English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

jlliagre

00:01

@tchrist You derailed the original dialog. I wonder if you had trouble to find a good translation for tía / feminine for type.

tchrist

Yes, that's the problem. I don't know a good feminine slang for that in French.

There's no girl version of mec.

jlliagre

Meuf maybe, but more colloquial.

tchrist

But guy and gal can just be tío and tía in Spanish and nobody bats an eyelash.

I'm probably suffering from sex-based delusion here. I blame Sapir-Whorf if so.

jlliagre

Gonzesse, nana tend to be outdated.

tchrist

They get outdated by the modern chicks, you mean? :)

No date for nana.

jlliagre

00:06

Greluche, pépée.

Loute.

tchrist

IIRC, tío is one of those oddities in familial terms in that it's not from Latin but from Greek.

Italian has zio there, Sardinian tiu. Meanwhile we can't even keep our eams.

Avuncular ruins.

jlliagre

thius

Noun: thīus m (genitive thīī); second declension

(Late Latin) uncle

tchrist

Yeah, that one.

12

A: A complete family tree

Each new paragraph shows a new generation (g means 'great'). Enclosures within (brackets) indicate the maternal side : tritavus = tritavia g.g.g.g.grandfather, mother atavus=atavia g.g.g.grandfather, mother patruus maximus g.grand uncle — amita maxima aunt — abavus *grandfather(=abavia — av...

tío, tío abuelo, tío bisabuelo

Not bisatío though. :)

Somehow "Grandpa Uncle" o(r "Uncle Grandpa"?) just doesn't have the same grand ring as granduncle and great-uncle have. :)

Dannyu NDos

01:01

@jlliagre Yeah, exactly.

@jlliagre You think those are difficult? Worth comparing to Japanese.

tchrist

@DannyuNDos You don't need the subject pronoun to know the subject in Spanish, at least not usually. You can tell by the morphology of the verb.

Robusto

@DannyuNDos The Japanese don't really like direct address, or even direct mention. My wife's parents referred to neighbors as "next door" and so forth. Reference by title is more comfortable if the person is senior, and so on. You risk insulting people by calling them anata ("you") and so forth. So-called "humble" nouns distinguish "your side" while "exalted" nouns make it clear you're talking about the addressee's family, household, whatever.

Jul 21, 2018 at 21:45, by Robusto

For example, if I use the term kanai for wife, it will be understood that I'm talking about my wife; if I use oku-san (honorable interior) I'm talking about yours.

tchrist

@DannyuNDos Almost all Romance languages are this way, which we call "pro-drop". Latin was too, and hence the practice. French is an exception to this, possibly due to Germanic contact via the invaders, but possibly due to loss of auditory distinction in four of the six persons.

Brazil seems to be going the French direction, but Portugal is not.

Pro-drop language

A pro-drop language (from "pronoun-dropping") is a language in which certain classes of pronouns may be omitted when they can be pragmatically or grammatically inferable. The precise conditions vary from language to language, and can be quite intricate. The phenomenon of "pronoun-dropping" is part of the larger topic of zero or null anaphora. The connection between pro-drop languages and null anaphora relates to the fact that a dropped pronoun has referential properties, and so is crucially not a null dummy pronoun. Pro-drop is a problem when translating to a non-pro-drop language such as English...

> "I called up your sister the other day. Told her to get over it."

Cerberus

Connections
Puzzle #581
🟪🟦🟪🟦
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟪🟪🟪🟪
🟦🟦🟦🟦

tchrist

English allows it only in what's called "conversational deletion".

Cerberus

01:14

Blue I just didn't know, mostly.

@tchrist By the way, do you ever play the Connections game?

tchrist

@Cerberus No, I'm too dull-witted for such things.

Cerberus

Such modesty.

I don't believe it.

What if it contained a character from Tolkien?

Would you play it then?

tchrist

Always underpromise, that they be surprised if you manage to overdeliver.

Cerberus

True.

tchrist

@Cerberus My brother sends me those on the cell phone.

Cerberus

01:19

It is just that I never see you talk about them here.

@tchrist So you do them!

tchrist

No, he sends me Tolkien puzzles.

Cerberus

"On the cell phone" sounds funny.

Ahh.

Any you could show us?

tchrist

Or he sends me a bit of fan art and asks for a creative caption.

Oh I don't know, maybe.

Cerberus

So you never do the Connections?

tchrist

I have not.

jlliagre

01:22

Connections
Puzzle #581
🟦🟪🟦🟦
🟨🟩🟩🟨
🟪🟦🟩🟩
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟪🟦🟦🟦
I'm the dull-witted here :-)

Robusto

@tchrist That was always my strategy when I was working. I think most software engineers are the same.

@jlliagre If it was filled with French memes and references you'd kill it.

tchrist

Avec des français mêmes?

jlliagre

@tchrist Des mèmes français.

tchrist

That would be something else again. :)

I was thinking of having real French people themselves of course.

@Cerberus The problem with popular games is that they require the mind of the populace, something I lack. I get frustrated when I'm asked about trash pop culture.

Which has turned me off to all puzzles.

Even when we all do the New York Times puzzles at family holiday festivities, I find there are many lacunae of that nature.

Cerberus

@jlliagre Nooo.

Big parts of it are just trivia.

@tchrist Yes, it is true.

And I feel the same about popular puzzles.

And some of these puzzles as bad for that reason. But some can be solved without such esoteric knowledge.

And/or you can just get three out of four quartets when the fourth is of the bad category.

What if someone made a Connections puzzle that required no knowledge of commercial mass entertainment?

tchrist

01:36

heh

Cerberus

An hypothetical person.

Robusto

Tightrope is coming off my list of puzzles to do. I have no idea who today's pop stars are.

Mitch

@Cerberus who could that possibly be?

Cerberus

@Robusto Agreed, it kind of sucks.

@Mitch Yes, if only we knew!

Mitch

If I come across someone like that, I'll mention it.

Though unlikely

Cerberus

01:44

Hmm.

Mitch

Weird people like that are hard to come by.

Robusto

But Connections doesn't normally indulge in "trash pop"; some solutions, however, veer too close to cultural artifacts unknown to me.

Mitch

That's why they're considered weird.

Cerberus

@Robusto I would say on average 0.9 quartets are like that.

About candy or sports or boy bands and such.

@Mitch Maybe they should be caught and locked up.

Robusto

@Mitch This reminds me of a cartoon of several decades ago. An older couple are sitting soberly in a theater, with everyone around them contorted with laughter. The husband is saying to his wife: "Must be some kind of in-joke."

Mitch

01:46

@Cerberus being shot on sight would be too good for them.

@Robusto New Yorker, June 1994.

Nope.

July.

Cerberus

@Mitch Ouch!

Robusto

@Mitch Definitely New Yorker.

Cerberus

@Robusto One does feel that way.

Robusto

@Mitch You really remember that one, with the date?

Mitch

@Robusto snirkle

Robusto

01:49

OIC

Mitch

I absolutely know it's not that date because I only had a subscription for a few years after 2005.

Cerberus

connectionsplus.io/game/qC2dO9

@tchrist I promise, no trashy stuff. Can be played at the site linked above the screenshot. Some basic Tolkienesque knowledge is probably required, but it can be looked up by those who do not know. It is not like the regular Connections puzzles: this one isn't really about secondary meanings of words.

Mitch

Is that about Harry Potter?

Cerberus

It should be easy or maybe someone could Google something if needed.

@Mitch I don't know Harry Potter, haven't read it.

There is obviously some Tolkien going on, but also many things not at all in Tolkien.

If there is anything you don't know, Google is allowed.

When you get one, the rest will fall like dominos.

jlliagre

@Cerberus Spoiler

Cerberus

01:57

@jlliagre You are close. But the first word is not correct here, I think that may vary by culture?

You can play it at the link above the screenshot!

Robusto

Dark Lord
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟪🟪🟪🟪

jlliagre

@Cerberus I was confused indeed. I believe it can be one or the other but nothing else. That depends on the country.

Cerberus

@Robusto Ding!

@Robusto Was it easy?

Robusto

@Cerberus Fairly.

Cerberus

@jlliagre That may be so. In the Anglosphere, it is different from what you had.

@Robusto I figured.

When you get one, you get them all, isn't it?

Robusto

02:08

dd

Cerberus

You need slashes.

Robusto

@Cerberus Spoiler

Cerberus

Right!

It was meant to be more "ah-hah!" than "I feel so clever".

Robusto

It was enjoyable. Let's leave it at that.

Cerberus

OK, thanks!

Did you know all of the things without looking anything up?

Robusto

02:13

@Cerberus Yes.

Cerberus

I thought you might, know them all.

Any suggestions for improvement?

Robusto

Well, this one was themed, which made it easier. If you want to make them harder, you could go in different directions.

Cerberus

Yeah, absolutely.

You could make one yourself.

Robusto

I could. It might be too hard, though. If I get some time with nothing on my plate, perhaps I shall.

Cerberus

It seems to be hard not to make it too hard.

jlliagre

02:20

Dark Lord
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟪🟪🟪🟪

Cerberus

Congrats!

Was it easy, besides that one thing?

jlliagre

@Cerberus It was doable and easier when you realize something about the categories.

Cerberus

@jlliagre Exactly.

Did you realise immediately after getting the first category right?

jlliagre

I was suspecting it but was looking for a trap.

Cerberus

Hah!

And of course it is always wise to be suspicious.

jlliagre

02:23

But there was no trap :-)

Cerberus

None at all.

jlliagre

Except the one I fall into.

Cerberus

I even took care not to have four other things that could be matched together.

jlliagre

@Cerberus Spoiler

Cerberus

@jlliagre Yeah, I read that while making the puzzle.

But it was hard to find something in that category, and I felt it was good enough because the puzzle is English.

alphabet

02:49

@Cerberus Have I gone on a rant about men recently? They irk me. Even I irk me.

Cerberus

@alphabet Aww what do they do?

alphabet

03:00

@Cerberus You show up at their address and, instead of telling you how to find them, they send you vaguely unhinged messages until you decide to leave.

All men are like this. Every single one.

I assume.

CowperKettle

'Tis evening on the moorland free,
The starlit wave is still:
Home is the sailor from the sea,
The hunter from the hill.

Cerberus

@alphabet That is terrible!

I'm sorry this has happened to you.

He is a bad person.

How long did you stay?

I was once stood up when I went to someone's house but he went to bed because I took 12 minutes to get there instead of the 8 I had said.

I hope you didn't travel far.

alphabet

@Cerberus 12 goddamn minutes, which was about 10 minutes too long.

Cerberus

I guess I might have waited longer haha.

So you have more of a backbone.

Did he message you after you left?

alphabet

It's -2 Celsius outside.

Cerberus

03:13

Cool.

alphabet

Granted, the vaguely unhinged messages meant that I was kinda glad I had an excuse to leave.

Cerberus

Perhaps he was on crystal meth?

alphabet

Anyway, the good news is I didn't get murdered 🎉🎉🎉

Cerberus

Yes, you should probably be glad to have not met him.

Exactly.

@alphabet Next time.

alphabet

The bad news is he has my phone number, which is probably enough to track me down somehow if he decides to murder me anyway.

Cerberus

03:17

I doubt it.

Besides, he seems far too lazy to do that.

alphabet

One hopes.

Cerberus

It sucks.

How was he in conversation before you left?

HippoSawrUs

Delinquent Payment
You missed 4 [Creditor Name] payments since Sep 15, 2022
Between Sep 15, 2022 and Jan 8, 2025, you made 24 out of 28 payments on time (or didn't have a balance to pay off).

alphabet

@Cerberus I'm sorry about your experience also.

Cerberus

It's OK, it was a while ago.

HippoSawrUs

03:20

Credit Karma has lost their minds

Cerberus

The only time such a thing has ever happened to me.

alphabet

@Cerberus You seem to assume we had a conversation at some point.

Cerberus

I mean, in text.

alphabet

We hadn't conversed enough for me to really know. Bad, I'd assume.

HippoSawrUs

Translation: 'You're late, late, late, late! OR you had a zero balance. We're not sure.'

Cerberus

03:23

@alphabet OK maybe doing that would help.

I wouldn't meet someone without having a normal conversation first.

HippoSawrUs

They can't read credit reports now. They're just making up numbers and stuff now.

alphabet

@Cerberus Perhaps.

Cerberus

Seriously.

HippoSawrUs

If at first you can't read, you can't summarize.

That makes sense. :-(

I think AI was involved…

CowperKettle

03:40

> If you ever think English is not a weird language just remember that read and lead rhyme and read and lead rhyme.

But read and lead don't rhyme, and neither do read and lead.

Cerberus

@alphabet I hope you know he is 100% crazy and not a normal person, and that everybody likes you and wants you.

alphabet

@Cerberus I am well aware, of course. I was just joking earlier.

Cerberus

Even so.

Did you travel far?

alphabet

Not particularly.

Cerberus

That is good.

alphabet

03:53

Anyway, how are you doing?

Cerberus

All normal.

alphabet

Well, that's good, I think?

Cerberus

I have a date tomorrow.

alphabet

Lovely. Someone new, I assume?

Cerberus

Yes.

We shall see.

I have no expectations.

He seems nice.

alphabet

04:01

Well that's good. Are you looking for a relationship?

Cerberus

I'm happy single.

But the app just naturally leads to talking to people.

And, when someone seems nice, why not meet and see what happens?

CowperKettle

@Cerberus Which app do you use?

Cerberus

Well, it is a gay app.

CowperKettle

Ah!

Cerberus

I haven't used Tinder in a decade.

CowperKettle

04:03

I wonder if Russians in Russia use it too. I mean gay Russians.

Cerberus

Maybe that works too.

I actually don't know.

I suspect that they do.

alphabet

Probably the FSB operates one to gather kompromat.

CowperKettle

alphabet

I thought that was gonna be one of those "Magic Eye" things but it didn't work.

Cerberus

It works for me.

It wiggles.

Without being a GIF.

@CowperKettle It seems that it is blocked so you need a VPN in Russia, but people no doubt still use it.

alphabet

04:16

I just googled "Magic Eye" and wow you can find some good ones

(If you're unlucky enough not to have seen these before: cross your eyes so that the patterns line up.)

Cerberus

@alphabet Very nice.

In this case, it pops out of the screen when you focus in the harder direction. In the other direction, it's less good.

alphabet

Or rather: you have to separate your eyes so that they go out of focus, like you're looking at a point far behind the screen.

Cerberus

Yeah. When you look at a point before the screen, it works but is less good.

CowperKettle

@Cerberus Yes, everybody uses VPN now.

Cerberus

@CowperKettle Good. Do the VPNs always work well enough?

CowperKettle

04:27

@Cerberus Some do not, but the one I'm using have been working fine for the last couple years

HLVPN

Cerberus

Nice.

CowperKettle

It's some 200 rubles a month

Cerberus

Not much.

CowperKettle

05:07

ft.com/content/…

Dannyu NDos

06:38

[SynthV Feng Yi, Yun Quan, Nyl, Yuma, Oscar] [English Adaptation] 소녀시대 ― 다시 만난 세계

►

CowperKettle

07:17

> A South Wind — has a pathos
Of individual Voice —
As One detect on Landings
An Emigrant's address.

A Hint of Ports and Peoples —
And much not understood —
The fairer — for the farness —
And for the foreignhood.

Dickinson of the day.

SmokeDetector

07:36

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in title (1): Phone pe wrong recharge refund money?‭ by Raju Rastoghi‭ on english.SE

CowperKettle

08:21

> "You could hide in places that are too small for other people to hide in" - "I dont even know what job that is"

I don't get it..

It's from this video:

Dwarf On Pole

►

Vikas

11:46

Does any of you read books on phone (or computer)?

alphabet

14:07

2

Q: Preposing vs. fronting

In "A Student's Introduction To English Grammar" by Rodney Huddleston, in a chapter on "information packaging", there is a section on "preposing and postposing". The section discusses preposing adjuncts and complements. The section also includes a subsection on subject–auxiliary inversion, alth...

terminology

Well, I wouldn't call them equivalent. Surely "I ain't gon' flex, I'm not gon' prepose" wouldn't make much sense. /s

Robusto

@CowperKettle The point is, she's coming up with lots of dumb ideas that are (unintentionally) aimed at destroying his dubious plan. His response to that particular one just points up his indignation at the whole thing.

The line is not particularly funny at that point, just a culmination of his indignation.

You should watch more of Ricky Gervais to get used to his sense of humor, which is quite sharp under all the silliness.

Warwick's secretary is not very bright, but somehow she is pointing up all the flaws in his "brilliant" plan to make money off of "Dwarves for Hire."

GratefulDisciple

@jlliagre Just tried 581. I got defeated too; lost my 12 day streak. The blue is too domain-specific and the purple would have been guessable if I could see the single thing that unify the 4. At least I lost my streak to this one rather than to the one I was complaining before.

Connections
Puzzle #581
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟪🟦🟦🟦
🟪🟦🟪🟦
🟪🟪🟦🟪
🟪🟪🟦🟦

@Vikas I do both, depending on where I'm at.

Robusto

14:31

#travle #760 +0 (Perfect)
✅✅✅
https://travle.earth

Vikas

@GratefulDisciple 👍🏾 Do you get any discomfort like "not wanting to read on these devices" especially maybe eye strain or brightness etc.? I have a Kindle but it's battery backup has reduced so I can't continue that. Thinking to switch to mobile and pc monitor. Not sure it's a good idea.

Robusto

@Vikas I've tried phone and computer, and they'll do in a pinch, but Kindle is the way to go.

Vikas

@Robusto It's a shame there's no official way to purchase and replace the battery for Kindle. Further, in recent years, they have increased Kindle prices around 60% at least in my country.

Robusto

#WhenTaken #320 (12.01.2025)

I scored 693/1000🎗️

1️⃣📍305 m - 🗓️0 yrs - 🥇200/200
2️⃣📍968 km - 🗓️5 yrs - 🥈166/200
3️⃣📍4.3K km - 🗓️28 yrs - 🥉50/200
4️⃣📍11.5 km - 🗓️44 yrs - 🥉99/200
5️⃣📍585 km - 🗓️4 yrs - 🥇178/200

https://whentaken.com

@Vikas Yes, it's annoying. The new Kindles are great, though.

Mar 7, 2023 at 3:39, by Robusto

Anyway, the idea of reading novels on your phone is moot for me. I have a Kindle, which I use all the time. I seldom read paper books anymore because the Kindle is just so handy. I know, Tom (@tchrist), this is anathema to you, but I get so much more reading done this way.

Wordle 1,303 4/6

🟨⬛⬛⬛🟨
🟨⬛⬛⬛⬛
🟨⬛⬛⬛⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Connections
Puzzle #581
🟦🟪🟦🟦
🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟨🟨🟨🟨
🟦🟦🟦🟦
🟪🟪🟪🟪

M.A.R.

15:02

@Robusto I have a Samsung tablet whose screen is just a little bit bigger than a Kindle, I think. I've done thousands of hours of reading on it

Maybe just a couple thousand

Robusto

@M.A.R. Sure, a tablet can serve in place of a Kindle. With the Kindle app on it, one of those is basically a Kindle in different clothing.

The Kindle's battery life is superior, however.

Vikas

My Kindle is around 8 years old. I read only around 15-20 books in that timespan lol

M.A.R.

@Vikas depends on the book

Vikas

@M.A.R. Of course they were non academic.

M.A.R.

@Vikas you're not erudite unless you've read The Critique of Pure Reason. Twice. Backwards.

Vikas

15:09

@M.A.R. Haven't.

Robusto

@M.A.R. It's a great read if you're not sleeping well.

Does the trick every time. Better than Ambien, I'd bet.

M.A.R.

@Robusto I have a book like that. But it's pharmacotherapy

@Vikas Plebian

Robusto

Aug 3, 2020 at 20:32, by Robusto

@M.A.R. Nicht so tief als Immanuel Kant.

jlliagre

@GratefulDisciple Spoiler

M.A.R.

In other news I studied for and took a "pharmaceutical management" exam. All that soulless BS about "total quality management" and "process-oriented approach".

I feel like having migraine without actually having migraine

Robusto

15:15

@jlliagre I did the same. A good misdirection.

@M.A.R. This is why you don't take a management job. Ever.

I was consistently offered management jobs in programming but I turned them all down. "But you're a great programmer!" Yeah. So why would that make you think I'd be any good at management?

I presume you went into pharmacy because you like it. Stay with it. Don't let them put you in a different discipline.

My scientist son is finding that out. He loves doing the science, but they made him be a boss, and he enjoys that much less.

M.A.R.

@Robusto no no it's just an obligatory course on how to run your own pharmacy or pharmaceutical company. They could have chosen to teach something actually useful, but I'll forget 80 percent of what I studied by next week

Robusto

@M.A.R. Don't you have your degree already?

M.A.R.

No it's the final semester

Robusto

So ... crawling to the finish line.

M.A.R.

Believe me I'm sick of the nonsense. The important stuff was over by year 4.

@Robusto like an earthworm

Robusto

15:24

Unfortunately nonsense is something that never seems to get put behind you.

M.A.R.

@Robusto my courses this semester include management, sociology, and traditional medicine.

Basically the "other" category.

"sociology" is of course not about sociology sociology but mainly about the downfall of western civilization due to decadence

If we let women abandon hijab today they will want to open up brothels tomorrow

Robusto

@M.A.R. Ah yes, you must cleave to the parochial in order to be a useful drone.

jlliagre

M.A.R.

And I don't even wanna rant about the disingenuous deceptive hallucinations of traditional medical 'doctors'.

Each worse than the other

Robusto

@jlliagre "You think there wasn't enough dog?" ???

jlliagre

15:34

@Robusto No. That would be assez de chien.

Robusto

OK, then what would be the punch line in English?

(This is the problem with understanding some French words.)

jlliagre

Sth like: Don't you think one Kant reader is enough?

In that comics, the dog is well know for reading Critique de la raison pure.

Kador (personnage)

Kador est un chien de fiction, qui a donné son nom à une série de bande dessinée du même nom, créé par Christian Binet. == Caractéristiques du personnage == C'est un chien intelligent et intellectuel, voire philosophe, capable de lire Kant dans le texte. Ses maîtres sont les Bidochon, qui se conduisent à son égard avec bêtise et méchanceté. == Caractéristiques de la série == La série, au ton nettement humoristique, est entièrement en noir et blanc, sauf la couverture. Dans le premier album l'auteur est particulièrement minimaliste (et pratique le second degré) dans les décors puisque, fatigué de...

Robusto

@jlliagre Oh, OK. So you have to have a background in the comic to understand all the ramifications.

Meaning: to get the joke.

jlliagre

15:59

@Robusto It helps but even not knowing it, we can see that the dog is fond about the book and sorrow about the man's behavior. A very wise dog with completely uncultured owners.

#WhenTaken #320 (12.01.2025)

I scored 926/1000👑

1️⃣📍5.2 m - 🗓️6 yrs - 🥇193/200
2️⃣📍958 km - 🗓️8 yrs - 🥈160/200
3️⃣📍1.2 km - 🗓️7 yrs - 🥇191/200
4️⃣📍712 m - 🗓️9 yrs - 🥇187/200
5️⃣📍998 m - 🗓️5 yrs - 🥇195/200

https://whentaken.com

Tightrope, a daily trivia game | Britannica

Jan. 12, 2025

T I G H T R O P E
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My Score: 1850

Wordle 1,303 3/6

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alphabet

16:23

@M.A.R. I assume "traditional medicine" has something to do with learning about the evils of Western science?

tchrist

@Araucaria-Him This guy is making my head hurt. Need to go for a walk and clear my head.

3

A: Syntactic analysis in English: correspondence between Italian "complements" and English ones

Adverbials vs Indirect Objects The short answer is these are called adverbial phrases or simply adverbials in English. These are also sometimes further classified into subtypes like temporal ones “of time”, locative ones “of place”, and many, many others. What Italian calls complementi indiretti ...

Too many fricking words for the same thing. I give up.

They are all from different models, and they misalign and mismatch.

tchrist

16:43

Actually, that is what I concluded with your original post (adverbials in English grammar do not distinguish between the logical and sentence levels that we refer to in Italian; thus, the models are indeed different and not comparable). E.g., in Italian we are referring to phrase (frase) only if it contains a verb (except from frasi nominali, noun phrases). So, for us three miles from here will be still an non direct object or complemento indiretto (it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complemento_(linguistica)) referring to the verb explode, and belonging to the subordinate. — jackb 9 mins ago

Head bangs.

Yes, a frase in Italian/Spanish/Portuguese mostly means a sentence in English. Sigh.

@jackb I still don't quite understand what you mean by "logical" and "sentence" level analysis. Are you trying to figure out the grammatical roles meaning the relationships between the syntactic constituents in one but merely the parts of speech of individual words in the other? And a "phrase" in English is not the same as a "clause" (which must contain a verb) let alone a "sentence" (which must contain a subject and a finite verb). These "false friends" between languages are really killing us here. — tchrist ♦ 5 mins ago

The guy is pretty advanced but all these collisions are too much for my small brain this morning.

I can use Wikipedia: [Period (sentence) analysis] studies [...] the sentence with multiple verbs formed by multiple simple sentences (propositions) [...]. The period is a complete sentence formed by one or more propositions connected to each other. Contrary to the logical analysis [...], the sentence analysis of the period is not aimed at specifying the various (indirect/direct) objects that can be present in the propositions, but rather the relationship between the different propositions that make up [each] period. (it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analisi_logica_del_periodo). — jackb 23 secs ago

wonders whether our friend is using evilly misleading automatic google translate of the italian page

Analisi logica del periodo

L'analisi logica del periodo, più comunemente definita analisi del periodo, è la disciplina che studia la sintassi della frase complessa, cioè quella frase con più verbi formata da più frasi semplici (proposizioni), chiamata per l'appunto, periodo. Il periodo è una frase compiuta formata da una o più proposizioni collegate fra loro. Contrariamente all'analisi logica della proposizione, l'analisi logica del periodo non è atta a specificare i vari complementi (espansioni) che possono essere presenti nelle proposizioni, ma piuttosto la relazione tra le diverse proposizioni che costituiscono il periodo...

You can't call prepositional phrases "sentences" in English. False friends.

⸘ "Period" 🙹

Robusto

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Daily Extreme Octordle #1084
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tchrist

periodo

== Italiano == === Sostantivo === periodo ( approfondimento) m sing (pl.: periodi) (fisica) (astronomia) ammontare di tempo più o meno lungo il periodo seguente al trasloco fu tremendo. il periodo attuale è il quaternario (grammatica) ogni frase di senso compiuto e completo oppure l'insieme di più frasi precedute da punteggiatura, con l'esclusione di virgole e simili (chimica) ciascuna delle righe della tavola periodica degli elementi chimici, dove questi ultimi sono disposti in base al massimo numero quantico principale dei loro elettroni (matematica) insieme di cifre dopo la virgola i...

> (grammatica) ogni frase di senso compiuto e completo oppure l'insieme di più frasi precedute da punteggiatura, con l'esclusione di virgole e simili

Statements?

YES!

This is what Spanish calls oraciones.

> 5. f. Gram. Estructura gramatical formada por la unión de un sujeto y un predicado.
Sin.: frase, proposición, cláusula.

phrase

Noun: phrase (plural phrases)

A short written or spoken expression.
Hypernym: syntagma
(grammar) A word or, more commonly, a group of words that functions as a single unit in the syntax of a sentence, always containing an expressed or implied head (the principal word or subgroup, with core importance) and often consisting of a head plus some other elaborating words.
Hypernym: utterance
Hyponyms: noun phrase, verb phrase, adjective phrase, adjectival phrase, adverb phrase, adverbial phrase, prepositional phrase, pronominal phrase; noun, verb, adjective, adverb, preposition, pronoun; term, word; adpositional phrase, antecedent phrase, bombard phrase, buzz-phrase, catchphrase, conjunctional phrase, consequent phrase, determiner phrase, filler phrase, fixed phrase, inflectional p…

Treachery abounds.

So Spanish can have an oración adjetiva or an oración adverbial and such, even a so-called oración completiva which is really an oración subordinada sustantiva. But I would hesitate to call all of those clauses. Certainly prepositional phrases are not such, howsoever adverbial or adjectival they may be.

"Noun Complements vs. Post-Nominal Modifiers" and all that jazz.

Araucaria - Him

17:45

@tchrist Yes, you've nailed the problem there.

jlliagre

18:57

@handan_toddler I finally talked to my neighbor, the math teacher. He told me that Bourbaki revolutionized French secondary school mathematics curriculum in the late sixties but then, in the mid eighties, there was a reaction that soften some of its radical changes. He also stated that the current Bourbaki works have no noticeable influence on secondary school mathematics.

GratefulDisciple

20:11

@Vikas On my phone, I can adjust the brightness to the level that I'm comfortable at. Also, if "nite mode" / "dark mode" (letters are white on black) suits you better, you can try that. On some apps (like the Kindle app) you can also adjust the font style, font size, line spacing, margin, etc. Acrobat reader has "liquid mode" that sometimes work for me (depending on the document).

I never used a Kindle device (not because I'm against it, just happened that way). Since I got my Samsung S9 (which has a high-res display) I like smartphone more rather than tablet because small letters look sharp enough and the weight of the device doesn't tire my arm. On a PC, I use a 24" IPS LCD monitor with bright enough LED backlit, and it's very comfortable to read for hours. That type of monitor is now mainstream enough to be affordable.

Oh, and on a phone, you can also turn on the setting to minimize blue light, if it's more comfortable for you.

M.A.R.

@alphabet no, guy's actually developed his own philosophy of science, and finds actually often compelling scientific-sounding reasons for why it's superior to 'Western' medicine, and that's because he himself has published several articles in various journals, so he's a far cry from your average quack. He's like an inside agent in that regard. So the class is often a mental exercise on why he's full of shit most of the time.

GratefulDisciple

21:40

@Vikas Yeah, if the book has a lot of figures & diagrams (like in a textbook), I would prefer to read on a tablet / computer of course.

@jlliagre Completely understandable.

alphabet

23:34

I only have CGEL in Kindle form and pretty much only read it on my laptop.

For the low, low price of $231.

Whenever I open it on my iPhone, the Kindle app crashes for some unknown reason.

jlliagre

@tchrist In French, what we call a phrase is close to what English calls a sentence but with less restrictions. A phrase usually includes a subject and a verb but isn't required to have any of them. It must start with an uppercase letter, end with a closing punctuation, have some sort of meaning but that's mostly it.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…