English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

00:00

beseech /bɪˈsiːtʃ/, v.
Pa. t. and pa. pple. besought /bɪˈsɔːt/. Forms: Inf. 2 bisec-en, 2-5 bisechen, bysech-e(n, 3-6 beseche (3 -secchen, 4 bezeche, bicheche, 5 bysuche), 6-7 beseeche, 6- beseech. Also north. and n. midl. 2-4 biseke, 4-5 be-, by-, (4 bezeke, 5 besike, beseyk, 5-6 Sc. beseik, 6 bezeik), 6-7 beseek(e. Pa. t. 3 bisohte, 3-4 -soȝte, -souhte, -souȝte, 4 bi-, bysought, -sowght, besoght, 5 -sougt, 5-6 -soughte, 5-9 Sc. besocht, 6- besought; also 6- beseeched (now regarded as incorrect).

And then there’s think, thank, thunk.

thunk /θʌŋk/, dial. and joc. pa. t. and pa. pple. of think v.2 Cf. thunk sb.1
1876 C. C. Robinson Dial. Mid-Yorks. p. xlii, ― Think··(Thuongk) The last form is less employed participially than in the past, in which tense it is of constant occurrence.
1887 Lantern (New Orleans) 15 Oct. 3/2 ― Who’d a thunk it?
1908 N. Duncan Every Man for Himself ii. 60 ― Leastwise, he thunk so, admittin’ ’twas open t’ argument.
1939 Joyce Finnegans Wake 504, ― I then tuk my taken‐place lying down, I thunk I told you.

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes, of course. We still have plenty of those in (idiomatic but living) English, like albeit and and if he be rich...

tchrist

Be it early or late, you shall complete this project, sir.

The past tense of thank used to be thonk.

Cerberus

@tchrist The present subjunctive is even slightly deader in Dutch than in English, so no "if he have", except in very few idiomatic phrases.

tchrist

During the 14th-16th centuries.

Present subjunctive is pretty dead in English, too.

Provided it be spoken English we’re talking about.

Cerberus

@tchrist You can use it with many more auxiliary and modal verbs...

tchrist

00:07

Although of course I would say that in speech, too.

Cerberus

Had she told me, I wouldn't have...

Well, maybe not many.

tchrist

I was looking for others.

None appeared.

Cerberus

Were, should, had...

With other verbs it sounds archaic. I believe it used to be possible.

tchrist

Did he but cast his vote for Obama, he would today be celebrating his victory instead of drowning his defeat in wasted champagne.

Not sure I could bring myself to say that.

Cerberus

Lived there a man in Lancaster rich enough to pay the ransom, I would not be here.

tchrist

00:10

Would he but ....

Cerberus

Yes, would he but is good.

user19161

Did I just enter the Subjunctive Room?

Cerberus

So be it.

tchrist

@WillHunting Would that you had! This is the woody-butt room.

Be that as it may.

So mote^Wmay it be.

Cerberus

By the way, there could be a connection between the inversion with only etc. and that with but.

Although they seem quite different.

tchrist

00:14

Hm.

user19161

I like this sentence in Great Expectations: The effort of resolution necessary to the achievement of this purpose, I found to be quite awful.

tchrist

There are uncountably (by me) infinite examples of English subjunctives here in Visser.

More profitable it were to scan backwards than forwards.

Cerberus

@WillHunting Ugh!

That is so wordy...

tchrist

Other troubles, too.

Cerberus

> I found the effort required quite awful.

Still far from pretty.

Cerberus

00:36

Hmm what's the Dutch word for warehouse?

I can only think of the English word.

Silly.

Warenhuis is not the same.

Magazijn...

Still not the same thing.

Opslagplaats? Nah.

Distributiecentrum, yes, but that's hardly a pretty word.

I think it has to be magazijn.

Oh!

No, it is pakhuis, of course.

Jesus, I'm stupid.

A tiny bit old fashioned, but good.

tchrist

01:34

Packhouse?

Cerberus

01:47

Yeah.

tchrist

Hm. Storehouse.

We don’t use magazine that way — anymore.

We once did.

Ah, depot?

Cerberus

Yeah, but depot is subtly different.

Stuff in a warehouse is usually meant for shipping. Stuff in a depot is meant to be stored there for a while.

A museum can have a depot but not a warehouse.

Wares are connected to trade, I'd say.

A magazijn is usually connected with a shop.

tchrist

I think of depots has having a military component. Or something to do with the railroads. Hm.

Cerberus

Een warenhuis is like a large department store, oddly.

tchrist

Well, it’s a house of many wares.

Cerberus

01:58

Yeah, a depot has a very...utilitarian ring to it?

tchrist

Or perhaps one housing rabbits. :)

Cerberus

As in a warren?

tchrist

Ew, look up depot in your OED.

Cerberus

If those words are related, I will eat my hat.

tchrist

Yes, as in a rabbit-warren.

Cerberus

01:59

Why?

tchrist

I warrant you would. :)

The ew is that it was for POWs.

Cerberus

POwhats?

Prisoners?

tchrist

Of war.

3. Mil. a. A place where military stores are deposited. b. The head-quarters of a regiment, where supplies are received and whence they are distributed. c. A station where recruits are assembled and drilled, and where soldiers who cannot join their regiments remain. d. attrib. Applied to a portion of a regiment which remains at home when the rest are on foreign service.

e. A place of confinement for prisoners of war. The name used both in France and England during the War with Napoleon.

4. a. A place where goods are deposited or stored; e.g. a coal depot, grain depot, furniture depot; a store-house, depository, emporium.

MετάEd

Depow?

tchrist

Uh ho.

Would you like salt and pepper on your hat?

Warren is indeed related to ware . But it’s to a verb ware, so there is still hope of better repast.

Cerberus

02:02

Is it really?

Ware as in guard, watch over?

tchrist

You can read as well as I.

...Looking...

Cerberus

I would rather not.

tchrist

(Wow, the Scots used ware to mean spring!)

Cerberus

Scotch words are weird.

tchrist

Yes, that ware.

ware /wɛə(r)/, v.1
Forms: 1 warian, 3 ware-n, 3-6, 8-9 dial. war, 3-4 warr(e, 5 waar, 7-9 ’ware, 4- ware.
Etymology: OE. warian = OFris. waria, OS. waron, OHG. be-warôn = beware v. (MHG. waren), ONor. vara (Sw. vara, Da. vare):-OTeut. *warōjan, f. *warō ware sb.2 In ME. the native word coalesced with ware a. OFr. (north-eastern) ware-r (= Central OFr., mod.Fr. garer), of the same meaning, adopted from Teut. The interjectional imperative ware! used in hunting is prob. to be regarded as of Fr. origin. In OE. the verb had, in addition to the senses illustrated below, certain other meanings (‘t…

Which is where warren had me haring off to.

Etymology: a. AFr. warenne, North-eastern OFr. warenne, waresne (whence AL. warenna), corresp. to Central OFr., mod.Fr. garenne, game-park, also (now chiefly) rabbit-warren, Pr. garena; of Teut. origin, f. root *war- to protect, guard: cf. OFr. warir ware v. The suffix is obscure, and it is uncertain whether the word is of Teut. or Rom. formation. The OFr. type *warande (garande, -ende), whence the (M)Dutch warande park, may be a mere variant, or it may represent a Teut. pr. pple. OFr. had also a form varene (perh. due to the med.L. varenna of charters) which survives in mod.Fr. varenne moo…

Lots of Dutch there if you expand it.

Cerberus

02:05

Funny.

tchrist

dances a Mexican hat dance

Cerberus

Hah! I tricked you.

I do not have or own a hat.

tchrist

The hat’s in the mail.

Cerberus

But I will concede a symbolic defeat, if it pleases you.

tchrist

I’m from the home office and I’m here to help you.

Cerberus

02:07

I will deposit any packages from Denver, USA in my depots and pakhuizen.

Unsigned.

tchrist

(Insert famous 3rd great lie in the series on your own. You cannot get me to say it.)

Cerberus

I have no idea what you're saying, but sure.

tchrist

You don’t know the Three Great Lies?

They’re proverbial.

The first is always that the check is in the mail.

The second is that someone is from the government, or home office, or headquarters, and that they are here to help you.

Cerberus

Is this from a film or something?

tchrist

The third one is too much in the way of ribaldry for duplication here.

No, not from a movie.

Cerberus

02:10

The third not being "I will divorce my husband/wife for you"?

tchrist

But gosh, now you make me wonder when it started. It is very old, older than living memory.

That is hardly risqué, now is it?

Cerberus

@tchrist I.e. from a film, for you Americans.

tchrist

I do not think it is from film.

It may antedate film.

Google: "three great lies check is in the mail"

Cerberus

"I never have one-night stands, except now"?

tchrist

Close.

Cerberus

02:11

I always practice safe sex with everybody else, so it's OK"?

tchrist

The least seedy version is that sure, I’ll respect you in the morning.

Cerberus

That is a bit of an anticlimax.

tchrist

It gets worse from there. Like you can’t get preggers the first time.

Or don’t worry, I’ll pull out.

But the most common one is "I won't come in your mouth."

I am not making this stuff up.

Google it.

Cerberus

"I'm from the home office" certainly sounds like a film.

Eww.

tchrist

I thought everyone knew those. Ask @MετάEd.

Cerberus

02:13

Okay, definitely American.

tchrist

I TOLD YOU!

Cerberus

No offence.

MετάEd

@tchrist Knew those what?

tchrist

How can you tell?

@MετάEd The proverbial three great lies.

MετάEd

Oh. Let me guess.

I see "the check is in the mail".

tchrist

02:14

Cerb thinks they’re American. I don’t know where they’re from though.

MετάEd

"I'm from the government and I'm here to help you."

tchrist

See, everybody knows them!

Stop now.

MετάEd

I'm not buying "I won't come in your mouth". It's "I'll pull out, I promise".

user19161

WTF are you guys talking about now?

tchrist

@MετάEd Buy what you will. :)

I’m afraid finding its origin is outside of ELU’s purview.

But I still wonder.

Looks like Johnny Carson used to tell it.

user19161

02:18

english.stackexchange.com/questions/91032/… and english.stackexchange.com/questions/91031/… should be closed.

tchrist

But Googling finds a multitude. UD has it.

Even Urban Dictionary.

@WillHunting I was the first closevoter, I bet.

He self-deleted! Yay!

Great, I get skald and zeitgeist right, and misspell minstrel. How duh.

user19161

I think those two are so badly written on so many counts that it is quite pointless to answer.

tchrist

Oh wow.

The lawbooks call a common scold a communis rixatrix!

Cerberus

There is a law about rixatrices?

tchrist

Rixatrix is a cool word.

There is.

Cerberus

02:24

Odd.

And what does communis mean? For it should not mean common.

tchrist

Yeah, well.

Common scold

In the common law of crime in England and Wales, a common scold was a species of public nuisance—a troublesome and angry woman who broke the public peace by habitually arguing and quarreling with her neighbours. The Latin name for the offender, communis rixatrix, appears in the feminine gender and makes it clear that only women could commit this crime. The offence, which was exported to North America with the colonists, was punishable by ducking: being placed in a chair and submerged in a river or pond. Although rarely prosecuted it remained on the statute books in England and Wales ...

Cerberus

Haha.

I guess you can use communis to mean "common" as in a common whore.

tchrist

Websters 1913 had “rixatrix: (noun) (Old Eng. Law) A scolding or quarrelsome woman; a scold.”

Rixatrix is a very obscure Old English legal term. It is Latin for scolding woman or shrewish female quarrel-maker. It is the Latin feminine of rixator ‘contentious person.’ From the Latin verb rixare ‘to quarrel’ derive a number of other rare terms, some English, some manorial Latin:
rixation = ‘brawling’
rixa = ‘debate, contest’
rixor = ‘contestant, disputer’
rixosous = ‘quarrelsome,’ from the Late Latin adjective rixosus

Oops, false lead:

rix-baron. Now Hist.
Etymology: ad. G. reichsbaron.
A baron of the German Empire.
A. 1849 Mangan Poems (1859) 138 ― Thou knowest him well, The proud Rix-baron.

So rixosous mean querulous, does it?

But rixation is a pugilant word.

Perhaps less organized.

Cerberus

I know only rixa.

Which usually means fight/argument with words.

tchrist

How come we now cite Latin verbs in the infinitive instead of the normal 1s ind active?

The citation form was always sum, not esse. etc.

Cerberus

02:33

Both ways have been used for a very long time.

tchrist

rixa = quarrel?

Cerberus

Yeah.

Maybe it can be used in a somewhat broader sense too.

But I would look at quarrel first.

tchrist

Not a lot of words with two x's in them.

Cerberus

> I. A quarrel, brawl, dispute, contest, strife, contention (class.; esp. freq. after the Aug. period; "syn.: contentio, altercatio, disceptatio, jurgium)"

> II. In gen., a battle, contest (very rare)

tchrist

coxendix exciplex executrix exlex exonarthex exotoxin exterminatrix extispex maxixe oxyhexact oxyhydroxide paxwax saxitoxin sextuplex taxwax toxophylaxin xanthoxenite xanthoxin xanthoxyl xanthoxylaceous xanthoxylene xanthoxylin xanthoxyloïn xanthoxylon xerox xeroxed

jurgium? hm.

Cerberus

02:36

Probably from iuro, to swear, curse.

tchrist

But the other jokes are from jocular, so that is a false lead.

Cerberus

Like ius.

tchrist

Right.

It looks juridical.

coxˈendix.
Pl. coxˈe.ndices.
Etymology: L., f. coxa.
The hip or hip-bone; also the ischium, the ilium.

Cerberus

Hmm I wouldn't say so.

Iurgium is indeed from ius.

tchrist

Words that start with jur- make me think of jurisprudence. Surely that is related to ius and iuro.

I wonder whether coxendix and coccyx are related.

Cerberus

02:39

Yes, iuris prudentia is ehm knowledge/wisdom about law.

tchrist

> L. coccȳx, a. Gr. κόκκυξ, -ῡγ- cuckoo, also in Galen the os coccygis, or cuckoo bone, so called because in man it was supposed to resemble the bill of the cuckoo.

Cerberus

Ius comes from the same root as junction: binding.

tchrist

Greek cuckoo. Learn something new every day. Must be time for bed. :)

Cerberus

Coxendix sounds Latin?

tchrist

Right, and coccyx looks Greek.

Cerberus

02:41

Yes, y is always Greek.

Except in a few rare weird semi-misspellings.

tchrist

Does Dutch preserve that?

Some languages lose it.

Cerberus

Y?

Yes, unless the whole word is Batavified.

tchrist

Right. Some respell to Latin i.

Bat...?

Cerberus

That is more like Italian.

tchrist

Yes, Italian can be pretty bad.

Cerberus

02:42

Batavi = Celtic (I think) people who lived here during the early R. Empire.

tchrist

Spanish keeps h’s, but normally rewrites y’s. Italian dumps the h’s, too.

Cerberus

And a common Latinised name meaning "related to the Netherlands" from probably the Renaissance onwards.

Italian dumps everything.

tchrist

Batavifed sounds like a crime.

Cerberus

English is very faithful, I'll give you that.

Don't you know Batavia?

tchrist

It bellrings, barely.

Cerberus

02:44

That's what Jakarta was called until they gained independence.

And had been for centuries.

tchrist

I somehow thought Roman Batavia was easter than it is.

Cerberus

And, when supporters of Napoleon came to power here, we were officially the Bataafse Republiek.

Perhaps the Batavi came from the east?

I don't know when they arrived in the area.

tchrist

> Batavia being the Latin name of the Low countries

Cerberus

But not really in Roman times, I believe.

The Batavi were marked on the map, that much is true.

tchrist

Batavian /bəˈteɪvɪən/, a. and sb.
Etymology: f. L. Batavia, f. Batavi an ancient people who dwelt on the island Betawe, between the Rhine and the Waal, in part of what is now Holland. See -an.
A. adj. a. Of or pertaining to the ancient Batavi: see above. b. Pertaining to Holland or to the Dutch.

I absolutely did not know it as a fancynym for Dutchers.

Cerberus

02:47

Oh, right! The Betuwe. I had forgotten.

Belgae is also often used for the Dutch.

tchrist

That was the only one I knew.

Cerberus

Even after our independence.

tchrist

Have you ever noticed that Brits tend to use a hard g in algae, but Americans a soft one?

Cerberus

They probably stopped using it when Belgium was created.

A soft g, really?

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

02:49

Hmm.

tchrist

Sample with fungus > fungi.

I always thought soft g was a mistake in fungi.

Cerberus

I would use the soft g there.

tchrist

Fungicides have hard g's though, don’t they?

Cerberus

Do Brits pronoune it funguy?

tchrist

Yes, they do.

Sounds academic, somehow.

Cerberus

02:50

I don't know. I would probably say funji and funjicide.

But algay.

tchrist

OED has /ˈfʌndʒaɪ/.

> alga /ˈælgə/. Pl. algæ /ˈældʒiː/.

I definitely hear people using hard g’s in those.

Cerberus

> "fVndZIsaId

MετάEd

al-jee

tchrist

Hm, fungicide /ˈfʌndʒɪsaɪd/.

Cerberus

Ugh, it won't copy my OED properly.

That's what I had.

My OED doesn't give plurals, alas.

tchrist

02:52

It doesn’t? What do you mean?

MετάEd

@Cerberus I'll speak to the copyist.

Cerberus

Please.

MετάEd

@Cerberus Your OED doesn't give plural, ala.

Cerberus

Ohh it's under "spelling".

tchrist

You can’t search for fungi as a headword?

Cerberus

02:53

Okay, so OED says /dʒ/ everywhere. Then so be it.

tchrist

Mine yields fungus, and oddly, imperfect.

Oh weird: Of a stage in the life cycle of a fungus: not producing or not known to produce sexual organs. Of a fungus, having (apparently) no sexual stage: belonging to the group designated imperfect fungi (or formally, in mod.L., Fungi Imperfecti), in which are included all those fungi which, because a sexual stage is missing or unknown, cannot be assigned to other taxa.

Cerberus

@tchrist I guess I could. I just didn't see it in fungus so I stopped looked, but that was only because I didn't have Spelling expanded.

tchrist

I just did a headword search, and it gave both fungus and imperfect.

imperfect fungi shows up in italic smallcaps, so it is their headwordy thing.

MετάEd

fungible.

Cerberus

Headword search doesn't work, so I would have had to do a full search.

tchrist

02:55

Exchangeable.

Full search takes forever, but finds interesting things.

I don’t have an inverted text index built, because I want to be able to do regex searches.

I suppose I could do both. Hm.

Why does headword search “not work”? The software doesn’t allow it?

          <DEF>Of a stage in the life cycle of a fungus: not producing or not known to produce sexual organs.  Of a fungus, having (app
arently) no sexual stage: belonging to the group designated
            <IL>
              <LF>imperfect fungi</LF>
              <SF>imperfect fungi</SF>
              <MF>imperfect fungi</MF>
            </IL> (or formally, in mod.L.,
            <CF>Fungi Imperfecti</CF>), in which are included all those fungi which, because a sexual stage is missing or unknown, cann

I think I index all the SF or something.

Oops, time to run.

Ah no. I index <LF> and <VF>.

The SGML tags are very kind. They are always simple allcap text immediately surrounded by angle brackets. That makes searching much easier using regexes than in HTML or XML, which is notoriously difficult.

Cerberus

Bye!

tchrist

bbbye

SteveIrwin

08:06

Hello all,Is it okay to post a essay for review in this website?

RegDwighт

10:17

@SteveIrwin no, that would be off-topic on the main site. If you have a specific question about a specific grammar issue with a specific sentence, that would work. If you want people to review a sentence or a paragraph, I think (I think!) that is on-topic on our sister site Writers, — but again, you'll have to be very specific about the review criteria. And if you want people to review an entire essay, that would certainly be off-topic there. But you might have luck in their chat.

The Overlook Hotel

General discussion for writing.stackexchange.com. Writing exer...

SteveIrwin

10:54

@RegDwighт- Thanks for clearing that up.Your help is much appreciated.

RegDwighт

You're welcome.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 a Romney supporter on German TV showed his Freudian slip: he labeled Obama's reëlection a "Phallic victory".

I think @kitfox will actually agree. Also @jsbձոգչ and @robusto. And why not @Cerberus.

►

Direct link to two seconds before he says it. Some discussion thirty seconds later, when the host finally gets a chance to call him out on it.

Journeyman Geek

I don't get how it'll be a pyrrhic victory, its not like he can stand again ;p

Robusto

11:19

@RegDwighт I would agree that you should have a comma before "Writers" in your explanation to SteveIrwin. Not after it. Freakin' pineapples ...

@JourneymanGeek He didn't say Pyhrric, did he? So maybe it wasn't a Freudian slip after all.

He should have said, "I stand by my words!"

RegDwighт

@Robusto I would disagree on the comma before. Makes no sense whatsoever. The comma after was obviously a typo. I replaced it with a dash except I forgot how replacing works.

user19161

@RegDwighт Which sentence?

RegDwighт

Scroll up a wee bit.

Journeyman Geek

@Robusto: It is, in fact a perfect case of 'THAT WORD, IT DOES NOT MEAN WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS'

and even if it wasn't he has no idea how to use it

user19161

11:35

@jou Is that your dog?

Journeyman Geek

ya

user19161

Hello @jsb you are early today.

Robusto

12:03

@RegDwighт Oh, I forgot — you're never wrong. Sorry.

RegDwighт

Why so grumpy? I explained what actually happened.

Robusto

12:19

Commute.

KitFox

12:43

@RegDwighт Agree that he said Phallic? Sounded like it to me.

RegDwighт

That was not the question.

KitFox

Well, I see that.

I thought it was funny to say so though.

RegDwighт

I see.

Don't mess with me, Rob already tried.

KitFox

Oh. I shouldn't mention that I was thinking about your only English slip-up ever just this morning as I was driving in to work.

RegDwighт

Why would you think about that?

Also, why do you keep insisting on the only part?

I haz much misstake.

KitFox

12:48

I was thinking about how that would have revealed your secret identity and ultimately lead to some sort of dramatic fracas. And it's the only one I ever remember.

RegDwighт

Well yeah, if not being a pea farmer counts as a secret identity, I've been properly busted.

KitFox

Maybe you make mistakes, but you make them like a native speaker.

RegDwighт

Rob begs to differ. Probably rightfully so. It's next to impossible for me to use "Kit and I" in the object position even on purpose.

KitFox

Fine. Screw you and your stupid pineapple English. You talk like a idiot.

RegDwighт

Stupid Google changed their GUI again.

KitFox

12:52

I'm done being nice about it.

I can barely understand anything you say.

RegDwighт

It used to be easy to search for videos, now it's hidden under "other".

KitFox

Guess they want you to stick with YouTube.

RegDwighт

And then it was easy to search for videos on a specific site. In fact the videos came neatly pre-sorted in categories.

@KitFox exactly.

Except it's a crime against humanity that will backfire.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт hmmmm, it's on the left, under maps for me

KitFox

Or maybe most people just stick with YouTube, so they figured "why bother?"

RegDwighт

12:54

Because guess why I have to search for videos not on YouTube in the first place?

Because not a single fucking YouTube video is now available in my country.

It's infuriating.

Matt Эллен

because you're crazy and can't spell youtube?

oh

that was my third guess

RegDwighт

They forced me to switch from YouTube to other sites, and now they are forcing me to switch from Google search?

Idiots.

Matt Эллен

OIC, before you get your results

don't you just use the search bar in your browser?

then choose video afterwards

RegDwighт

Where afterwards?

I should mention that every second YouTube video that I am allowed to watch crashes as soon as I move the mouse.

Matt Эллен

RegDwighт

12:59

That started happening when they switched to that HTML5 shit.

@MattЭллен that is exactly what I no longer get.

Matt Эллен

!!

The Overlook Hotel

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…