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03:00
The verbish thing can take more words to create a verbal phrase, and act as a unit.
You can have water boiling in a pot, or boiling water in a pot.
If the "in a pot" attaches to boiling, then boiling has to come afterwards.
@David: Do you understand now how it feels when people get "offended" at silly stuff, when it makes no sense?
Or you write boiling-in-a-pot water.
@tchrist You should really stop using "prefix" that was in a linguistic context...
You know what I mean.
I had to re-read.
03:02
Even after having been primed with postfix?
I thought perhaps you meant the -ing suffix.
That’s why I didn’t say suffix.
Postfix is not in my vocabulary.
I can fix that.
And so can you.
I would read it as a late fix.
03:03
That would be wrong.
And you know that.
Wrong is not a relevant category here. But never mind.
It would be wrong because it would not be the intended sense.
The gerund version comes afterwards.
Your complaint about the "whiny American girl" was really unjustified. No need to stoop to the other person's offence threshold.
The adjective version does not.
@tchrist ?
What gerund?
03:05
It was a teaching moment.
It does only so much good to use Latin labels on English words.
They are both -ing things.
What gerund are you talking about?
You are not talking about the sleeping-man question?
Yes.
No gerunds there.
Whatever.
All participles.
03:07
Again, it makes only so much sense to apply Latin labels to English.
Are you going to say that a gerund is a noun?
It really doesn’t matter what you call them.
If you don't know or don't care to use these terms the conventional way, then why bother at all?
When the -ing word is the head of a VP, it goes afterwards.
If it goes in front of the noun, there is no VP.
In any case, the question is, why would we prefer "there is a man fishing by the river bank" in ordinary contexts?
Or even "a man is fishing by the river bank".
I think the first issue that needs to be removed is that of the jarring echo of fisherman.
You cannot attach "by the river bank" to "fishing" if you put "man" between them.
We should use a different verb.
@tchrist Okay, but why would we need to?
03:12
You may have one man fishing by the river bank, and another fishing in the cove.
Try an active verb.
But why doesn't the sleeping man require "under the tree" attached to "sleeping"?
Yes, I was thinking the dreaded labels "static v. active" would come into play.
But I was trying to find a way around those vague categories.
Because there is a man beneath the tree who happens to be sleeping.
Why can't there be a man by the river who happens to be fishing?
The beneath the tree is describing where the man is, not where he is sleeping.
Yes.
But the question is, why?
03:15
Because that is the closer attachment point.
I don't understand that.
We need to test with a different active verb.
There is a man beneath the tree sleeping off the siesta.
You can’t move the VP to prefix position.
Ehh...
There is a sleeping-off-the-siesta man beneath the tree.
Nope.
That is different.
The nature of that constraint is clear.
It doesn't seem relevant here.
03:17
Try a different verb.
Writing?
Children playing in the street?
*There is a writing man under the tree.
Nope.
I would read that as a writing-man.
03:18
Which is why it doesn't work.
It is not a man for writing.
Like a special kind of man, a kind that habitually writes or something.
Nor a man of writing.
Yes.
So why does this not happen with sleeping?
I'm not buying the action thing, somehow.
It doesn't make sense.
Because sleeping is a ‘participial adjective’, and to do that with writing, you need things like writing desks. It won’t work for people.
It's probably more about adjectivisation.
Right.
03:19
One lets sleeping dogs lie.
There were playing children under the tree.
That’s a bit of a stretch.
Yeah.
But okay, it could work if you had to make it work.
But not as bad as writing.
I saw an old woman, a table, playing children.
03:20
Yes.
So perhaps this is a complex phenomenon.
If something is felt to be an adjective is positive, but only if the adjective still have the same meaning as the participle would normally have: otherwise it is negative.
A man singing old familiar songs cannot have the singing part moved.
Again, that is different.
@Cerberus Actually, Cerberus, I think that tchrist's reaction was quite justified, if slightly more severe than it needed to be. I don't see any "stooping". He was right.
If the participle has arguments, different restrictions apply.
@DavidWallace I see stooping.
I hope he was joking.
03:23
You shouldn’t treat people poorly just because you don’t find their accent to be in your prestige set.
There was no apparent connection between the accent and the whininess of the girl in David's line.
2. He clarified his intentions, which should have been more than enough.
There was no whining.
And he had to add American, as though that made it worse.
Wait, are you guys still arguing about whether some girl's voice is whiny?
That is not right.
3. It is fine to call an accent "whining". We are allowed to attach aesthetic qualities to accents. No deeper social attitudes need be supposed.
03:25
Oh?
@Mechanicalsnail Hi. I'm afraid we started again.
Then why wouldn’t he give her the time of day? Because her accent annoyed him.
It’s a prestige problem.
1
Q: Is "quaver" a blend word of "quake" and "waver"?

archenooquaver 1400–50; late Middle English quaveren (v.), blend of quake and waver1 but wiktionary has another statement: quaver From Middle English quaveren, frequentative form of quaven, cwavien (“to tremble”), equivalent to quave +‎ -er. Cognate with Low German quabbeln (“to quiver”), Ge...

@Cerberus Okay. I'm getting my headphones.
I'm voting to close this.
03:27
4. If you want to forbid people from disliking someone for her accent, then you should forbid people from disliking anyone for any reason, because why would any reason be better or worse than another?
@Mechanicalsnail Wise. But it will end as suddenly as it recommenced.
@tchrist Have you ever listened to yourself?
@Cerberus ?
@Cerberus Why should I? Nobody else does.
@Mechanicalsnail That was a nasty typo, sorry.
@tchrist Do you feel that you do not express a certain lack of perceived prestige in various people and things they do?
I have seen no end of British people sneering at Americans simply because of our accents. I am no more likely to tolerate it in British wannabes, either.
@Mahnax < Early ME. cwavien, prob. repr. an OE. *cwafian, of parallel formation to cwacian quake; for the stem cf. quiver v.
May 19 at 10:07, by David Wallace
@MattЭллен Yeah, NZ is also very racially diverse. As far as I can tell, I'm 1/2 English, 1/4 Scottish, 1/16 Irish and 3/16 German. So I'm purely European. But again, most NZers have quite a mix of non-European in them, as well as having ancestors who have arrived at different times in NZ's short history.
03:32
@Mahnax That is a fine question! Why on earth would you close it?
@Cerberus Uh, his own links answer it?
@Mahnax They don't!
@Cerberus That so?
If I can't understand what you mean, then how is this GR?
03:33
His Dictionary.com link says the same thing as the Wiktionary link does. Plus, Etymonline says practically the same thing as well.
Dictionary.com gives two different etymologies, as far as I can see.
Aside from the quake+waver nonsense, that is.
This is certainly not GR.
Why do you say "nonsense"?
Because it smells like nonsense.
Thank you.
03:34
Why?
No cites, plenty of reasonable alternate explanation.
If you have a good reason to discard the first etymology, then post it in an answer. I will be interested to read it.
Thus smells of folk etymology.
OED, Etymonline, Wiktionary, and Dictionary.com all say that it's not the first etymology.
No offence, but this sounds very unscientific.
03:35
I don’t see what is to disbelieve about the OED et I posted above.
I can't find any other sources that list quake+waver as the etymology.
Ergo I dismiss quake+waver as nonsense.
@Mahnax Dictionary.com does not, but, OK, the OED is a more reliable source. So post that.
@Cerberus You want me to post an answer?
Yes?
He can’t.
Kit will be all over his ass.
03:37
I voted to close. Etiquette, man.
Because what you are saying is not "answered by his own links".
@Cerberus OK, fine. I lied.
All these damned crowd-sourced things are unverifiable.
He is asking for a more reliable source to decide. So the OED will do, although a more thorough etymological dictionary would be preferable in a top-notch answer.
03:38
It needs citations or it didn’t happen.
Is Dictionary.com crowd-sourced?
A. 1225 St. Marher. 19 ― Al þe eorðe··bigon to cwakien [B. ant to cwauien].
1687 Miege Grt. Fr. Dict. ii, ― To Quave. As to quave with fat.
1430-40 Lydg. Bochas ᴠɪɪɪ. viii. (1558) fol. vi, ― Whose double whele quauereth euer in dout.
Hm, bogo-Dutch....
quiver — Prob. onomatopœic: cf. quiver a. and the vbs. quave, quaver. The existence of an obs. Dutch kuyveren, given by Kilian as meaning ‘to quiver’, is not otherwise authenticated.
> kuyven, kuyveren. j. huyveren. Tremere, horrere, frigutire K.
A.H. Hoffmann von Fallersleben, Horae Belgicae (twaalf delen). Rodopi, Amsterdam 1968 (fotomechanische herdruk van uitgave 1837-1857)
Are you authenticating? :)
Gah, Kosmo was here today and I missed him?
Tch.
makes other noises of disapproval
03:50
@tchrist Trying to, but I can only find the word in dictionaries.
And it's not in the WNT.
@Mahnax So did I, alas.
Interesting.
@Cerberus Oh, that is truly unfortunate.
'Tis.
I also tried kuyven, cuyveren, and cuyven.
But no luck.
Nor with cuiven and cuiveren.
Well, don’t feel bad that you couldn’t authenticate something the OED didn’t manage to.
Many new sources have since been digitised.
03:53
True.
And that guy may have researched this particular entry long before the WNT was finished.
It's funny how work on the OED and the WNT started around the same time, and yet the OED was finished in half the time.
Took only 60 years.
The OED is finished?
:)
As finished as can be.
The WNT is freely accessible on line.
People are forever antedating things.
And continually updated.
I don't even know whether a physical copy of the WNT can be bought anywhere.
03:57
Did you know that one cannot dedicate a work to the Crown without the Crown’s permission?
Which Crown?
And what does the dedication entail?
In this case, I was thinking of the OED2 to ER.
@tchrist Alaska is funny.
ER? Elizabeth...?
@Cerberus Yes.
@Mechanicalsnail Meaning?
03:58
What is the R for? Royal? Regina? Reine?
@DavidWallace Okay, I listened to it, and the verdict is...
@tchrist See the map in the message I replied to.
@Mechanicalsnail I did. What kind of funny?
What happens if I type "I dedicate this line to Her Royal Highness Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom"?
Or whatever her proper titles would be in this situation.
@Cerberus Her minions will doubtless flag it.
Hah.
Then again, everybody's minions are flagging everything all the time here.
04:00
@tchrist The counties are different, unlike most other states.
Okay, so it's bed time.
Good night.
@Mechanicalsnail NOT WHINY
Night.
@Mechanicalsnail Wisconsin has differently colored counties.
@tchrist Yes, but it's fairly cleanly split down the middle. Alaska looks like a jumble.
I don’t know what the big green other is in Alaska.
@Mechanicalsnail You replied to yourself?
04:05
@tchrist Yes
Oh gosh, I have to go to bed.
@Mechanicalsnail Like this
Alaska colonization pattern may have been different than in other states with even boundaries.
@Mechanicalsnail And this
@tchrist Probably just noise from a lack of data. The northern and western counties are practically uninhabited.
@Mechanicalsnail a
There are plenty of purple no-data counties in the southwest of the main section.
Look in Texas, for example.
Also NM, UT, NV.
So those got colored purple for no-data.
04:10
@tchrist Also sparsely populated. Same for the westernmost counties in Texas.
But only the long peninsula of Alaska is purple. I wonder why.
@tchrist I think that's just one county. Probably low population.
Aleutians East Borough: population 2744
Lake and Peninsula Borough: 1823
and Aleutians West Census Area: 5465
04:28
@Carlo_R.: Meow
@Mech Hello, how are you?
@Carlo_R. Fine; you?
04:58
1
Q: Etymology and meaning of "navy file"?

Brian HooperI've been reading Heinlein's Starship Troopers in which the crews of the starships are referred to by the Mobile Infantry as "Navy files". This appears to be an affectionately derisory term. I was wondering, is this name used by real members of the army or marines to refer to navy people, and if ...

0
A: Etymology and meaning of "navy file"?

Brookya file is a prostitute. Cockney rhyming slang from the 18th century. 'FILE. File is slang for a shrewd or artful person. File is slang for a pickpocket. .... ' which most of them were.

I think they’ve missed the boat.
 
2 hours later…
Jez
Jez
06:47
Hey, guys. I have a question to Americans here. Do you feel happy/unhappy/threatened/unthreatened about the encroachment of Spanish in the US? The way I see it, central and southern America already speak Spanish, so it's a bit much for them to want to bring it en masse to NA as well. What are your thoughts?
will English as we know it die off slowly to other languages whose native spakers feel a stronger need to maintain their language's being spoken (particularly Spanish)?
@Jez Is this true? There are a lot of monolingual English-speaking Hispanics, and it's not like Welsh/Basque/Irish/etc. where it's a minority language people feel is an endangered part of the cultural identity.
Nobody feels Spanish isn't dying out.
Jez
Jez
well i just heard a BBC news report on the future of the US basically being Spanish/Spanglish
@Mechanicalsnail I mean 'is'
Jez
Jez
it seems a bit much to me that they already speak it ALL across central and southern America, but that's not good enough - they need to drag it into North America too to "maintain their cultural roots" :-)
i didn't used to, but now I understand why some Americans get so pissed off about this.
I think a country generally functions best with one official language.
sure, you can learn others for speaking to foreigners, but the country itself should have one
@Jez There are lots of countries where most people speak a language other than the official language.
Jez
Jez
06:54
anyway, im just putting it out there as a topic of conversation as i have to go to work now. please star my first message, @Mechanicalsnail ;-)
2
<-- AFK
 
4 hours later…
11:06
0
Q: Difference b/w "Await" and "Wait"

R11GDifference b/w "Await" and "Wait" Also do tell when to use which and when.

11:56
@Cerberus Obviously a fucking asshole is different from an asshole fucking.
English is such a versatile language.
12:08
> The Nazi propaganda film Der ewige Jude (The Eternal Jew) was envisioned by Joseph Goebbels as an understated and subtle (by the standards of Nazi Propaganda) demonstration of the "evils" of Jewry, in keeping with Goebbels' (mostly correct) theory that the best propaganda was primarily entertainment and not obviously political.
> However, Hitler demanded more polemical material, such as laughably (even to the Nazis) crude comparisons of Jews to rats. It was a box-office flop, and some viewers fainted at the crudity.
Executive meddling strikes again!
@Jez I think it's fun. I don't consider it an encroachment. I think it is funny that Europeans have an incredible diversity of language and yet Americans think it is perfectly normal that we should have just one dominant language, given that both regions are approximately the same size (although Europe has about twice the population).
'Then you should say what you mean,' the March Hare went on.
'I do,' Alice hastily replied; 'at least — at least I mean what I say — that's the same thing, you know.'
'Not the same thing a bit!' said the Hatter. 'You might just as well say that "I see what I eat" is the same thing as "I eat what I see"!'
'You might just as well say,' added the March Hare, 'that "I like what I get" is the same thing as "I get what I like"!'
'You might just as well say,' added the Dormouse, who seemed to be talking in his sleep, 'that "I breathe when I sleep" is the same thing as "I sleep when I breathe"!'
We have the expression in my family "I heard what you meant" which I am quite fond of.
@Jez Is there really an encroachment?
12:23
laughs My littlest son just ran down the hall yelling the eldest's name "Come back, I want to kick you!"
@Robusto Yeah, that was me. Top Seller 1988.
@KitFox I like the honesty.
Yeah. It makes discipline easier.
"Why did you bite your brother?"
"It was my turn."
"I see. Well, biting is not nice."
"It was *my turn*."
Kids are impossible. It's been clinically proven. You can't hope to win the game, you can only hope to survive.
It's particularly cute because he doesn't speak very well yet, but he's trying really hard to use complete sentences.
12:33
So it sounds kind of like "coh bah i aunt ick ooo"
12:48
@KitFox Easy for you to say.
You won't believe how typical that really is.
In fact probably the first thing that strikes a Russian abroad is the complete absence of puddles. It's inconceivable to a Russian mind.
We have puddles here! Lots of them! I have three in my driveway right now!
Some of my best friends are puddles!

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