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12:43 AM
@Gilles Where you going to wait till the tag died and then create or just let the tag die altogether?
(trying to decide if I should write it a tag wiki)
@Seth let the tag die: I don't see any question that requires
if I'd wanted to retag to , I could have done it directly
oh good point. I agree with you
1:10 AM
@Undo Oh, I never saw that meta Q. Wonder how I missed it.
It's a good thing you missed it, it means our meta is active :D
It does?
In what way?
Well, it means that one person can't read everything on their own. Which means there is a lot of activity.
Ah. Yes, I noticed we had lots of activity here, which is more than I can say for other beta metas I've seen.
My Q might actually be a dupe of yours..
Sort of
But I'd like to see more clarification of it anyway
1:17 AM
@Undo Were you thinking about writing an answer for my question or not? I'm trying to decide if I should try the program out and write an answer or not...
(I figured it'd be rather easy rep for you)
@Seth Which one?
has already forgotten
I'm not experienced in that
@Undo yeah that one.
And I'd like to only recommend stuff I've actually used.
@Undo alright, just wanted to give you a chance :)
Yup, thanks!
1:22 AM
Q: How are we going to moderate answers?

SethEveryone has already agreed if this site is going to work we need to have really high quality questions and answers (especially the answers). This leads to the question, how are we going to moderate low quality answers? I mean: When should we delete answers? When should we downvote? ...

2 hours later…
3:14 AM
@Seth Imgur-tricks: if the original image file name is 12345.jpg, 12345m.jpg ships a medium-sized, and 12345s.jpg a very small sized variant.
I use that quite often: upload once to imgur, then place the "m" variant and link it to the full-sized.
Q: Should we be closing questions that don't specify an OS?

UndoI've been seeing quite a few questions in the process of being closed as unclear what you're asking, apparently because they don't specify an OS. I've also been voting to close these questions. My question, though: should we be?

^ Opinions?
@Izzy That's AWESOME
@Undo mm?
3:31 AM
@Seth I love it. Since I've discovered that, I use it everywhere. Before, I've always uploaded 2 variants manually #P
One thing I'd wish for, though, is to specify the size. I feel the "s" is much too small, and the "m" a little too big. With portrait images, I'd wish for 200px width...
Hm, maybe playing with the other 20+ letters of the alphabet turns something up? :D
@Seth "Much ado about nothing": He might be looking for "blank opinions" :D
(deleted post) Guess that one crossed the automatic posting from Meta, so he "VTC'd his post as duplicate".
@Izzy I'm guessing that too.
my blank opinion is:
3:49 AM
eh. I almost forgot how much of a PITA taking screenshots in android is :/
Yeah, Stack Exchange beat me to posting my meta question by about half a second. So I deleted mine :P
on the bright side, I got navit working on my old phone, and found out I might be able to revive an old GPS unit with it
@JourneymanGeek WHAT!?!
It's easy..
@Seth: Pressing two keys at once at the right time? ;p
So what do you guys think of actually asking SE for an extended private beta?
3:51 AM
@Undo: cause we need time to hash things out right I hope?
(cause I don't like the alternative - that we need more time for critical mass ;p)
heh, we have the crit mass part :P
@JourneymanGeek Huh.. I don't find it hard. Power + volume down.
yeah, we do seem to
3:52 AM
I have a meta post all planned out in my head.
@Seth: I'm slightly clumsy.
and I have screenshots with the volume down ;p
@JourneymanGeek lol
@Seth Should I write a meta post encouraging the idea of an extended private beta?
@Undo: its a pretty good idea IMO, so if you did, I'd comment saying so, for whatever its worth ;p
3:55 AM
Okay, me will do it.
@Undo hmm.. why would we need extended private beta? We can continue fixing scope in regular beta..
@Seth We can, but it's a lot harder when you have the floodgates open.
imagine the activity we have now tripled.
And I feel like we can barely keep up with the current volume of questions moderation-wise.
night time
3:58 AM
We'll have every other tool-recommendation question on SO with a comment pointing them here :P
@Seth Night.
Anyway, I'll write the post and we'll let the voters figure it out.
Cya folks.
4:12 AM
Q: An odd request: can we have another week in private beta?

UndoIf the CM team so decides, we're scheduled to start private beta in two days (Tuesday). I'm not sure we're ready. On most new beta sites, announcements from the CM team that the site will stay in private beta for another week are met with disappointment. I'd like to stipulate that we really want...

4:42 AM
Q: An odd request: can we have another week in private beta?

UndoIf the CM team so decides, we're scheduled to start public beta in two days (Tuesday). I'm not sure we're ready. On most new beta sites, announcements from the CM team that the site will stay in private beta for another week are met with disappointment. I'd like to stipulate that we really want ...

5 hours later…
9:50 AM
Are Linux flavour recommendations on topic?
1 hour later…
10:53 AM
@Fractaliste: better to ask on meta, no?
and eh, tested and posted two completely different answers to a question. Feels wierd
1 hour later…
12:07 PM
A: OS X graphic design app that supports vector graphics?

Gaurav JosephIf you are willing to splurge, you could try Adobe Illustrator.

who upvoted that crap?
12:35 PM
Blah. I really need a better workflow for my android and linux answers :/
(I tend to 'know' where everything is in windows. I keep getting distracted answering questions for other OSes since I switch to say android, test, screenshot, copy over screenshots, edit and answer ;p)
1 hour later…
1:47 PM
Undo has been automatically appointed as owner of this room. (What does this mean?)
2:08 PM
Don't undo that :D
2:46 PM
I hadn't thought that the website vs. webapp discussion would be so complex.
Huh Wha?
oh, italicizification. Yay!
A: What should our chatroom be named?

UndoThought of this overnight... The Rec Center It's not perfectly matched to our topic, but it sounds kinda good. Maybe it'll give some people inspiration to come up with something better!

3:08 PM
@AngeloNeuschitzer: and you haven't even touched things like chrome extentions that run like a native app ;p
@JourneymanGeek Well Plugins and Extensions are considered on-topic so that should be easy. Or do I miss something?
The distribution of answer lengths on this site:
131, 143, 147, 166, 183, 200, 207, 209, 219, 221, 228, 228, 231, 234,
234, 239, 241, 243, 249, 254, 255, 256, 258, 262, 274, 277, 278, 278,
279, 294, 308, 319, 323, 323, 328, 331, 331, 332, 332, 332, 333, 342,
342, 348, 348, 352, 353, 353, 353, 357, 359, 359, 361, 364, 366, 366,
368, 368, 368, 371, 378, 378, 380, 385, 385, 388, 397, 400, 400, 403,
405, 412, 414, 414, 418, 419, 421, 422, 423, 426, 428, 431, 435, 436,
440, 446, 452, 453, 458, 460, 462, 470, 470, 471, 475, 476, 478, 478,
480, 482, 483, 487, 492, 493, 495, 497, 497, 506, 509, 509, 513, 518,
being long doesn't automatically make an answer good, but some of these are definitely too short
What's a good tool to represent this graphically?
naw. just the idea that the line is VERY blurred in some cases
3:24 PM
@JourneymanGeek Yeah, so we should sharpen it wherever needed. But I think I was as surprised that someone would count imdb to apps as said someone was that I would say its a site.
I suggested google keep as an answer to softwarerecs.stackexchange.com/questions/776/… . Its a web application, though the extention on chrome acts native
@Gilles Oooh, I should make a graph.
@Gilles How'd you get those numbers? API?
@Undo yes
Fun. I shall make a graph sometime today
there we go, posted on meta
3:44 PM
Importing answer lengths into MySQL...
Q: A call to arms: review these answers!

GillesAnswers of this site are of very disparate quality. We have a lot of bad answers; some have already been improved or removed, but others are lingering. We're in the process of determining what to do with poor answers. We need to get an idea of the scope and nature of the problem. This site curr...

4:03 PM
@Gilles ^ Not perfect, but it works.
Grouped by 100's.
I.e. 250 - 349 is in the 300's.
How long does it take a question to go from 'on-hold' to 'closed'?
@Undo thanks
What do you think the cutoff should be in my meta post?
going up to 899 around the end of the plateau would mean too many answers
I'll stick with 400 for now
4:41 PM
900 as a cutoff would essentially put my only answer under the low quality answer :(
@jokerdino short does not always mean bad. I'm looking through the list of @Gilles currently and more than one in the short section are perfectively valid answers. (Mostly because the Q had one very narrow criteria the As are like: -This tool (link) fulfills this criteria. I tried it, it worked.-)
@AngeloNeuschitzer and are these questions good enough?
I looked at a few near the middle and they often seemed to be adequate answers to a mediocre question
@Gilles sometimes. softwarerecs.stackexchange.com/questions/393/… is a good and valid question and the Marvin answer is a good and valid answer, even though its short.
4:57 PM
Wasn't there some cleanup bot taking care to delete posts with X or more negative score? I always forget the exact behavior of those tasks. If so, wouldn't that sort out things already?
@Izzy no. Only unanswered questions. Answers and answered questions are never deleted automatically.
And what would it sort out anyway? A -5 answer clearly shows it's bad. It's the +5 bad answers we really need to avoid.
@Gilles See, I always mess that up #/
So is it only for our rep that there's no "delete" link showing?
@Gilles what do the * mean after the link list in your meta post?
@AngeloNeuschitzer As he wrote: Number of comments
@Izzy Ah, must have missed that. Thanks!
5:07 PM
@Gilles Some answers in your list belong to questions which are "on hold". Should those count as "low prio" then?
Example: #2
@AngeloNeuschitzer NP. Usually it's me to miss such things :D
5:21 PM
@AngeloNeuschitzer number of comments, I included it because it's a hint that maybe someone's made remarks about quality already. Not sure if it's really useful, I'll take it out if it's too distracting.
@Izzy yeah, low priority
I'm afraid the list I downloaded doesn't let me filter out closed questions easily, and anyway close/reopen happens very fast during private beta so I left the information out.
@Gilles Nah, its fine (now that I know what it is).
Guys: thanks for participating! It's with this hard work that we have serious hopes that the site work.
Q: Software for emulating multiple desktops on Windows

acheong87Many years ago I tried using multiple desktops through some factory-installed software (NVidia Desktop Manager, or something like that) on my work computer. It was nice when it worked, but would often crash, lose my windows, and behave oddly with applications whose windows weren't allowed to be r...

Three answers posted within 20s and recommending the same product. The descriptions range from only the product name to a sentence and a half.
6:01 PM
Q: Why question for Best tool is wrong?

MariuszSWhy question with word best are considered wrong and downvoted automatically? Even if certain criteria are clear when something is the best. We are looking for best software but we can ask only for software. From other side asking for good software is ok. Good FTP file editor and uploader that'...

Q: How important is personal experience?

GillesHow important is my personal experience when I recommend a product? In the answers I've posted so far, my experience ranges from “I've never used this application before but I'm familiar enough with the domain to know that it's good for this scenario” to “I've been using this application in dept...

Hey, cool @Undo :P
Now you have to be really inactive so we get another room owner :P (jk)
6:19 PM
Man, I've used up my votes on meta for today, I keep getting this "You can't vote anymore" infobox everytime I open up a meta question :(
@AngeloNeuschitzer Yep, one of the most annoying things about sites like this
Q: Should we add a second answer with the same recommendation if the first answer is VLQ?

Angelo NeuschitzerI have just seen this answer Password manager for Linux with just working in-browser autotype Using the tool myself I'm sure I could write a better answer (more detailed, with screenshot...). So should I edit the one already there or should I add a new answer that says the same and more details?

6:30 PM
@Seth I'm a peaceful person, I don't beat anyone. Thanks for the upvote :D
Nothing unpeaceful in that
I'll be traveling next week, so I probably won't be around as much. Feel free to ping me in chat but don't expect replies.
Take this opportunity to dislodge me from the top left corner
@Gilles how is this list sorted?
@AngeloNeuschitzer I don't know. It's got to do with the number of posts, perhaps with some weight for votes.
@Gilles Okay, I'll take up the challenge :)
6:41 PM
I've posted 15% of the non-deleted answers on meta, and answered 1/3 of the questions
@Gilles The list of "short" answers you have, can this be created by a script / link so you (or one of us) can update it as the works get done? (I've edited some of my own answers that were in the list and some people I commented on did the same)
@AngeloNeuschitzer I used this script to download. Then I opened it in the Python REPL
@Gilles Your call to arms post is really getting rid of answers!
@Seth Definitly not. I was playing with words (and knew about the "other" meaning). Just wanted to say "thanks" in an unconventional way ;)
6:53 PM
@Izzy Oh.. facepalm. I totally missed that.
import json
all = json.load(open("softwarerecs.json"))
by_length = sorted(all, key=lambda m: len(m['body']))
answers = sorted(filter(lambda m: m['post_type']=='answer', all), key=lambda m: len(m['body']))
json.dump(answers, open("softwarerecs-questions.json", "w"))
print '\n'.join([' * softwarerecs.stackexchange.com/a/%d (%d) [%d%s]' % (a['post_id'], len(a['body']), a['score'], '*' * len(a['comments']) if a.has_key('comments') else '') for a in answers])
Here are a few Python commands to get you started (after downloading the site content with my script)
@Seth LOL Yeah, that's one thing with international communities: you never know whether one makes a joke, or simply got it wrong. Apologies: I'm known for that even among natives here #D
no prob :)
7:07 PM
Oh cool. I'm one vote away from a good answer badge :D
@AngeloNeuschitzer Please don't go adding to questions, especially when those questions don't make it a necessary requirement and not while we have no agreement on what the tag means
@Gilles the question I added it had it as necessary requirement in the text.
Why can't we just have and ? Much simpler
@Seth because I want [gratis] and [open-source] :)
is too confusing for new people
7:22 PM
@Seth theres a meta to that question, sec.
googles gratis
@AngeloNeuschitzer Yes I've seen it.
@3ventic Exactly.
Oh, so it's just a fancy way to say free.
@Seth because for some people, means
The point is that [free] (how you make this visual?) is not precise enough.
7:24 PM
You're all assuming those are tags we need in the first place..
@3ventic They are used, they are needed.
@Gilles That's what tag wikis are for... right?
I bet would be used a lot too
@3ventic Point.
@3ventic Tags are for sorting. I can imagine people sorting by free, open-source, etc.
I even do it.
7:25 PM
Guess so
@3ventic But I would want my software to be open source whenever possible, so searching for exactly that is what I would do.
But do we then need to ask the same question for free/open-source and paid?
me contemplates asking for more votes to use on meta
@Seth I would love to have more too!
@3ventic what question?
7:26 PM
None in particular, in general
@3ventic There is free/gratis and opposing: paid; both can be open-source.
I still don't understand the concept of having paid open source
@3ventic me neither.
donate I guess...
@Seth no than its still gratis. donates are optional.
7:28 PM
@AngeloNeuschitzer exactly.
But when I write software for my Gemeinde (hmm... local district... whatever) I put that software under LGPL and still get paid for that.
So there is use in individual paid software beeing open source. But it doesn't work for "standard use" software.
So, the software itself is still "gratis" I just get paid writing it...
600 rep \o/
When do we conclude a question on meta to be answered anyway? The Tags for free / floss etc. question hasn't changed in the last days and if we want to switch from 'free' to 'gratis' (as suggested in my answer and seconded by some) then we should do so soon before the question goes out of beta.
So, now I have clicked on all the answers that were linked in the "too short" list. Lets see if they are better until tomorrow.
7:52 PM
@AngeloNeuschitzer usually, a mod would resolve this. At the moment, community managers are acting mods; they're less inclined to take a decision on a subject that is community-specific like tags
@AngeloNeuschitzer Wow! Thanks.
@Seth Yuck. Not possible. Someone beat me #D
Jeff Atwood on November 15, 2010

As Stack Overflow grows — or any other Q&A site in the Stack Exchange network, really — there’s a natural pressure to discover and link duplicate questions. The more questions you have, the higher the possibility a given new question isn’t in fact a new question, but a duplicate of an older existing question. Because of this, we’ve continually enhanced the tools for finding, linking, and merging duplicate questions:

Handling Duplicate Questions Linking Duplicate Questions Improved Question Merging …

Q: Is tool x versus tool y a fair question?

demongolemCan I ask the pros and cons between 2 programs on SR? Example: I have used Open Office for the longest time for my free word processor. I am interested in trying LibreOffice. Why should I change? Why should I not change?

No, guys, there is something inherently wrong with questions about editors/IDEs
We can't have 10 questions about JS/PHP editors with slightly different requirements
@Seth Yepp. If only people would read them...
@Gilles I've already read this long time ago
Questions about IDEs/editors are differrent from others because there is a number of well-known solutions
*most others
I still don't see how answers for our currenly highest voted question softwarerecs.stackexchange.com/questions/6/… with unclear principles of voting for them could help anyone
Image you are choosing PHP editor
How is the question CW but not the answers..?
@Gilles So, you mean it just "wont" get resolved? Would it be acceptable then if I just pick up the most upvoted answer and apply it thous creating a new status-quo?
@leventov I think we shouldn't treat them differently because there are a lot of situations where there are three or four common answers. {Photoshop, Gimp, DamnIForgotOne} are the common pixel editors. {Inkscape, Illustrator, CoralDraw} are the common vector graphic tools. Same goes for all other "professional style" programs as well. "Our" tools are no different then that of other professionals who work primary on computers.
The only reason there are more different code editors is this: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostWritersAreWriters
@Gilles thanks for the comment on the free/gratis question. I could have come up with that myself...
8:15 PM
@AngeloNeuschitzer I agree that editors/IDEs are similar to other types of professional software, except there are dozens (hundreds?) tools for programmers and only 3-4-5 for designers, engineers, ..
@leventov There are dozens of tools for designers, but for each of them only 3 or 4 that are commonly known. Such as there are only 3 or 4 Java IDEs, 3 or 4 Python IDEs 3 or 4 ... you get the idea.
@AngeloNeuschitzer but. You will see problems when the site goes public
@leventov I don't think so. After some time (and I don't think that will be long) we have covered about every aspect of Java Developing that exists (its not that much anyway) and can close new Qs as dups.
@AngeloNeuschitzer programmers create tools for all professionals, of cause the most tools they create for themselves
@leventov And still, there are only 3 or 4 popular editors for a given language. The amount of complexity that is in our work is less than we perceive it. You can ask only so and so many questions about IDEs.
Lets have a look at the opposite and what I think will happen if we allow questions like you proposed.
8:23 PM
@AngeloNeuschitzer "to cover all aspects" is not equal to "make an additional value in area of choosing Java IDE over the internet"
1. I think that it will reduce the valid answers because if there comes a new Java IDE up thats cool, its not a valid answer to the Eclipse vs Netbeans vs IDEA question.
I don't insist that my question IDEA vs Eclipse vs NetBeans should be opened
2. Its really hard to explain when this criteria gets applied so "OpenOffice vs. Ms Office" question seems legit, but isn't (as there are good alternatives, they are just not that good known)
I know, its an example.
3. As these questions don't have "correct" answers (and cant have them by design) One can't know whats the solving answer to the question. For a Q&A site thats quite a downer.
My deep conviction is that the only answer to that question is IntelliJIDEA
:) I thought so.
8:27 PM
Q: What is required for a question to contain "enough information"?

FlykOne of the key problems that I see Software Recommendations having, is people asking extremely vague and simple questions that ultimately boil down to one of the two close reasons we see on the rest of the network: too broad unclear what you're asking To aid the future of this site and to cle...

Say, it's time for a new podcast. Waay time.
If you need JavaEE - maybe Eclipse or NetBeans, multilanguage development - maybe Eclipse and NetBeans, and so on. But "pure java development" is IntelliJ
Except its not gratis.
which is a downer to a lot of people.
But I already see how answer "Eclipse" will be highes voted (and accepted) for any "Java IDE" question
This might be too broad:
Q: Free, light-weight launcher for legacy Android devices/versions

D_VPlease suggest a free, light-weight launcher for the Android devices which are now categorized as legacy devices, running on Ice Cream Sandwich or earlier (yup, ICS is now a legacy). Most of the launchers these days are designed for the latest range of devices, eating up quite a decent piece of ...

8:31 PM
But thats a different discussion (that I don't want to have as I used IDEA for about 3 days, and Netbeans for 13 years. I despise Eclipse for its interface. And all of that makes a totally biased judge out of me.
@AngeloNeuschitzer it is gratis for "pure Java". That is why I emphasized this in the question
@leventov I never did "pure Java" for a prelonged time.
I think that the "too broad" criteria is totally valid for Java IDEs (and for all of our tools).
If you have at least a little knowledge of your field you know what IDEs are there.
And if you don't you can't ask a good question about them anyway.
Don't think I'm offended that IntelliJ won't win. The same thing with PHP, JS and all other editors. Sublime Text, NotePad and Vim will occupate all good positions for any such questions
Regardless the state of things in 2014-2015
As will Photoshop, Indesign, Postgres, ... Yes. SE doesn't do Polling good.
@AngeloNeuschitzer I agree. That is why I started this discussion here in the chat. Probably such questions without really specific requirements should be "too board" automatically
"code hinting", "syntax highlighing", "linux", "windows", "cross-platform", "FTP support", "debugging", "refactorings" are not really specific in this sense
8:40 PM
After the first 10 or so, yes.
From the first
No, because this questions have to be answered once for all the required aspects. Even if adding more requirements doesn't narrow down the choice to more than 3/4 the answers SHOULD differ in the empathizes of the aspects. (cont.)
"Pure Java IDE" produces different (more that 3 actually) results than "Spring, J2EE, Hibernate support". Answers to the former must show (in text, screenshots, etc.) that the recommended IDE does that really well while the Answers to the latter must provide a complete different set of arguments.
A "Pure Java IDE" doesn't care about "can I reference Spring beans directly from code?" while the latter won't put so much stress on splendid support of the Java SE Libraries
While the answers {Eclipse, Netbeans, IDEA...} stay the same the argumentation why THIS one is best HERE should change. And if it does not and the answers are just copy/paste then they are bad.
@leventov Still there?
@AngeloNeuschitzer I don't understand why we can't live without "pure Java IDE" question at all? Only very specific ones
8:55 PM
@Seth Why? It clearly specifies what kind of application is wanted (Android Launcher), what OS (Android), required features (runs on 2.x up, resource-friendly, not too much compromising on features). It even has a "user-story", kind of ("legacy devices"). To us "Android S. Wrecks", it's pretty clear what is meant :)
You have voted for closing our "JS/PHP editor"?
@leventov Link?
@Izzy Angelo. He did. At the same time he advocates board questions here.
Question with 10 answers is certainly too board on this site
@Izzy Yes, but that is a bit opinion based (light on resources) ans such, which could make it too broad. Just asking opinions.
8:59 PM
@leventov Nah, I advocate narrow questions ("IDE which is optimized for pure Java" is narrow enough to me) I just accept that there are a dozen or so questions where the same three programs will be the answer.
I was uncertain if this specific question should be closed and closed it after the third thought or so. I'm uncertain if I would still do so, most likely not.
@AngeloNeuschitzer we return to the same problem. We should have unbelievably responsible voters for this approach to be viable
@leventov I see what you mean. I have to go to bed now. I will give it further thoughts until tomorrow.
ok me too
@Seth As someone counting Android somehow as his "speciality" (even published multiple books on it), I'd say it's fine. Requires a bit background, yes. But it seems pretty clear to me. YMMV, of course, as that of other Android users.
2 hours later…
11:27 PM
a preview of the days to come:


Ouch... shudder
11:54 PM
Hmm.. I just voted to delete everything in the queue. Is that bad?
that's what it's for

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