English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

2:00 PM

I learned that Googling for "Japanese Brazilian" really requires that you remove "wax" from your search.

Compare 地図　(ちあう) meaning map, and チーズ, a gairaigo meaning "cheese": a Western ear would hear them both as "chizu" but the latter is pronounced with three syllables: chi-i-zu.

tchrist

> A limited number of words in Japanese use epenthetic consonants to separate vowels. An example of this is the word harusame (春雨, spring rain) which is a compound of haru and ame in which an /s/ is added to separate the final /u/ of haru and the initial /a/ of ame; note that this is a synchronic analysis (using current forms to analyze an irregularity).

If it has three syllables, a Western ear would not hear it as chizu, now would it?

Doesn’t Finnish have phonemic length?

Alenanno

@tchrist I think so.

Robusto

What makes it more complicated is that the su syllable usually has an unvoiced, or muted, vowel, but takes the same duration as other syllables. Beginning learners say desu as dess but that's not right. We pronounce sumo as soo-mo but Japanese pronounce it s'MO.

tchrist

The Brazilians have the same brainbug as the Japanese vis-à-vis McDonald’s. They say it [mɛ̞kiˈdõnɐ̞wdʒis], adding more vowels to create open syllables because closed syllables are abhorrent to their brains.

Alenanno

2:06 PM

@Robusto Or when they say "oss" for "osu" in a Karate context.

Robusto

Same goes for tsu. When the Japanese Little Leaguers said their favorite major-league player was Daisuke Matsuzaka, they pronounced his surname as Mats'zaka: the ' indicating an unvoiced syllable, which we would hear as Matszaka.

tchrist

Or you do not hear the -u.

Robusto

@tchrist If you listen carefully you can hear it. It is released as soon as it is formed, so it goes missing in our ears.

tchrist

I often cannot hear the final /u/ in European Portuguese either, but all native speakers insist that it is there, just subtle and said “under the breath”.

Robusto

Same thing. Except it takes a beat, regardless.

Alenanno

2:07 PM

Also the last vowel in Sardinian plurals. Now even natives write the plural as -s when actually it has a vowel.

For example: macchina (car) -> macchinasa (cars) but most write macchinas.

Because the last a is almost mute/not really heard.

It bothers me a ton by the way.

Robusto

なんって？ How many syllables here? Class? Bueller?

tchrist

Sardinian is. . . interesting.

(No, I won’t derail.)

Alenanno

@tchrist It certainly is. I hope you weren't sarcastic. suspicious look

Robusto

なんって？ is usually transliterated as nan 'tte.

tchrist

@Alenanno Don’t be silly. Of course I was serious. I’m a Romantic at heart.

Alenanno

2:11 PM

@Robusto This ' thing... Have you actually seen it in some books?

@tchrist :D I wish it wasn't this fragmented.

Robusto

It's an abbreviation of nan to itte 何といって。 Which means something like "What are you saying?" or "What's going on?"

Alenanno

@Robusto :D

Robusto

@Alenanno Yes, of course. There are different ways to transliterate, don't forget. Some insist on using si for (し) the shi syllable, for example, and ti for chi　(ち).

Alenanno

@Robusto Yes, but I don't think they're standard...

Robusto

All transliterations are failures.

Alenanno

2:15 PM

Well, Romaji is the standard one. While it could be counterproductive for learners, I see its use for non-learners who want to understand what is written.

Robusto

Even from simple languages that you think ought to be the same. Americans think the German voll should rhyme with our "toll" or "roll" — but it doesn't.

@Alenanno There are three main versions of romaji. Which one do you mean?

Hepburn, Nihon-Shiki, or Kunrei-Shiki?

Alenanno

@Robusto Hepburn, if I'm not mistaken. The one who says "chi, tsu" etc

tchrist

@Alenanno Well there is no central authority for Sardinian, nor unified/unifying historical literature tradition. The ipse derivation of articles instead of ille is interesting. They have 3 adverbial clitics. They add an epenthetic vowel to verbs ending in a consonant in absolute final position and most monosyllabic forms in all contexts. They mostly lack perfect tenses. They have an inflected infinitive.

Robusto

@Alenanno Right. But be aware that romaji and Hepburn are not synonyms, even if Hepburn is the most widely used.

Alenanno

Ok but it's the most used. I have found a lot of material for my studies and all of them use that system. I don't know who uses the other ones.

@Robusto Where have you studied it by the way?

Robusto

2:22 PM

@Alenanno You find a lot of Japanese using Nihon-shiki, especially the older ones. I would bet that Yoichi Oishi uses Nihon-shiki when he writes romaji.

tchrist

@Alenanno From The Romance Languages, edited by Martin Harris and Nigel Vincent. Amazon link. You would like it.

Robusto

@Alenanno At university and with private tutors, and with my extended family (my wife is Japanese, btw).

@tchrist $249.98 D:

WHAT?

@Robusto Ah! :P

2:25 PM

Get a used one for nine bucks.

It is a 500-page paperback in "trade paper" format, so large like hardcover.

Mine I probably got new for $19.95. $9 is worth it.

$250, is not.

Alenanno

I don't usually enjoy this kind of books though.

:P

tchrist

A systematic balance of diachronic and synchronic approaches, it is the most comprehensive treatment of Romance languages available for both general reference and specialized linguistic investigation, examining Latin, French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Rumanian, Catalan, Occitan, Sardinian, Rhaeto-Romance, and Romance-based pidgins and creoles.
The treatments of each Romance language, by scholars of established reputation in that language, cover all main features, including phonology, morphology, syntax, and lexis.

@Alenanno Hm, how so?

Alenanno

@tchrist I enjoy works of fiction, stories, not essay-like works.

tchrist

Ah ok.

Gigili

@Robusto Did you mean to ping someone else? That doesn't answer my question!

tchrist

2:29 PM

This is not intended to be fiction. :)

Alenanno

@tchrist Unless they're grammars. Those I enjoy, especially with exercises lol

tchrist

It’s Romance philology.

Alenanno

@Gigili He meant to ping me I think.

Robusto

@Gigili Yes, sorry.

What was your question?

tchrist

The chapter on Sardinian was written by one Michael Jones.

Gigili

2:30 PM

@Robusto No problem, just wondering.

55 mins ago, by Gigili

Hello. Suppose we have linearly separable data. Why the other kind is not called non-linearly separable data but linearly non-separable data?

tchrist

That would be a page on Sardinian phonology. It is. . . somewhat academic.

Gigili

I think I'll ask on main. Then experts like you, @tchrist and @Cerb and others will answer it in more detail.

tchrist

@Gigili What, the non-(stuff here) bit?

Alenanno

@Robusto By the way, do you speak Japanese fluently? Or you manage to follow/join a conversation with your extended family?

@tchrist Academic?

Cerberus

@Gigili I...have no idea.

tchrist

2:36 PM

Dry?

Robusto

@Alenanno I would not call myself fluent, but I can get by. I can understand Japanese TV and most conversations, except when they start to talk really fast or have a mouth full of noodles, etc.

tchrist

Specialist?

I don’t know your background, so don’t know the fit.

Alenanno

@Robusto lmao! That's great though. I'm kind fo struggling since I'm a self-learner, but I think I found a good penpal, i.e. one of those that actually help you.

tchrist

Most adventure novels don’t speak of lenition or metathesis, or even palatalization.

Alenanno

@tchrist Ah got it. I did study Linguistics, but I can handle it in small chunks, not whole books.

It's not my choice, I just can't have myself like reading that kind of stuff. I could never be a researcher.

tchrist

2:39 PM

Cerberus

@Gigili Aren't there several kinds? 1. Linearly inseparable data = data that cannot be separated in a linear way. 2. Non-linearly separable data = data that can be separated in a non-linear way. 3. Non-linearly-separable data = data that cannot be separated in a linear way (same as 1.).

tchrist

@Alenanno You might be more interested in the lexis portion than in the phonology portion. Or not.

Books like this you do not read all at once. They are reference books. You might read a whole chapter at once, though.

The per-chapter bibliographies are especially useful for those wishing to pursue more in-depth research.

Alenanno

@tchrist Did you read it all?

tchrist

@Alenanno Sure, but I’m funny that way.

I hope you now see that I was being in no fashion sarcastic when I said I found Sardinian interesting. :)

Alenanno

@tchrist I saw that earlier too! :)

StoneyB

2:52 PM

I just discovered this news story, which I would think would be of interest to users. Would it be appropriate to post it on Meta?

Alenanno

The title of the article is misleading.

From the title it seems Scots has disappeared, while only a local accent (a dialect of Scots) known as Cromarty fisherfolk has disappeared.

By the way, it's not really appropriate for Meta, but well...

Henning Klevjer

In the following sentence, the full stop after "etc" ends the abbreviation, but the last full stop should of course also be there?
"Bla, bla and bla, etc. (which are all words)."

StoneyB

@Alenanno Quite so. Apparently an unusual dialect (though I suppose they're all unusual). Just wanted to share it with somebody who might appreciate it. I suppose I've done that now!

Henning Klevjer

Or is the etc-one "the ." not called a full stop when ending the abbreviation?

Alenanno

@HenningKlevjer Yes.

Cerberus

3:00 PM

@StoneyB I would write it like this, yes.

@HenningKlevjer It is not.

A dot.

Henning Klevjer

Really. Wikipedia says "A full stop is used after some abbreviations."

But that makes more sense, seeing as nothing is "fully stopped"

Thanks, both

Cerberus

@HenningKlevjer That is slightly inaccurate.

Alenanno

You're welcome!

Cerberus

But venial.

@HenningKlevjer Exactly.

@HenningKlevjer The rule is: always write dots where you would normally need them, except in the case of two successive dots: then just write one dot.

2

At least that's what I was told.

Gigili

3:22 PM

@tchrist Yes, that.

Or maybe not.

@Cerberus What's the difference between linearly inseparable data and linearly non-separable data?

In the case I am reading in my book, the two classes are not linearly separable. I'd say non-(linearly separable) data as tchrist suggested.

I have an exam tomorrow! pops out

Alenanno

@Gigili Do you have problems with internet?

... grr double post.

tchrist

3:41 PM

What is the comparative degree of tired looking? Is it tireder looking? :)

Why is the comparative degree of dire not ∗direr instead of more dire, given that its superlative degree is direst? Does all the resulting r really block that form?

My problem is that fair goes to fairer. So I am thinking that dire and tired have two syllables where fair has one, and that that is what is blocking it.

JSBձոգչ

4:06 PM

@tchrist i think that it's the combination of -rer and the preceding diphthong

i'm not convinced that [aɪɹ] should be qualified as two syllables, but it's at least a heavy-enough single syllable to block the -er comparative

tired OTOH is clearly two syllables

but in that case it's because [jrd] is not a legal coda, so the [r] becomes syllabic

Alenanno

Perhaps a different wording of this question would sound nice on Linguistics...

5

Q: Is the [ʊ] sound pronounced with lip rounding?

This [ʊ] sound is the vowel sound for words like hook, pull, and good. When I really started learning English two decades ago, the book I used taught me to pronounce it short and more relaxed than the long sound of [u], the vowel sound in words like pool, food, and cool. It also told me to round ...

Cerberus

@Gigili I would say they mean the same thing.

@Gigili I would just say "not linearly separable".

user19161

@mah Boo!

Mahnax

@WillHunting Hello.

How are you today?

user19161

@Mahnax Same. Have you been learning LaTeX ever since you installed it?

Mahnax

4:20 PM

@WillHunting No, not really.

But I think I will soon, because it will be helpful for making nice equations and things.

user19161

@Mahnax Hmm, OK. It would be nice to learn it before you major in mathematics.

Mahnax

@WillHunting Yes, I agree.

Alenanno

It's not that hard...

It requires practice.

Mahnax

Actually, I think I tried to make a few equations last week, but I couldn't get it to work.

Alenanno

If you have questions, you can go here:

$TeX - LaTeX$

Mahnax

4:23 PM

Right.

Alenanno

They are very helpful! :)

I ask there a lot eheh

user19161

The world's leading TeX experts are on TeX SE. This is not the case with other SE sites.

Alenanno

Who knows. They might be hiding in the other sites.

Mahnax

@WillHunting Not even Maths.SE?

user19161

@Mahnax No, there are no famous mathematicians there. They are too busy solving problems in real life to be there.

Mahnax

4:26 PM

@WillHunting Haha, okay.

Well, I've gotten something to work in LaTeX.

user19161

@Mahnax I would not have joined SE if not for the various things you know about me/ =)

user19161

@Mahnax Have you at least read the standard intro? Use Oetiker's A not so short introduction to LaTeX included in a full TeX Live install under name lshort.

Mahnax

@WillHunting Hrm, okay.

I will read it when I get home.

There, I've done something.

Oops.

Alenanno

@Mahnax Why deleting that?

tchrist

Do people really believe this answer? Everything I have ever read says that it is completely wrong:

7

A: Is it correct to write "a 5-mm-thick layer"?

It is incorrect to write "a 5-mm-thick layer". Rather, it should be written: a 5 mm-thick layer or, better, a five millimeter-thick layer 5 mm-thick is a compound adjective formed from the adjectives 5 mm and thick, and it modifies layer. Consider: a 5-mm layer/a 5 mm layer (...

Mahnax

4:38 PM

@Alenanno It wasn't nicely solvable.

Well, I'm off.

tchrist

@WillHunting Sometimes it is.

@JSBձոգչ I’m just not sure that [ʊw] can ever occur without fusion.

user19161

5:53 PM

@tchrist Yes, like yourself, a perl expert. =)

Joseph Weissman

tchrist

There is something preciously ironic, or potentially trollish, about somebody gullibly putting his trust in a broken piece of idiot software. I mean, how much more gullibly could he have behaved?

user19161

@tchrist I know what question that is.

tchrist

@JosephWeissman What’s that?

Joseph Weissman

7:37 PM

Perl :)

tchrist

7:57 PM

Yah yah, I saw. Hence my question.

@JosephWeissman It works better that way.

JSBձոգչ

@tchrist bah. a real perl programmer would write print "I will not throw paper airplanes in class\n"x500;

Carlo_R.

Hello everyone.

Joseph Weissman

8:18 PM

hello!!

/though i guess i'm not everyone, per se. just another someone. even possibly nobody at all, at least according to (presumably) some somebodies.

tchrist

Carlo_R.

Sorry, Joseph; my English is so bad that I cannot chat with nobody. Only with everyone.

tchrist

Mahnax

Reg will have your head.

tchrist

Mahnax

8:25 PM

Hey, I'm in 11th grade.

tchrist

That is just what I was thinking.

Mahnax

And I have a long weekend right now…

A nine-day weekend, in fact.

@Mahnax really? o_O

@JSBձոգչ Yessir.

astounding

8:27 PM

@Mahnax If you have a nine-day weekend, I’d hate to see your week!

JSBձոգչ

it's been more than 11 years since i was in 11th grade

Mahnax

@tchrist I'd hate to as well, but luckily it's been absorbed by the weekend.

tchrist

Time to spend more time necking: one more and I’ll’ve again romanced ELU.

Carlo_R.

8:41 PM

Is it correct to say "I am a child whom like to play."?

user19161

@Carlo_R. I am a child who likes to play.

Carlo_R.

Hello @Will, thank you. To me it is difficult the difference between whom and who.

user19161

@Carlo_R. Go to grammarbook.com and read through the whole site. There is a section on whom vs who there.

Carlo_R.

Oh, thank you so much.

JSBձոգչ

@Carlo_R. i rather recommend that you never use whom

the form is essentially extinct, and the "proper" rules for its use are obscure and ridiculous

MετάEd

8:45 PM

@JSBձոգչ Cthulhic Church

Carlo_R.

@JSB :)

tchrist

@JSBձոգչ I don’t mind someone who uses who where whom might be said to be formally called for, but people who use whom where who is required drive me absolutely up the wall and over the roof.

> That wasn’t the fellow who I thought you were going to say was coming.

Which is correct, but the prissies always get it wrong.

@JSBձոգչ I can’t comment on the ridicule portion, but do you truly find the simple rule to use who for subjects and whom for objects to be “obscure”? If it’s so hard, how come people always get he/him right?

Carlo_R.

Meta, do you know that "scrupuli" is almost an Italian word?

If I well remember, you have a blog named "Scrupuli".

But, we say "scrupoli".

2

Q: When there are several appendices, what is that part of a book called?

If a book has one appendix, it is The Appendix. Now consider a book with three appendices (or, if you like, appendixes), named Appendix A, Appendix B, and Appendix C. The part of the book, which is formed by these, is called still The Appendix, because it is that part of the book, composed of ...

word-choice grammatical-number books

It is strange that no one had suggested the word "endmatter" here.

I have found that "endmatter" covers the various item included at the back of a book.

But, I do not know if OED has this entry.

Mahnax

9:02 PM

Nope.

Carlo_R.

@Mah :)

user19161

By the way @mah I have infected many people in the math room with the QED virus as well.

Carlo_R.

"When they have finished with you."

tchrist

@Mahnax You just need a better grepper:

> 1966 H. Williamson Methods Bk. Design (ed. 2) xii. 176 ― American designers sometimes use the terms ‘front matter’ and ‘end matter’.

Carlo_R.

"She was finished with planning"

tchrist

9:08 PM

That is under front, where it defines front matter.

Carlo_R.

Is there someone who notes a remarcable difference there?

tchrist

Of course.

Carlo_R.

@tchrist yes, in the first case it is used "have", while in the second one it is used "be".

Strange!?

tchrist

No.

Carlo_R.

Why, if I may ask?

tchrist

9:11 PM

I am finished with you is not the same as I have finished with you.

When they have finished with you sounds like they did something to you.

But if she is simply finished with her planning, then she is done with it.

Carlo_R.

@tchrist yes, but how would we say at the end of a love story?

tchrist

That would be to be finished, not to have finished.

Carlo_R.

"I have finished with you" or "I was finished with you"

Mahnax

@WillHunting Oh dear.

Carlo_R.

@tchrist do you use to say "promptitude" to mean the attitude to prompt?

@Mah is "oh dear" similar in meaning to "oh my God"?

Mahnax

9:26 PM

@Carlo_R. Not really.

MετάEd

@Carlo_R. Yes, in fact it is a Latin word.

Carlo_R.

Is there someone who is under the impression that the community is tired?

I see a few people on line, and in chat is a tragedy.

no one want to speak, David Wallace is no longer here.

Except Reg, no one is working to edit the questions.

the Barrie's answers are becoming always more short.

J.R and Andrew Leach are wasting their time to comment the questions rather than to answer it.

Is this the starting of the end?

poof

user19161

11:18 PM

@Carlo_R. I think you are imagining things. ELU will not end anytime soon. This is only the beginning of a great adventure.

JSBձոգչ

11:53 PM

@tchrist whom has to respond to two different case markings, that of the antecedent in the matrix clause, and the case marking of the pronoun in the relative clause

in principle the latter is what determines who/whom, but people often get this wrong

to say nothing of the whole matter of fronting and preposition stranding, which is the other thing that confounds people

since i would judge it ungrammatical to use whom with a stranded preposition, demanding instead that you bring the preposition to the front; but you can freely front who and leave the preposition behind

which means that in order to use whom properly you have to do not one but two unnatural things for the grammar of english

(the first one being to use whom in the first place)

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…