English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

jlliagre

00:03

1 hour ago, by jlliagre

@Robusto And has a date mismatch. Spoiler

Cerberus

Can I hover over the spoiler?

jlliagre

Yes.

That's for #4.

Cerberus

OK.

@jlliagre Right, I thought the same thing.

OK I think I have found 5.

The city.

Maybe I can find the exact spot.

That was probably moved since then, so unlikely.

I'll pick the centre even though it can't be there.

It turns out the spot is still where it was then. Oh, well.

Too bad I got the year so wrong.

#WhenTaken #352 (13.02.2025)

I scored 765/1000🏅

1️⃣📍494 km - 🗓️9 yrs - 🥈172/200
2️⃣📍8.1K km - 🗓️2 yrs - 🥉106/200
3️⃣📍20.4 m - 🗓️0 yrs - 🥇200/200
4️⃣📍1.8K km - 🗓️21 yrs - 🥉105/200
5️⃣📍10.0 km - 🗓️11 yrs - 🥇182/200

https://whentaken.com

This one was pretty fun.

@jlliagre Though I felt that 1 and 4 were kind of unguessable.

CowperKettle

00:19

Edward Abbey - Desert Solitaire - Paul Shay Audiobook

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Edward Abbey

Edward Paul Abbey (January 29, 1927 – March 14, 1989) was an American author and essayist noted for his advocacy of environmental issues, criticism of public land policies, and anarchist political views. His best-known works include the novel The Monkey Wrench Gang, which has been cited as an inspiration by radical environmental groups, and the non-fiction work Desert Solitaire. == Early life and education == Abbey was born in Indiana, Pennsylvania on January 29, 1927, to Mildred Postlewait and Paul Revere Abbey. Mildred was a schoolteacher and a church organist, and gave Abbey an appreciation...

Cerberus

@CowperKettle That is pretty cute.

tchrist

00:35

@Mitch No, it does not work that way. At all A given typeface specifies any number of glyphs, but there is absolutely not a one-t-one correspondence with Unicode code points, let alone all possible Unicode code points. Rather, there is a many-to-many correspondence between glyphs and certain code points, all typically in the same script.

You can have a dozen different glyphs for a particular code point, and you can also have a variety of different glyphs that map to pairs, triples, etc of code points under what you might call ligature rules.

But in any case, all typefaces that you are apt to use for creating English text with will cover some subset (whether proper or otherwise) of possible Script=Latin code points. That doesn't mean that typeface will have glyphs for Greek or Cyrillic, let alone Gothic.

The reason you need more than one glyph per letter is they aren't always used in the same way.

Think of Gutenberg!

Think about how many distinct glyphs he used — sorts in the preferred term of art — compared with how many distinct letters he needed to typeset the Bible.

He needed many variations for a given letter, of course.

I don't mean multiple duplicates.

They looked different.

Gutenberg did not use 26 but rather 290 different glyphs – in one face and one size, in an unaccented script – to set his 42-line Bible.

GratefulDisciple

@tchrist Makes me want to research on how music was typeset in 18th century, i.e. after notation is modernized. Is it still using movable type (see the first music book printed using movable type, 1501)? In Gutenberg era, music notation was a lot simpler.

tchrist

@GratefulDisciple No, it used engravers for the plates. Imagine the costs!

> This process involved engraving staves, notes and text directly onto a plate, which was then inked and printed onto paper. It gave extremely high quality results, which is why some music publishers, like the venerable G. Henle Verlag, continued to engrave scores by hand right up to the turn of the millennium.

Cerberus

00:50

Why have they stopped?

Or was that text written in 1999?

tchrist

@Cerberus No, in 2020: pixartprinting.co.uk/blog/printing-musical-scores

Also, don't pronounce staves with the FACE vowel. It has the same vowel as its singular does, staff.

The other pronunciation is alas, just a spelling pronunciation.

Cerberus

Interesting.

GratefulDisciple

@tchrist Thanks for the article. Haven't read it yet, but looking at the pictures, wow, I didn't realize engraving is such a hammer-and-nail task! What if you make a mistake.

tchrist

@Cerberus You're a fast reader! :)

@GratefulDisciple That's why this is a skilled craft.

Cerberus

Yeah. I read all of two chat messages in ten seconds.

tchrist

00:55

I thought you were referring to the article's contents.

Cerberus

Alas, no.

Just about the pronunciation.

tchrist

Happy upcoming birthday.

Cerberus

Oh, that.

How do you remember these things, calendar?

tchrist

Hell no!

I know my own birthday, is all.

For which I need no calendar to recall.

Cerberus

Wait.

When was that?

tchrist

00:57

Today.

Cerberus

Ohh.

tchrist

Yours is about six days later.

Cerberus

Happy birthday!

tchrist

Thanks. It feels weird.

jlliagre

Bon anniversaire !

Cerberus

00:57

So I am still in time for you?

Why weird?

tchrist

Of course, it still lacks two minutes of six in the evening.

Weird, because we do not imagine ourselves as old. Ever.

Cerberus

True.

And we never need do so.

tchrist

Our internal perception lags behind our calendar age, and the distance increases over time.

Cerberus

Yeah.

GratefulDisciple

@tchrist That blog article is just a teaser to this website: musicprintinghistory.org that deserves a detailed read.

Cerberus

00:59

Perhaps in some ways it is ahead when we are very young.

tchrist

Only in that adolescents think they're actually adults before they are so.

Cerberus

Yes.

tchrist

So 12 to 24 year olds think they're grown up but they are not yet adults.

Cerberus

And young children think they can play the adult and be allowed the same things.

tchrist

Young ones have much to learn.

Cerberus

01:00

Yesterday, one of my pupils thought I was 20.

The younger people are, they worse they are at guessing ages, perhaps?

tchrist

A young one, eh?

Yes.

That's part of it.

Cerberus

And people just tend to guess closer to their own age.

He is about 15.

tchrist

There is also a certain myopic viewpoint on relative ages.

@jlliagre Merci

GratefulDisciple

@tchrist Happy Birthday! Or as Indonesians say it: "Selamat ulang tahun" (lit. "good repeat year"). "selamat" is often used in greetings, so like the "good" in "good morning"

tchrist

Thank you.

Cerberus

01:03

@tchrist How do you mean?

@GratefulDisciple Is selamat related to salam?

tchrist

@Cerberus The young disregard those who are outside their own age class.

Cerberus

As in, do not approach in a loose group?

tchrist

And sometimes, less often but sometimes, this is reciprocated.

@Cerberus Do not associate with, do not talk to, have no interest in anything that person could possibly say to them, have no interest in relating anything to them, believe that person could never possibly have anything whatsoever in common with them, consider them too much an annoyance to talk to.

Remember that the truly young, people younger than you like your pupil and often twice his age, continue to pretend in their own hearts they are immortal and unchanging. They abhor being reminded of how much of a self-lie that is.

Cerberus

@tchrist I suppose this exists. But lots of other young people can be quite enthusiastic about their elders, expounding on their own young theories and commenting interestedly on the other person's.

tchrist

That peaks at age 19, at least in boys, when they believe they know everything in the world. It takes a lifetime to be disabused of that delusion.

It's still there in college students in their 20s.

Robusto

01:10

@Mitch Yes, of course. 和 (wa) actually means "harmony" which the Japanese use as a descriptor of Japanese society, and 牛 (gyu) means, simply, "beef."

tchrist

@Cerberus But they would have no interest in any artist who were not their age-peer.

Cerberus

@tchrist Well, those boys will also say, "oh, really, wow that is an eye-opener, thanks for the interesting conversation".

So it depends.

@tchrist I'm not entirely sure about that. I praesume you mean pop music: today's youngsters also listen to music from the 90s with nostalgia.

tchrist

There would see no reason to care about any artistic output of someone twice or thrice their age. It is a curious phenomenon.

Cerberus

Some would.

tchrist

@Cerberus Or worse.

Cerberus

01:14

Others wouldn't.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Not sure about the etymology, but "salam" seems related to Hebrew word "shalom" that also got used in everyday context, replacing the English single word "Greeting!" or "Peace!". But for most kinds of well-saying involving another word you would almost always use "selamat". "Selamat Natal" is Merry Christmas, "Selamat makan" is "let's eat", "Selamat tidur" is "have a good night sleep", "Selamat jalan" is "safe trip". "Selamat" on its own means "safe".

tchrist

Maybe they loathe dead-people music because it's a memento mori, just like their elders are.

Cerberus

> From Malay selamat, from Arabic سَلَامَات (salāmāt), plural of سَلَام (salām).

tchrist

@Cerberus Yes, not all of them are shallow and insipid. But many are.

Cerberus

Latin salvus also means something like "healthy, safe", and modern Salute! means "Health!".

It is an interesting coïncidence how both the Romance and the Syriac-Arabic languages have a very common sal- word meaning "health" used for greeting.

GratefulDisciple

01:22

Example of a typical Indonesian language birthday card. The subtext universally contains "semoga panjang umur dan sehat selalu" (lit. wishing long age and healthy always) to which people add more well wishes.

Cerberus

Nostratic languages

Nostratic is a hypothetical language macrofamily including many of the language families of northern Eurasia first proposed in 1903. Though a historically important proposal, it is now generally considered a fringe theory. Its exact composition varies based on proponent; it typically includes the Kartvelian, Indo-European and Uralic languages; some languages from the similarly controversial Altaic family; the Afroasiatic languages; as well as the Dravidian languages (sometimes also Elamo-Dravidian). The Nostratic hypothesis originates with Holger Pedersen in the early 20th century. The name...

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Yes, maybe that's the connection, and when Moslems came to Malay, they imported the word.

Cerberus

Connection between what and what?

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus between the "sal-" word meaning "health" used for greeting, and how in Arabic salamat has the same prefix?

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple I quoted the etymology from Wiktionary: do you doubt it?

> However, most agree that the Afroasiatic homeland was located somewhere in northeastern Africa, with specific proposals including the Horn of Africa, Egypt, and the eastern Sahara. A significant minority of scholars argues for an origin in the Levant. The reconstructed timelines of when Proto-Afroasiatic was spoken vary extensively, with dates ranging from 18,000 BC to 8,000 BC. Even the latest plausible dating makes Afroasiatic the oldest language family accepted by contemporary linguists.

GratefulDisciple

01:27

When someone comes to your house, a Moslem person would say "As salaam alaikum" which means "peace be unto you" and you would respond "Wa alaikum salaam" which means "and unto you, peace"

jlliagre

salamalec

Noun: salamalec m (plural salamalecs)

(informal, derogatory, ironic) a show of politeness, deference or flattery which is hypocritical, affected or exaggerated
(archaic) salaam
salamalec n (plural salamalecuri)
salaam

Cerberus

The Afro-Asiatic family of languages.

Its Semitic branch, historical region.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus But the wiktionary doesn't delve into connection to Latin salvus and modern Salute!, the connection you made into the common prefix with Arabic word "salamat" . Also, the notion that salamat is the plural of salam will not occur at all to Indonesians.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple Ah, you meant between the Latin sal- word, not the Arabic salam, I get it.

I suspect that we would know, if the Arabs borrowed it from Latin?

That's why I semi-jocularly referred to the Nostric theory.

Š-L-M

Shin-Lamedh-Mem is a triconsonantal root of many Semitic words (many of which are used as names). The root meaning translates to "whole, safe, intact, unharmed, to go free, without blemish". Its earliest known form is in the name of Shalim, the ancient god of dusk of Ugarit. Derived from this are meanings of "to be safe, secure, at peace", hence "well-being, health" and passively "to be secured, pacified, submitted". Central Semitic Š-L-M Arabic: س-ل-م, S-L-M Maltese: S-L-M Imperial Aramaic: ܫ-ܠ-ܡ, Š-L-M Canaanite: Š-L-M (c.f. Shalem) Hebrew: ש-ל-ם‎, Š-L-M (Paleo-Hebrew 𐤔-𐤋-𐤌; Samaritan Hebrew...

It is probably a coïncidence? The M is not part of the Indo-European root behind Latin salus/salvus (*solh₂- meaning "whole", cf. Greek holos, but surprisingly a connexion to English whole is uncertain).

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Looking at Arabic Wikipedia, my head is spinning with all those linguistics term. But yes, it says "Conversely, Arabic has borrowed some words (mostly nouns) from other languages, including its sister-language Aramaic, Persian, Greek, and Latin and to a lesser extent and more recently from Turkish, English, French, and Italian."

tchrist

01:40

Cerberus

> Buiten het Germaans alleen verwanten in het Balto-Slavisch: Oudkerkslavisch cělŭ ‘geheel’ (Russisch célyj, Tsjechisch celý ‘geheel’) en Oudpruisisch kails ‘heil!’, kailūstitun ‘gezondheid’.

Indien het woord Indo-Europees is, is de klankcorrespondentie echter niet volledig. De Germaanse vormen wijzen op pie. *kh2eilo- of *keh2ilo-, terwijl de Balto-Slavische een laryngaal uitsluiten en wijzen op een wortel pie. *keil-.

Deze formele problemen en de beperkte geografische spreiding kunnen wijzen op een gemeenschappelijke herkomst uit een voor-Indo-Europese substraattaal.

Interesting.

GratefulDisciple

But the Hebrew Shalom is very old (example: Gen 15:15) and very rich, used theologically to mean wholeness / completeness (which includes peace with God), see this short video which noted it's similar to Greek eirene.

Cerberus

German Heil!, meaning "health" and also being used as a greeting, related to English whole, may not be related to Latin salus "health".

tchrist

Which thing seems odder from a plate tectonics point of view: that Arabia and India are part of Asia, or that Europe is not?

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple Yes, the Arabic and Hebrew words are both originally from the Semitic root I quoted earlier, SLM.

GratefulDisciple

01:45

@Cerberus Maybe it's the reverse: Latin got it from a language with that Semitic root.

Cerberus

@tchrist I vote for the Somali plate, in the valleys along whose eastern push against the African plate we originate.

If I am not mistaken?

@GratefulDisciple Latin got it from the Proto-Indo-European root I quoted above.

tchrist

That the lands above Somali plate should not be reckoned African?

Cerberus

I don't think there was any contact between Proto-Indo-European and Semitic/Afro-Asiatic speakers?

tchrist

@Cerberus Westu Théoden hál

Cerberus

No doubt from the Germanic word?

tchrist

01:48

It IS the Germanic word. It's just Old English: Wes þu hal

Cerberus

Delta?

Ah.

Right.

Be(?) thou whole?

tchrist

@Cerberus Like fog comes in on little cat feet.

Cerberus

What is the singular imperative agreeing with thou?

tchrist

@Cerberus Wes for be.

Cerberus

@tchrist Cute.

@tchrist But in modern English?

Still wes?

(In Dutch, the imperative is indeed still wees jij, weest gij, but I don't know the exact relation of those to thou.

tchrist

01:53

No, Old English had both beon and wesan, but today's English is a fusion of both and more. It is wildly suppletive.

Cerberus

So what is the modern imperative agreeing with thou?

tchrist

"Be thou, King, healthy."

Be, like with all persons.

Let us be gone. God be praised. Be not afraid.

Hm.

Let me make sure I'm not making all that up.

Cerberus

OK noted.

tchrist

"Wert thou" may be the imperative. It does come from wes.

> wert ( British English /wəːt/ Listen to pronunciation , /wət/ Listen to pronunciation , U.S. English /wərt/ Listen to pronunciation )
imperative:

Cerberus

Oh, really!

tchrist

02:05

Can't find citations.

Cerberus

I thought that was a past tense.

tchrist

It sounds fine in the past.

Cerberus

But I have no idea.

tchrist

It does not sound fine in the imperative.

There was also a werst.

Cerberus

Oh, yes.

Hmmm.

tchrist

02:08

It's also a past subjunctive.

Not just indicative.

Wiktionary has

> As thou became less common and more highly marked, a special present-subjunctive form beest developed (replacing the regular present subjunctive form be, still used with all other subjects). Additionally, the form wert, previously a past subjunctive form, came to be used as a past indicative as well.

That's why I thought I might be full of it: because I feel like I have heard beest thou.

But that might just be subjunctive inversion in the present, not an imperative.

For if I be, if thou beest, if he be

Just like Wert thou means If thou wert in the past subjunctive: the inversion allows the if to be omitted in both subjunctive tenses.

I don't think there are any English imperatives that are not infinitives.

CowperKettle

The Wordhord: Daily Life in Old English - by Hana Videen [full audiobook]

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It's odd that there's no Wikipedia page about Hana Videen

tchrist

02:32

> “Jargon monoxide” refers to a toxic mix of buzzwords, jargon, and business speak that permeates workplace communication.

Cerberus

03:15

@tchrist I was going to say beest at first, but it seemed like a recent invention.

@tchrist Not even ones belong to thou not you?

CowperKettle

> Their finances drained, they set out on a tandem bicycle that Dan retrofitted for the trek. This is Ethel's journal of their 1908 tramp across the western United States. youtube.com/watch?v=VGuZn19SJCQ

Cerberus

@tchrist I'm glad the word itself isn't a mix of jargon and buzzwords.

Behistun Inscription in Persia ca. 520 BC by Darius the Great

The people are about life size, I think.

Look at all the cuneiform. It is trilingual.

Xanne

05:26

Connections
Puzzle #614
🟩🟦🟪🟩
🟩🟦🟦🟦
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟩🟪🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟪🟪🟪🟪

Cerberus

Connections
Puzzle #614
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟦🟪🟦🟦
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟪🟪🟪🟪

Blue was a bit confusing in that I thought the category was slightly different so one word didn't quite fit in.

Purple is not a category I am a fan of. But I know she does these things.

Xanne

Strands #348
“Will you be my valentine?”
💡🔵💡🔵
🔵🔵🔵🟡
🔵

Wordle 1,336 5/6

⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜🟨🟨
⬜⬜⬜⬜🟩
🟩⬜⬜⬜⬜
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Xanne