English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Here automated withdrawals are also totally insecure, so that's why you can revert them. Apparently current levels of fraud are cheaper than changing the system.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:06 PM

@Cerberus well, the "you can reverse them" part isn't so simple here.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But it could be worth a try...

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It should be!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, at best you'll pinpoint a city or a neighbourhood

In some small towns there might only be one branch for a particular bank

so everyone's cheques would start with the same 8 digits

Cerberus

Just abolish cheques!

They're silly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yeah, tell me about it.

But they're still the easiest way to move non-cash money around.

Cerberus

Who do Anglo-Saxons still use them?

Are not!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:08 PM

They totally are

Cerberus

Plastic money is the easiest way.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

there are no fees

and they don't require any fancy gadgets

Cerberus

There are no fees for plastic money here.

You do need gadgets.

But how is cash not more convenient?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus People don't carry lots of cash. it's easily lost or stolen.

Cerberus

Of course.

But you can withdraw the cash if you need it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:09 PM

@Cerberus what do you mean, no fees for plastic money?

Cerberus

There's a just a small yearly fee for having a bank account, but the transactions don't cost anything.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus don't cost YOU anything, maybe. The vendor pays 1.5-5%

whereas cheques are usually free free.

Cerberus

The shops pays a small amount, yes, but not that much.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

(some banks charge on a per-cheque basis, depends on the account)

@Cerberus 1.5-5% is a lot.

Cerberus

I don't believe banks charge that much here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:12 PM

@Cerberus for credit-card transactions?

I'm sure they do

One of the tasks I have had is to try to find ways to reduce transaction fees. In a nutshell, the credit-card processors make it too confusing to actually figure out how much money you are supposed to be charged, so that they can charge you more.

Paypal is actually much nicer in that regard. It has relatively few, and easy-to-understand fees.

Anyway I personally try to use my credit-card everywhere, because it's frickin' convenient. I hate using cash, such a hassle. But in Austria I had to use cash almost everywhere.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, of course not. Debit card.

Nobody uses credit cards here, well, rarely. I use mine almost exclusively online.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, debit-card transactions are similar here. In the US, nobody uses debit cards. They use check-cards, which are credit-cards that have no credit and withdraw from your cheque account. It's like all the insecurity of both a credit-card and direct-withdrawal in one card.

Cerberus

Haha.

So anyway, everybody should just make normal payments by debit card.

It's cheap and convenient and fairly risk free.

William Yang

^ yes lol

solves 90% U.S. debt problems

Cerberus

And you should be able to log into your bank account online with a password!! Who ever came up with that...

William Yang

9:21 PM

you can't buy what you can't pay for

Cerberus

Yo!

@WilliamYang Yeah, it could have that additional effect!

If I should ever be about to go bankrupt, I will surely max out my credit card first.

William Yang

Except the nature of... innovation and progress in general is "buy now, pay later"

Cerberus

I don't know...

William Yang

Hence why i.e. the steel industry is priced below market equilibrium so that all industries sitting on top could benefit from low steel prices

then consumers and government subsidies covers the difference

Cerberus

Governments subsidise the steel industry? Why? Many countries don't even have much of a steel industry?

And how/why do consumers pay?

William Yang

9:24 PM

End products?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, credit-cards are just as cheap and convenient, except no good for paying the gardener, or the non-profit daycare that can't afford the transaction fees.

anyway, I must run. toodles.

Cerberus

So how do steel subsidies affect the price of end products?

William Yang

No it's not the fact that there isn't a steel industry, they do it so that industries that utilize steel could produce more now, then we consumers pay the difference later

I hate 1st year economics

It's a "buy now, pay later" thing

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But they're not cheap! They usually have formidable interests rates, I believe, and they are more expensive for businesses.

@WilliamYang How do consumers pay? I don't get it.

William Yang

i.e. When you go buy anything made of steel? i.e. a pot?

Cerberus

9:27 PM

A pot, of course.

William Yang

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Transaction fees are in my opinion something optional.

Cerberus

How do I pay extra because steel is cheap?

cornbread ninja

@Cerberus, do you wear t-shirts? society6.com/product/the-lord-of-fashion_T-shirt#11=49&4=25

William Yang

one form in taxes

Cerberus

@cornbreadninja Haha.

William Yang

9:28 PM

all your tax dollars allocated by the govt.

cornbread ninja

@Cerberus :D

William Yang

university sucks

Cerberus

@WilliamYang That's tax payers, not consumers; and those tax payers only pay through the government.

William Yang

i still need to pay over $6k for next semester

Cerberus

That's a lot.

William Yang

9:30 PM

consumers are partially tax-payers

Cerberus

Partially, but not essentially.

William Yang

I don't know about you, but here in Canada we have 13% tax on all goods accountable as GDP

Cerberus

Sure.

William Yang

and that is on top of i.e. medical insurance, work-life insurance (if you work) and tonnes etc other taxes

Cerberus

But that is not specifically related to steel.

William Yang

9:31 PM

at least that's how it works here, if you earn, you pay taxes

Cerberus

So you just meant "the government, and, hence, we tax payers"?

William Yang

not directly, but indirectly

where does the govt. get like 90% of their revenue from? tax payers

at least in a democratic system like ours

Cerberus

59 secs ago, by Cerberus

So you just meant "the government, and, hence, we tax payers"?

William Yang

I don't know about i.e. communists

Cerberus

Communists can be democratic.

And democracy is not directly related to any revenue distribution for governments...

William Yang

9:34 PM

and the so called "stimulus package" Obama came up with as well

it didn't work

Cerberus

I'll leave you to your lamentations, then.

William Yang

it's essentially spending in a Keynesian range, borrowing astronomical amounts of money and dumping it into the economy, hoping the wheel will turn again

wikileaks is interesting

Carlo_R.

-6

Q: Do Men inherit their intelligence from their mother or father?

I have read that intelligence is not located on the Y chromosome, because the Y chromosome mainly stores the information to create a male, which works by suppressing the default that would otherwise create a female, and the X Chromosome is the gene that holds the key to our intelligence, which is...

William Yang

All kinds of secrets waiting to be released

oh my god psychology

no lol biology

lol hungry

need to go eat

goodbye world

Carlo_R.

Bye!

tchrist

9:40 PM

reaches out to the number two slot on the supercollider

There’s a gold there just waiting to be awarded.

It’s radioactive though.

user19161

@matt Boo!

Matt Эллен

Hiya @WillHunting :)

user19161

@MattЭллен Are you not sleeping yet? It's past your bedtime.

Matt Эллен

it's not! it's only 21:48

I'm still writing my quota for nanowrimo

user19161

Oops, mixed up with some other guy...

Matt Эллен

9:48 PM

:D

user19161

Too many bedtimes to take care of.

Matt Эллен

I have one of those faces, I know.

I just look like everyone else

user19161

Nah, you are my closest friend on SE!

user19161

Hmm, not too many questions the past few hours...

Matt Эллен

So many ELL question this morning, though (morning from my perspective)

Carlo_R.

9:51 PM

Hello @Will in Italy it is 22:49. What is the time in Singapore?

Matt Эллен

and one or two question about how to write stories

user19161

It's a holiday here tomorrow: Deepavali.

user19161

@Carlo_R. It is 05:52.

user19161

Will Krishna come down to earth to slay my inner demons?

Carlo_R.

Are you already waked up?

Matt Эллен

9:53 PM

@WillHunting maybe. or move a mountain

user19161

@Carlo_R. I have not gone to sleep!

Carlo_R.

Ah, beautiful! @Will

user19161

@Carlo_R. You should watch the movie "Good Will Hunting". It is awesome.

Carlo_R.

Is it on Amazon?

I do not know that movie

But i can imagine that in Singapore the time has no sense as here it has

I imagine that in Singapore the night life is similar to the day life

This phenomenon here happen in few cites like Rome and Milan

But not in the sime size of Singapore

People here want to sleep in any time

Helllo @sim. How are you?

Matt Эллен

Good night!

user19161

10:06 PM

@MattЭллен See you in your dreams.

JSBձոգչ

woah. i was idly hoping to cross 30K by the end of the week, but i did it today because of that stupid "reach out" question

6

Q: Meaning of "reach out to somebody"

The dictionary explains this as: To show somebody that you are interested in them and/or want to help them The explanation indicates the subject of the sentence is the one that offers help, but I think this one is also correct: I'll try it first, and if I can't handle it, I'll reach ou...

meaning idioms jargon business-language

Carlo_R.

Good night! See the elu blog in your dreams. @Matt

JSBձոգչ

i mean, seriously, this did not deserve 17 upvotes

but, of course, it was multicollidered

silly multicollider

Mitch

@KitFox: The OED says, re:

0

A: Which is the correct past tense of "spin": "span" or "spun"?

Span was a Medieval term for birthing and raising up children.

Carlo_R.

@JSB +1 (now 18)

Mitch

10:11 PM

The OED says:
span, v.3
Etymology: repr. Old English spanan , = Old Saxon and Old High German spanan Obs.—1

trans. To allure, entice, or draw away (a person).
a1250 Owl & Nightingale 1490 To mysdo one gode manne & his ibedde from him spanne.

which is so obviously a euphemism for 'birthing'

@JSBձոգչ Congratulations. I don't think you get anything other than seeing the odometer roll over.

Cerberus

Dutch has spon as the past form of spin.

But it only means birthing, not raising—as in the activity carried out by birthers.

Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories

Conspiracy theories about the citizenship of Barack Obama assert that Barack Obama is not a natural-born citizen of the United States and consequently, under Article Two of the U.S. Constitution, is ineligible to be President of the United States. Some of these theories allege that Obama's published birth certificate is a forgery—that his actual birthplace is not Hawaii but Kenya. Other theories allege that Obama became a citizen of Indonesia in childhood, thereby losing his U.S. citizenship. Still others claim that Obama was born a dual citizen (British and American) and that such du...

Mitch

@Cerberus Ha Ha! I was just being proactively chaotic. So really, there is some evidence that the germanic /sp?n/ is connected with birth or child rearing?

Cerberus

I was obviously joking, but, no, I have no idea, and I don't think there is a connection.

Mitch

oh wait...what?

No I can make fun but everyone else has to be serious! So that I can make fun!

so much fun!

Cerberus

OMG you're the funniest.

Mitch

10:18 PM

see? Fun fun fun!

Cerberus

I think the modern English meaning is probably close to the PG root.

Mitch

Do you know what fun stands for F.U.N?

Cerberus

Because it is long dead in Dutch.

user19161

@JSBձոգչ Well done JSB!!!

JSBձոգչ

thanks @Will @Mitch

Mitch

10:19 PM

Huh. /sp/ words are so germanic (as opposed to romance), I would expect Dutch to have it.

Cerberus

Spinnen exclusively means to create threads.

user19161

Guys, I hope to reach 25k this year...

Mitch

@Cerberus well...that's cognate pretty closely enough. cause that's one of its english meanings.

Cerberus

@Mitch The original sense of "rotating" is dead, not the word itself.

Mitch

@WillHunting serial upvotes Jasper

Cerberus

10:20 PM

@Mitch Yes, as I said, that is all we have left, and the sense "rotate" must be far older than "create threads".

Mitch

flagged for illegitimate voting practices

expelled

user19161

I would be the first to be expelled!

Cerberus

Why do I hear soft pops when you post a line in italics?

Do it again.

let me test

Hmm nothing.

Perhaps there was no correlation.

Mitch

@Cerberus not necessarily. I read a proto indo-european thing that had all sorts of theories that most of the really good roots come from technological practices, e.g. creating cloth from wool. So wool spinning may have come before spinning like a top.

but that was a bit farfetched I must admit.

JSBձոգչ

no, it sounds reasonably enough to me

the direction of derivation for words like that is often surprising

Cerberus

10:23 PM

@Mitch Hmm I suppose it is possible.

Mitch

@WillHunting No it is I who must be expelled. It was my actinos that led us down this roa, and I must take full responsibility.

Though I'll secretly blame you.

Cerberus

We do have spannen, which means to tighten something flexible by pulling at the end/edges.

So that could be related to creating threads, but not to rotation.

Oh, and cats also spin.

Mitch

@JSBձոգչ there was something about using twigs intertwined with parallel longer sticks to make 'wattling' (a kind of fence or wall) and the word for that pattern became something very basic like...

Cerberus

Pur.

Mitch

@Cerberus cats do not spin. they lie a lot, but spinning isn't their thing.

user19161

10:25 PM

I just checked. How come no upvotes? lol

Mitch

dogs will turn three times before laying down. cats consider that beneath them.

Cerberus

A spider is a spin. I presume the English word once meant spinster, someone who spins yarn.

@Mitch They do here!

Mitch

@WillHunting wait for it.

Cerberus

Oh, wait. A spinning wheel looks much like a spider web!

So naming a spider/spin after the creating of threads makes sense.

user19161

@Mitch HAHAHAHA

Cerberus

10:27 PM

It does sort of prove that the sense of creating threads is very old.

Okay, enough speculation. Now I'm looking it up.

Mitch

4

A: Condolence message: "I was sorry" vs. "I am sorry"

Both are correct, but I would use am to suggest you still feel that way in the present as this is a matter of great importance.

user19161

Guys I announce that I have just gotten over 30,000 points on SE!

Mitch

I read this and disagreed. Then I read the answer. No one says by itself "I waas sorry" that's just weird. But for the OP's question, you are right.

user19161

That is certainly over 9,000!

Mitch

@WillHunting So you're announcing things contrary to reality? That's cool, just wanted to check though.

user19161

10:29 PM

@Mitch No, it's true. I have 3 accounts. If you add them up, you get over 30k.

JSBձոգչ

@WillHunting OMG CHEATING

Mitch

Oh that does not count where I'm counting. Here it's 23.6K

Cerberus

> Verwant met spannen en verder met: Grieks pénesthai ‘zich inspannen’; Litouws pìnti ‘vlechten’, sp[eogonacute]sti ‘spannen, een valstrik leggen’; Oudkerkslavisch pęti ‘spannen’ (Pools piąć); Armeens hanum ‘weven, naaien’; < pie. *(s)pen-w-, *(s)pon-w-, *(s)pn-w- ‘trekken, spannen’.

Mitch

Yeah. Cheater.

5

A: Adverb of "gullible"

Gullibly is indeed the adverb form of gullible.

user19161

My announcement was "on SE". I did not say "on ELU". QED.

Mitch

10:31 PM

"You should know better". A GR should not be answered as an answer but as a comment. I upped it anyway.

user19161

Well, the closed ones might be deleted anytime.

Mitch

@WillHunting moving the goal posts...in my mind.

12 mins ago, by Will Hunting

Guys, I hope to reach 25k this year...

I don't think so!

Cerberus

Okay, so spin and span are related, and both meant something like span in the olden days, i.e. in Proto-Indo-European.

user19161

I am prepared for rep to drop by a few hundred when things get deleted.

Mitch

I'm stopping for now so I don't get yelled at by people in authority. gives me the shakes.

user19161

10:35 PM

I am the master upvoter and downvoter here. I know how to do it the right way. LOL

Mitch

@Cerberus 'spun' is only for clothes, or for gold in fairy tales. Maybe also cotton candy.

user19161

I think @mitch can get 20k this year definitely...

Mitch

@WillHunting I'm going to make exactly the same promise as you. If I make it I'm going to stop.

Or rather I'm going to claim that I won't care any more.

Cerberus

@Mitch What do you mean?

> Whatever reason companies have for holding off on updating their apps for the iPhone 5, the end result is that the App Store is beginning to feel a bit stale for longtime and new users alike. Imagine being one of the 5 million people who bought an iPhone 5 over its launch weekend in September and being brand new to the platform: how would you feel if half the apps you tried to download weren't made with your device in mind?

user19161

@Mitch Good, just don't take it to 21k, because after that you will have to go for 25k lol

Cerberus

10:37 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How nice for Apple that they never have any fragmentation issues.

Mitch

@Cerberus what did I mean by that? I don't think I said that, or even have the mental capacity to think it.

Cerberus

All right.

user19161

@mitch Check your rep now...

Mitch

@Cerberus past tense of 'to spin' is just not that common, one of those words you learn as a five year old and never use again, like 'gander' for male goose.

@WillHunting Ha HA! stop it!! I think that's called 'collusion' which in the American Financial system is like insider trading which is a terrible crime...if you don't include everybody else in the room!

Cerberus

Why is it not common?

Mitch

10:41 PM

I don't know. Because there's not much use for it?

Cerberus

google.com/…

user19161

@Mitch Haha, I know when to stop, I am the master of such tricks!

Mitch

maybe I'm wrong. "When that woman walked into the room, I spun around so fast a spilled my drink all over her."

Cerberus

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Mitch

so I guess not that uncommon.

Cerberus

10:42 PM

OK.

You silly gander.

Mitch

It's like someone was saying the other day... language classes and instruction tend to emphasize the irregular forms (they are harder to learn), but some of those irregular forms are just obscure and never really ever used.

Examples? I'm sure lots. What do you think I am a walking spout of informatino?

books.google.com/ngrams/…

people don't walk as much anymore.

anyway, spun, gander and fraught are relatively uncommon in comparison to walk talk and drive. (I expected them to flatline so I guess not -terribly- uncommon.

Hi @Carlo_R. , It's late there, right? Have you had dinner yet?

Cerberus

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Carlo_R.

The time here is GMT+1. And I have had the dinner already.

I go to sleep at 2:00 normally. @Mitch

Mitch

@Cerberus hm...that one is compelling. stole sounds very common to me.

@Carlo_R. I only ask because I vaguely remember recent conversation here about the Southern European 'schedule' of a very late dinner ~10pm, and couldn't tell if that was what you do.

Cerberus

@Mitch books.google.com/ngrams/…

Carlo_R.

10:55 PM

Yes, in Italy we have dinner from 19:30 (North Italy) to 22:30 (South Italy).

user19161

@Carlo_R. I think everywhere people have dinner around that time!

Cerberus

We have dinner from 17:30 to um maybe 20:00.

user19161

I eat and sleep whatever time I feel like. QED.

Cerberus

That is, dinner may start at 20:00.

At dinner parties, it will often be even later.

Or holidays.

Carlo_R.

@Will What do you eat in Singapore? I guess, you eat fish often.

Instead, we eat "pasta" cooked in various way.

And some times "scaloppe".

@Will Have you heard David Wallace? I do not hear him from a lot of time.

I think in NZ people eat a lot of fish.

user19161

11:05 PM

@Carlo_R. He does not come to this room half as often as the others.

user19161

@Carlo_R. I only have fish and chicken. Pork and beef are not too good for health.

Carlo_R.

@Will Yes, I agree. In fact Italian people do not eat pork or beef often.

We prefer "pasta".

user19161

I like spaghetti carbonara!

Carlo_R.

Pasta is light and good.

@Will yes, I too.

We say "spaghetti alla carbonara". We use "alla" to mean "done at".

Mitch

@Cerberus people also need to shower a little more then.

Cerberus

11:11 PM

I knew you were going to say that.

Mitch

@Cerberus that sounds very northern European, also what they tend to do in the US.

Cerberus

@Carlo_R. Isn't "alla" short for "alla cuisina" or something?

tchrist

@Cerberus Pay him no heed.

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah, it is not exactly comme il faut to eat early; 19:30 is the earliest acceptable time.

Mitch

@Carlo_R. how about dried meat...salsiccia, like prosciutto or mortadella or...(trying to think of names of italian sausages)

Cerberus

11:14 PM

Salami?

Mitch

@Cerberus what? you just said you eat starting 17:30 to maybe 20:00. but 19:30 is the earliest now?

@Cerberus Oh. Yeah. Duh.

and those are almost all pork.

Cerberus

@Mitch Not I, but people here.

MετάEd

@Cerberus Salami I like 'em. I like 'em salami.

Cerberus

We all do.

Mitch

@Cerberus oh.

@MετάEd Is that how you say it?

Cerberus

11:16 PM

@MετάEd Except that our eastern brethren must eat them in secret.

Mitch

It's not halal.

Cerberus

And, yes, I like to use brethren that way.

MετάEd

@Mitch It's not El Al either.

Mitch

jinx...sort of.

Cerberus

Before you comment on my plural.

MετάEd

11:17 PM

@Cerberus Perish the thought.

Mitch

@Cerberus bettern 'sistern'.

Cerberus

@MετάEd I said don't!

@Mitch Cistern?

Mitch

plural of sister...sistern.

Cerberus

Or, wait, was I supposed to perish the thought of brethren, or of your comment?

MετάEd

@Cerberus Perish the thought means I would not dream of doing so.

Cerberus

11:18 PM

@Mitch But I like cistern!

MετάEd

Commenting.

Mitch

@MετάEd that deserves a snappy comeback, but alas.

Cerberus

@MετάEd Yeah, but in a command...

MετάEd

@Mitch Hum a few bars and I'll fake it.

Mitch

@Cerberus a cistern is a big hole in the ground for holding water.

Cerberus

11:18 PM

I usually see perish the thought written as a subjunctive.

MετάEd

@Cerberus It's not a command. It's like "avert!"

Cerberus

Hmm how is that used?

MετάEd

@Cerberus Like this: "Avert!"

Mitch

@MετάEd well played, and with that...sadly I'm out for now. commuting...

Cerberus

I use p.t.t. as in "if your mother should die, perish the thought, our monetary predicament would be solved".

So the way you used it confused me a lil bit, 's all.

@MετάEd Hmm I didn't quite get that, can you do it again?

So I probably inadvertently read your line as a command instead of a subjunctive and was confused.

tchrist

11:24 PM

There is a great deal of hysteria and paranoia in coarse speakers of American English when it comes to strong verbs with a u in their past tense or past participle.

A reasonably complete list of the verbs that have no u in their present tense but which do (or at least, can) have a u in either their past or past participle are: begin, beseech, bestick, bework, bring, dare, drink, fling, ping, ring, seek, shall, shrink, sing, sink, slink, sneak, spin, spring, stick, sting, strike, string, swim, swing, teach, will, and wring.

Many of those strike terror into the tongues of many a native speaker in North America. I cannot account for their insecurity, and I do not share it myself, nor do my family.

In general, strong verbs scare them, and they try to regularize to weak verbs.

But the fear of the letter u is something else.

I said “reasonably” complete, because I’m not counting obsolete or even archaic forms, just current, modern English. That means I’m not counting the archaic wrought for work, or raught for reach.

There are others.

The following abominations are regularly heard by rough speakers: I’ve began, I’ve brang, I’ve brung, I’ve bringed, I’ve drank, I’ve flinged, I’ve rang, I’ve ringed, I’ve shrank, I've sang, I’ve sank, I’ve spinned, I’ve sprang, I’ve stinged, I’ve stringed, I’ve swam, I’ve swimmed.

Notice how sometimes they make it a weak verb, while other times they seem not to know that there are three inflections instead of just two.

@Cerberus Nice subjunctive there, with typical inversion, too. Perish the thought, heaven forbid, come the morrow, come hell or high water, far be it from me, suffice it say, be it ever so humble, win or lose, live or die.

MετάEd

@tchrist I've did that myself.

But always on purpose.

tchrist

11:39 PM

I think this is now usually analysed as a frozen or formulaic subjunctive, in that it is not productive for most speakers. A few writers may use it productively to give things an archaic flavor; I’m not sure.

@MετάEd Fear of u.

MετάEd

laterz

tchrist

bb

Cerberus

@tchrist Hmm there may be a connection between this more or less common inversion with subjunctives in main clauses and the common one with modern conditional indicatives.

Both existed in Proto-Germanic, no doubt.

At least both exist in Dutch.

tchrist

If you are thinking of "Were I so inclined, I would do so", I do not know that that counts as a "conditional indicative".

However, such forms go back to OE, and doubtless beyond.

Cerberus

Right, those aren't indicatives.

tchrist

11:45 PM

Which were you thinking of then?

Cerberus

I actually meant to take the conditional subjunctives as the link between the two phenomena.

I was really thinking of Dutch inverted conditional indicatives.

tchrist

Like this: "If he eats, I eat." ??

Inversion of the indicative in the main clause is usually from adverbial fronting.

Hardly had I done so when the bell rang.

Cerberus

More like have you no money, must you that to your mother ask.

tchrist

Down the street rolled the red ball.

Yes, that was very common in OE.

I have the refs for it somewhere.

Cerberus

@tchrist There may be a connection with the Germanic inversion related to the first constituent of the sentence, yes.

@tchrist Really? With an indicative?

tchrist

11:49 PM

No, subjunctive. Have he no money, he must find some other way to pay.

Be it ready, I shall leave.

We don’t talk that way any more.

"If <subject> <verb>, then ...." ===> "<verb> <subject>, then ...".

It’s interesting that we retain it for the distinctive were form, but little else.

So you use "If he has" not "If he have"?

Oh, we use "Should ..." inversion for "If".

Should you pass this way again, do look me up.

Literary, not conversational.

Mitch

@tchrist: 'beseech'->'besuch'?

tchrist

No, the past and past participle alike are both besought.

Beseeched is (now) regarded as incorrect.

1641 Milton Ch. Discip. ii. Wks. (1851) 59 ― It hath beene more and more propounded, desir’d, and beseech’t.
1803 Miss Porter Thaddeus ii. (1831) 19 ― His majesty··beseeched permission to rest for a moment.
1885 Ruskin Præterita iii. 105, ― I besought leave to pat him [a dog].

1709 Tatler No. 42 ⁋2 ― A Poor Man once a Judge besought, To judge aright his Cause.
1835 Beckford Recoll. 183, ― I beseeched him··to remain quiet.
1844 Brougham Brit. Const. xvi. (1862) 243 ― He besought the King to refuse his consent.
1859 Thackeray Virgin. (1876) 539 ― The wretch··besought him for mercy.

1647 W. Browne Polex. ii. 298, ― I prayed, and with teares besought for an end of our contestations.
1805 Southey Madoc in W. v, ― We now besought for food.

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