English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

GratefulDisciple

00:05

@alphabet TBH, I haven't studied the technical details of the 5 arguments myself (you may know better than I do), so reading the IEP, Russell, Feser's book and watching several of Gavin Ortlund's Truth Unites episodes (such as this) should help me appreciate the arguments more.

@alphabet That much I got, though. This series helped me a lot as well.

@Mitch Wow, wolves are featured a lot in many cultures, including Roman as well as Mongolian!

@alphabet If you don't mind me asking, what's the argument appealing to you the most, that helps you to not be a theist?

Mitch

00:33

@GratefulDisciple wolves are just big fluffy dogs.

Which, if given the chance, might very well eat your face off.

So there's good and bad in them

alphabet

@GratefulDisciple In my view, some of the arguments for God's existence that you find in medieval philosophy might, at least, prove the existence of something. But they don't prove that that thing has any of the attributes that we typically associate with God, at least the God most religions believe in.

Cerberus

Extraordinary assertions require extraordinary evidence.

alphabet

I'm skeptical of this argument because it may depend too much on Aristotelian metaphysics to make sense.

But even if it works, it doesn't follow that the "first cause" is benevolent, or answers prayers, or produces miracles, or gives us eternal life, etc.

Xanne

Strands #320
“The time of our lives”
🔵🔵🔵🟡
🔵🔵

Mitch

@Cerberus that's an extraordinary assertion

Haha

Hah

Xanne

00:39

There’s always the Christopher Hitchens view.

GratefulDisciple

@alphabet You're completely right, of course. The God proven by the 5 causes is still an unknown entity (despite existing). But besides discounting that possibility, do you have a positive argument convincing you of atheism?

@Mitch I like foxes better, at least in stories.

Mitch

@alphabet but really that can be used in every direction depending on the strength of belief of your priors.

@GratefulDisciple foxes are clever loners. But they also stink

No offense to any foxes here.

It's a human thing.

Cerberus

@Mitch Is not!

Xanne

Connections
Puzzle #586
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟨🟪🟨🟨
🟨🟪🟨🟨
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟪🟪🟪🟪

Mitch

@Cerberus if not extraordinary, it certainly is not obvious.

GratefulDisciple

00:48

@Xanne Is it a fair assertion that among atheist apologists that Christopher Hitchens is the 21st century foremost authority on atheism comparable to Russell in the 20th century?

Cerberus

@Mitch Your mother is not obvious.

Mitch

I don't think Hitchens is/was an apologist.

@Cerberus ooh the gloves are off!

Cerberus

New Atheism

The term New Atheism describes the positions of some atheist academics, writers, scientists, and philosophers of the 20th and 21st centuries. New Atheism advocates the view that superstition, religion, and irrationalism should not be tolerated. Instead, they advocate the antitheist view that the various forms of theism should be criticised, countered, examined, and challenged by rational argument, especially when they exert strong influence on the broader society, such as in government, education, and politics. Major figures of New Atheism include Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens...

Xanne

@GratefulDisciple I don’t care either way.

Cerberus

Link to The Four Horsemen.

Mitch

00:50

That makes me think of the Nazgul.

Minus five.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Since he's one of the 4, that's why I thought Hitchens is one of foremost apologists for atheism.

@Mitch Indeed.

alphabet

@GratefulDisciple Certainly the most obvious argument against the sort of God that most religions posit is the fact that they run so completely counter to our scientific understanding of the world that you'd be hard pressed to defend them.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple I think the word apologist is not quite appropriate, though.

Mitch

@Cerberus but to your point I don't think she was particularly obvious or obscure.

GratefulDisciple

@alphabet I heard that and got it. But for individual atheists usually there is a more personal element. My uncle, for instance, became atheist when his 2 year old son died.

Cerberus

00:53

@Mitch How would you describe her?

alphabet

There are certain kinds of extremely minimalistic deism or pantheism that I might be willing to accept arguments for. But the sort of entity that they posit differs so much from the God of any mainstream religion that I don't think it even makes sense to call it "God."

Mitch

@Cerberus CS Lewis was a Christian apologist, meaning he was an atheist who defended Christianity.

Cerberus

Uhh what?

C. S. Lewis, an atheist?

alphabet

@GratefulDisciple Neither of my parents were religious, so I just never picked it up.

Mitch

@Cerberus he wasn't?

Xanne

00:55

Actually I think the case is good that mankind creates religion, with enormous creativity, to embody views and suit circumstances. So while God is of no interest, religion is, like language and music, interesting.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus So what term would atheists use for people like him? Teacher? Proponent? Philosopher?

Cerberus

@alphabet Nobody in my family has ever mentioned religion, neither grandparents nor great-aunts. I hardly know anyone who is religious. But I think I may have mentioned that ~~before~~ all the time...

alphabet

It is worth noting that Aquinas himself thinks that core elements of Christianity--e.g. the Trinity--can't be proven by argument but need to be taken on faith.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple It is not about who uses the term. Proponent seems fine.

GratefulDisciple

@alphabet Of course, or at least credible on testimony of the apostles, which then (given faith) reason is willing to accept without complete evidence.

Cerberus

00:57

@Mitch He began the Narnia books just as he became religious again.

C. S. Lewis

Clive Staples Lewis (29 November 1898 – 22 November 1963) was an Irish-born British writer, literary scholar, and Anglican lay theologian. He held academic positions in English literature at both Magdalen College, Oxford (1925–1954), and Magdalene College, Cambridge (1954–1963). He is best known as the author of The Chronicles of Narnia, but he is also noted for his other works of fiction, such as The Screwtape Letters and The Space Trilogy, and for his non-fiction Christian apologetics, including Mere Christianity, Miracles, and The Problem of Pain. Lewis was a close friend of J. R. R. Tolkien...

Mitch

@Cerberus haha I'm reading that right now.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus I think he became Christian at least a decade before then.

Cerberus

I thought you might.

Mitch

I thought he had turned away from the Church, but still wrote approvingly of Christianity.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple That is not what Wikipaedia says.

Mitch

00:59

And frankly I took that as the definition of 'apologist'

But I see that I am wrong in a number of ways.

Cerberus

I would say an apologist normally defends something controversial?

Mitch

So then Hitchens -is- somewhat of an apologist then, right?

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus According to this timeline, he became theist in 1929, Christian in 1931 (Tolkien played a role), published what later became his first Christian book (Screwtape Letters) in 1941, lectured on Christianity in the BBC in 1944, and wrote the first Narnia book in 1950.

Xanne

:66992270

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus So both you and @alphabet was "born" into atheism then, just like I was born into Christianity.

Cerberus

01:05

@GratefulDisciple Oops I see now that I miscalculated, no idea how that happened. You're right.

@GratefulDisciple That is pretty normal in Europe and China and such places.

alphabet

I don't much like the "New Atheists." Their project seems mostly to involve trolling and ridiculing religious people, and they tend to advance a tendentious reading of history. I don't think they achieved much, since society was secularizing anyway.

Cerberus

I may agree with that.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus I can imagine so. Most of your primary schoolmates were atheists "by default" too, then?

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple I never knew anyone religious in my youth.

And I still know hardly anyone.

Among educated people, it is rare except in the orthodox Bible Belt.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus That's quite significant. I went to a Christian private school (which was not expensive in Indonesia).

Cerberus

01:07

It is normal here.

Xanne

Europe has an organized Bible belt?

Cerberus

Religion still lives in the Bible Belt and in the Muslim neighbourhoods.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus For most Indonesians, on the other hand, the "default" is believing in God through one of the 5 official religions, which we must identify in our ID card.

Cerberus

@Xanne They meet every Wednesday.

Xanne

Where is the Bible Belt?

GratefulDisciple

01:09

@alphabet Would you say most atheists don't like them similarly?

Mitch

@Cerberus that seems prudent.

Avoids ruining the weekend.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Seriously? They go to church on Wednesdays?

Cerberus

Bijbelgordel

De Bijbelgordel ook wel Biblebelt of refoband, is een aanduiding voor een brede strook die door Nederland loopt van Zeeland naar Overijssel. In deze zone wonen relatief veel bevindelijk gereformeerden. Binnen de Bijbelgordel vormen bevindelijk gereformeerden in geen enkele gemeente de meerderheid, maar wel in sommige dorpen als Elspeet (gemeente Nunspeet) en Uddel (gemeente Apeldoorn). Ook in de Verenigde Staten is een Bijbelgordel, daar Bible Belt genoemd. Ook in Noorwegen is er iets soortgelijks, bibelbeltet genaamd. == Naamgeving == De benaming Bijbelgordel is ontleend aan het Engelse Bible…

alphabet

@GratefulDisciple Certainly I knew plenty of religious people growing up. I can't say what percentage of my schoolmates were.

Mitch

@Cerberus are kids ever religious? Don't you just do what your parents make you do?

GratefulDisciple

01:10

@alphabet Because we're in America, but continental Europe seems to be very different.

Mitch

I mean sure kids are total believers.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple It was a joke. Xanne seemed to think there was an organised(?) Bible Belt in Europe.

Mitch

But it's not like they're haveing big tent revivals on the playground

Cerberus

@Mitch More religious than they will be once their leave their parents' house.

@GratefulDisciple The British Isles and Iceland are no more religious than the continent.

GratefulDisciple

@Xanne I can see that, especially in mainline churches, providing social matrix and some culture.

Mitch

01:13

@Cerberus and then they have kids and start going back to Church/temple/mosque/etc

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus Including Ireland?

alphabet

@GratefulDisciple I don't know. But I don't think most "unaffiliated" people are hardcore atheists of the Richard Dawkins type. I suspect most don't even know about him.

Cerberus

@Mitch Not any more.

Besides, religious attendance is normally low among religious people.

@GratefulDisciple It is probably the most religious officially, but their Catholicism is to a large degree more cultural, where they don't really believe in it any more.

Mitch

@Cerberus and among the irreligious?

Cerberus

So who knows?

@Mitch Every Wednesday.

GratefulDisciple

01:15

@Cerberus In America having kids often become the point where the parents want to find like-minded parents to help them raise the kids, hence going to church. But in Europe, how would they meet parents; is it through school PTA?

Cerberus

School, yes.

Mitch

@Cerberus do they have donuts?

Or snacks or whatever?

Cerberus

Play dates are organised at the school's playground, typically.

And parents typically can't pick whom their children want to play with...

Of course I don't know what happens in other countries.

alphabet

@GratefulDisciple Yes. And I'm in the fourth least religious state of the US.

Cerberus

But school would be the central place for children to meat other children besides sport clubs and such.

GratefulDisciple

01:18

@alphabet MA is far from the Bible belt.

@Cerberus So it seems to an entire generation, Christianity is now a novelty then? Or they know about it second hand (word of mouth, some representations in books, etc.)

Cerberus

Hardly a novelty.

An historical phaenomenon.

Mitch

There are a lot of atheists and non churchgoers in the high religion states (and vice versa).

They're just scared to speak up.

Cerberus

Something for grandparents and poor immigrants.

GratefulDisciple

@Cerberus What I mean, they don't know what Christianity is about. Or were they taught a version of it in the standard curriculum as though it's knowledge of other cultures?

alphabet

And certainly the association of religion with social conservatism has contributed to negative perceptions in some sectors of society.

Mitch

01:22

Part of their own culture, but historical

GratefulDisciple

@alphabet That's understandable.

@Mitch If it's being studied as historica but the kids don't engage in it, it might as well be other cultures you read in stories just like I got to know upper middle class genteel land owning family lives through Jane Austen novels? Or know about the Puritans through American history books.

Mitch

The past is another country

GratefulDisciple

@Mitch Which is why I thought "novelty" is an apt word.

@Mitch I wonder how coffee and donuts became the mainstay of churches, if not for free, they sell them in their facility's café.

Gotta have dinner. TTYL.

Cerberus

@GratefulDisciple Other culture and history are similar in this regard?

Yes, few children would be religious, and of course in school it is taught mainly during history classes.

@GratefulDisciple Yes, it is similar.

Xanne

And yet, religious belief is more open than it was 20 or 40 years ago

CowperKettle

01:33

> The past is such a curious creature,
To look her in the face
A transport may reward us,
Or a disgrace.

Unarmed if any meet her,
I charge him, fly!
Her rusty ammunition
Might yet reply!

Xanne

Even as coming to terms with the Earth’s not being the center of the universe (from Copernicus on, with the moon landing, Hubble and Webb telescopes) continues to be a problem.

Cerberus

@Xanne In progressive societies, it usually moves along a little bit.

CowperKettle

> Their scholars set the whole creation
Centered within their native shores,
And strive to find the true equation,
And muse aloud, like truly yours.

And when in self-destroying fusion
Their tiny world new force emits,
They see, in cruel self-delusion,
God's lantern shattered into bits.

Valery Bryusov, 1922

Xanne

@Cerberus Sure, but the question of purpose remains.

Cerberus

What do you mean?

Mitch

01:38

@GratefulDisciple I don't think there's anything deeper than they're snacks you can eat with your hands.

Bagels or muffins are good too

Xanne

Why am I here? Why did God visit fire and brimstone upon Pacific Palisades, to say nothing of Palestine and Israel?

Mitch

Everybody drinks coffee or tea

Except for Mormons who drink...Mountain Dew?

@Xanne Holy crap. Now I feel bad.

alphabet

Jan 14 at 0:26, by alphabet

For my part I think wildfires are divine punishment for suburbanization.

Xanne

Xanne sends Mitch a hanky

CowperKettle

> A Nature paper describes AI-based translation technology that outperforms existing systems and extends the range of translatable languages, moving us towards rapid universal translations and improved communication across language barriers nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08359-z

Xanne

01:43

There’s a recent book—anthropology, I think—about how homo sapiens are moral by nature, not just because God will punish if you don”t behave.

Cerberus

@Xanne Good questions, but I'm not sure what this was about?

Xanne

@Cerberus It was about God, originally.

Mitch

@Xanne thanks. I needed that.

Cerberus

@Xanne Morality aids in coöperation, and so makes communities thrive.

Mitch

Some animals are liars.

Cerberus

01:45

So, yeah, it is beneficial evolutionarily.

@Mitch Probably all the intelligent ones...

But even simple animals can play dead.

Mitch

@Cerberus yes. There's planning involved.

I think I've only heard anecdotes of primates engaging in 'misdirectional' behavior.

Oh maybe dolphins?

Xanne

@Mitch True. And the theories about why that too contributes to survival etc. have already been written.

Mitch

Elephants seem like they'd be too cool for that.

Or there's the capuchin monkeys who get really angry and throw away a treat when one of their friends keeps getting a better treat than them.

Coveting.

Xanne

Then there are the great apes among which the males beat up the females, sometimes not for sex but just for fun.

Vikas

@M.A.R. I don't know much I merely shared for context. Don't know why they're written this way.

Mitch

01:55

@Xanne I hadn't heard that one. Chimps, gorillas, or oranges? Or all of them?

Xanne

The article I read was about bonobos, which are usually pretty nice.

alphabet

@Mitch Humans too, unfortunately.

Mitch

@alphabet I have heard of that.

jlliagre

alphabet

02:11

Of course us he-raccoons would never mistreat a female, whatever the human propaganda may tell you.

That's all I do all day, walk around treating lady raccoons with kindness and respect.

Cerberus

@Mitch Corvids pretend to be burying food but only when a conspecific watches.

Poor countries are the most religious.

Greece is an outlier in Europe.

@M.A.R. Do you think weekly mosque attendance is still this high now in Iran?

Mitch

02:30

@Cerberus oh yeah those other crows are little bastards and will steal your stuff

@Cerberus say what you will about the stats but that color scheme is -awful-.

Cerberus

@Mitch Hmm at least the four colours are distinct enough?

Mitch

Four? I see only blue gray and orange.

Cerberus

Two blues and two oranges.

Mitch

Which to me don't really form a natural continuum

Cerberus

Each one distinct.

True.

But it doesn't have to be a continuum?

I would say, the more contrast, the better.

Mitch

02:35

I'm just annoyed because it took me a while to figure out what was up and what was down.

I find Israel at 30% too high to believe

Or maybe things have changed

@Cerberus nothing -has- to be anything. But a continuous measure is nice to be coded as continuous range of colors.

Xanne

@Mitch Maybe it’s the ultra conservatives. These are people attending services.

Cerberus

@Mitch Why, though? There are so many orthodox Jews there.

I expect that proportion to be higher now.

@Mitch Maybe.

But I think the bigger problem is generally that someone will fill a map with various grades of blue, where you can't immediately see which country is which grade because the grades are too close together.

Mitch

@Cerberus the religious set in Israel was always a very small minority. But I suppose they're growing

@Xanne That's more haredim that I expect.

Cerberus

They are.

Mitch

I've been wrong three times today. (At least!)

That's gonna be hard to fix.

I've already forgotten the other two

Oh yeah. I thought CS Lewis lost faith but instead he gained it.

And ... Oh I just lost it again

Cerberus

02:50

Be brave.

Be strong.

Mitch

An apologist is...

Cerberus

Be beautiful.

Mitch

Not what I thought it was.

Bit I forgot what I thought it was.

Did I think what I think now? And what I think now is wrong?

Or is what I think now is right?

I don't know!

Cerberus

Swim instructor uses ‘mermaid mantra’ to help kids overcome fears l GMA

►

You need this.

Mitch

@Cerberus I use the Frozen mantra to get over things.

"Let it go"

Cerberus

02:53

How Stoic.

Xanne

An apologist is an amateur advocate.

CowperKettle

03:46

Winter Evening in Gagra | MUSICAL | FULL MOVIE | by Karen Shakhnazarov

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I loved this movie as a kid.

Two of Shakhnazarov's movies are great. This, and The Messenger Boy

Vikas