English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:01 PM

@MετάEd he did, on the basis that a prequel must be written after the original.

So, "The Phantom Menace" is a prequel to "Star Wars A New Hope" but not to "Attack of the Clones"

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Surely not.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd well, that is the definition in the OED, so for all intense sand porpoises that settles it.

Cerberus

@MετάEd Those people are probably tourists. I figure I must be fairly warm there.

MετάEd

Prequel was coined by analogy to sequel. If sequel means written after, then prequel means written before, and The Hobbit must be a prequel. But if sequel means a work depicting events after, then prequel means depicting events before, and The Hobbit must be a prequel.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Let's scratch that non-word from our vocabularies.

MετάEd

6:06 PM

There. I've run Rings around him logically.

@Cerberus See the prescriptionist.

Cerberus

It's confusing and ugly.

spits on ground

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's a word. It's even in the OED! So I think we'll keep it.

@Cerberus confusing?

Cerberus

People always argue about it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

argue about whether it has to be written after?

Matt Эллен

@MετάEd and if it means neither of those things?

Cerberus

6:08 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So what if it is a word? Cunt is also a word.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

or about what else it might mean?

@Cerberus a perfectly cromulent word

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't know. Could be that.

1 min ago, by Cerberus

It's confusing and ugly.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus but cunt doesn't mean "written after, depicting events before"

Cerberus

Especially for men.

1 min ago, by Cerberus

It's confusing and ugly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Cunts are neither confusing nor ugly!

Matt Эллен

6:09 PM

@Cerberus I don't find cunts confusing or ugly...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

haha

Matt Эллен

jinx!

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I said cunt, not cunts. More is better.

Matt Эллен

lol

MετάEd

@MattЭллен I think that definition is the same as my #2: A sequel means a work depicting events after the original story.

Cerberus

6:09 PM

I mean the word cunt is ugly. The object is confusing.

@MattЭллен Lies!

I always hear both men and women complain.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus you're just a german-o-phobe. You prefer words with latin or greek origins.

Cerberus

About the various areas and parts.

MετάEd

@Cerberus It's a lovely word. It's just not Latinate.

Cerberus

You people are crazy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

we're just into cunts. and prequels.

MετάEd

6:11 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Jinx.

Cerberus

I know cunt is sometimes used like "chap".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd yeah, half an hour later in Newfoundland

MετάEd

@Cerberus As in "that really chaps my ass"?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't need to know your precise location, thank you.

@MετάEd Uhmm...no, as a friend calls another friend "cunt".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus If I were precisely located in a cunt right now, you can be damned sure I wouldn't be typing.

2

Cerberus

6:12 PM

Male friends.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Again, TMI.

MετάEd

@Cerberus Around here them would be fightin' words.

Cerberus

It's probably Bri'ish?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd Maybe it's an in-speak word? Only one cunt can call another cunt a cunt.

Cerberus

I'm sure I have heard that.

MετάEd

How did we get from hobbits to this?

Cerberus

6:13 PM

Ah, it appears to be Australian.

That sounds right.

With my subliminal knowledge.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Gropecunt Lane

Gropecunt Lane () was a street name found in English towns and cities during the Middle Ages, believed to be a reference to the prostitution centred on those areas; it was normal practice for a medieval street name to reflect the street's function or the economic activity taking place within it. Gropecunt, the earliest known use of which is in about 1230, appears to have been derived as a compound of the words grope and cunt. Streets with that name were often in the busiest parts of medieval towns and cities, and at least one appears to have been an important thoroughfare. Although the...

Damn the british had some good street names

> Shite-burn lane

tchrist

@MετάEd That’s wrong.

Cerberus

f-ckingc-nts.com/cunt

tchrist

A prequel is a story written after another story, but whose events take place before it.

Cerberus

This matches my impression of how the word is used.

tchrist

6:18 PM

Although The Lord of the Rings is the sequel to The Hobbit, it is not as though The Hobbit were the prequel to The Lord of the Rings. It was written first, so it cannot be a prequel, nor a sequel either.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

My impression is that while that might have been the original meaning, the "written after" part is being relaxed, so that there is a label for the works in a series that come before some other work in the series.

tchrist

Both prequels and sequels are written afterwards.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 See?

tchrist

We have other words for those other things.

People should learn to use them.

Prelude.

Preamble.

Original.

Earlier tale.

Cerberus

Yes, prelude is perfect.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:19 PM

@Cerberus It isn't confusing though. People may argue about it. But confusing? No. Why should it be confusing? Who cares when it is written?

tchrist

It’s confusing, and stupid, and wrong.

Cerberus

I refer to your discussion here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist How can it possibly be confusing to refer to "The Hobbit" as a prequel? At worst you are mistaken about when it is written. At best, you make no assumptions.

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Are you on drugs?

The morning is not the prequel to the afternoon.

That is confusing and stupid and wrong.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist those are not stories.

tchrist

6:21 PM

►

A prequel is by definition a sequel, but of a more specific variety.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Just because tchrist gets annoyed about something doesn't indicate anything about the wider world. He gets annoyed about a lot of things.

Cerberus

You're just a silly doctrinal prescriptivist who forbids people from making stylistic judgements on words.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist You're in for some disappointment as that definition expands.

tchrist

The Hobbit is not the sequel to The Lord of the Rings. Don’t be daft, man: learn some history.

You can water anything down to mean anything.

Cerberus

Well, I can tell you, I will judge as I like.

tchrist

6:22 PM

Especially if you are stupid and insensitive and unlearnèd and ignorant.

It happens all the time.

That hardly makes it good or right or fit or proper. Merely common.

Zairja

If I write "Zairja the Conqueror" then write "Zairja Conquers More" as a sequel, that doesn't make "ZtC" a prequel. Maybe one day it will, but right now that just confuses me! :|

Cerberus

And anyone who says he doesn't judge is either a hypocrite or incomprehensible.

tchrist

@Zairja Bingo!!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Alright tchrist: I give up. You're the rudest asshole in this chatroom, ever.

tchrist

More ignorance of history, I see.

Guess that means we’re doomed to be on historical auto-repeat.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:24 PM

So from now on, I'm ignoring you.

Cerberus

makes himself scarce

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

and poof! he disappears from the chat room!

tchrist

@MετάEd Mayhap I misread you, and you were just repeating others’ stupidities to illustrate how toopid there were.

[sic].

Zairja

I dunno. I'm amused by the banter. FWIW Wiki does seem to back up tchrist's assertion. Wiki is often at the forefront of language use (and 'abuse'). So I think giving an even more liberal definition to prequel is being too generous to folks who may simply not know how to properly use the word.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus I judge you an incomprehensible hypo!

MετάEd

6:28 PM

Google Ngram Viewer seems broken. "Please try again later."

Zairja

On a different note, should I be concerned that I often can't tell the difference between /f/ /v/ and /θ/ in th-fronting?

MετάEd

And ... we're back.

Zairja

I'm thinking that perhaps it's like the /r/ /l/ phoneme mix-up in some Asian speakers?

Cerberus

@Zairja Example?

@MattЭллен Fine.

Zairja

@Cerberus I can't be bovered to give an example. :b

tchrist

6:34 PM

@MattЭллен Better an incomprehensible hypo than a reprehensible hyper.

Zairja

@tchrist I voted for an irrepressible hypno.

tchrist

is getting s l e e p y

@Zairja I somewhat doubt it.

Cerberus

@Zairja So do you mean you often can't hear the difference in casual/fast speech?

I think that's normal.

tchrist

@Zairja So when someone says /f/ for /θ/ or /v/ for /ð/, you cannot tell whether they voiced it or not? That may not be so rare: consider that whether you pronounce Gandalf with an /f/ at the end or a /v/ is next to impossible for anyone to notice, because of the /l/ holdover.

Germanic languages have a history of voicing not being all that important in certain positions.

I’ve firty-five fings to tell you, and ve first fing is not one of vose ovvers.

Notice "of" is "ov".

Final-f used to be /v/, always.

Zairja

@tchrist That's correct, though not always. It depends on the word and speaker. And, for instance, we'll use "bothered / bovered", I know that "bothered" is meant and I'd spell it as such, but many times they're indistinguishable to my ear.

tchrist

6:42 PM

So you’re remapping bovered to bothered without making conscious effort or even noticing you're doing it?

Did you grow up as or exposed to the working-class of southeast England, or did you pick this up some other way?

Zairja

It seems so. On the other hand, if someone said "laver" instead of "lather" I'd probably boggle a bit. It's only recently I've noticed it (the past few weeks), so I don't have a list of words where the phonemes can be swapped without loss of meaning.

tchrist

Lather is hardly a common word for most of us.

It may be that.

Zairja

@tchrist Fairly sure it's some other way, which is why I find it odd. And I'm wondering if it'll affect how I hear speakers who don't have that "working-class accent".

Robusto

@tchrist Don't get into a lather about that.

Zairja

And as far as I know, it's only on the listening end. My pronunciation seems to clearly preserve the "th".

Robusto

6:45 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You can't know that location with any kind of precision. It's a moving target.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto I can now the location, but it makes it hard to tell how fast I'm moving.

tchrist

tries to think of minimal pairs

This is oddly difficult.

Zairja

Anyone here know how to discharge static accumulated on one's person if no metal is nearby?

tchrist

Water conducts.

But really, go barefoot.

That is easier than a static strap.

vine and thine are a minimal pair for the voiced version.

Cerberus

> :Aakash 2: 1GHz Cortex A8-processor, 512MB werkgeheugen, 4GB flashopslag, 7"-touchscreen, capacitief, multitouch, resolutie 800x480 pixels, vga-webcam, microsd-kaartslot, Android 4.0

€ 50.

That's quite good!

tchrist

6:50 PM

And vale and they’ll.

Cerberus

Cheapest comparable tablet I can find in the market right now is € 94.

Not that I need or want a tablet.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You will likely be disappointed by cheap tablets, unless you have a specific use-case that they are really well-suited to, like ebooks.

Cerberus

Hmm.

But those specs look all right?

tchrist

funk/thunk, fink/think, free/three. The unvoiced ones are easier, because we don’t have so many voiced th as unvoiced.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

They look alright for a phone from 2010

Cerberus

6:53 PM

Heh.

The CPU is probably a bit slow.

And the resolution could have been higher.

Robusto

Hey, what about past tense of grind, meaning to perform a repetitive task laboriously. Dictionary gives ground, but I think we need grinded to draw the distinction. Thoughts?

Cerberus

But otherwise, won't this tablet be fine for the average user?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

seriously that's basically the description of the Nexus S, only stretched up to 7"

Robusto

@Cerberus Do you seriously think of yourself as "the average user"?

tchrist

@Robusto I think I have never heard of grinded.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:54 PM

@Cerberus people demand more from their tablets than they do from their phones. At least, I do.

Cerberus

@Robusto First thought: grinded.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And isn't that fine, for most people?

Robusto

@tchrist No, neither have I. But if you say you ground chem labs, that would mean something different, no?

Cerberus

@Robusto In some ways. But, as I said, I don't need or want a tablet.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto There are other examples of words like that, where a new sense of a word has a regular plural even though the old sense did not.

Cerberus

Of course.

Robusto

6:55 PM

@Cerberus Me either. But something tells me I will be forced to get one eventually.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No, I wouldn't say it is.

Cerberus

@Robusto But why!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So why not?

tchrist

@Robusto What, like in getting grounded?

Robusto

@Cerberus Because I am old and experienced with these things.

@tchrist No, like in grinding chem labs to get them done.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I see people use older phones, and they seem pretty fluid. And the users seem happy enough.

tchrist

6:56 PM

> 6- ground; also weak 6-9 grinded, 7-8 grounded.

Zairja

I think you'd say: The boy grinded on his skateboard instead of The boy ground on his skateboard.

Cerberus

@Robusto So old people must always have the latest gadgets. Noted.

Robusto

@Cerberus If that is what you wish to take away from my comment, go ahead.

Cerberus

I do and I have.

tchrist

Apparently speakers weren’t all that sure, but grind started and stopped as a strong verb, with several excursions along the way.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:57 PM

@Cerberus People only use older phones because they have to, not because they want to. But anyway, any device with such low specs will run today's software and nothing else. And tablet software tends to require more hardware, precisely because tablets tend to have higher-end specs.

tchrist

Grinder.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, my PC is from 2008, and I can't imagine requiring more for daily use. Sure, an SSD and 8 GB of memory would be nice, but would I notice it much? It's super fast already.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So if you plan to buy a cheap tablet and throw it away every year, to get a newer cheap tablet, that might be a workable strategy. But I think you'd be better off getting a good tablet every 2-3 years instead. That way you'll be able to run the latest software at least sometimes.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Software, like what? 3D games? My average user won't play those.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Your PC is hardly stressed by the EL&U chat room. But phones and tablets are nowhere near as mature as PCs are.

@Cerberus what? Why not?

Cerberus

6:59 PM

She just won't.

She's a housewife.

She just wants to browse the web.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Lots of housewives play games.

Cerberus

Not mine.

tchrist

1576 Baker Jewell of Health 101 ― Lyme not quenched or slaked, joyned with the whites of egges, and grinded on a marble stone.
1624 Heywood Gunaik. v. 255 ― There was meale that morning to be fetcht from the mill, which was grinded by that time.
1625 Bacon Ess., Usury (Arb.) 545 ― That the Tooth of Usurie be grinded, that it bite not too much.
1640 Fuller Joseph’s Coat 1 Cor. xi. 24 (1867) 58 ― All His bones were broken, that is, contrited and grinded with grief and sorrow.
1654 Jer. Taylor Real Pres. 39 ― Christs flesh was sensually··to be handled by the Priests hands, to be broken and gri…

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…