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04:00
oh
oh god, always bsd
My coding style changes drastically from language to language.
@PinCrash this syntax is weirder than perl O_o
Except that the whitespace got screwed up.
always K&R
aka BSD?
04:00
Here's a better one: strawpoll.me/7168680
@Downgoat dude, Lisp has possibly the best syntax of all programming languages ever [citation needed]
@MyHamDJ FTFY
/hides
@PinCrash Factor & other FORTHy languages are pretty dope
@Downgoat I GNU something was wrong with those braces
04:01
@MyHamDJ pls add "hell no" option
Concatenative languages in general really
are dope
@MyHamDJ Would probably depend on the section of code in particular
Factor isn't really good for golfing
unfortunately
@AlexA. First I was like "How the crap did you do that?" And then I was like "Oh duh, you're a mod."
04:02
you have to import most vocabs
@MyHamDJ do what?
including the 'kernel' vocab
and it has mandatory whitespace
@Downgoat Edit my chat.
oh
mods can do that?!
04:02
So apparently I am in the minority liking brackets on a new line.
Does SE not see how that could go very wrong...
@xnor Out of curiosity, what did you have for -1+i?
there are allegedly studies that say new line form is more readable
I think SE trusts mods to not do anything stupid.
04:03
but I still don't like it
@Downgoat SE picks its mods well...
@LockOpeners [citation-needed]
@MyHamDJ But not alone. I always put them on a new line in C.
@El'endiaStarman I trust all the mods here but still...
04:04
brackets forever
except in Factor
because it's stack based and you don't really need brackets :)
@MyHamDJ I use whatever's standard for the language I'm working with. For example, in C# I guess the standard is for them to go on their own line.
@AlexA. ☑ I don't really care, I'll just adapt
@AlexA. As someone that primarily uses C++ and python, how can I answer? lol
@Downgoat There's a revision history, so...
@Sp3000 the same as feersum except i was trying to solve the math for the sum zero case
04:05
@Downgoat Plus, there's that thing how other mods and SE employees can serve as a check against any potential rogue mods...
@Sp3000 Good answer :)
@Sp3000 i didn't think to test if it just might be (3,7) though
If I am working on someone elses project or whatever
and they use new line style
@AlexA. I wish I could check braces and significant whitespace.
then yes of course I will
04:06
@xnor Ah, I see. I'd still be interested in a proof, but it seems to work for small inputs at least
@El'endiaStarman So you need {, some amount of indentation, and }, or else it won't run?
Haha, no, just that I like both ways.
Oh haha
Braces are more flexible, significant whitespace is cleaner.
I was like "what kind of language would do that??"
@El'endiaStarman Which is why I like the do/end :)
04:07
Also, I am changing my side on tabs v spaces, tabs are better
@Downgoat \o/
What made you decide that?
Why the change of heart though?
....[sigh] ninja'd.
@AlexA. But that's not much different than braces...
Nope
04:08
I predict that this won't be controversial at all or start any flamewars: strawpoll.me/7168744
Gives the impression of cleanliness though :P
Though you do have a point. It's nice to have stuff like While ... Wend, If ... Endif, etc.
1. Makefiles force you to use tabs so my vim is using tabs anyway 2. So when someone indents their entire project with 8 spaces, it doesn't look like shit for me...
@MyHamDJ Granted, Mac isn't an OS, nor is Linux. Linux is a kernel and Mac is a line of computers. OS X is the OS.
@MyHamDJ Neither Linux nor Mac is an OS.
04:08
@El'endiaStarman That makes me think of VB. I dislike VB.
ninja'd
Ninja'd
@AlexA. To put it this way: when you're in a company with a large number of employees and someone chucks a style guide your way, everybody's got to comprise so that at least when you're reading new code, there's nothing to complain about style-wise since everything looks the same :P
Also Tab < Spaces in terms of bytes
@MyHamDJ Those came from Blitz 2D/3D, which was indeed inspired by BASIC.
04:09
@Dennis @AlexA. True, but you both new exactly what I meant.
@MyHamDJ Dual boot. I need both Windows and Linux.
@Sp3000 Yep. As strong as my personal stylistic opinions are, I think consistency is more important.
Would you prefer OS X and GNU/Linux?
OS X
@Sp3000 s/Windows/OS X/
OS X will never be an option for me.
04:10
Ditto
I have just a Windows and OS X dual-boot because Linux can be easily run in a VM
Probably a different reason though
What's your reason?
@El'endiaStarman I had to rewrite old VB that was written by some professors, and it was the worst code I have ever seen. So now I have an irrational hatred of VB.
@Downgoat As can Windows; I have a Windows 7 VM on my Mac
04:11
@MyHamDJ It was probably bad code because it was written by professors. :P
There are some different people in here than the last time this was posted, so strawpoll.me/7168769
@El'endiaStarman Exactly. =D
@AlexA. I had a Windows 7 Parallels but it was slow as hell...
They actually wrote this:
array = line.split()
array = split(line)
@MyHamDJ you have to add 4 spaces/line for it to monospace
04:12
@AlexA. I just can't think of anything Mac provides that the other two don't, apart from iOS development (which I'm not planning to do)
@Downgoat tyvm
I will master chat markdown one of these days.
@Sp3000 OS X runs really well, it's a very nice, clean OS that won't make you tear your hair out (lookin' at you, Windows), Mac hardware is super reliable, ... Idk. I just like it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Oh, should probably mention the other half is I don't have Mac hardware
04:15
@AlexA. I would post a carrot pointing to this message but carets condemned in here so I'll just post this message
I can't speak to what running OS X on non-Apple hardware is like (AKA a "Hackintosh")
@Downgoat I've seen several carets in here earlier
oh, okay, then ^^^^^
Not that I'm advocating for them :|
Man, I would love a hackintosh, but I don't think I'm persistent enough to ever go through with it.
You could just a Macintosh
@Sp3000 I don't even know how to get OS X without having to buy an Apple computer
I'm told it's possible though
04:18
Illegaly.
Not necessarily. There are legal ways.
The EULA still forbids you from using it.
does anyone know if a zener starts to smoke, if it is still usable?
pulls up Google -> define:zener
A Zener diode allows current to flow from its anode to its cathode like a normal semiconductor diode, but it also permits current to flow in the reverse direction when its "Zener voltage" is reached. Zener diodes have a highly doped, p-n junction. Normal diodes will also break down with a reverse voltage but the voltage and sharpness of the knee are not as well defined as for a Zener diode. Also normal diodes are not designed to operate in the breakdown region, but Zener diodes can reliably operate in this region. The device was named after Clarance Melvin Zener, who discovered the Zener effect...
04:20
So what should I do if I have two separate posts in the sandbox with zero votes and comments?
edit them and they'll be bumped to the top
What you're doing right now
You might want to add "builtins related to countries" in addition to flags, just in case
Although I'm not so sure about "freely available interpreter/compiler for windows 10" - are there any languages which aren't cross-platform?
@Sp3000 s/just in case/just in case someone who knows mathematica sees the post/
@Sp3000 Yes, Blitz 2D/3D is Windows-only.
@Sp3000 Windows Batch is Windows only
04:22
I did have Mathematica in mind, but I wasn't sure whether it'd help :P
Which is understandable. It's hard to have cross-platform 3D graphics.
Mathematica runs on Mac
Hmm how about not cross-platform and not available on Windows? :P
@Sp3000 I don't know if there are any that people want to use.
@Sp3000 AppleScript
04:22
@AlexA. Mac hardware is pretty much the same stuff, for twice the money.
... that's probably a good example (don't really know it though)
I just want to be able to test all of the submissions.
Ah k, fair enough
I suppose I could add Linux as another option, since I do have a dual boot.
@Dennis I guess the hardware cost includes all the free software that comes with it
04:24
It would just be easier since I've already got it ready and running on windows.
@Downgoat Which you're forced to pay for, even if you never use it. This whole mindset is why I'll never own an Apple product.
Hmm I get the feeling Dennis is going to come along and win the flags challenge with 100% in some golfing lang :P
I can't imagine why you'd think that
That seems entirely implausible
And by that I mean that I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that you're correct :P
But would you be willing to bet a lot of rep?
Well...
04:30
SE rep > money.
In the event that I'm not elected moderator, I want to still be close to the 20k "trusted user" privilege threshold.
It'll go from 4k to 20k once we get our site design
Gosh dangit
@AlexA. we have plenty of time before that happens, I think they are like 8 more sites that need designes
Oh yeah, I'm not saying it'll be right away (or even soon)
@MyHamDJ Regarding the music one, looks okay although I'm a bit curious about the augmented octave. Almost seems to me that minor ninth should be acceptable, but tbh given the word compression I'd expect most answers to only use augmented/diminished :P
04:32
@flawr Just play the video at a slower speed to see the real thing. Stretch the 20s out to 120 minutes and that's real time
@PinCrash How long did CR wait for a design?
@AlexA. I think about a year
can I get some feedback on this post, pleeeasse?
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

DowngoatSolve an Linear Equation This challenge with a better spec Spec Your program will take a linear equation containing a single variable x and output the value of x. Input / Parsing The input will only contain numbers, operators, parenthesis (()), x, and an = sign (this means no whitespace) Pa...

@Sp3000 Oooh, I hadn't thought of that.
@AlexA. Depends when you start counting, but grad was announced September 2014 and we got design November 2015
I'll prolly remove augmented octave rather than adding minor ninth.
Keep it all within 12 half-steps.
04:34
Seems like the neater thing to do, yeah
@PinCrash Wow
@MyHamDJ Are you willing to trade?
Most sites don't seem to take quite that long though, CR was kind of an odd case (not saying that PPCG isn't)
@Dennis huh?
Trade what?
@PinCrash Given that we were in beta for 5 years I'd say we're at least some kind of an odd case. :P
04:36
@MyHamDJ My SE rep for your money.
On one hand, I said that as a joke. But on the other hand, 130k is pretty tempting.
@Dennis I will trade money for golfing skill
What's the exchange rate?
The Stack Exchange rate, you mean? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
@MyHamDJ What's the stack exchange rate? hahaha...
ninja'd to the bad joke...
04:39
@Downgoat You should probably have a non-integer example
ಠ_ಠ
@Downgoat I'd like to see what would happen if someone outsourced their code to Dennis and then showed it to their boss
@HelkaHomba that's a unique way of quitting...
@Downgoat Yeah. "Hey boss, look at this awesome piece of code!" ".....what is this stuff? It's all just symbols!"
0
Q: Music Interval Solver

My Ham DJ In music theory, an interval is the difference between two pitches. Each pitch is defined by the number of half-steps (The difference between C and C#) or whole steps (The difference between C and D). One whole step is the same as two half-steps. Here is a list of all the default intervals and ...

04:47
@El'endiaStarman s/symbols/perl/
Perl at least has ASCII symbols.
"Oh, it's a new programming language called Jelly!" ".....what?"
Posted:
0
Q: Solve an Linear Equation

DowngoatThis challenge but with a better spec. Spec Your program will take a linear equation containing a single variable x and output the value of x. Input / Parsing The input will only contain numbers, operators, parenthesis (()), x, and an = sign (this means no whitespace) Parenthesis will always...

"Hey boss, look at this awesome piece of code!" "... where's the code? You just handed me a blank sheet of paper!" -> 1) "It's in Whitespace!" 2) "It's my new language 'does whatever the boss wants in 0 bytes'!"
@Sp3000 who prints their code?
Whitespace isn't 0 chars. It's actually very verbose. It just doesn't look verbose.
04:52
@MyHamDJ SE strips out whitespace so if you don't markdown it correctly it is 0 bytes
@El'endiaStarman I'd imagine APL would have the same effect.
can anyone think of something that rhymes with "mama" besides "domesticated llama"?
4
Q: Output Tildes and Pluses

Hosch250Inspired by this question, I wrote a program in Whitespace to output the following text: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~+~~+~~+~~+~~+~~+~~+~~+~~+~~+~~+~~+~~+~~+~~+~~+~ +~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I ...

@Dennis True, just remarking on people plagiarizing your code. :P
@Downgoat Clearly, domesticated llama is your only good option.
04:54
@MyHamDJ it's the only thing I can think of
I do have a few APL answers, but yes, plenty more Jelly.
And one M, as of today.
@Downgoat Closet drama
How about Drama-rama-mama-llama?
why am I being dragged into the conversation?
04:56
@Optimizer unless you are a domesticated llama, then you are not being dragged into any conversation.
@Downgoat Or use comments in Whitespace like S, T and L
@Sherlock9 that works too, but it is less esoteric
oh, did you think that I am a wild llama?
@Optimizer I am making no assumptions :|
well, can't help it. goats are judging by nature.
04:57
0
Q: Solve an Linear Equation

DowngoatThis challenge but with a better spec. Spec Your program will take a linear equation containing a single variable x and output the value of x. Input / Parsing The input will only contain numbers, operators, parenthesis (()), x, and an = sign (this means no whitespace) Parenthesis will always...

@Optimizer Your profile description is wrong. It (incorrectly) says PPCG is a beta site.
@Optimizer ಠ_ಠ
@MyHamDJ thanks for pointing out
that's enough internet for today...
where do you find such images? on weird porn sites?
@Downgoat I found an emojii that you'll like.
┌─┐
┴─┴
ಠ_ರೃ
@MyHamDJ is it the goat one?
@MyHamDJ huh, I haven't seen that one before...
brb, adding...
┌─┐
┴─┴
ಠ_ರೃ
\o/ it worked
@Downgoat
      _
     /(|
    (  :
   __\  \  _____
 (____)  `|
(____)|   |
 (____).__|
  (___)__.|_____
wat.
ohhh
           .__    _
           @ V; .Z~M
          || :|:@  d
          d' d\@  jf
   .*\   :P  #P  |P
   M `|  W  .@   Z
   | .b :!  d'  W'
   |  V W   #  .W**=m_
    |  !||   @  W'_   ~V;
    ||  M| _ Nm4| YmjL|PN_
     #   W#~    YN_W'YL#W#b
     |;  +       |f   `#'#8L
     W        ._#L_  .#,`'||
     |,     .WMP' ~Mm#`Nm;d|
     `|       W   Mmd#; .df
      |       M    `M#@-W'
      W       !b     WtZ'
      M        V;    |P
      ||        b   .@
       D        Y| .W'
      j|         'j@'
05:15
Is that a chicken?
No it's ^^
oh
it's (backwards) illuminati of course
Which apparently is obscene in korea.
korea or south korea or north korea?
And something akin to rick-rolling in ASL. :P
05:16
I have no idea.
05:31
@Dennis I'm trying to learn jelly, but I can't grasp my head around the very basics. Let's take a really simple program. If arg1 is even, it cuts it in half and prints that. If it's odd, it prints it. How would you write that?
I can't find any type of conditional.
Do you know APL and/or J? If not, go learn those first.
Those languages, including Jelly, are written in a very different way than most languages.
Okay. Do you know of any good online J interpreters?
Er, nope, I don't.
Just repeating previously-given advice on the subject. :P
There is one for J, but I can never remember where it is
can anyone think of a derogatory word that rhymes with strawberry?
05:35
@MyHamDJ ¹HḂ?
Derogatory almost rhymes with starwberry.
airy-fairy
Anonymous
Can I get some math help for a challenge? I'm having trouble coming up with an example for something I believe is true. Is it ever possible that the values in a matrix cannot be rearranged such that all of the rows and columns are sorted in ascending order (left-to-right for rows, top-to-bottom for columns)?
@Dennis I was trying to get ,HịḂ , but as usual I'm probably just missing something :P
Anonymous
@Downgoat contrary?
05:37
@Mego as long as you don't mean strictly ascending then I believe so.
@Mego that's not really derogatory though...
morning
@Sp3000 works backward, but ,Hị@ would do.
@zyabin101 monking
05:37
Oh right, mod index
@Mego Rearranged how?
Anonymous
@Liam Not strictly ascending, just that for every value a, a <= b if b comes after a
@Dennis I don't see a definition for ? anywhere on the atom page.
Yeah then I think any matrix can be sorted that way, unless I'm misunderstanding.
Anonymous
@El'endiaStarman Any rearrangement
05:38
@MyHamDJ It's not an atom; it's a quick. Documentation on quicks is sparse so far.
Anonymous
So long as the matrix contains the same values after the rearrangement, it's valid
Oh. Well that would explain why I couldn't figure anything out.
The wiki explains a few of them.
Anonymous
So [[1, 2], [3, 4]] -> [[1, 3], [2, 4] is fine, but [[1, 2], [3, 4]] -> [[1, 2], [3, 5]] is not
@Mego Like, 100% free to move any and every value around? Oh, yeah, I'd think that shouldn't be hard to prove.
05:39
@Mego Pretty sure any matrix can be sorted this way, just place the values along the antidiagonals start from the top left corner?
@Sp3000 I thought of that too.
Anonymous
@Liam Would that guarantee that every row and every column will be properly sorted? It seems like there should be a counterexample
this wiki? I'm not seeing it.
No, not ?, unfortunately.
@Mego nope that was dumb of me... let me think.
05:41
0 1 3
4 0 2
6 1 5

[0 0 1 1 2 3 4 5 6] -> [[0] [0 1] [1 2 3] [4 5] [6]]

0 1 3
0 2 5
1 4 6
@El'endiaStarman hifive
Do you have a link to any docs on quicks?
Oh, wait I found it.
Anonymous
@Sp3000 Ooh, thanks for that. Yeah ok, any matrix can be sorted like this.
I believe the relevant term is standard Young tableaux
05:44
Let me see if I can dig up the relevant Numberphile video
I know which one you're talking about. :P
@MyHamDJ I'll try to write a quick overview tomorrow.
@MyHamDJ In case you didn't know, Jelly has its own chat room. If you have any question, even if I'm not there, someone else might be able to help.
@El'endiaStarman Yay Numberphile :D
05:48
Young tableaux's a tad bit different though, usually the entries are distinct?
I haven't watched nearly enough numberphile lately
Anonymous
06:14
Gah... I'm having issues coming up with an implementation of that sorting method for rectangular matrices in Python
Anonymous
My brain doesn't seem to be working all that well
Efficient implementation or just any implementation?
Anonymous
Any implementation
@Sp3000 Yep, but if you can sort distinct entries, you can sort non-distinct entries. Valid mapping is just sorting the whole list of entries by indices, 1 to n
Would going by diagonals work, Mego?
Anonymous
Maybe, if I could produce functioning code at 1 AM :P
06:18
def f(M):
    L = sorted(sum(M,[]))
    O = []

    I = sorted([(i,j) for i in range(len(M)) for j in range(len(M[0]))],
               key=lambda x:x[0]+x[1])

    for a,b in zip(I,L):
        M[a[0]][a[1]] = b

    return M
Anonymous
Generating the diagonals for a square matrix is easy enough, but my brain doesn't want to make the generalization to rectangular matrices
Mega hacky, but something like that probably
Anonymous
@Sp3000 That appears to work, thanks!
Anonymous
Now here's the next question that I think I know the answer to, but I'm not sure how to prove it: does every matrix have a unique sorted representation?
Anonymous
We've verified existence, but uniqueness is important to know, too
06:22
No, because the transpose should also work
Anonymous
Ah, that's really simple
Anonymous
I thought the answer would be no, but I didn't think to consider the transpose
It's actually even more than that - if I'm right you can shuffle any elements along any of the antidiagonals
Anonymous
That also appears to be true
Anonymous
There, dropped my fire mixtape neat challenge on main
06:29
Almost surprised that's not already a challenge
Anonymous
I was surprised also
Anonymous
Forgot to change the title after I heavily modified the challenge :P
Oh I know why, I'm thinking of this challenge
But actually constructing the grid isn't necessary to solve that challenge
1
Q: Sorting rectangular matrices

MegoGiven a matrix A, we can say that it is "sorted" if each row and column of A is sorted (ascending left-to-right for rows and top-to-bottom for columns). Thus, this matrix is sorted: [ 1 2 3 4 5 ] [ 2 2 3 4 5 ] [ 3 3 3 4 5 ] [ 4 4 4 4 5 ] [ 5 5 5 5 5 ] However, this matrix is not sorted: [ 1 2...

Might try it out tomorrow
@Mego
06:42
@Mego btw by dimensions being optional input, is that both width/height, just one or is either okay?
@Mego sorted?
Anonymous
@Sp3000 Either
Anonymous
@MarsUltor Scroll up
Why is chat.stackexchange.com/search?q=egg&user=&room=26380 returning things from other rooms??
@HelkaHomba Refresh
Wait
06:44
I have
When I refresh it, it keeps changing
Searching "egg" returns random things; it's a chat easter egg.
It could be an Easter egg (it is almost easter). But I actually want to look up egg!
Not "could be", but "is" :P meta.stackexchange.com/questions/75861/…
> Searching for "easter", "egg", or "easter egg" results in a number of fake messages instead of actually searching for those terms. The results change each time the search is run. This works on all the chat sites
06:46
That being said... I have no idea how to actually search for "egg".
Enclose in quotes
oh, nice find
and its always starred
@Optimizer ?

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