English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mahnax

04:14

Well, I should get back to work. Bye.

Cerberus

Bai!

tchrist

04:26

OH.

Lord God but my keystokes are delayed!

I wasn’t dual tracking my brain.

And I keep getting timeouts.

@simchona You should go read the Scary Image Room chatlog. You will see that it is peaceable.

Cerberus

How about if you simply picked the first image in the HTML after <img class="thumbimage" ? That would be a huge improvement. To be honest, people are complaining about this all the time in English chat. Consider subtle but all the more misleading errors like this one: Protura. It would be really cool if this could be fixed at some point! — Cerberus 51 secs ago

This is about the wrong pictures that appear in in-line Wikipedia links in chat.

tchrist

04:41

I see.

That is a slightly different thing. But it is still the problem of not being able to choose.

I can see why they do not want to do that, even for Wikipedia. Too much bother. Confusing interface. Etc.

Cerberus

How much bother is it, really?

This shouldn't be any harder than getting the image as I described above.

And, if Wikipedia should some day change its HTML, it should display an error image or no image, for anything is better than the wrong image!

tchrist

7

Q: Automatically resize uploaded images

Possible Duplicate: Thumbnail image on Stack Overflow Embed smaller version of images from imgur.com to reduce traffic Could large images of more then 640 pixels wide automatically be resized to reduce loading time and band width use? Not that I have a prehistoric internet connection...

20

A: Thumbnail image on Stack Overflow

Images embedded in your post are already displayed to be 630 pixels wide on the regular site, or 90% on the mobile site, to fit the page layout. If that's not enough, or if you want to reduce the download file size too, you have a couple options: Use the HTML syntax for embedding images, which ...

user19161

I like my new dodgerblue colour very much.

Cerberus

> whenever a >640px wide image was uploaded. This would display the imgur-resized image inline, and the full-size would be linked in directly.

tchrist

That would be good.

Cerberus

04:47

This sounds like a good idea: Imgur already has automated thumbnails, after all.

It does mean, however, that all large images would have to be uploaded to Imgur.

tchrist

Right.

Can you even do that?

Surely they must have some limits. Plus Stack must be paying them.

Cerberus

It would seem inconvenient.

user19161

-4

Q: What should be our policy on content in user profiles?

I have noticed that some users use their profile page to advertise their blog or the books they have written. Should we have restrictions on what users can include in their profile page? If so, what should they be? If a user is found to be in violation of the restrictions, what should be the con...

discussion

tchrist

Got it.

user19161

I think this is ridiculous.

tchrist

04:52

http://i.stack.imgur.com/CLQzMl.jpg

Cerberus

Let's face it, they are never going to do anything about this, because 99 % of users are not bothered by large pictures.

tchrist

user19161

He should have at least read the FAQ before asking.

tchrist

http://i.stack.imgur.com/CLQzMl.jpg

That has the l appendix.

For the thumbnail.

Cerberus

@JasonBourne Yeah it doesn't really matter.

tchrist

04:53

And that is the full one.

user19161

Let's not slow down chat anymore by posting more pics.

tchrist

Darn it, the link in the thumb goes only to the thumb. It should go to the full one.

This is doable.

Cerberus

@JasonBourne Does it slow you down?

You should all switch to Firefox on Windows. Never a problem.

tchrist

So all we have to do is detect the magic l suffix on imgur stuff and have it click-through to the full one. Very solvable.

user19161

@Cerberus It might, when you enter chat or try to load it, it seems.

tchrist

04:55

In fact, their upload can do it automatically!

Cerberus

@JasonBourne Nope, as quick as always.

user19161

@Cerberus Chrome on Linux is a big problem in chat.

Cerberus

@tchrist No, because it would have to be uploaded to Imgur first, and I never do that.

user19161

-1

Q: "Personal basis" or "individual basis"

Which one is correct: personal basis or individual basis? I want to use it in a formal letter.

word-choice

tchrist

@JasonBourne Did you go to the scary room?

Cerberus

04:56

@JasonBourne Switch to Firefox!

user19161

For me this is not not constructive but rather not a real question. I find the not constructive option overused.

tchrist

@Cerberus Yes, but if people did, it could be very highly sort-out-able.

user19161

@tchrist No, too scary.

tchrist

I always upload to imgur first because I do not want link rot.

Cerberus

@tchrist That would be terribly inconvenient.

tchrist

04:56

Terribly?

Cerberus

Yes.

tchrist

What, that you have to hit the upload button?

Heavens!

It is the only way I ever do it. I am alive.

Cerberus

And go through the menus.

I just want to paste a link as always.

tchrist

I never do that. I do not want the link to die.

Cerberus

And wait for the upload to proceed.

I don't care whether my links die.

Really, uploading a file to Imgur takes about 20 times as long as pasting a link here.

tchrist

04:58

It is worth it to avoid making people download big images without their say-so.

It is just that the mechanics are not there for that. They could be.

Cerberus

It would mean that I would never post pictures any more.

tchrist

Wow, are you that . . . I don’t even know the word for it. Lazy? Uncaring? In a hurry?

Cerberus

Oh God, another coloured square. What is this, Windows 8?

tchrist

It is the only way I ever ever ever do it, so it is hard for me to understand your recoil.

Cerberus

@tchrist All of the above.

user19161

04:59

@Cerberus No, just Windows 8.

Cerberus

I use a computer because it is quick and convenient. I care about speed and convenience a great deal.

user19161

Why did Kit change out of her pink square?

Cerberus

@JasonBourne Right!

user19161

It looked so pretty!

Dumb Cow

Oh there is orange.

Cerberus

05:00

Hello green.

Dumb Cow

Probably go to Photoshop and discover a new color.

tchrist

@Cerberus Yours, not anybody else’s. Hence the problem.

Dumb Cow

Hello Cerb.

tchrist

We call that sweeping things under somebody else’s carpet.

Cerberus

@tchrist I really think you are greatly exaggerating the "problem", but whatever.

Dumb Cow

05:01

How was the party in Amsterdam?

Cerberus

You are unfair.

tchrist

Don’t think so.

Don’t see how.

Cerberus

You are on the Internet. You don't disable images in your browser, which is but the click of a few buttons. Then you run the risk of downloading a few MB.

tchrist

I just am sensitive to using other people’s resources without their consent.

Cerberus

It could happen on any page.

@tchrist I object to this.

tchrist

05:02

Those are rude pages. I never have that happen to me.

Cerberus

You have consented by being here.

Don't you ever visit blogs or fora or basically every other site? Many, many pages are several MB.

tchrist

I have not consented to having infinitely sized images shoved at me. I should not have to. It is part of the normal social contract.

user19161

I would like it if all sites are given the same set of themes registered users can choose from when they log in, much like the themes in gmail. — Jason Bourne 19 secs ago

tchrist

The only other places I ever visit have very strict size limits, for just this very reason.

Cerberus

@DumbCow It was nice! It was in the bar of an hotel.

tchrist

05:03

I can think of 5 such places.

This is the only place that just shoves it all down your throat.

Cerberus

@tchrist This is 8 MB, and if you really don't want this, disable images.

@tchrist Why do you care about a couple of MB?

Dumb Cow

@Cerberus I see, great.

tchrist

It really seems morally wrong.

Cerberus

@DumbCow How was your night and day?

@tchrist I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree.

tchrist

You seem to come from a culture where it is permitted. I come from one where it is considered extremely rude.

Dumb Cow

05:05

@Cerberus Very eventful — I slept at night, I did StackExchange throughout the day.

tchrist

This is the only place out of many where you can even do it by accident.

Cerberus

@tchrist That's silly. And you aren't answering my questions.

user19161

I come not from this world.

tchrist

What question?

Cerberus

@DumbCow Wow! Are your hands still shaking?

Dumb Cow

05:05

@JasonBourne K.

tchrist

I should not have to deal with your big images.

It is ok if I click through.

Cerberus

1 min ago, by Cerberus

@tchrist Why do you care about a couple of MB?

3 mins ago, by Cerberus

You have consented by being here.

tchrist

It is not ok if they are just in my face, and on my disk, and sucking down my cache and my bandwidth.

No, this is just wrong.

Dumb Cow

@Cerberus Yes, it was really interesting

Cerberus

32 secs ago, by Cerberus

1 min ago, by Cerberus

@tchrist Why do you care about a couple of MB?

tchrist

05:06

I care because it is wrong.

Please stop doing it.

Because I have a shared connection that I pay for.

Cerberus

I see. This discussion is dysfunctional.

tchrist

I am used to deciding what I pay for.

I am not used to you deciding what I pay for.

That is not right.

Cerberus

Then I shan't post any lines here any more, because every line is another KB.

1 min ago, by Cerberus

3 mins ago, by Cerberus

You have consented by being here.

tchrist

If there is nothing wrong with it, why should I not post that 22 megabyte link right here and now?

Cerberus

You have decided yourself.

tchrist

05:08

I do not have to consent to infinite storage costs.

Cerberus

@tchrist I really wouldn't mind. It does not bother me.

tchrist

Tell me that.

Wow. Just wow.

user19161

Is this discussion still ongoing? Fascinating!

tchrist

I would be banned, and you know it.

Cerberus

8 MB is hardly infinite. How many MB does this chat cost you daily? Do you know?

tchrist

05:09

It is mostly text. It is very little.

Until you start shoving megabytes at me.

Cerberus

@tchrist You would certainly not be banned, and I wouldn't even notice.

tchrist

It makes anyone and everyone pay for it anytime they load the chatlog.

user19161

I don't even think about these megabytes. I just use the slowest cheapest broadband here which is fast enough for me.

Cerberus

@tchrist I disagree. Images are posted all the time. And there is the page itself and the video thumbnails and the Wiki thumbnails...surely that will be several MB a day.

tchrist

A day.

Not every few minutes.

Cerberus

05:10

And how often do I post large images?

tchrist

I can see you do not believe in reasonably polite bandwidth treatment.

user19161

When I download a linux image, the speed is usually around 300kB/s.

tchrist

Because everything is just "free" for you.

Cerberus

Because I think 8 MB is peanuts for everyone except tetherers.

Compared to the rest of the web.

And if it isn't, you can disable it.

tchrist

So you figure it should be free for everyone else, and if it is not, then that is their problem not yours. Is that correct?

Cerberus

05:11

No; see above.

tchrist

I will post to MSO.

Cerberus

Good idea.

simchona

Really, still?

tchrist

Asking if the current behavior is by design.

Cerberus

I think having a thumbnail created in the poster's browser is the best option.

And uploading the thumbnail to Imgur. All automatically as you in-line an image, of course.

There will be a slight additional delay, but that shouldn't be a problem.

tchrist

05:13

If there is something wrong with posting a 100-megabyte image and nothing wrong with posting a 10-kilobyte image, then we are now only finessing where the line falls.

Cerberus

Oh, and only for large images. Images under 500 KB or so probably don't need this. Or 100 KB.

tchrist

Woud you not agree?

Yes, that is right.

Even on the main site, this problem does not need to arise. It is the automaticness of chat that bars the obvious solutions without help from the Powers.

Cerberus

@tchrist It is essential. I think a regular photo whose size is similar to what most people will use by browsing a couple of pages on a random Internet site is not "excessive".

tchrist

Because you can do the thumbnail thing.

Cerberus

I actually don't know how it works in Answers.

tchrist

05:15

You think people normally browse pages with 10 megabytes needed to load in them? I do not.

Cerberus

I just click the Image button.

tchrist

Well, but you should not if it is a big image. You should do the link-the-thumbnail trick, which on the main site is actually doable. Just not here.

Cerberus

@tchrist I have no idea how that works. I just use the first available button there.

tchrist

What is your imgur of?

Cerberus

A huge image for your benefit.

And another one.

tchrist

05:18

I should like to know what you are posting.

Cerberus

An overview of my data usage.

I used 700 MB yesterday.

tchrist

Every other site I ever look at has image size limits. Notice how Wikipedia does it, for example.

Cerberus

And I was away most of the day.

user19161

I know the internet in Netherlands is very fast.

Cerberus

I think it is good policy for a website to limit automatic downloading of large images, unless it is somehow expected or required.

user19161

05:19

Someone spent 10 minutes downloading something I spent 70 minutes doing so.

Cerberus

Heh.

It's not very fast.

tchrist

@Cerberus They do not do it here though.

Which is the trouble.

user19161

The Dutch are huge, whether it is their internet or their ... .

Cerberus

Vitaly has 60 Mbps up, 60 down. I have de facto 0.8 up, 13 down.

Dumb Cow

@JasonBourne LOL

Cerberus

05:20

@tchrist And they should; but I don't think it is a serious problem, and neither do they, apparently.

tchrist

I have something like 500k.

user19161

@Cerberus Do you still chat with him?

Cerberus

500k what?

@JasonBourne Rarely.

tchrist

Absolute total max bandwidth in bytes per second. It might be 700k. Not sure.

user19161

Yesterday, someone in another room was upset because her boyfriend wanted to see another girl.

user19161

05:23

So I said that if he wanted to see another girl, they should discontinue the couple status.

Cerberus

@tchrist That's not a lot, but still usable.

@JasonBourne Yeah probably, since she is obviously not OK with it.

tchrist

It has always seemed like a lot to me.

Cerberus

What do most people around you have?

user19161

@Cerberus To me, it is OK to date many people at the same time, as long as you are not officially a couple.

tchrist

Same, or less.

Cerberus

05:24

I don't think anybody here with a phone or cable connection at home has less than say 2 Mbps down.

Most people will probably have a lot more.

tchrist

I have never seen more than 700k down. Ever. And I have checked.

Cerberus

I didn't think ADSL or cable internet could be slower than 1 Mb/s.

user19161

I never understood why people need such high speeds. Maybe they download movies all day long...

Cerberus

This is bits, not Bytes, yes?

tchrist

I think it is rated at 1, yes.

I don’t know why I only get 700.

Cerberus

05:26

@JasonBourne As long as there is a mutual understanding, I would say.

user19161

@Cerberus Interesting that she would ask what I think, considering I am the person with the least experience on such matters!

Dumb Cow

Last day of vacation :-(

Cerberus

@JasonBourne Depends on what you call high. Up to, say, 4 Mbps, most files will download faster. At 10 Mbps, you can stream torrented films. As to higher speeds, I don't know: nothing I do ever used that much bandwidth.

@tchrist My connection is rated at 20, but I get 13. It's always like that, depends on local connections and stuff.

@JasonBourne Well, reading and talking to people can replace experience in many ways.

@DumbCow Aww.

Dumb Cow

@Cerberus Thanks for the sympathy.

Or possibly just a ritual. lol

Cerberus

Hello, stalked!

This is your stalker speaking.

@JasonBourne You should look at Cow's profile!

You will appreciate what you see.

Among his "great thinkers".

Dumb Cow

05:33

@Cerberus He knows. :-P

Cerberus

OK.

user19161

05:46

-1

Q: help to fix grammar

Haha, Stackoverflow has english section, what a good news ! Hmm, I am going to take an ielts test while I am not confident of my grammar at all. Please tell me if anything goes wrong, thanks. In my childhood, as quite fond of making models. I was strongly believed that one day, I will(?) be an...

grammar

user19161

Off-topic.

Noah

Hi

How are you guys?

Dumb Cow

@JasonBourne huh.

tchrist

05:59

0

Q: Does image size matter on SE sites?

I have noticed that even though the displayed image here is limited to only 630 pixels wide for the display (via height and width settings in the HTML), there can still be a 10-megabyte image sitting there behind it that when you bring up the page, your browser is slowly grinding through, all jus...

discussion chat images bandwidth

I hope that helps get this clarified.

user19161

1

Q: Usage of "studying"

I was recently chided for wrongly using "studying" as follows: . . . acquiring information by studying books. Is this really wrong? Please note that I'm not a native English speaker.

usage

user19161

What do you guys think of this question and its answers?

tchrist

> Neil: And by the way, I get really annoyed by people that post graphical IMG links that render without my permission on SO, which is explicitly intended to be low bandwidth. Some of us are paying for these bits - in future, please just provide a normal URL.

So it is not just me.

Mahnax

I am back now. Hello.

user19161

@Mahnax Would you like to look at the above post and give me your comments?

Mahnax

06:12

@tchrist Do you have many physical copies of books?

@JasonBourne OK.

tchrist

@Mahnax That is all I have.

Dumb Cow

I plan to remove all these \rms out of Bill D.'s answers and in the process, also get the Copy Editor badge.

Whoops — wrong chat.

Mahnax

@tchrist Fair enough. I am in the same boat, I guess.

@JasonBourne The question is not very good.

user19161

@Mahnax I think it is fine. It addresses a subtle point.

Mahnax

Hmm, but now that I think of it, perhaps it is not as bad as it looks at first.

user19161

06:15

How about the answers? Do you agree with me or not?

Mahnax

I agree with you.

I have clicked an up arrow in support of you.

tchrist

40

Q: Please do something to encourage people to scale down their giant heavyweight photos

Once conveniently posting photos at imgur.com was introduced I see many users uploading photos right from their camera. For example, here the second photo is 2,5K by 2K pixels and has size of 680K. I can't see why this photo could not have been downscaled to much smaller size without any loss of...

feature-request hyperlinks images imgur

Mahnax

2. look at closely in order to observe or read:
she bent her head to study the plans

(x)

user19161

So, I get a downvote without comment? Sad. I think I should delete my account...

user19161

Oh I think it is Kris who downvoted me.

Mahnax

06:23

Kris has downvoted you, I think.

tchrist

That is my surmisal as well.

Mahnax

How do you feel about Jasper's answer, @tch?

tchrist

@Mahnax I don’t know that I understand it.

Mahnax

@tchrist I see.

tchrist

But one can certainly study books.

Mahnax

06:25

Yes, certainly.

tchrist

Kris says you cannot study a book, doesn’t he?

Mahnax

He does, yes.

user19161

I think Kris is Thursagen @mah, haha.

Mahnax

@JasonBourne I doubt it, personally.

tchrist

But I am not sure of the relationship between studying a book and studying its contents.

Are they the same, or do they differ?

user19161

06:28

@tchrist Yes, I have doubts too, but given a choice I would fit the meaning of studying books in the second sense and not the first. Examples given in the second sense include studying maps, so that is a defensible line of thought.

Mahnax

Oh, my copy of The Silmarillion has a rather nice appendix.

tchrist

?

Mahnax

Er?

user19161

OK, I will downvote the other two answers as part of my rage vent.

tchrist

@Mahnax What appendix?

@JasonBourne I look forward to reading your comments.

Mahnax

06:31

Elements in Quenya and Sindarin Names

> These notes have been compiled for those who take an interest in the Eldarin languages…

user19161

@tchrist Haha, I think I rage quit over the comments there too.

Cerberus

You might also consider changing your title into something more specific and constructive, such as "can automatic loading of huge images in chat be solved?". — Cerberus 19 secs ago

Mahnax

There is an index before, some maps afterwards, and some family trees before the index.

user19161

I think I RAGE QUIT.

tchrist

@Mahnax Oh those. Right. I thought you meant something new.

Mahnax

06:37

@tchrist Ah, no.

user19161

I can certainly study this tutorial, that manual, this paper or that contract. It means I read them carefully and try to understand the contents.

tchrist

@Mahnax There is a lot more where that comes from. A lot more.

user19161

And in these cases, I study their contents, just like the book.

Mahnax

@tchrist More than the stuff in the back of my copy of LOTR?

tchrist

You know about HoME, right?

Mahnax

06:42

No, I don't. What is it?

I feel as though I should, though.

user19161

Home is where the heart is.

user19161

And Lot R is where the cars park.

user19161

HAHAHAHAHA

user19161

Everyone please laugh.

Cerberus

Hey I have an Englush queshen.

Mahnax

06:44

Ayuss?

user19161

This Kris has given me many headaches.

Cerberus

You know when you have a sticker, and you want to stick it onto something; you need to first remove the foil or whatever it came on.

You typically try to pry it away from the foil by lifting a corner of the sticker with your nail.

user19161

What is the name of this action? Is that the question?

Mahnax

Oh, the History of Middle Earth?

Cerberus

Now I have this partial sentence: "...if we have this bit of information, it will allow us to...".

I am talking about being able to read a few words in a manuscript, and using those words as a starting point to decipher the rest.

tchrist

06:47

The word is peel.

Cerberus

I was going to use the sticker metaphor there.

tchrist

@Mahnax Right.

Cerberus

Hmm yes, peel is for removing the entire sticker. But not for the corner, right?

Mahnax

@tchrist I would love to own it, but that would be difficult, most likely.

tchrist

It is many pages.

user19161

06:48

@Cerberus extrapolate

Mahnax

Yes.

tchrist

Some are more interesting than others.

Mahnax

Twelve volumes.

Cerberus

> ... peeling off this corner will allow us to decipher the rest of the document.

I don't know, this doesn't sound right.

The metaphor does not come across.

Mahnax

Oh boy, I can buy it all for the low price of £112.50!

Cerberus

06:49

Perhaps I should leave it.

tchrist

You don’t peel off corners. Usually.

Cerberus

Exactly.

user19161

@Cerberus It is not a great metaphor.

tchrist

@Mahnax I would get 3, then perhaps 10–12.

Cerberus

It is great conceptually; but stylistically? Not so much.

tchrist

06:50

@Mahnax Is that the black version in three volumes, with onion skin?

Cerberus

I'll just skip it.

Mahnax

@tchrist tolkien.co.uk/titles/72760/…

So yes, I think.

tchrist

Yes, that’s it.

I do have that version.

Mahnax

Wow.

tchrist

But the big separate hardcovers are easier to read, due to larger print and such.

They are also more expensive.

Mahnax

06:51

I would imagine the ones you have are rather like Bibles.

tchrist

I am not fond of the mass-market paperbacks. Too small, poor binding.

The trade papers are ok, but the hardcovers are better.

Please do not ask. :)

Mahnax

All right, I won't.

tchrist

The black ones are like Bibles, due to the onion skin.

user19161

@tchrist I find that the paperbacks are often bound better than the hardbacks.

tchrist

@JasonBourne Not possible, unless you have those fake hardcovers they sell in the UK.

These, however, have properly sewn signatures and silk ribbons.

They are not glued. That is an abomination unheard of in North America. We bind our hardcovers. The UK cheats unless it is for a high-priced deluxe edition.

user19161

06:54

@tchrist Ah, so UK has fake hardcovers and US real ones, very interesting!

Mahnax

I prefer to read paperbacks, for some reason.

I dislike dust jackets.

tchrist

You can get real hardcovers in the UK, but not for all titles by a long shot.

user19161

@Mahnax Same.

tchrist

That is amusing.

Mahnax

Not all hardbacks have dust jackets though.

@tchrist Oh?

tchrist

06:55

My brother discards dusk jackets immediately, thereby destroying most of the book’s value and impacting its lifetime.

user19161

Dust jackets don't protect the book. They merely collect dust.

tchrist

Try to resell something without a dusk jacket.

You are laughed at. You will not get a third the price.

All collectors want only dusk-jacket books. The rest do not even count.

user19161

It is as if the book came in two parts.

tchrist

Having the original dusk jacket is quite important.

user19161

The title is printed on the dusk jacket but not the cover.

user19161

06:57

Of course, if the title were printed on the cover itself, that would be good.

tchrist

@JasonBourne Of course it is.

Mahnax

Why are you all calling them dusk jackets?

user19161

Also, the dusk jacket gets damaged easily.

tchrist

Because that is their name.

user19161

@Mahnax Just copying you.

tchrist

06:57

@JasonBourne Then you are not taking good care of your books.

user19161

@Mahnax Oh I see I misspelled dust.

tchrist

You can get the stuff that libraries use to help if you have that careless bent.

Mahnax

@JasonBourne I don't think you are.

tchrist

heh

user19161

Wait, are they called dust or dusk jackets? HAHAHAHAHA

Mahnax

06:58

Dust jackets. They are dust jackets.

user19161

Yes, since they collect dust.

Mahnax

We have some of the Harvard Classics, but not all of them. I wonder why we have such a strange collection.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…