English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

00:00

Oh my.

Robusto

I thought @Reg would comment on my addition to Bernie Taupin's lyrics.

tchrist

I just voted on a comment twice -- and got both.

Armie Maupin?

Robusto

How do you do that?

tchrist

Cheated.

It forgot me when it migrated, but kept my vote.

So I voted on it again.

And got both.

People's ideas about grammar often tend to lend themselves to such behavioral phenomena. People's ideas about grammar are, for pretty much everybody in Anglophone systems, received from their English teachers. So be careful about pointing fingers, is all. — John Lawler 23 mins ago

Robusto

Which parts are those? Oh, and pssst! You don't have to subscribe to this site. You can just come and go as you please. — Robusto 10 secs ago

tchrist

00:05

Robusto

At least it makes him laugh. That's something.

tchrist

Bush shaved his head.

RegDwighт

@tchrist by design. I always do that.

Robusto

Bush shaved his bush?

tchrist

cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57595370/…

Robusto

00:06

Is that Bush, Sr.? If so, he's starting to look more like Walter White.

tchrist

Nobody did more to make George Bush Sr. look good than George Bush Jr.

Robusto

Heisenbush.

tchrist

Yes, it is.

RegDwighт

@tchrist he's not even from an English-speaking country...

@Robusto So "around these parts" is Ananasland.

tchrist

@RegDwighт GWB || Lawler?

RegDwighт

00:09

The teacher with 25 years of experience in not being anal.

Robusto

@RegDwighт Oh that is to explain how works it for in world.

tchrist

I was wondering about that.

RegDwighт

Well I answered the anally clenched question.

My job here is done.

Night all.

Oh and speaking of Bush senior, @Rob should really watch that interview.

Robusto

00:28

@RegDwighт The interview with Bush?

Cerberus

01:05

> This afternoon, the House of Representatives narrowly shot down an amendment that would have stopped the NSA from engaging in any warrantless collection of telephone data on a 205-217 vote.

At last some of those people are waking up.

Robusto

01:29

@Cerberus I'd like to see the roll call. Do you have a link?

Cerberus

@Robusto clerk.house.gov/evs/2013/roll412.xml

From here: arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/07/…

Robusto

@Cerberus Well, at least my representative voted the right way.

Fucking Republicans want a police state, though, don't they just?

Cerberus

@Robusto Great.

@Robusto Didn't many Republicans vote for the amendment?

> Opponents came from all political stripes as well. Former House speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), a voice from liberal San Francisco, voted against the amendment, as did Michele Bachmann (R-MN), a favorite of the conservative Tea Party. Current Speaker of the House John Boehner (R-OH) voted no. The House's final roll call shows supporters of the amendment included 94 Republicans and 111 Democrats.

I think comprised/comprise would be better than included, though.

Or were. Or just recast the sentence.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

01:55

@MετάEd I miss doing that to monitors.

Cerberus

> Molecular signals identified that let some organisms regrow lost heads

There is yet hope for you people!

Ethan

Would it be "He is fat sense he never exercises", or "He is fat since he never exercises"

Which spelling of sence/since do I use?

or is it sense?

@Cerberus

which spelling of sense/since/etc do I use?

If I have a proposition A, and then I claim it logically follows from another proposition B, I could say "A sense/since B" , which spelling of sense/sinse do I use?

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

02:20

@Ethan since in both cases.

Ethan

thanks

O0oO0oOO0ooO

Improving English is so exciting

I have never seen anybody who writes "sense" to substitute the proposition "since". However, I have come across several people who speak "since" as "sense".

O0oO0oOO0ooO

02:42

I wonder how much portion of users on Stackexchange can speak 2 languages fluently.

I am definitely not one of them =D... Because I am still improving my English proficiency

Cerberus

0

Q: Why are there no organisms with metal body parts, like weapons, bones, and armour? (Or are there?)

Reading this question, Why are there no wheeled animals?, I wondered why no organisms seem to make use of the tensile and other strengths of metal, as we do in metal tools and constructions. I am obviously not talking about the microscopic uses of metal, as in human blood etc. Why are there no p...

O0oO0oOO0ooO

@Cerberus I heard some women are capable of murdering other living creatures with their gigantic breasts, this actually happened around in Russia if I am correct.

Cerberus

Okay.

Thanks for informing me of your interests.

O0oO0oOO0ooO

No worries.

Cerberus

03:41

> July 10, 2013 - American voters say 55 - 34 percent that Edward Snowden is a whistle-blower, rather than a traitor, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.

> In a massive shift in attitudes, voters say 45 - 40 percent the government's anti-terrorism efforts go too far restricting civil liberties, a reversal from a January 14, 2010, survey by the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University when voters said 63 - 25 percent that such activities didn't go far enough to adequately protect the country.

> "The fact that there is little difference now along party lines about the overall anti- terrorism effort and civil liberties and about Snowden is in itself unusual in a country sharply divided along political lines about almost everything. Moreover, the verdict that Snowden is not a traitor goes against almost the unified view of the nation's political establishment."

quinnipiac.edu/institutes-and-centers/polling-institute/…

O0oO0oOO0ooO

06:22

I found a guy who wants to try and help his country grow though asking a question on Yahoo answers

au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111026190043AApKdeu

RegDwighт

08:46

@Robusto yes, the interview with Walter White.

BESW

09:17

[wanders in] Hi!

Matteo Migliore

Hi! I would ask to the users a question about two website designs and have the votation, is there a free service?

BESW

Afraid I can't help with that question, I'm just in off the street myself.

BESW

09:48

Anybody here read Dickinson or Neruda?

KitFox

11:32

Morning.

BESW

Hi.

KitFox

I recognize you...did you come to Writer's chat sometimes?

BESW

Unlikely.

I answered an RPG.SE question that got migrated here a while back.

I've popped into this chat once or twice but not said much. You may have seen me in rpg.se or scifi.se?

Mitch

I missed the crazy fun time with Ricky and his question about mashed potatoes and paste.

What a jerk.

BESW

[blink]

KitFox

11:42

@BESW could be. I go there infrequently.

Mitch

But his attitude is probably representative. So we have low tolerance here for presumptuous unthought out questions.

KitFox

@Mitch he wasn't a jerk, just wayward. Everyone reacts like that when they don't lurk first.

My boys are awake, so later!

BESW

Hm. That's a rather different approach than rpg.se. Does eng.se have high traffic?

Mitch

@Cerberus You should ask KitFox directly. She'll give an answer like metals when in compounds tend to be too ... disruptive and when together are just too heavy. Bones are made of calcium which is a light element, also metals don't lend themselves to sparse constructions like bone. QED

Matt Эллен

@BESW fairly high

BESW

11:56

Fair enough.

Matt Эллен

currently 7th on the list

BESW

I've noticed that the higher-traffic an SE site is, the less able its community is to accompany new members, and thus those sites require more upfront work by their newest citizens.

Matt Эллен

It's fair to say that we request people put effort in before they ask a question here.

also, we've spun off a whole nother site for people who are just beginning English, so that they have an easier time

BESW

Aye.

Matt Эллен

But I think it was easier to get going when I first joined.

BESW

12:01

rpg.se is much smaller, and we're more able to supply personal accompaniment. I've begun a campaign of adding comments to all first posts that welcome the citizen, point them at the help pages, and invite them to chat when they hit 20+ rep.

We've seen it increase chat population already.

Matt Эллен

nice

BESW

It's less possible to say quantitatively, but I think it's also making people more willing to work on making their questions better rather than just giving up.

Matt Эллен

possibly. sounds likely

BESW

It has the amusing side effect that I regularly have to explain that I'm not a mod.

Matt Эллен

I think we fear that most of the new users that come here are just passing by hoping we can tell them which is the right preposition or, more often, checking their work for errors. They don't care about English, only their initial question. Questions that are helpful in the wider scheme of things are normally welcomed.

BESW

12:06

That's an interesting paradigm.

Scifi.se has a similar one; they're plagued by "Can you identify this story/film I read/saw ten years ago?"

Matt Эллен

I've thought of asking one of those myself :D

BESW

But scifi.se also has the challenge that aside from ID questions, their subject matter is difficult to frame in the usual SE context of "real problems." Questions about science fiction and fantasy stories are almost definitionally idle speculation and curiosity.

Matt Эллен

quite

BESW

It's very interesting to watch, but it leads me to being a fairly quiet citizen in that site.

RegDwighт

@BESW Well, frankly, so are the questions on Skeptics.

BESW

12:10

I think that at the very least it's good to have these sites in order to better learn what is and is not a fit for the SE context.

It's been pretty cool watching rpg.se recently re-examine a lot of SE-standard rules in light of the RPG medium, and seeing what can be altered without losing the site's direction.

Hey, does anybody here read much poetry?

RegDwighт

On Skeptics, you'll ask, "how do we know that we've really been to the Moon", and get the answer "here are actual pictures of the landing site shot by the Hubble telescope". Well, duh. How do I know that that telescope actually exists? How do I know you didn't draw up these pictures five minutes ago in Photoshop? Etc. You get the idea.

They replace one speculation with a different speculation. Except that it's less fun than on SciFi.

BESW

I've been asked to do some kind of talent/performance at a fundraiser tomorrow night, and I'm looking to do a selection of readings. So far I've chosen Canción del jinete (~~Pablo Neruda~~ Garcia Lorca), I started Early - Took my Dog - (Emily Dickinson), and Inalahan (by a local poet).

Matt Эллен

@BESW Not especially. I've been reading this tumblr and the odd other thing that comes my way

tchrist

@BESW I only know the Lorca version.

BESW

...why did I say Pablo Neruda? [face/palm] Yes, Garcia Lorca.

Matt Эллен

12:14

@BESW if @Robusto were here, he could give you some pointers

tchrist

Ah.

RegDwighт

I used to read much poetry, and then I used to write much poetry, and then I used to have the best of both worlds and translate much poetry. But these times are gone.

Robusto

@MattЭллен I'm here. What's the question?

Matt Эллен

3 mins ago, by BESW

Hey, does anybody here read much poetry?

Robusto

Yes. The answer is yes. Next question?

BESW

12:15

Context:

2 mins ago, by BESW

I've been asked to do some kind of talent/performance at a fundraiser tomorrow night, and I'm looking to do a selection of readings. So far I've chosen Canción del jinete (~~Pablo Neruda~~ Garcia Lorca), I started Early - Took my Dog - (Emily Dickinson), and Inalahan (by a local poet).

Question: I'm looking for recommendations on other shortish poems I might add.

I chose the Lorca because it sounds beautiful, and the Dickinson because it defies the conventional perception of her work, and is fun to read dramatically.

Matt Эллен

I always recommend Edward Lear.

Johan Larsson

I liked The Prophet but I don't read much poetry.

BESW

Last time I read The King's Breakfast (AA Milne).

Ooh. Owl and the Pussycat?

Robusto

@BESW Try "The Snow Man" by Wallace Stevens. It will explode people's minds.

Matt Эллен

@BESW Yes! Or The Quangle Wangle's Hat

BESW

12:18

The Jumblies.

Robusto

Or you could try "The Second Coming" by Yeats.

BESW

@Robusto A little bleak, even if I do like it and it would be appropriate.

Jez

finally

i've finished all the core functionality in the system :-)

tchrist

@BESW Which of his two Canciones del Jinete did you choose? The one that starts “Córdoba. / Lejana y sola. /Jaca negra, luna grande, / y aceitunas en mi alforja. / Aunque sepa los caminos, /yo nunca llegaré a Córdoba." or the one that starts “En la luna negra/de los bandoleros,/cantan las espuelas./Caballito negro./¿Dónde llevas tu jinete muerto?”?

Jez

everything left is a long list of nice-to-haves

now i can relax

only took 3 quarters of a year

Robusto

12:19

@BESW Well, the point of poetry is to shake people out of their complacency. If you want to make them comfortable, read them a bedtime story.

BESW

@tchrist I memorized the first one in high school, so that one.

tchrist

Yes, it is haunting.

BESW

@Robusto Disagree. Poetry has many purposes, and can't be pinned into a box like that.

tchrist

But carrying the dead guy is troubling, too.

BESW

Besides which, there are many ways to shake people out of their complacency.

Persepolis's author visited my campus when I was at University.

Robusto

12:21

@BESW I agree about the many purposes, many moods. But poetry that doesn't make you think isn't poetry.

BESW

She said that she knew she could write a very sad book, but realized that being sad doesn't bring people together.

If you can make someone laugh, then they will feel closer to you and be more sympathetic.

So she wrote a humorous graphic novel about growing up as an Iranian woman.

Jez

-5

Q: Why is this site filled with useless, pedantic fussiness?

I am a teacher of English with 25 years experience, with a considerable reputation around these parts I might add. I would never consider subscribing to something as 'exclusive' and anally clenched as the purveyors of this laughable site seem to be...

discussion

hahahaha

BESW

@tchrist I'd do The Cremation of Sam McGee, but again: carrying around a dead guy.

tchrist

Juana la Loca did that. :)

Robusto

@BESW There are many paths to making people think.

BESW

12:24

@Jez I must say, there was a guy on scifi.se who argued against migrating questions to you that were rightly in your purview, because he felt eng.se wouldn't treat them seriously due to their science fiction context.

Robusto

POETRY IS A DESTRUCTIVE FORCE
by Wallace Stevens

That's what misery is,
Nothing to have at heart.
It is to have or nothing.

It is a thing to have,
A lion, an ox in his breast,
To feel it breathing there.

Corazon, stout dog,
Young ox, bow-legged bear,
He tastes its blood, not spit.

He is like a man
In the body of a violent beast.
Its muscles are his own . . .

The lion sleeps in the sun.
Its nose is on its paws.
It can kill a man.

BESW

I'm just not sure it's legitimate to attribute intent to a literary form.

Perhaps one could try to say that a limerick has a particular goal as a format, but poetry?

Robusto

"The function of the poet is to help people live their lives." —Wallace Stevens, The Necessary Angel

Depends on how broadly you define intent.

Jez

So many of Arqade's questions are about Minecraft

BESW

@Robusto I'm directly responding to "the point of poetry is to shake people out of their complacency," and "poetry that doesn't make you think isn't poetry."

Robusto

12:32

@BESW Well, but that's the point of all good writing. If it doesn't make you think, give you new ways of looking at the world, what good is it? You might as well just read "A Visit From St. Nicholas" over and over if you don't believe that.

BESW

These are noble aspirations for poets, should they choose to use the medium in that way. But they are not inherent to the medium, and it smacks of elitism to be able to claim that some things which their creators call poems are not because they do not conform to someone else's standard.

Robusto

@BESW Oh, you've reduced the discussion to name-calling. I am an elitist, therefore my points are not valid. And so it goes.

BESW

I don't mean to say you're an elitist, and I apologize for the implication.

I do mean to say that there is a troubling idea of privilege in declaring "this is" and "this is not."

I am not using "elitist" to invalidate points.

Robusto

Well, for not meaning to say something, you certainly said it. This is a well known rhetorical device known as praeteritio.

BESW

I am using it deliberately to describe why I find them troubling.

Robusto

12:36

You just said what something is. Don't you find that troubling, by your very own definition?

'... there is a troubling idea of privilege in declaring "this is" and "this is not."' Your words. Don't you find that a little self-contradictory?

BESW

I'm trying to present my views for discussion, not win a debate. Thus I use phrases like "the idea of privilege" and "it smacks of elitism," rather than declaring them to be such.

Robusto

Now you won't own up to having opinions, and stating them.

BESW

I am saying "this is what I am seeing," or at least I am trying to.

tchrist

Can’t tapdance on pussytoes.

BESW

....

Robusto

12:38

I find this entirely disingenuous of you.

BESW

When did this turn into a debate?

Robusto

You tell me.

Anyway, I was summoned to this conversation. If you don't like what I have to say, don't listen.

BESW

[blink] Can we step back for a moment?

Robusto

I have to commute. Good luck with your problem.

BESW

I want to hear your ideas and have a conversation. Insight can arise from clashes of opinion, but I need some assumption of good faith.

I apologized and tried to restate my case. Clearly I failed. I apologize again, and have a good commute.

tchrist

12:42

Mordred in secret   mirthless watched them
betwixt hate and envy,   hope and torment.
Thus was bred the evil,   and the black shadow
o’er the courts of Arthur   as a cloud growing
dimmed the daylight   darkling slowly.

tchrist

12:54

Does Gawain rhyme with Duane or with the first part of now and then?

BESW

Neither, apparently.

tchrist

The first one he said sounded like the first part of now and then. Like gown with a bit of extra syllable.

BESW

Ah, gotcha.

tchrist

/ˈgɑwɪn, ˈgɔ-/

BESW

...this may be a dialectic issue. I'm probably nonstandard compared to just about any common accent.

tchrist

12:58

Go on!

BESW

Hm?

tchrist

Sounds like gown. :)

Kinda.

I grew up saying it wrong. Sigh.

It was Sir Ga-WAYNE and the Green Knight when I was a kit.

Little did I know. :(

BESW

Naturally.

I think most of us hit that kind of realization at some point.

Many words not used in common speech I first ran into while reading when rather young.

tchrist

About that word in particular, or in general?

BESW

In general.

tchrist

13:00

Trying to think of others for me.

BESW

Epiphany got an accent on the first syllable until I was in high school.

tchrist

Oh yes, the 4–5 syllable words often had wandering stress.

inNOVative

BESW

And of course, listening to the BBC we learn that we've been pronouncing nearly everything "wrong."

tchrist

Something like that.

BESW

I'm born and raised on a very multicultural, multilingual island. So "right" and "wrong" really never come into it.

tchrist

13:03

I can’t abide shedule, but conTROVersy can slip out if you care to put on airs. Or the radio.

BESW

(Unless you're trying to determine which orthography to use for the local language. Then you're in trouble.)

I slip in and out of accents depending on what's around me, but my "default" speaking style is often considered "unaccented" or "British."

(It's not British.)

Then again, I was once told that my speech is entirely unintelligible.

Jez

13:24

heh, i always pronounced it ga-wayne too

that sounds nicer for some reason

Matt Эллен

I think 99% of people who pronounce it will say ga wayne. I'm declaring the old pronunciation dead.

RegDwighт

So. Um. Am I really the only person here to agree with that Java D guy how horrible our site name is?

MετάEd

So how do you pronounce "Gaheris" and "Agravaine"

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт what Java D guy?

RegDwighт

-3

Q: English language and usage?

English Language & Usage OR English Language & its Usage I think its should be there.. What do you think masters of English language?

discussion

As written, it parses as “English Language and English Usage,” which sounds fine. — Bradd Szonye Jul 17 at 11:01

@Bradd actually it does not sound fine to me. As a matter of public record, it never did. I'm with the OP on this one. It sounds like "Car audio and installation". It is awful, as you do not install a car, you install the car audio. Or "Human beings and behavior". Or "Star Trek and episodes". Well, you get the idea. The and implies that it connects two things on the same level, while it quite clearly does not. I will refrain from using strong language here, but it is sloppy to say the least. — RegDwighт 5 mins ago

Matt Эллен

13:30

It sounds fine to me.

RegDwighт

You said that.

Matt Эллен

good

RegDwighт

Whence my question.

Does "Human beings and behavior" sound good to you, too?

BESW

What does Fowler say? He always has Opinions.

RegDwighт

I wouldn't know where to begin to search for this. Under conjunctions?

Matt Эллен

13:32

@RegDwighт well, that's a different thing to me

BESW

I think that "2. Bastard Enumeration" under the "and" entry is the right one. Reading.

Matt Эллен

EL&U is ingrained.

BESW

(For the record, my copy is 50 years old.)

Matt Эллен

"Human mind and behaviour" sounds just fine.

or "Car drivers and passengers"

RegDwighт

@MattЭллен exactly.

Precisely right.

Matt Эллен

13:35

"Cow milk and cheese"

RegDwighт

Because they are on the same level.

@MattЭллен now try "Cow milk and pastheurization".

BESW

That entry was enlightening but not helpful. Looking up "enumeration."

...I love Fowler's snark, but sometimes he's useless.

[pokes Strunk & White]

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт I see what you're getting at, but usage doesn't cause me that problem.

RegDwighт

The thing is, in "English usage", the English part already means "English language". So there is no point in specifying it in the first part. It should either be "English and usage" or "English language and English-language usage".

Otherwise you are connecting ["English" where we do not know what it refers to] [so we specify "language"] and ["English" where it all of a sudden does specifically mean "English language"] [usage].

Matt Эллен

English (language and usage) works for me.

RegDwighт

13:40

Yeah, but why?

BESW

How very mathematical.

RegDwighт

What is the "language" part doing there? It's redundant.

What else could "English" possibly mean?

Matt Эллен

people

BESW

English disambiguation page.

RegDwighт

@MattЭллен Precisely.

So you are saying that "English (language and usage)" means "(English language or people) (language and usage)".

Which of course is nonsense.

Matt Эллен

13:41

I don't have an explanation for why it doesn't bother me.

RegDwighт

Yeah I understand.

BESW

Ummm. If I can throw in my own two cents, the issue should be clarity, not concision.

Concision is lovely and elegant, but only when it does not impede clarity.

RegDwighт

So in any case you all came down on that poor OP too damn hard.

BESW

Although "English" commonly refers to "language," it is a courtesy to those scrolling through a list or glancing at the site if we make that entirely clear.

Matt Эллен

I didn't think I was being harsh. I was trying to say "hey man, don't worry about it."

BESW

13:44

To put it another way: "Language" is the subject of the site. "English" is a modifier narrowing the scope of language the site addresses.

RegDwighт

Oh I do not mean anyone in particular.

I'm just saying, "Car drivers and insurance" only makes sense if what you mean is "Car drivers and car insurance", but not if you're aiming at "Car drivers and car-driver insurance".

BESW

To use the modifier with an implied subject is technically correct but not... I'm not sure what the word is. User-friendly?

I'm not going to say I think I know what the title should be, but I DO think that whatever it is, it should include the word "language."

RegDwighт

@BESW that is not my point. My point is if you imply it, imply it at all times; if you specify it, specify it in both cases. But do not mix and match on a whim.

BESW

@RegDwighт If those are the only two possible titles for the site, then I would support the repetitive but clear choice.

I suspect there's an alternative title which is both clear and concise while still being less likely to trigger the pedant in us, but I don't know what it might be.

RegDwighт

Well it doesn't have to have anything to do with the current title. Gaming became Arqade.

Matt Эллен

13:47

English Usage and Language

RegDwighт

You, sir, are very funny.

Matt Эллен

:D

RegDwighт

Seriously though, does that one sound more off to you?

Matt Эллен

Yes

RegDwighт

Thank Heavens.

BESW

13:49

English as She is Wrote comes to mind.

RegDwighт

Spoke.

Unless there was a sequel.

Or, @tchrist, unless there was a prequel.

Robusto

@tchrist Perhaps the -ain ending simply follows other patterns for unstressed final syllables, as in captain, chamberlain, porcelain, etc. When it comes after a vowel sequence, as in Gawain, it may get almost entirely lost.

tchrist

14:17

@RegDwighт Speech is primary.

@Robusto Apparently. I only became aware of this when talking with somebody who had been a reader (and/or subeditor?) for the OED. He had the “Gowin” pronunciation.

Robusto

FWIW, I pronounced it "ga-WAYNE" when I read it in high school too. My teacher pronounced it that way, too.

tchrist

@RegDwighт I still like the Arçade spelling for that SE site, kind like with Arsenal soccer team. It fits.

Robusto

But that's what you get when you read a lot and don't hear things spoken. When I was a young child, for a long time I read misled as majzəld.

Obviously my teacher had never heard it spoken by someone who knew the difference.

tchrist

I once relegated mishit to profanity.

Or at least to vulgarity.

Robusto

Yeah, that's an easy one to do.

BESW

14:26

There are generations here who pronounce unusual words with a Midwestern US accent, because that's where the teachers of that time mostly came from, for a variety of reasons.

tchrist

@BESW I have no idea what that means.

Broadcasters for decades were sent to the Chicago–Milwaukee area to lose their regional accents on the air.

Robusto

But by the time I learned how acclimated was originally pronounced, the "wrong" pronunciation was the norm.

tchrist

What words are you thinking of?

It was the closest thing to General American that you could get, and for a very long time.

BESW

Any word that you'd learn in a classroom and not use regularly outside it.

tchrist

I don’t know any such words.

Well, maybe medical terms.

You wouldn’t believe how shocked I was by the pronunciation of flax.

BESW

14:28

Because I had teachers from the Philippines and... I'm not sure where... I learned about the Table of the Elephants and the PITH-iggorean Theorem.

Robusto

Still, I resist the planing-off of nuance, especially in meaning, just because popular ignorance rules: noisome is not a synonym for noisy, and enormity isn't about size. draws line in sand

tchrist

I always said lee-noom, but the botanists I know say *lye-nuhm".

Robusto

I've even seen noisome used incorrectly in the pages of The New Yorker, which is famed for its fussiness about language.

BESW

I once attended a comparative religions class which taught me about Muslim EYE-mams.

Robusto

@tchrist So how would you pronounce flaccid?

BESW

14:31

With a giggle?

Robusto

And the mispronunciation of short-lived is my particular bête noire.

tchrist

@BESW That’s impossible. That’s even worse than anteproparoxitonic stress! I have no idea what the word for pentasyllabics stressed on the first of five syllables is.

@Robusto Not like accidental, eh? :)

BESW

(While running a D&D campaign, I had to abandon the perfectly appropriate word taint and instead use stain to describe the fel influence of Lovecraftian horrors on the characters, because the players couldn't take "taint" seriously.)

Robusto

Nor accelerate, accessible or many others.

tchrist

@BESW Stain is correct historically.

BESW

14:34

@tchrist Do tell.

tchrist

> Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.

BESW

Citation?

tchrist

> But you have not forsaken your companions, and the least reward that you shall have is that the memory of Lothlórien shall remain ever clear and unstained in your heart, and shall neither fade nor grow stale.

> Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work, and where they abode there mirth also dwelt and all things were unstained by the griefs of time.

BESW

...I'm not sure Lord of the Rings is "historical" in the context of Mythos, but interesting that he used the word that way.

tchrist

> Galadriel! Galadriel! Clear is the water of your well; / White is the star in your white hand; / Unmarred, unstained is leaf and land / In Dwimordene, in Lórien / More fair than thoughts of Mortal Men.

'Build not thy hopes so high, O Bauglir --
I am no tool for thy evil treasons;
torment were sweeter than a traitor's stain.'

BESW

14:40

Being Tolkien, though, it's likely that he didn't arrive at that word choice in a vacuum.

I wonder if an inspirational source for it could be found with anything approaching not-just-guessing.

Robusto

Nobody arrives at word choice in a vacuum.

Matt Эллен

yeah. too much dust

tchrist

> OED stain 1. The action of staining; pollution, disgrace.

Jez

Human

Humans (variously Homo sapiens and Homo sapiens sapiens) are primates of the family Hominidae, and the only species of the genus Homo. Humans are distinguished from other primates by their bipedal locomotion, and especially by their relatively larger brain with its particularly well developed neocortex, prefrontal cortex and temporal lobes, which enable high levels of abstract reasoning, language, problem solving, and culture through social learning. Humans use tools to a much higher degree than any other animal, and are the only extant species known to build fires and cook their food...

tchrist

1563 Googe Cupido Eglogs etc. (Arb.) 114 - Vnhappy wretche that wolde Haue forced the Ladye of this forte with stayne of Royaltie To haue consented to his wyll in fylthye Lecherye.
1587 Greene Euphues Wks. (Grosart) VI. 174 - The staine of the one did ad a disgrace to the glorie of the other.
1607 Shaks. Timon v. i. 176 - Giuing our holy Virgins to the staine Of contumelious, beastly..warre.

Jez

14:43

I love how we are rated "least concern" for conservation status

tchrist

> OED stain v. 5 fig. a. To defile or corrupt morally; to taint with guilt or vice.

BESW

@Robusto I mean specifically that a great deal of Tolkien's worldbuilding was taken directly from previously existing mythologies and lores, rather than simply generically inspired by such things.

tchrist

1446 Lydg. Nightingale P. i. 287 - Moch peple viciously Were in this age..thorgh theire vice destreied sore & steyned.
1570 Googe Pop. Kingd. i. 8 b, - Lest that he shoulde be periurde calde, and staynde with heresie.
1657 Attest. Innocency Zach. Crofton 14 - A Master of a family this twelve year, or thereabouts, never stained with the least disorder or incivility.
1777 W. Cameron in Sc. Paraphr. xvii. vii, - Though your guilty souls are stain’d with sins of crimson dye.
1847 Yeowell Anc. Brit. Ch. x. 104 - The British kings were stained with every vice.

I think that tells the tale.

But still there is more.

5b. To impair the beauty or excellence of. Obs.

1575-85 Abp. Sandys Serm. xiii. 219 - Ought not we to doe the best we can to cast out all that steineth and marreth the perfect beautie of his Church?
1584 Reg. Privy Council Scot. III. 702 - To blott and stainyie the gude word of God.
1633 P. Fletcher Purple Isl. ii. xv, - Which my rude pencil will in limming stain.

Robusto

True enough. He was an Old English scholar, after all. "Middle Earth" was taken directly from OE's middangeard.

tchrist

> 5c. To be or inflict a permanent reproach to or stigma upon; to blemish, soil (a person’s reputation, honour, conscience, etc.); †to charge with something disgraceful. Also intr. of the conscience: †To suffer stain.

1513 More Rich. III (1883) 76 - With which infami he wold not haue his honoure stayned for anye crowne.
1540-1 Elyot Image Gov. 32 - If a knight..had used any unseemly thyng, appairing or steyninge the estimacion of the degree, whiche he represented.
1577 Kendall Flowers of Epigr. 102 - Thei would not haue ye Popedome staynde, with any more Pope Iones.
A. 1605 Montgomerie Misc. Poems ii. 5 - Conscience stenȝies if he steill.
1610 Holland Camden’s Brit. (1637) 545 - Shee that by her light behaviour had not a little steined her good name.

Robusto

14:46

Shire, which comes from scir, is still evident in British place names.

tchrist

Sure.

BESW

Eärendil/Orwandel as Venus never fails to amuse me.

Matt Эллен

@Jez yeah! we're of no concern. Least implies some

tchrist

Many bosoms burdened with foreboding vague
their glooms disowned neath glad laughter.
In song and silence, snow and tempest,
winter wore away; to the world there came
a year once more in youth unstained,
r were leaves less green, light less golden,
the flowers less fair, though in faded hearts
no spring was born, though speeding nigh
danger and dread and doom's footsteps
to their halls hasted. Of the host of iron
came tale and tidings ever treading nearer;
Orcs unnumbered to the East of Narog
roamed and ravened on the realm's borders,

Robusto

Note the four-stress lines with alliteration, and signs of coesura abound: it's aiming at that Anglo-Saxon poetry feel.

tchrist

14:48

I don’t have Sir Gawain electronically in Middle English, but I hazard it contains similar uses of stain (but under bizarre spellings).

@Robusto It is.

2 hours ago, by tchrist

Mordred in secret   mirthless watched them
betwixt hate and envy,   hope and torment.
Thus was bred the evil,   and the black shadow
o’er the courts of Arthur   as a cloud growing
dimmed the daylight   darkling slowly.

Robusto

There you go.

tchrist

I like the last line.

@BESW Perhaps you should declaim some alliterative poetry of that sort.

Robusto

Funny to see Tolkien doing Morte d'Arthur.

Jez

all hail the daily mail

RegDwighт

I sure hope they won't use any of these horrendous fonts.

tchrist

14:53

@Robusto How could you tell? :)

Jez

@RegDwighт "no enjoyment like reading" - there's a virgin

Robusto

Isn't it obvious?

tchrist

@RegDwighт My God, I think they letterspaced the lowercase!

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт not any, they'll use them all!

tchrist

@Robusto Hence my smiley. It’s about 1,000 lines.

Robusto

14:54

@RegDwighт This is just a ploy to get men to spend their cash quicker, and for women to hang on to it.

tchrist

@Robusto Don’t you mean the other way around?

Oh wait, women need no incentive.

BESW

[blink]

Jez

@tchrist well the Met police redesigned their signs with slogans on them a while ago from a cursive to a printed font because the former was "discriminatory to short-sighted people"

Robusto

I never met a man who read Austen except under coercion; nor a literate woman who didn't simply idolize her.

tchrist

Jane Austen: The chickflicks of yesteryear.

Robusto

14:56

Except she keeps getting resurrected in film.

Jez

Austen & Boon

BESW

Let's see if I can't find that blog post...

tchrist

@Robusto I know one who did, and he’s even married with two children now.

BESW

From reviews of Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice at Amazon.com

Jez

"Pride and Prejudice takes place in a small village called Hertfordshire"

is that right? i thought it was a county

Robusto

14:59

Pride and Prejudice has been rendered in film four times: in 1940, 1980, 1995, and 2003. We haven't had a sighting for 10 years, but this thing could blow at any minute, like Vesuvius.

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