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12:13 AM
@Emrakul I noticed recently a difference between mods and ordinary users in what they (often) want out of a meta debate. Ordinary users want things to go their way; mods just want a clear policy which they can enforce.
(Also, I may as well state for the record that I would endorse you as a mod here, even though I'm pretty sure I've already said so in private chat.)
@Randal'Thor How do you set up private chats?
@Benjamin It's a mod-only thing.
The closest non-mods can get is 'gallery' rooms (everyone can read, only approved users can talk).
@Randal'Thor Oh.
And even those need some rep level (1k? 10k?) to set up.
1k, I think.
Well, I wish non-mods, like trusted users could set them up because I am on track for trusted user, but don't have time to mod.
12:18 AM
And really, they're not meant to be used very often if at all
The only real use case is for mods to speak to a user about an issue
(and even "private" rooms aren't truly private on the network)
A: Any way to send a personal message to another user?

dbrNope. This has been suggested many, many times, going all the way back to the earliest days of the site. Prior to the creation of Meta SO, feature requests were posted on UserVoice: Messaging between users Declined without comment. User messaging or wall it's possible we might have so...

Yeah, "private" means "can be seen by all SE employees and mods of the associated site as well as anyone who has explicit access".
...I once saw a room try to use gallery mode to keep out mods who were warning them to use nicer language.
Heh, that doesn't work.
They were very confused.
12:22 AM
I can see how they thought it might work, but yeah, it doesn't
(Also keep in mind that when/if the site graduates, rep thresholds for things will change. Just a general note that I tend to forget, although I tend to forget that beta sites have lower thresholds so I keep getting surprised at what I can do :P)
It was symptomatic of a much deeper confusion about the nature of chat.
It ain't that easy to stop mods from doing their jobs.
@Ash Rep thresholds change even from private to public beta.
Eventually they took it to meta.se, where a Mjölnir of mods told them exactly what side their bread should be buttered on.
Ooh, Steward badge on ELU.
ELU has a lot of Low Quality Posts.
@Randal'Thor I would be fine with that.
12:27 AM
@Benjamin Sure, but it's also "only to be used for moderation purposes".
@Randal'Thor yes that too :)
@Randal'Thor Oh, okay.
E.g. mods talking to a user about an issue, like Ash said.
@Randal'Thor What are they in public beta?
Yeah, they're pretty much intended for just mod stuff and nothing else - the network's not really the place for non-open communication :)
12:29 AM
A: Reputation requirements compared

Adam LearAlternatively, see reputation tables for Stack Overflow, Server Fault, Super User, a launched SE 2.0 site, a public beta site. And Meta Stack Exchange. Main sites Action Priv β Public β Designed SO ─────────────────────────────────────────────── ...

@Randal'Thor ooh, that chart's handy
Yes, it is. I now need to get over 2000 rep in 14 days.
TL;DR: the threshold for everything that can be done with 1 rep in private beta (except creating a post) gets much higher, and nearly every other threshold doubles.
@Benjamin Why?
@Randal'Thor So, I keep access to queues when we get into public.
@Benjamin You don't need 2000 rep to access any review queues in public beta.
You might be getting mixed up with graduated sites.
12:35 AM
@Randal'Thor Oh, I am.
@Randal'Thor which site's private chat? if applicable
@Riker It's a secret.
ah ok
12:54 AM
FIRE!!, a 1920s Harlem magazine "devoted to younger negro artists," is reborn as FIYAH, "a magazine of black speculative fiction."
1 hour later…
2:05 AM
Man we had an hour of silence.
I assume everyone's reading FIYAH.
@BESW I would if it weren't speculative fiction, which I like, but only in specific doses.
4 hours later…
6:21 AM
I have half a mind to start a chatroom for totally out of context quotes from books.
2 hours later…
8:21 AM
@Riker I did some tag edits. I just followed suit on what the other tags looked like. Let me know if they are correct. You have enough rep to approve them, don't you?
3 hours later…
11:06 AM
I think I may be being serially downvoted.
11:38 AM
@Benjamin What makes you think that?
12:16 PM
Q: 'The Art of War' by Sun Tzu: When and where it was adopted first outside of China?

BookeaterWhile of ancient origin and being still relevant today, much is speculation about the military classic 'The Art of War' by Sun Tzu. Even the existence of the author is disputed. He allegedly served the state of Wu which ceased to exist 473 B.C., making his thoughts his only legacy. Anyway it orig...

@Benjamin Hmm, your rep history does look a bit suspicious.
Nothing reversed by the serial voting algorithm yet?
If you're really worried about it, you could raise a flag and ask the CMs to look into it.
@steelersquirrel I got 5 downvotes at once.
@Randal'Thor Nope.
@Randal'Thor Where would I do that?
@Benjamin Just raise a flag on any post (a random one of your own posts, for instance). They'll see it.
@Randal'Thor Thanks! I just did that.
Do they generally look at those on weekends or only during the workweek?
12:35 PM
@Benjamin I've no idea.
They're not like normal mods, for whom SE is a spare-time thing.
12:50 PM
@S.C. Hi, welcome to Literature!
1:04 PM
@Benjamin there is also a vote fraud detection script, so if it was one user, doing it in serial, the votes may be reversed.
1:27 PM
The feed is running extremely slowly this morning.
1 hour later…
2:27 PM
Gained access to all review queues - nothing to review. tumbleweeds
@Gallifreyan there is now!
Q: Is Julián Carax based on a real author?

BenjaminIn The Shadow of the Wind by Carlos Ruiz Zafón, Zafón has the main character discover a book entitled The Shadow of the Wind in the Cemetery of the Forgotten Books. This book is by a little-known author, Julián Carax, who was not very well-received by critics and many of his books have been destr...

Q: what are some books about: literature influence on history and the world?

S. Rafaelcan you suggest some good books about: literature influence on history and the world? I've already tried to search the net a lot but couldn't find anything useful thanks in advance

@Bookworm I was literally in the middle of leaving a comment there.
Did OP delete it?
@steelersquirrel "voluntarily removed by its author"
2:41 PM
3:00 PM
@steelersquirrel Nothing wrong with that.
It's the kind of question we definitely don't want here anyway.
I just hope the OP will still post some better ones instead.
@Randal'Thor I know. That's why I said "Hmmmm" I was being like Ankit :P
Another recommendation question bites the dust.
I really do hope we don't get those here. Folks seem pretty clearly against them.
1 hour later…
4:28 PM
@HDE226868 There's a clear meta consensus against them, so we have good grounds to close every one that comes in (including with modhammers, once there are some of those on the site).
@HDE226868 You'll likely get them, that can't be helped (especially as the site gathers steam) but having a clear idea of what you want to do with them and a community with the tools to hammer them/improve them/deal with them is what's important
(Like Arqade doesn't allow ITG stuff, but they still happen. We just have a community of people with hammers at the ready.)
@Ash I think we fleshed that out pretty early, and people are well aware that recommendation questions hurt the first Literature site, so I'm not very concerned.
@Randal'Thor Absolutely.
@HDE226868 Yep, I had that meta post all written out before the site even started :-)
@HDE226868 Yeah, it's good people were on top of that decision from the get go - it's much easier to decide that now than say a bajillion years after the site graduates >.<
I want to try to ask some decent literary questions about the romances I am reading but I am struggling >.<
I feel like there are definitely things that could be asked about, I'm just not the best at uncovering them
It's frustrating me some because I love reading, I'm averaging a bit more than a book a day right now, but I've only managed two questions here
@Ash I have the same problem when asking questions on Mythology. Sometimes the best questions lie in the hidden details, and I might read a myth two or three times before finding one.
4:38 PM
Think anyone's likely to trump this answer? I'm a bit reluctant to accept stuff too quickly, especially a self-answer. But I think I've made a pretty conclusive case here, so if others agree, I'll go ahead and accept it.
Also, Standback's answer here needs more love. It's much better than the accepted answer (mine) - I was in a hurry and underperformed.
on a similar note, what about this one? looks like an amazing answer to me, but emrakul cautioned me against accepting his answer too fast
@Riker I've already upvoted it - it's definitely good. But yeah, I'd say wait for a few days to see if anything better comes along.
hm, okay
BTW: It's no use pinging me to do anything when it's Friday night through Saturday night.
ah okay
4:48 PM
Especially on a site like Literature, it's often not a good idea to accept an answer too quickly. Someone else might post a more convincing argument, either for the same conclusion or a different one, which you might consider more accept-worthy. Of course you can always transfer the tick later, but accepting an answer sometimes discourages others from answering at all.
hm okay
@Mithrandir that's over now right
Looks like @Riker is on a loop of "okay"s :-P
@Riker awww, thanks ^_^
@Riker yep
@Gallifreyan <3
@Mithrandir just out of curiosity, do you cook all your food on friday then?
4:50 PM
@Riker my mother does
I don't cook :P
figured as much
my cooking generally makes a cross between baked alaska and scrambled eggs
namely the fire part from the former and the blackened husk of the latter
Hehe, noobies :P
I can cook quesadillas?
and tamales
and most mexican food + frozen pizza
4:52 PM
I can order pizza...
@Riker Baked alaska?
wait wat you haven't ahd it
Sounds like an Americanism.
@steelersquirrel please help rand he needs seriosu help
Maybe I have had it, but under a different name.
What is it?
4:53 PM
liquor of sorts lit on fire on top of a kind of cake
Anyway let, off again for now. Have some things to do. Back soon.
@Mithrandir see ya!
That doesn't count as "food", to be honest
yes it does
Blimey. Minus the liquor and fire, it looks delicious.
4:54 PM
generally you let it burn out or put it out before consuming
though generally fire goes out as soon as it enters your mouth due to lack of oxygen in there (just in general, haven't tried that with baked alaska)
@Riker I should hope so!
@Randal'Thor so you haven't eaten it?
@Riker Don't think so.
@steelersquirrel I called it! you need to teach rand how to be a americanized being and support football, star wars, and american desserts
4:58 PM
@Riker I may take offence at the suggestion that being non-American and uninterested in football and SW is 'uncivilised'.
At least I can SPELL 'civilised', unlike you with your Z's :-P
you can't spell offense either I see :P
@Riker Americanised? Over my dead body!
you can modabuse that into americanised if you want
@Riker The s-version is for verbs. Like counsel and council, or advise and advice.
5:01 PM
I take offence that all online spell checkers and search engines accept British spelling as wrong
@steelersquirrel Hemingway question for you: literature.stackexchange.com/q/1104/17 Not sure if it's quite the right place to use the quote from the help centre, unfortunately.
@Gallifreyan Well, the US dominates the internet.
Combine that with a non-native who was taught the British spelling, and you get someone who is in serious doubt about what he/she has been taught for 7 years
@Gallifreyan Are you European?
If so, stay strong and use the British spelling! :-)
@Randal'Thor Apparently, our teacher in Russia was an Anglophile of sorts
Don't know if it was an accepted practice back then
FWIW, I wouldn't have guessed you were a non-native speaker, from what I've seen of your writing.
5:05 PM
@Randal'Thor It's getting harder even to see the British spelling. Thankfully, they still print Pratchett's books in actual English :)
@Randal'Thor if I move to the UK/EU do I have to use those spellings
@Gallifreyan "actual english" meaning american or british?
@Riker British, of course.
>_> not asking the british fanatic
We speak proper English, not a variant that's sprung up in some new country.
Riker has a great chance to do a nitpick and say that actual English was spoken by Anglo-saxons, or whatever tribe of skirted men
5:07 PM
@Gallifreyan true
let's pretend I did that I'm a bit busy making a parody photo of rand's fanaticism
user image
awww I should have make it pedant beta
too late now methinks
Abuse of the inspect tool...
@Gallifreyan I don't know what any of those things are.
@Randal'Thor if I change "rand-ness" to pedant will you add a link to this in your profile description
@Mithrandir *inspect element but ikr
@Randal'Thor sighs @Gallifreyan he knows nothing about computers except what you need to use them
@Riker IMHO emacs and vim and nano are for dinosaurs. Us Homo Sapiens use Sublime
@Riker No. It has to be "pedantry". Also I'm not sure if I approve of "Fanatic" being used for that particular achievement ... and the timestamp and rep/badges need to be something more numerologically interesting.
I'm a perfectionist. So sue me.
5:13 PM
At least when I use the inspect element I use it for something useful, like convincing my parents that National Geographic is running an article that there are aliens on the Moon.
(They didn't fall for it, but whatever.)
@Gallifreyan vim4life
@Randal'Thor ah ok
@Randal'Thor sorry, that was just copied from you getting outspoken
@Mithrandir Define "useful" :-P
@Riker Yeah, I gathered it was copied from some real badge or other.
@Riker make another one for Valorum? Let the salty comments flow
What, that isn't useful? :D
5:16 PM
@Gallifreyan lol
@Mithrandir lol
you mean another image?
Need 5 more suggested edit reviews to get the proofreader badge
Is there a program that pings you when there's a suggested edit?
Catching the in time is a killer
I wonder how a question about a novel in the Star Trek universe would go over...
@Gallifreyan There probably is, given Jason Baker's unnatural ability to review nearly everything.
@Gallifreyan will do in a bit
If you want to review the same post like in First Posts and Late Answers you have to open it in a new tab and click on the other one so that they are open at the same time
Just a BTW :P
5:21 PM
@Mithrandir I'm trying to keep away from those queues, since they attract a lot of crap on SFF
Or at least my last ones did
it's a modified version of a "Review Stalker" stack app
it automatically refreshes the review tabs and will redirect and open all review queues in new tabs
it's nice
Remind me when I'm on my computer
@Riker It's cheating is what it is :-P
will do
@Randal'Thor yes but we don't all have magic mod review powers
I stand firm in my belief of your magic powers
@Riker how do I apply this? :D
5:25 PM
what browser do you use?
This must be how people like Jon Mark Perry manage to review everything ridiculously fast.
@Riker Neither do I, on any site but one.
...... really?
5:25 PM
On Ubuntu
or no you're just joking
you actually use opera?
On Ubuntu
doesn't matter the OS just browser
@Mithrandir install tampermonkey extension, -> create new script, -> copy paste the gist into the new script
5:26 PM
Have it already, but thanks
ah ok then just make it a nwe srcipt
@Gallifreyan o-o why opera
why not chrome
Me likes it
To hit the last nail on the coffin, I was using Vivaldi a week ago
5:28 PM
o_O ok something is wrong with you /s
figure out where your "dashboard" is and "create a new script"
delete what (if anything) is in the new script and paste the gist in
@Riker I hit "Raw" near your gist and the hit "install" in the new window
yep that works
So how does that work?
when you open a review page, it will automatically redirect you to any (if applicable) review queues you can access
i.e. if there's 1 close vote, it will open the close vote review queue with the item in it for you
if there's more than 1 different kind of review, it will open the others in new tabs
Wow, that's very cool
5:31 PM
and you if you leave a tab open then it will refresh it in the background
Thanks a lot!
Now to fork it adding a feature that'll automatically refresh and open reviews without visiting the review page
And let them pile in background tabs! Muahahahaha
@Randal'Thor what's that for?
he think it's cheating
@Randal'Thor how many silver/bronze badges do you want?
1, 4, 9 for gold, silver, bronze work?
5:34 PM
@Mithrandir I don't like the whole idea of using technology to get to reviews ahead of everybody else.
Why is it that all of my userscripts are for SE? O_o
@Riker I dunno ... 1234 rep, 5 silver, 67 bronze?
1234k rep coming up
Where did that k come from?
@Randal'Thor so you wouldn't approve of SmokeDetector automatically flagging things either?
5:36 PM
@Randal'Thor looks cooler IMO
damnit I cleared my work redoing
@Mithrandir If Smokey automatically flags things using the Smokey account, well, that's what it's for.
If people use automatic Smokey flags to get themselves Marshal badges ...
Art said he got a few new Deputy badges...
I know there's nothing technically wrong with using userscripts like that. It just feels like cheating.
Think of it this way: like this, the moderation is taken care of more quickly.
@Mithrandir But taken care of mainly by the people with fancy userscripts, which is no qualification for being actually good at reviewing.
5:39 PM
People are zealous to help :P
@Randal'Thor and that's why we have audits and mods
@Mithrandir A very few sites have audits.
And mods usually have better things to do than trawl through review histories by hand.
We don't even have mods here yet.
@Randal'Thor better?
I also changed the questions, users, unanswered, and ask a question links
Better, but still not perfect.
what shoudl I change?
I copied the source so I can easily change it still
@Riker Don't worry about satisfying me :-)
5:52 PM
lol ok
@Randal'Thor let's put it this way: do you trust Riker, Gall, and I to generally do a good job?
@mods can you edit the starred picture from 50 min ago to have the one I just linked?
@Mithrandir Regardless of that, I still think other people should be able to get a look in too.
Like I said, having a fancy userscript doesn't qualify someone to be the best at reviewing.
@Mithrandir also since you seem to know how to inspect-element-modify stuff, html for that image
only works on a lit page though (when you copy-paste it in) because of the css styling and stuff
@Randal'Thor right, I actually agree. We're not online all the time :P
@Riker not any other beta site?
6:03 PM
idk haven't tested
Cause all beta sites have the same look
ye testing
it does work!
at least on spanish.se
Q: Why was the previous Literature SE closed?

tobiasvlWhat's the history behind the first Literature StackExchange? Why was it closed? How can we avoid the same thing from happening to this one?

@Librarian I was fairly sure that that was a duplicate but I can't find it
@Mithrandir It's a duplicate of questions on main meta and Area 51 'meta', but that doesn't count.
I've provided the relevant links in comments.
6:13 PM
I see, but I thought there was a 'how do we prevent this from failing like the other one' on meta.literature.stackexchange.com
Maybe not
So there's only one problem that I have with the site: it's hard to be able to answer questions and still recognize questions about other works, since this covers several genres and lots and lots and lots of works.
@Mithrandir I don't understand what you mean.
How does answering questions stop you from recognising other questions?
Or what do you mean by 'recognise'?
A: Who are the experts? Not us. We've grown a philosophical bezoar - let's work this through!

Matt ThrowerA good question. First, let's address the question of what the site should be. I would strongly argue that we have to go for the "expert literature" hat. "Books SE" is a weak proposition for two reasons. Firstly, it's too woolly for the Q&A format in my opinion and is likely to turn into a moras...

Like, I don't recognize most of these poems
I'm more of a book guy.
While I do read poetry, it's not my focus.
Get what I'm saying now?
@Emrakul @BESW I finally got round to editing my answer to the "bezoar" meta question. Hopefully it's a bit clearer now what I'm actually saying, and maybe easier to agree with?
6:26 PM
@Mithrandir ye
@Mithrandir No?
@Riker hmm. Will your script open review tabs automatically if I leave the review page open?
at least it does for me
if it doesn't, it's likely opera not supporting background processes
I thought both Chrome and Opera use the same engine
no clue
6:33 PM
Tampermonkey says there are semicolons missing
Not much activity on the site today.
Everyone go ask questions :P
@Mithrandir I posted one today, which so far is on track for Tumbleweed :-/
Also got an idea for another one while writing that one.
I'm still considering asking a Star Trek Expanded Universe question...
@Randal'Thor Meh. We had a downturn last Saturday, too, as expected.
6:47 PM
@Mithrandir At the risk of sounding like one of those people who doesn't understand site overlap ... you might get more expert answers to that at SFF.
From Star Trek experts, rather than book experts.
That I know. It would be an experiment.
@HDE226868 Nowhere near as much as today, I think.
Also, why'd you delete those? I didn't mind. I starred it :P
@Randal'Thor Ah good, you've posted a story-id on Tuesday. I missed that. literature.stackexchange.com/q/832/139
Pity it's one that would probably be on topic on sci-fi
hm I have one also maybe on-topic for scifi though
6:51 PM
@b_jonas That's @Mithrandir's. Mine was literature.stackexchange.com/q/815/17
I'll do it here anyway
@Mithrandir Flagged as obsolete? ;-)
@b_jonas nooo. I am not a sock.
@Randal'Thor btw do you mind editing the starred message of mine to have the new image?
Hmm. A tag can't include a period at the end?
6:52 PM
or ?/! iirc
@Riker sigh Sure. Done :-)
@Mithrandir Can tags have any punctuation other than hyphens?
@Randal'Thor what, you don't like mod abuse?
@Randal'Thor iirc they can have them in the middle?
periods at least
6:54 PM
@Randal'Thor Oh. I got confused, sorry.
@Riker sigh pedant
I know they can't have apostrophes, which is a shame for certain character tags (cough [tag:rand-al'thor] cough).
@Randal'Thor I thought so, because I thought so might need something like that
@Mithrandir I'm not completely sure what I think of this whole business of putting me on Pedantry SE.
I guess it's a compliment :-)
I should show it to @WadCheber too.
@Mithrandir Oh, maybe. ?
@Randal'Thor periods in the middle, hashmarks anywhere, and _ becomes a plain hyphen
just tested
(didn't submit edit don't worry)
6:56 PM
@Mithrandir Pedantry is always something I can get behind! — Rand al'Thor Jan 23 at 17:57
oh and + anywhere
I've seen some children's book with a protagonist that can hypnotize everyone, but I don't think it's the same one as literature.stackexchange.com/q/832/139 , because the one I saw is older.
@Randal'Thor ^
I'll look at the other story-id querstions too then
@Randal'Thor do you want to add a lit feed to sff(assuming you can add a feed from a private beta) like we do with movies, maybe pick a few specific tags like lotr, hp, ect
6:57 PM
@b_jonas hmm. You'll notice that I accepted an answer there already ::)
@Randal'Thor yes, they can have pluses and hash marks and more, because of language tags on SO. I think there's a question on meta, let me find it
@b_jonas They've mostly been pretty good so far. We even managed to get Sean Duggan / FuzzyBoots over here to post one!
periods in the middle, hashmarks and plus signs anywhere, and underscores are moved into hyphens looks like
in addition, hitting , or ; will just let you add a new tag
Q: Allow more character options in tags

OakRight now the sidebar says that the allowed characters for tags are: tag characters: [a-z 0-9 + # - .] Is it possible to extend this to support other characters? As the Stack-Exchange network gets bigger, more and more use-cases seem to appear for additional characters. For example, the "!...

I'm pretty sure they're not the same people...
6:58 PM
@Himarm Probably best to wait until public beta? Since people without Lit accounts will get frustrated to see the onebox and not be able to follow the link.
A: What symbols/characters are not allowed in tags?

BrandonOn the sidebar it says that these are the Tag Characters: Tag characters: [a-z 0-9 + # - .] I'd assume anything not listed there is invalid.

also accents are stripped
@Mithrandir Sure, there's an accepted answer, but I still wanted to find out if it's the same book I remembered. It's not.

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