« first day (2216 days earlier)   

12:09 AM
It looks like the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus touchscreen controller issues are not new. ifixit.com/Answers/View/298409/…
 
context?
 
Bob
@ThatBrazilianHeadlessHorse Think of it like kickstarter - to an extent you're funding development of the game.
And/or they're trying to get you to spend money without seeing how bad the game is.
 
@Bob and in the case of phyical copies helping the retailer work out how many to order
 
An iDevice repair shop isolated the problem to the touchscreen controllers literally coming off the main PCB due to the earlier "Bendgate" issues.
 
Bob
12:15 AM
Meh. Premium hardware my arse.
Rule of thumb, every manufacturer has issues, expect failures.
 
Dog
I wonder what a BOB is
 
Apple didn't use underfill to reinforce the chips' bond to the board. This wasn't an issue with iPhone 5s (and there are valid reasons for not using underfill), but this, combined with the bending issues iPhone 6 had, is leading to a high failure rate.
If you remember the NVIDIA G84/G86 failures, that was caused by bad underfill that was not rated for the high operating temperatures of the GPUs.
 
Dog
Hey @Bob, do you know what a BoB is?
 
Bob
@Dog ?
 
Dog
I'm seeing BoB's mentioned in these LTE site upgrade schematics
 
Bob
12:19 AM
...not a clue :S
 
Dog
But they're named after you!
Part number seems to be a custom one for this operator. But the closest thing is
> Fiber and Power Junction Box for 1 Hybrid Trunk / 4 Hybrid Jumper Cables with Internal Grounding
 
Bob
BreakOut Board? Box?
 
Dog
@Bob Hmm, breakout box makes sense
There's mention of a Commscope fibre+copper hybrid cable, so a breakout box does fit
And you still deny it when I say you're smart!
Hah!
 
Bob
@Dog Could also be a Big Orange Balloon
 
Dog
@Bob It's described elsewhere as grey, plastic, so it can't be a big orange balloon :-*(
 
Dog
I'm pretty sure it's a breakout box. You were right. Amazing.
 
Bob
Amazing what my tea-deprived mind comes up with, sometimes...
Now if you'll excuse me, brb more tea
 
Dog
I wonder if you can figure out every other acronym on that schematic (BOB is the only one I didn't know, so if you can figure that out... :-o)
 
Bob
@Dog Probably not... was a lucky guess; I really have no idea about any of this.
 
Dog
@Bob It's just one of our operators bunging an LTE 2600 layer on top of an existing cell site.
 
Bob
12:30 AM
Google to the rescue!
RRU => Remote Radio Unit
 
Dog
@Bob Correct!
@JourneymanGeek o_0
I have an Anker USB-C cable :-o
Never used it though, since I have no USB-C devices
 
Bob
OBF => Optical Beamformer (god that was hard to find)
 
@Dog I have one
 
Bob
RRH => Remote Radio Head
 
Dog
12:32 AM
Also, a USB-C cable remembering voltage? o_0
Must be some sort of active cable I guess?
 
Bob
Huh. I thought BBU would be battery backup unit. baseband unit... ok then...
oh well it's straight after lte
not a clue what EE is
 
Dog
@Bob Could be either tbh. The Huawei BTS' have both in the same box
"E-marker" lol
@Bob The stupidest name for a mobile operator ever ("Everything Everywhere")
So a cable that's function and safety certified and has an "unmatched" e-marker chip, fries stuff?
 
Bob
MHA => Mast Head Amplifier
UCU => Universal Combiner Unit?
 
Anker makes good products. That's all I care about.
 
Dog
@Bob: Congrats, you now have a degree in RF engineering.
 
Bob
12:36 AM
o.o
 
@bwDraco I know for a fact that a good chunk of us tend to have more modern devices and are cable snobs
Seemed the sort of thing to pop in here ;p
 
Dog
Why does a basic, straight copper cable need the ability to "remember voltage" anyway?! wtf.
 
@allquicatic is a sith lord iphone user so he should be fine since they use sith lightning cables anyway.
 
Bob
@Dog guy who found it commented here => m.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/5023o5/…
 
Dog
@Bob Well, I know RF engineers with degrees who don't know all those terms
 
12:37 AM
It's just a way to tell consumers who don't understand that a correct resistor is required (or even know what a resistor is!) that the cable is standards-compliant.
 
Bob
@Dog never said I knew what any of em actually are. but my google-fu seems to be strong this morning.
Must be the tea.
 
Hmm...
 
Dog
> This particular combination of failures was unique to this C-to-C cable. Any C-to-C cable that claims "USB3.1 Gen1/2 support" has a little IC chip inside the plug.

Anker put an "extra resistor" in there that basically short-circuited the device detection safety. Any cable with this chip has the possibility for this screwup.
Oh come on
!!extraheaddesk
 
@Dog That didn't make much sense. Use the !!/help command to learn more.
 
Bob
Anyway, as far as "remembering", that's just gawker being gawker, i.e. pants-on-head-retarded
 
12:42 AM
Manufacturing error? Something seems to have failed with this chip.
Why is complying with the USB Type-C and Power Delivery standards so difficult?
 
Bob
Because complexity.
 
Dog
Well Android Police are using the same word
 
Anker's done a lot of things right. The occasional failure can happen, and the fact that they withdrew the product so quickly means they care about making good products.
 
Bob
s/making good products/their brand image/
 
Less honest companies will often just cover it up and continue selling bad product.
 
Bob
12:45 AM
s/their brand image/not getting sued/
 
Dog
> [Attack of the Cables!] 11th #USB #TypeC analysis: Anker PowerLine 3.1Gen2 "100W" USB-IF Certified eMarked C-C cable. [Model A8185011.]
tl;dr: BAD. Spec-violating. eMarked 3A, not 5A. High IR drop. Lies about device, makes charger Vbus HOT. Somehow slipped by USB-IF Certification.
 
shrug If you have one, and use it to charge a computer and a phone...
 
Bob
@Dog idk, then *shrug*
 
Dog
How is this much stupid even possible
 
@Dog because cable makers arn't as snobby as you lot? ;p
 
Bob
12:46 AM
I'm still waiting for my Tronsmart cables
 
Dog
@JourneymanGeek Not that implausible. I for example have 4-5 micro-USB cables dangling off my 6-port USB quick charger.
I just grab one, plug it into my phone. Next day might plug it into a tablet, or a watch, or a mouse, etc.
 
I'm not feeling that bad for buying a regular micro usb type b phone after seeing all those terrible cables.
 
Dog
If it were USB-C I'd probably have a laptop connected at some point too
The cables themselves never get unplugged from the charger. So it's a totally plausible scenario.
 
It is impossible to find high quality cables in turkey
 
Bob
s/manufacturing error/design fault/
 
Dog
12:47 AM
Heck, how many people actually unplug the charger side of any laptop charger rather than just disconnecting it from the laptop?
 
@Bob Would using the actual !! s command be disruptive?
 
@Dog same ones who remove drives safely
 
Dog
@arda Not me.
 
@Dog that's only really an issue cause of USB C
The traditional chargers were hardwired to bricks
 
Dog
@JourneymanGeek Most USB-A/Micro-B chargers are not hardwired to bricks. Lenovo proprietary 20v USB cables aren't either.
 
Bob
12:48 AM
@bwDraco Is not using it being disruptive?
 
sorry @DavidPostill I was not online to read your message.
 
Bob
9 hours ago, by Bob
@allquicatic I do it with bot if I actually want to correct; without bot if I'm trying to make a joke
9 hours ago, by Bob
don't really like the bot doing an @Bob on the jokes
 
Hello Mr. Arda ^^
@varfirstName , I am part roman..... mantic.
 
Phones, maaaybe
@Dog most A/B cables arn't used at higher currents
 
@CausingUnderflowsEverywhere hi
 
Dog
12:50 AM
Considering the charger I have those USB cables dangling off is a QC 3.0 charger, then it's possible (and actually, I've done it deliberately) for it to fry a device if it accidentally "remembered" outputting 12v.
 
Hey journeyman can I have a hug?
 
Dog
(Course someone would have to implement a USB cable that had a logic chip in it that lied to the charger, pretending there's a QC device connected, but there's nothing inherent about USB-A vs. USB-C that means it can't be done with A)
 
oh dang, Sathya's name ends with an a. :)
oh yes you're on my hitlist
 
Most likely, Anker specified the wrong USB PD chip in the cable or made a mistake while designing the circuits around it.
 
Dog
> Furthermore, the cable appears to have a Rp inside of it that fakes the existence of a device. This breaks chargers and makes them Vbus HOT/dangerous. It will also break a ton of devices you plug it into -- since the Rp pulldown will be "doubled up". 5V Vconn voltages are also passed through to the CC pin (3.3 or 5v), which is BAD. 5v bleeding into a 3.3v circuit is BAD NEWS BEARS.
Fucks sake. Seriously. This level of stupid is something I'd expect from some $1.99 Ebay "fast charge" cable, not Anker.
 
12:52 AM
LOL NSA JOKE I LOVE IT @Hennes !
 
@CausingUnderflowsEverywhere No. duuuuude.
 
Dog
On another note, the fact that a simple resistor can trick a charger/host into thinking there's a device connected? That sounds like a serious flaw in the USB-C spec itself.
 
It's also possible that the problem is the USB PD controller chip itself (at which point the designer of the controller is to blame).
 
well isn't that what a battery does to charge? it resists the current?
are you saying you'd want all devices to talk over usb c to establish theres something there
 
@Dog most of the issues with USB C cables are resistor related and using specific resistors is a simple/cheap/low pin count way to set things
 
Dog
12:55 AM
@JourneymanGeek Which should not be possible.
 
why not?
detecting resistance seems to be relatively simple
 
Dog
You can't simply "use a resistor to set things" to make a QC charger output 12v for example, it needs an actual device to explicitly request 12v via the data pins.
 
unless you wanted active cables
 
Bob
@JourneymanGeek The biggest issue so far was cause Google was too cheap/stupid to properly protect their ports from overload.
 
@Dog the issues with USB C cables and quick charging was with wrong resistor values mis-negotiating no?
 
Dog
12:57 AM
@JourneymanGeek All USB-C PD cables must have an active chip anyway
 
Pretty sure this is an honest mistake. I will continue to buy Anker products. However, any product (regardless of manufacturer) that implements USB Type-C or Power Delivery will be subject to extra scrutiny because even the best manufacturers can make design mistakes.
 
Bob
They made the assumption that everything connecting to it would be perfectly to spec. They got burned. And now they're raising a massive fuss to protect themselves.
 
also, having devices explicitly request probably needs some degree more intellegence.
 
Dog
@JourneymanGeek Again, shouldn't be possible
Simply having the "wrong" resistance on a cable should not be able to cause any connection to go into "fry device" mode.
 
difference between comparing voltages/resistance/something vs "Hi, I'm an actual USB PD device. SHOW ME THE POWER!"
 
Bob
12:57 AM
@JourneymanGeek Not even.
Ok, quick summary.
 
@Dog are we talking the realm of possibility, or that strange lovely utopia of engineers who actually worry more about perfection than cost?
 
@JourneymanGeek lol @ "SHOW ME THE POWER!"
 
Bob
The whole resistor thing was meant to indicate that this is a USB-C-capable port and should be able to output 3 A.
 
Dog
@JourneymanGeek So you think it's OK to output USB-PD only voltages to a non-PD device just based on resistance? Because it's cheaper than implementing an actual PD negotiation chip?
 
Bob
That the devie was allowed to draw 3 A from the port.
 
12:59 AM
@Dog as someone who belives in proper engineering, hell no
 
Bob
Turns out some A-to-C manufacturers includes the resistor in the cable.
 
So is anyone here likely to stop buying Anker products because of this?
 
Bob
So the C device detected the A port as C and drew 3 A.
 
Historically tho, smart cables have never been sucessful.
 
Dog
@JourneymanGeek USB-PD spec requires the cable to be smart.
 
Bob
12:59 AM
Turns out certain Chromebooks didn't have adequade overload protection on their USB ports and burnt out.
 
@bwDraco nope. But if someone owns that cable, they better do the needful.
 
Bob
So, dodgy cable and shitty laptop design.
 
Dog
If the cable isn't "smart", it is not USB-PD.
 
Bob
Google went on a crusade to highlight cable issues (while not addressing their laptop design issues...)
 
Dog
Also what @Bob said.
 
1:00 AM
@Dog and smart has variable degrees of smartness.
one could 'easily' design a brilliant cable that would prevent anything bad from ever happening. Probably at twice the size, and quadriple the cost.
 
My Griffin Technology A-C cables have not had issues with this. The device doesn't attempt to draw excessive power from any of my chargers. It falls back on the old approach to charging: sensing how much power it can safely draw and only drawing that much.
 
smart monitoring ability right in time
 
Dog
I don't see your point
 
Bob
@Dog iirc the resistor thing wasn't used to change voltage. it was to identify the charger to the device, not the device to the charger. I could be misremembering though... wasn't too interested in the PD part of it cause I have no PD devices yet
 
@Dog engineering is all about compromises. At this point, I think it tends to lean towards cost over pure reliability
 
Bob
1:01 AM
Basically the resistor thing works the same way as Apple's thing. Or USB BC.
 
Dog
@Bob I know, but @JourneymanGeek seems to disagree with the fact that resistance alone shouldn't be able to trick a USB-PD negotiation
 
@Dog I'm saying its a (poor) engineering compromise
 
Bob
@Dog I dunno how the resistor thing got involved in this Anker issue :\
Seems like two different issues.
 
Reddit's giving me 503s, dammit.
 
Dog
@Bob Apparently, the resistor thing is the whole Anker issue
(The eMarker chip indicating 3A instead of 5A is a completely separate issue)
 
1:03 AM
we can agree this even happening is a bit shitty?
 
Bob
The "USB-C resistor thing" @JourneymanGeek is talking about (see: Chromebook) was for A-to-C.
 
Dog
AIUI, the resistor in the Anker cable tricks the USB-PD host into thinking a device is connected when there isn't.
 
Bob
This is C-to-C and different...
 
@Bob cause @Dog brought it up
 
Dog
Hence, you connect a 20v PD device, it requests 20v. You disconnect the 20v PD device, the host is unable to detect it being disconnected because resistor, and continues supplying 20v.
 
1:04 AM
and I was saying its a cheap way of setting a setting ;p
 
Bob
I'm confused.
@JourneymanGeek You're talking about A-to-C, yea? The cables that do not have an active IC in them at all?
cause I think @Dog is talking about the Anker C-to-C with the IC in there.
 
@Bob I was talking the general use of resistors in electronics as a way of setting things
as opposed to active signalling
or just jumpering shit
 
Dog
@JourneymanGeek But the whole point is active signalling is required by the spec for any of this to exist in the first place.
 
@Dog ah
I think I missed that
 
Dog
USB-PD does not exist without active signalling. It requires an active cable, and active negotiation by the device.
 
Bob
1:06 AM
@JourneymanGeek The resistance thing is part of detecting if the charger is capable of C current limits (and abused by A-to-C). Not whether the device supports USB-PD - that's active.
 
Dog
Indeed, the A-C resistor shenanigans was basically where the resistor was an extension of USB Battery Charging spec.
 
Any USB Type-C or Power Delivery device needs scrutiny. If even the big guys are messing up, that means the standard is hard to correctly implement and extra care is needed to ensure that you're getting a compliant product.
If even Anker and Google (!) are geting it wrong, no single manufacturer can be blamed for compliance issues.
At least my Griffin A-to-C cables work as expected and do not cause anomalous behavior with my Nexus 5X or chargers.
 
@bwDraco I don't really think we're blaming anyone ;p
 
Dog
USB-PD required FSK signalling over Vbus with v1.0 and BMC signalling over data pins on 2.0+ type-C
Without active negotiation with USB-PD, a passive port should only ever provide 5v, at up to 2A or 3A depending on resistance.
 
Bob
@Dog Oh wait I missed the "fakes the existence of a device" line. O_O
 
Dog
1:10 AM
@Bob Lol
That was sorta key to the whole issue :-P
 
Bob
brb downloading USB-PD specs. again.
 
Dog
lol
 
should be giving you 808's
 
Apparently, the USB-PD controller in the cable isn't detecting that the device was disconnected and therefore fails to signal that the charger needs to stop supplying power.
 
Dog
Funny enough that image contradicts the paragraph above it on the page it came from -_-
 
Bob
1:12 AM
> Negotiation

Over V
BUS
only, no data line usage or reliance
Start
-
up

Legacy 5V
V
BUS
start, voltage / current adjust after
negotiation
bloody 60 MB specs
 
Dog
Heh, funny this article got published less than a month ago: extremetech.com/computing/…
"How USB charging works, or how to avoid blowing up your smartphone"
> If you take a phone which came with a 900mA wall charger, and plug it into a 2,100mA iPad charger, as an example, will it blow up?

In short, no: You can plug any USB device into any USB cable and into any USB port, and nothing will explode — and in fact, using a more powerful charger should speed up battery charging. We now do this all the time with our mobile devices here at ExtremeTech, and we’ve never had a problem.
Haha WRONG! xD
 
Bob
The whole idea of communicating with the cable plug just sounds... wrong.
 
Dog
@Bob Yeah...
 
Bob
And now they're introducing cable authentication.
 
Dog
That said, having a cable be able to identify what it's capable of is a good thing
 

« first day (2216 days earlier)