM I was going to ask about the gravatar next actually lol

@allquixotic I used to throw 4k worth of music equipment in the back of my pickup, and then push it to start it.

allquixotic

but it's actually a fun challenge to build a computer that'll work and satisfy a use case within a tight budget

BGM

We tend to use the same computers for 10 years. I am almost finished changing the last XP computers to Windows 7 on our LAN.

allquixotic

8:54 PM

when I'm building one for myself, I set no budget, I just buy the best components I can find

BGM

@r.tanner.f - ha ha about pushing the truck!

@allquixotic I sure appreciate your help. That task was to me a bewilderment.

allquixotic

@BGM if you had knowledge about something I needed to know, that would be a good repayment -- but hopefully someone else will repay me later on with something I need, maybe I'll be clueless about car tires or shingles on my house or carpet or something

BGM

This might surprise you - I think I've only ever used a cell phone about 20 times, and have never owned one.

allquixotic

my special domain knowledge is in computers, and for most other things I need in life, I don't have specialized knowledge, and I know EXACTLY how you feel, I kind of feel overwhelmed because there's so many choices and I don't know how to judge between them

BGM

@allquixotic - If you wanted knowledge about the Catholic faith, I might be able to help you! Ha ha!

allquixotic

8:57 PM

once in a while someone will help me HONESTLY with something like that... I had a really nice salesman one time recommend a competitor's car to me and was like, that's totally for you

BGM

I am a convert, actually. I have been under vows now for over 10 years.

allquixotic

I always try to be honest too when I'm professing any kind of domain knowledge, because it's so filthy when someone says "yes I am an expert" and then leads someone astray by upselling them intentionally or giving them bad advice

like the car mechanic that wants to replace your whole engine for a tiny broken part that costs $30

BGM

Me too. I don't believe in lying on the internet. I use "BGM" for my handle just so my name doesn't appear in search engines.

allquixotic

just know that what I specced out for you may not be perfect, it may not even work -- if I were doing this for a stipend I would professionally guarantee my work, but as is, it is "best effort" -- but I made absolutely no attempt to introduce artifice or dishonesty... what I specced, I truly believe will work

BGM

That was what I understood from you. I never thought you were "putting on".

So where are you all located (those who are listening?)

allquixotic

9:04 PM

@BGM Maryland

r.tanner.f

I'm up in Washington State

BGM

I am just north of Kansas City, in the country.

allquixotic

only things I know about in KC, MO are the Royals (booo!) and a friend who grew up there

BGM

Steak - KC strips.

allquixotic

and a friend of mine who lives in Kansas -- which, I know, isn't the same as KC, MO

BGM

9:06 PM

@allquixotic Where in Kansas?

r.tanner.f

@allquixotic TIL...

allquixotic

@BGM actually I don't remember what city. he's moving to Kearney, Nebraska, though

still doesn't help in terms of being physically near me

BGM

I lived several years in Saint Mary's, about 45 minutes from Topeka.

allquixotic

whole area is only vaguely familiar to me... rode Amtrak through the area a handful of times

I still can't believe you are so landlocked, Tanner!

no boats, no trains, no planes -- all except for a one-time ferry ride??? sheee yeeeeesh.

and my friends call me sheltered and provincial O_O

BGM

Well, I'm going to sign out. Thanks for your help. @allquixotic I promise you my Rosary. See y'all, now, God bless.

allquixotic

9:10 PM

@BGM good luck with the build! pop back in and let us know how it went ;)

BGM

Will do.

allquixotic

wow, I totally need to wrap my head around what this question is all about to keep up with storage... I thought I knew about GPT and UEFI and all that, but GPT Protective Partition?! Time to google...

1

Q: Win8x64, after format/upgrade from Win7x86, "GPT Protective Partition" on secondary drive

I backed up all important data prior to formatting the C: drive, but I cannot read the backup drive after reinstalling Windows. More details provided after the screenshots. Additionally As you can see, there are three physical disks in this system: - 1TB System (C:) drive. - 0.5TB basic MBR...

hard-drive windows-8 partitioning mbr gpt

ever heard of GPT Protective Partition @r.tanner.f ? @TomWijsman ? Looks like an answerable question but I just don't understand why it's doing that...

r.tanner.f

@allquixotic It's a little worse than that even. I was home schooled from 1st grade to 10th. We didn't have TV (it was evil) but I had unfettered access to the Internet. Since I left home I simply haven't had time to go anywhere or do anything. I've seen the world through the Internet only.

Tom Wijsman

@allquixotic I think you would need to split them up and wonder about what the Protective Partition is.

Hmm, upon a quick look it is GPT Protective Partition, heh.

allquixotic

@r.tanner.f wow -- you sound a lot like me, except I've traveled a bit across the US.... but yeah, I totally know what that's like

Tom Wijsman

9:15 PM

> Apple's Boot Camp Intel based Apple macs software creates a hybrid partition table to allow the booting of Windows (which at the time of Boot Camp's creation did not support GPT or EFI). In this system the protective partition is reduced in size to cover from sector 1 to the sector before the first regular partition included in the hybrid MBR. Additional MBR partitions are then defined to correspond to the next three GPT[citation needed] partitions.

GUID Partition Table

In computer hardware, GUID Partition Table (GPT) is a standard for the layout of the partition table on a physical hard disk. Although it forms a part of the Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI) standard (Intel's proposed replacement for the PC BIOS), it is also used on some BIOS systems because of the limitations of MBR partition tables, which use 32 bits for storing logical block addresses and size information. For disks with 512-byte sectors, the MBR partition table entries allow up to a maximum of 2.20 TB (2.20 × 1012 bytes) or 2 TiB−512 bytes (2,199,023,255,040 bytes or 4,294,967,295 (2...

Isn't that just the protective MBR?

Or protective MBR + protective partition maybe.

Oliver Salzburg

@r.tanner.f Not too long ago, to see anything of the world you had to be either rich or in a war :P

allquixotic

@TomWijsman I posted a comment asking the OP if their system is a Mac

if so, that might shed some light on why that hybrid partition table is there

Tom Wijsman

Weird though his protective partition is so big.

allquixotic

well it's exactly 2TB, which makes sense

Tom Wijsman

Maximum size of a MBR partition, I guess...

allquixotic

9:18 PM

yep

you have big GPT partition greater than 2TB. no worky on MBR. you have hybrid partition table (basically like a Quine in programming) that looks both like an MBR and like a GPT. Windows reads it as an MBR. the MBR partitions are structured so that they're unreadable, which makes sense, because you're reading a GPT partition in MBR format, so you won't be able to mount it

it's "protective" because it won't let the OS do anything to it as long as the OS is looking at it as an MBR formatted partition table

the OS has to look at it as a GPT formatted partition table in order to be able to see the full volume and mount it

so the task at hand is to "make Windows read it like a GPT"

or eliminate all traces of the MBR so it's a Pure GPT and gets read as such

I have a stupid idea, but @Bob will love it

make a Linux VM, and chuck the entire physical disk over to the VM, and let it read it as a GPT, and copy off the data

/facepalm (alternative: use a Linux live CD)

allquixotic

9:49 PM

man, a spate of really awful questions lately

they amount to "something is broken!!!!!!!!!! HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" or even more basic, "I am in the state of being aware that something is not right with the world!!!!!!!!!!"

r.tanner.f

@allquixotic And for a moment, chat looked like the subject lines of my inbox...

This question was interesting:

2

Q: Amplifying wireless signal

I need to amplify our wireless signal into a large walk-in freezer. Currently, the signal gets everywhere around the freezer, but does not penetrate the steel walls. What would be the best and cheapest way to get a strong signal into the freezer?

wireless-networking wireless-access-point repeater signal-strength amplification

I seriously do not know what the best course of action is. How would you get WiFi into a freezer?

allquixotic

@haimg raises a good point, but note that most freezers have pretty good seals on the entrances, so routing that cable in without drilling holes through the wall of the freezer may be nontrivial. — Shinrai 1 hour ago

My God, man, drilling holes in his head is not the answer. The artery must be repaired!

Tom Wijsman

Reminds me of a similar question at an airport.

Which should be on ServerFault, but can't remember its title.

r.tanner.f

10:06 PM

@allquixotic Ahh, PoE, good call

Tom Wijsman

And well, 3 words titles, cringes...

allquixotic

@r.tanner.f no, EoP :P

r.tanner.f

'er, right, haha

Tom Wijsman

Y u no like his Ethernet-over-Plumbing system?

allquixotic

@TomWijsman it's not "my" system. Google invented it.

Tom Wijsman

10:08 PM

You know that's how underground networks work, right, they lay their cables through the sewers... :D

Since the water is so dirty, you don't see there's a cable in it.

And I can imagine that somehow somewhere in the world this might actually be really happening!

-1

Q: Uninstall msxml

How do I uninstall msxml from a Windows 7 PC? I have removed associated windows updates and it still looks like it is there. My initial issue is a XML error in an application that I am using, I have checked the microsoft site for possible XML changes via KB updates which may have an incompatab...

windows-7 uninstall msxml

Two word title, kill it with fire!

allquixotic

@TomWijsman quit crapping on my internet!

Tom Wijsman

The worse the title, the worse the question.

XML error? Remove anything related to XML on your computer, then be surprised it ain't fixed.

allquixotic

wonder if you could run a SQL query over titles: trim both ends of the string for whitespace, then condense all multiple-consecutive-spaces-in-a-row down to a single space, then count the number of spaces that remain... if it's 1 or 2, auto-flag the question for very low quality

if it's 0, .... delete it? lol

Tom Wijsman

@allquixotic Title length on its own is already quite handy.

allquixotic

twitch

s/it's/its/g

ty :D

Tom Wijsman

10:16 PM

@allquixotic: Does the SE engine actually allow multiple spaces?

websolete.com/posts/t-sql-function-to-get-word-count

This one would do quite well I think.

There's only one one word title...

-1

Q: C:\Users\Home\AppData\Local\Temp\mjt0uikj.exe

Every time I restart my pc I get this message with an OK button: There was a problem starting C:\Users\Home\AppData\Local\Temp\mjt0uikj.exe (this is somehwere in ..32.dll) The specified module could not be found Im afraid it will cause problems soon enough, please let me know if you know somethi...

windows dll

data.stackexchange.com/superuser/query/65506/…

allquixotic

nice

Tom Wijsman

> created mar 29

Didn't even know I had already made one by word count.

allquixotic

people have such weird ... everything. weird questions, weird titles, weird assumptions, weird names, weird beliefs, weird experiences, weird error reports, weird configurations, ... why does everyone have to be so weird?!!?!?

3

Tom Wijsman

@allquixotic I just s/weird/mean/g that, might be just me... ^^

Correcting my sed before @allquixotic seds my sed.

2

r.tanner.f

@TomWijsman that made me lol

slhck

11:01 PM

Luke

What is the @@ for that I see mods have?

Tom Wijsman

@Luke Super Ping, they can ping anyone that hasn't been around here.

0

Q: Black Screen Of death

Just today I read a post stating that Java has a leak; so, I ran a MalwareBytes scan and it found an harmful item and thus I deleted that item. After restarting my computer from a prompt, my Lenovo v570 laptop now turns on with a black screen and a movable cursor. The tree-finger-salute does not...

lenovo

@allquixotic: Here, another case of "omg, Java has a bad virus" (it originally read that) turning into a massacre. :D

> This sounds like Windows needs to re-stabilize itself after the threat removal. I have seen this before, where it can take a few minutes to "rebuild" itself.

r.tanner.f

11:25 PM

@TomWijsman wth is that guy talking about?

Luke

11:55 PM

@r.tanner.f Not a clue...

@TomWijsman I wanna supa' ping!

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