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12:15 AM
@BESW Edited that answer. I think it's better, but could probably still do with more work, especially towards the end.
12:46 AM
@Randal'Thor I'd normally be against undeleting a post if the user deleted it themselves.
I'd not.
It's also not a great question, and only borderline on-topic, at best.
There's a few things going on with undeleting posts.
A user deleting their own good post is basically removing quality content from the site, and that's not cool.
In those cases, undeleting is usually indicated unless there's something else weird going on.
But if the quality of the deleted content is questionable, it ruffles fewer feathers to let the user self-curate.
Could we ever get a Lit.SE Documentaion?
This is a bit borderline, because it's not clear whether the question is on-topic or not. But given that they seemingly deleted it because they didn't like a single user's comments, and it sounds like they might be quitting the site, I'd much rather undelete it and give them some more positivity so they stick around.
12:54 AM
Valorum's comment likely annoyed the user. So they deleted their post. Now it's undeleted, which is likely not going to do more than aggravate them even more, which has a better chance of making them leave the site than simply letting them do what they want. Furthermore, the comments are still there.
@Randal'Thor I agree on both counts.
I have a personal guideline of not bending or breaking rules in the name of retaining users, because users who only stay if the rules are customised for them? Not users we really want or need. But within that frame it's important to be as flexible and kind as reasonable.
1:11 AM
Could we ever get a wiki-type thing for lit.se?
1:30 AM
I have been trying to catch up here, and would like to express several things 1) I was not bothered by Valorums comments--I enjoy interacting with V. 2) What pissed me off was the close votes, as stated in my comment. I just went through this kind of political crap on EL&U this week, and it took a while for people to catch up with what I was saying
...and . 3) I do not want anyone bending the rules for me--if something is off-topic, so be it. But if we are still in the process of developing scope, should we not rush to limit it?
I meant...why are we in a rush to limit it
I can't remember who it was, but someone said in here that close votes don't really mean much in private beta.
Anyone can vote to close, even 1-rep users. What matters more is meta consensus on scope.
@Randal'Thor I was one of the people to close-vote and I think that type of question should be pseudo-on-topic depending on framing, but I thought we should discuss it on meta first.
@Randal'Thor Could you pin this in the side-bar?
I haven't participated in the question at all, and was previously mostly just talking abstract theory.
@Benjamin Meh, is it important enough to be pinned? The star-board is already nearly full of pins.
@Randal'Thor I am all for making this a quality site. I would like to stay. But please do not bend any rules for me.
1:35 AM
@Randal'Thor I think that is very important.
For the question itself, I feel like it's begging the question that Mark Twain can only speak authoritatively on things which he's personally experienced.
@Cascabel I never proposed bending any rules. Personally I haven't voted on your question yet, because I'm not sure what to think of it.
There was some discussion in here (chat) about questions specifically relating to an author without reference to any of their works, a la "did Tolkien have a driving licence?", but I don't think anyone took it to meta.
@BESW The question is focussed on "unrliable narrator", which used to be atag, but someone took it off.
@Cascabel I think it may still be.
@Cascabel It's asking about Twain's personal experience related to a quote that doesn't have him claiming personal experience.
So I'm confused.
1:39 AM
@BESW Sorry. That quote was not critical. I was trying to relate Twains statement about liars and his own tall tales.
You're drawing a connection between the quote, his experience, and unreliable narration, which I'm not following--especially since as much as Twain tends to write in first person, he's usually writing as a character rather than as his own true self.
@BESW @Emrakul @Randal'Thor @Riker @NapoleonWilson @HDE226868 How would you all feel about setting up an informal wiki for collecting information that doesn't fit the Q&A style, a la StackOverflow Documentation?
maybe, bit busy rn will talk in a minute
@Benjamin Why do you ask us specifically?
@Benjamin You mean something like a site blog?
(I don't use Stack Overflow, let alone Documentation.)
1:40 AM
@NapoleonWilson You seem active.
@Benjamin Let's get one website on its feet before we talk about starting another.
@Benjamin Not active enough.
@BESW Twain considerd himself ajournalist first, not a humourist.
@NapoleonWilson Way to go! You gave the impression of being active ;)
I'd be happy to help with that, @Benjamin.
1:41 AM
@Benjamin Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa
Docs has not been shown to work off SO.
At least, as much as I can!
@Randal'Thor Not really, more like collected and combined questions, answers, and information about specific works, including links to where to access works.
But what would this Documentation thing even be for? (Besides that, be aware that you likely won't get any supprot from SE for this, it would have to be an entirely external site, which at this point in time is way too early to consider.)
A few active SE sites, like SFF and Worldbuilding, have blogs where their users can collect information or opinions which don't fit the site's Q&A format. But it might be a little too early days yet to start thinking about that for Literature?
@BESW Oh, I agree, but I think this could help build this website not take away from it.
1:42 AM
@steelersquirrel I know. :'(
@HDE226868 Oh, I totally agree, but I think this could work better.
@Cascabel ...and? The question as written is leaving a lot of dots unconnected, so people are voting on what they're reading between the lines.
well, I came in here to ask Rand a question...maybe I will ask later ;)
It's probably a good question, but it needs to be edited for clarity and focus.
@BESW OK. I will revise it to connect the dots.
1:43 AM
@Benjamin Maybe wait until we have a site, first?
@NapoleonWilson Yes, I mean eventually, but I think it could help attract more people.
Literature is not guaranteed to get out of private beta.
@NapoleonWilson s/likely/definitely. They ain't going to branch out Documentation to new betas any time soon, and they're even abolishing support for site-integrated blogs.
@HDE226868 I know.
@steelersquirrel But I want to hear that question now!
1:43 AM
@HDE226868 isn't it? do you mean public beta?
@steelersquirrel I'm here.
or can they shut it down in private
Thanks, guys.
@Riker Yes, private beta can be shut down.
1:43 AM
It has happened in the past quite a few times.
@Randal'Thor Yes, which means it would probably have to be third-party.
@Riker They can. Most recently, look at the failed Deep Web private beta.
Open Science, for one.
I'd say it's very unlikely to happen here though, given our activity level.
@Randal'Thor what happened?
1:44 AM
@Cascabel Thanks for persevering.
(But what do I know, never having been in a private beta before.)
@Randal'Thor That even got into private beta?
@Randal'Thor I was just responding to your ping from a few days ago...something about Hemingway and war?
@Riker I'm not sure, but something along the lines of "not enough questions, and most of them were what is the deep web?".
Well, we can put that idea away for a while and then come back to it.
1:45 AM
@Randal'Thor ah ok
Sorry, for russelling up chat, when people had more important questions.
@steelersquirrel Oh yes ...
2 days ago, by Rand al'Thor
I have to point this out. The Help Centre page on referencing, which is identical across all SE sites, looks as if it was tailor-made for Literature.
We need a volunteer to post a question about Hemingway for which an answer could include that quote :-P
which one?
1:48 AM
@Randal'Thor Oh, Hehehehe! runs
@Riker The one in the link in the message I just quoted.
ah ok
1 hour later…
3:00 AM
Argh! Rand must have went to bed :(
@Emrakul Are you going to throw your hat into the ring for pro-tem mod for this site?
3:23 AM
He did its 3am for him
Right. I just assume that everyone is in the same time zone as I am ;)
@steelersquirrel Honestly? I'm... not sure yet. Maybe if I'm nominated? My reluctance is largely that I resolutely hold an opinion about the site that... only a small handful of people agree with, so far.
I don't want to push the site somewhere it doesn't want to go, and it's much easier to be interpreted as "THIS is where we're going!" instead of "I think this is where we should go; do you?" if you've got a diamond by your name.
@Emrakul Well, that shouldn't matter too much, should it? Wouldn't the community have to decide on stuff like that? I know that Ankit and Napoleon over at M&TV don't agree with ID questions being on topic, but the community decided that they want to keep them, so they still moderate the site even though their personal opinions don't mesh with some of the site stuff like that. You seem passionate enough about the site to be a good choice at least.
Thanks, it means a lot :] And, yeah, you're right; it ultimately all comes back to the community, no matter which way it's cut. So we'll have to see. I might; (I'm hoping) the decision is a bit of a ways off.
3:38 AM
Ultimately, it boils down to moderators who want to see the site succeed and work with the community to ensure the growth and success of the site. You guys seem to be passionate about the site, which is good! I always like to see moderators work with the community rather than rule with an iron fist just because they are a moderator :)
woah the squirrel made big message
@Emrakul I agree with you, that's one of the reasons I may not want to be mod
just because of possible conflicts
I think you should still accept nomination/nominate yourself though
or maybe not nominate yourself, but definitely accept
You know who rules with an Iron Fist? Luke Cage.
...wait, pro-tem moderators get nominated by other people?
you can nominate yoruself or people nominate you
and if the latter you can accept the nomination
So it's not like regular moderatorship in that regard.
Thanks :] And yeah, that makes sense. Trickier when you really want to take a side, too. But I'll definitely consider it. I'm open to the idea, at least. (But for now, I'm gonna nap!)
3:41 AM
but it's entirely up to the admins who becomes pro-tem
@BESW yeah
Hehehe! All of the mods that I know well are really cool!
@Emrakul yeah, I've been refraining on speaking my mind on tags because I have very distinct ideas about what should happen
specifically regarding less tags
@Emrakul good night :)
Yes, I've been keeping @Emrakul up late with tales of multicultural intersemiotics.
3:43 AM
@Riker I'd suggest posting something, honestly! People might not agree, but it's better to talk about now when we've got a lot more ability to change stuff around.
hm, okay
I'll do it tomrrow
night now though
@Emrakul well g'night to you also
'night, @Riker, @steelersquirrel! (I'll be back shortly!)
6:36 AM
Q: Did Charles Dickens change the endings of any of his books other than Great Expectations?

muruI know that Charles Dickens changed the ending to Great Expectations after prompting. Did he do so with any of his other books? Of course, he may have changed the endings of all his books a hundred times before publishing. However, I'm looking for alternate endings that have also been published.

2 hours later…
8:56 AM
How does it always happen that nobody is talking when I drop in?
Don't look at me, I'm reading Shoghi Effendi and listening to MILCK.
Ah! Someone is alive!
If you're not, then you've got a problem...
9:19 AM
I like to think of it as differently animated.
Writing a question now...
9:36 AM
Q: Are there any books in the classic Hardy Boys series where the boys don't get kidnapped?

MithrandirAs far as I can see, in every single book of the classic Hardy Boys series the brothers get kidnapped in chapter 19. From a cursory glance, I can tell that this applies to The Hooded Hawk Mystery, The Mystery of the Chinese Junk, The Yellow Feather Mystery, The Firebird Rocket, The House on the C...

10:14 AM
@Mithrandir Is "classic" the official or widely-accepted fan term used to refer to the original hardcovers?
Think so
Do you include the crossovers published during that period?
Crossovers? Like with Nancy Drew?
Wait, no, I thought there were some Tom Swift crossovers in that time frame but I'm not finding them now.
So you're basically just looking at the first 58 + the Detective Handbook?
1 hour later…
11:27 AM
Q: Is Alice in Wonderland about drugs?

James JenkinsI recently read Alice in Wonderland, and was struck by the use of organic substances (mushrooms, drinks) to alter reality. There seems to a strong pro drug message in the story line. A news article Is Alice in Wonderland really about drugs? bbc.com, 20 August 2012 asks the same question, but be...

12:13 PM
Q: Who is the speaker in "O Captain! My Captain!"

BenjaminIn O Captain! My Captain! by Walt Whitman, the speaker acts as if he has a close connection to Abraham Lincoln saying, My father does not feel my arm This suggests that they are in such a relationship that Abraham Lincoln would have felt his arm and was a fatherly figure to the speaker. ...

1:03 PM
in Mos Eisley, 2 mins ago, by Gallifreyan
We need one of those in The Reading Room
in Mos Eisley, 3 mins ago, by Gideon
@Skooba Shows the specified xkcd comic. Syntax: %%xkcd <id|title|'latest'>
1:18 PM
Q: Help Identifying Childrens Book with Eater Bunnies

RincewindI know this is a hard as but when I was a kid I had a book about a town that asked some Easter Bunnies to paint the town for Easter or the Easter Bunnies just painted the town or one Easter Bunny painted a bridge or there was one Bunny that painted the town or.... there was painting and bunnies a...

2 hours later…
3:09 PM
(Echo . . . . . . . . echo)
Q: Are any other Sherlock Holmes antagonists based on real people?

HDE 226868I've heard that Arthur Conan Doyle's depiction of Professor Moriarty was inspired by several real-life figures, including Adam Worth. Given Doyle's wide-ranging set of villains and antagonists in the Sherlock Holmes canon, I'd assume that this is not the only case. Did Doyle base any other antag...

Q: Why do people want to close the question regarding Jack's Crown

Matrim CauthonI ask this question because I am surprised that this question is up for closing. It is not a very good question, but I thought we had addressed this in this Meta post. Is there a specific reason it is being up for closing besides being a stupid question?

3:27 PM
@Bookworm The purple dotted snake sitting on my desk told me "yes" when I asked.
@Mithrandir It's an awed silence.
@Randal'Thor Could you change the main site feed to shift back to using the ticker? It is a bit too frequent for messages.
I can do it, but would rather @Randal'Thor do it since he is the man.
3:49 PM
@doppelgreener NOOOOOOOOOOOO
also, can somebody >750 rep review tag wiki edits?
4:18 PM
ok i can get if you might have an aversion to a ticker box in the top left
but there was a point where the rpg.se chat room switched various feeds from chat messages to a ticker, and it was when the feed bot was spamming the main chat far more than anyone was using it for messages, which broke up the ability to maintain some consistency in conversation
yes but ticker
if i scroll up that's what's going on
Jan 19 at 16:51, by Mithrandir
Jan 19 at 23:41, by Shog9
can we all just agree to pretend that the ticker doesn't exist and never discuss it again?
Jan 18 at 22:23, by Rand al'Thor
@BESW Oh, please not the ticker :-(
[super big shrug @ ticker]
Jan 18 at 22:25, by Gilles
@Randal'Thor ^^^^ Before someone wrote that for me, I spent months (years?) avoiding the Unix & Linux chat because of that *@#(&*(#@& ticker
4:20 PM
then let's not have a mainsite feed in chat at all?
ok that's all I'll post sorry rand if that pinged you
@doppelgreener we can disable it for the time being I guess
we probably should have one eventually, but it can wait until public beta
i am fine with meta posts being posted to chat because they're not as frequent and they're of immediate high importance to everyone (to at least see)
I think we should have a main one, but I understand that's maybe not right now
I'd be in favor of removing the main feed for now
4:30 PM
if we have one later it's going to be posting an awful lot
i believe the majority voted to have the feed
What's a ticker?
@Gallifreyan it's where feed items appear in a little box in the top left that only shows up when there's anything to show in there
i had no idea people felt such strong dislike of it
@doppelgreener never seen it
4:35 PM
@Gallifreyan in RPG General Chat we use it for the various blogs our chat is hooked up to
its been blacklisted in most chats
sff chats has main feed, meta, movies(were content is relevent, harry potter, marvel, starwars) and well probably add lit too
Yeah, SFF isn't overloaded for some reason
But I'd definitely vote for an xkcd shortcut here
Good afternoon. Came here from SF&F, still trying to find my legs.
They started a fake science discussion, I'm out of there
@Randal'Thor Good to know that I shouldn't worry about Close votes. There seems to be someone going after all of the ID questions, arguing that they're "not in the scope of Literature as stated in the Help Center", which currently refers to unicorns. :P
4:46 PM
@FuzzyBoots Oh dear. Did you check where you last left them?
I think the unicorn wandered off a long time ago...
Oh, legs. :D Still searching.
@FuzzyBoots that's fabulous
Grrl Power is a fun comic.
5:06 PM
somebody go review stuff please
we have 7 to do
1 close vote and 6 tag wiki edits
5:19 PM
@Randal'Thor @Mithrandir @HDE226868 review stuff please?
were it that i could
(i am itching to do things i don't have the privileges to do yet :'D)
but seriously somebody needs to these have been here for an hour or so
Q: What's the "Tower of Darkness" in the Rubaiyat referring to?

RikerStanza 26: (from the English version by FitzGerald) A Muezzin from the Tower of Darkness cries "Fools! Your reward is neither Here nor There!" What's the "Tower of Darkness" referred to? I'm assuming the tower part is a minaret, but beyond that I have no clue.

5:33 PM
@Hamlet are you ever going to accept this?
2 hours later…
7:04 PM
@Gallifreyan gl with the question, I've been searching for a couple days but no luck
everything I find is about the stephen king series Dark Towers or something
and some 9/11 conspiracy theories
@Riker 0.o lucky me, I only stumbled upon King
ye they were creepy af
@Gallifreyan iirc it was due to searches of "tower of darkness islam metaphor" or something
7:38 PM
@Randal'Thor I have a Sherlock Holmes question that might interest you.
It's been a while since I read some of the later stories, so I've likely overlooked some possible candidates.
8:13 PM
@Riker Finished. A bit more research, and I could get a Ph.D for this. <sarcasm>
8:27 PM
46 rep till I can review more stuff
And DVK still hasn't answered my skeleton question :(
9:31 PM
@Riker Done.
My copy of The Shadow of The Wind, just came in! Yay!
10:34 PM
@Benjamin - That seems shady to me ...

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