English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

15:00

The strictly taboo words of the 21st century are no longer profanities nor obscenities; they are slurs. Merely saying or writing them can and often does trigger a complete loss of station: job, reputation, etc. In some cases you may even be procecuted.

Mitch

@MattE.Эллен for the n-word... or what other slurs?

Matt E. Эллен

@Mitch they searched for the n-word (unbowdlerised), but I am not aware of other searches they did

tchrist

Where previous generations mandatorily renamed all cocks to be roosters so as not to offend people, today we rename gypsy moths.

The Victorians renaming fowl breasts and thighs to be white meat and dark meat seems prosaic to us now. And we're switching all those back the other way now for reverse reasons.

Matt E. Эллен

gotta keep up with the times

tchrist

For fouler reasons, even.

pace Fowler.

The thing about taboos is that you aren't even allowed to do anything that would bring them to mind. That's why they're taboo. This is different from all the rest of the categories. You can't write or gesture and bowdlerize them away because you still make people think of the thing which is taboo, so those are also all forbidden.

Matt E. Эллен

15:11

any choice we make is violence one way or another

tchrist

I've known people who were serial victims of certain kinds of violence against them who became triggered even by indirect references to all that.

You wouldn't want to make them suffer if you could help it.

Maybe this is unfair, but think of it like how we don't get free peanuts on airplane flights any longer.

Because if you let that continue, now and then the rare person will have a catastrophically bad outcome from exposure to it even in the general vicinity.

Even Satan himself gets a court-appointed lawyer.

Consider the whole "trigger warning" thing, but please try not to snigger.

Matt E. Эллен

@tchrist that's a good way to think about it

tchrist

We _do_ still have a lot of slurs in our titles, though.

Cerberus

15:26

> This is a hill I'm prepared to die on.

You are gravely upsetting people.

Please stop.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus I'm upsetting people by asking the question?

tchrist

> WASHINGTON - Young people immersed in the online world see racist and sexist slurs and other name-calling that probably would appall their parents and teachers. And most consider it no big deal, a poll says.

I'll let you find that one yourselves.

On our site.

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен Yes.

tchrist

Somehow slurs are different from coarse slang in today's world.

Cerberus

I actually felt slightly nauseous, so much did it upset me, seriously.

It is so offensive to me, such an attack on everything that I hold dear.

Matt E. Эллен

15:33

the ability to spell out the n-word is something you hold dear?

tchrist

@Cerberus Those are very nearly the words used by users who have left the site because of being triggered by seeing certain words here.

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен Yes.

But I think you understand what I mean.

It's not about a particular word, of course.

@tchrist I'm sure they are.

Maybe it is because I'm tired.

tchrist

@Cerberus Is today still Sunday for you?

Cerberus

No.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus so I cannot ask if it is OK to consider a different course of action. I thought this was an academic site. no topics should be out of bounds. apparently we've found another boundary of academic discussion

Cerberus

15:36

@MattE.Эллен You can, but it is seriously upsetting.

It's up to you to consider whether that's worth it.

tchrist

I researched all this to at least a medium depth several weeks ago, spending several hours on it a day for the better part of a week. I reached no firm, defensible conclusions of my own, only opinions now more strongly held than before.

Matt E. Эллен

@Cerberus you have close vote privileges

Cerberus

@MattE.Эллен What about them?

tchrist

The Guardian's position on the experience of cop-outs.

Cerberus

Honestly, I don't want to read about this stuff any more.

It just upsets me.

tchrist

15:41

> The Guardian's guidelines on [REDACTED] say that when it is felt to be necessary to quote their use then they should be spelt out. In those circumstances the use of asterisks, in the editor's words, is a cop-out.

Cerberus

I don't want to be exposed to this endless barrage, and thankfully I can usually avoid it.

Matt E. Эллен

endless?

this is one post

Cerberus

Not you personally.

But it is there on the Internet.

This is one item in it.

I'm a happier AND better man not reading conflictive stuff online.

It brings out the worst in me AND makes me feel in the worst way.

I don't want to read Twitter.

Matt E. Эллен

well, I whole heartedly agree with you abou Twitter

Cerberus

Yay.

So I would be very happy if that stuff could not be repeated here.

And I'm sure it is with the best of intentions.

tchrist

15:45

Which stuff, arguments about what you must or must not say?

Or just coarse language in general?

Cerberus

@tchrist This, and constantly forcing people to be aware of what minority groups they might belong to.

The combination is terrible.

tchrist

Ahah. Yes. You must always speak in a way that recognizes all possible groups.

Even when not germane.

Cerberus

I'd rather be called a faggot once a year than having to read about how I am different because I am gay every single day.

tchrist

This is at its worst in Academia here.

Cerberus

I just want to be a human being.

tchrist

15:47

You said the f word!

Cerberus

What word?

tchrist

I can't remember. There's a hole in my mind where the word was. I think it may have been feel.

Matt E. Эллен

feelings are the real taboo

tchrist

Barry Manilow.

Matt E. Эллен

My nose isn't that big

tchrist

15:53

That's racist.

Gepetto was a jerk.

Cerberus

By the way, I recently made the acquaintance of an intersexual man from Malta, which was a pretty interesting conversation. A very rare minority, too. Intersexual and Maltese. When I went to Wikipaedia to look up intersexuality, the first picture was of a conference of intersexuals, on Malta.

And, what are the chances: he was not in the picture.

I wonder what Bayes would have to say about that.

Matt E. Эллен

not enough priors to know for sure

Cerberus

I suppose not.

tchrist

> Ganz zeitgeistig und zeitgemäß gibt es das Menü auch in vegetarischer Form mit Quinoa-Salat statt Fisch und Blumenkohlrisotto mit (sic!)Babyspinat statt der Ente.

Cerberus

Ente?

tchrist

15:57

Walks like a ___, talks like a ___.

Cerberus

It says 2 to 5 in 10,000 for intersexuality.

tchrist

@Cerberus That's probably about right.

But it all depends on definitions.

Cerberus

Statistics must be more reliable than for e.g. homosexuality, let alone bisexuality.

@tchrist This is about actually having different body parts than you'd expect.

Which he had.

tchrist

@Cerberus Oh, I know.

@Cerberus That's because one is a physical measurement and the other two are merely figments of social imagination.

Cerberus

Well, I think they can often be identified in the brain already.

So not really figments.

tchrist

16:00

It's really very complicated.

Cerberus

Quite.

tchrist

Group identities are social constructs. They are not real.

Cerberus

A group is no more than a number of people, or need not be.

It can be a useful word.

By the way, my parents' young cats are quite fat.

Especially Apollo.

I made my parents promise to feed them less.

We looked up how many kcal a cat is supposed to eat, and how much that is when you put the food in the bowl.

tchrist

Even "middle-aged white man" may also be a social construct yet can be useful. But it can also be tedious if you get browbeat [sic] with it as others become dismissive of your opinions and personhood merely because you "self-identify" as a "middle-aged white man", which I'm sure you do.

@Cerberus Young and fat, not old and fat? That's less common.

Cerberus

That's terrible.

To identify is to say that you and the picture on your passport refer to the same object, to wit, you.

@tchrist They are about to turn 1.

They will eat whatever you give them, and they are given too much.

tchrist

16:08

I have grown too indulgent by half.

Cerberus

My friend's cat got diabetes.

Because she fed him to much.

And she doesn't want to see that that was the reason.

He was very fat.

I told my parents about him several times.

CowperKettle

I always tell off my mom for constantly feeding Nelson. He is fat.

Cerberus

Having to inject two cats every 8 hours, every day, should be enough of a horror scenario for them to stop overfeeding.

@CowperKettle It's also because many people have a wrong idea of what a healthy cat should look like.

CowperKettle

It's so easy. I even put a post-it note on the fridge that says how many grams of wet food is enough per day.

Cerberus

@CowperKettle Good.

CowperKettle

16:16

230 cal/day is enough

Cerberus

Probably.

And, if he is too fat, less.

CowperKettle

nods

CowperKettle

16:37

Genes that appear to play a role in some birds’ ability to learn songs are frequently mutated in autistic people, according to a new study.

> Who is guilty in the crisis on the border between Poland and Belarus? (1600 Russians were asked across 100+ towns and villages)

American authorities: 22%

European authorities: 32%

Polish authorities: 30%

Belarusian authorities: 12%

German authorities: 8%

Cerberus

@CowperKettle You should tell her the story of my friend's diabetic cat and ask her how she would feel about getting insuline and injecting her cat every 8 hours.

CowperKettle

I should ))

Cerberus

@CowperKettle Oh, the Americans did it, clearly.

CowperKettle

As always. Americans are always doing something evil, especially on the border between Poland and Belarus.

Cerberus

Especially there.

CowperKettle

16:47

I have friends who believe that US soldiers fought in the east of Ukraine in 2014

Cerberus

I don't think they did.

CowperKettle

"Because it's really a war between the US and Russia, and Ukraine is only a puppet of the USA"

Cerberus

But there was a pro-Russian government there shortly before the war.

CowperKettle

"Because the USA wants to establisht he rule of the Golden Billion all over the planet Earth".

Seriously.

Golden billion

The golden billion (Russian: золотой миллиард, tr. zolotoy milliard) is a term, in the Russian-speaking world, referring to the relatively wealthy people in industrially developed nations, or the West. == Explanation == According to Sergey Kara-Murza, the golden billion consumes the lion's share of all resources on the planet. If at least half of the global population begins to consume resources to the same extent, these resources wouldn't be sufficient. This is partly based on the ideas of Thomas Malthus, in that emphasis is placed on the scarcity of natural resources. However, whereas Malthus...

Cerberus

I doubt whether any American commandos could have moved in between the revolt and the war, let alone soldiers.

CowperKettle

16:50

Russians believe that the West wants to stifle Russia, strip it of resources, so that the Golden Billion (the population of the US, Europe, UK) would have a good life.

Cerberus

Maybe the American oligarchs would if they could.

CowperKettle

Because "Anglo-Saxons" are a wily lot. (англо-саксы)

Cerberus

But there is absolutely no way that they could.

CowperKettle

It's similar to the German belief in the worldwide jewish plot. Russians believe in the Golden Billion, since all Jews have run out of Russia

If the Yellowstone blows up and kills all the USA, we will find some other bugbear.

Cerberus

I think this plot is slightly less crazy, because Western multinationals do like to colonise and exploit.

Mitch

16:54

Colonize?

Cerberus

But it's still crazy in that there is absolutely no way that they could do it.

@Mitch Buy up stuff in poor countries and exploit them.

Mitch

is that what colonization is?

Cerberus

And it's not just Western companies that do this: the Chinese government and companies are now doing it even more so than Western ones, I think.

Mitch

I wouldn't call what China is doing 'colonization'

Cerberus

It is a tiny bit of a metaphor.

CowperKettle

16:57

For some reason China is building and investing heavily in infrastructure in Central Asia and in Africa

Cerberus

But it comes somewhat close.

Mitch

@Cerberus a lot of metaphor

Cerberus

Not a lot.

If you buy the port of Colombo and force the Sri Lankan government to do what you want, I would say that comes close to actual colonisation?

Mitch

Spain colonized the Phillppines, the US didn't

Cerberus

Why not?

Mitch

16:59

@Cerberus Oh. I wouldn't use 'colonize' for that at all. It's nefarious surely but colonizing, no.

Cerberus

Why not?

I would say there are two or perhaps three types of colonisation: trade colonies, exploitation, and settlement.

Mitch

The US certainly -occupied- P, but I don't think of it as a colony.

Cerberus

Each involves gaining power over a place far away from the home country.

Mitch

I always associate colonization with settlement.

Cerberus

Settlement to what extent?

Mitch

17:01

those other two are surely control and exploitation

@Cerberus yeah, that's vague.

Cerberus

Any extension of power normally involves moving a number of your people there to control what's happening there in situ.

I would say a trading post that exerts some power over the local society/land has elements of colonialism.

Cerberus

17:36

> De patiëntaantallen zijn nog klein en de opmars van de Omikronvariant is nog maar net begonnen. Maar toch: de eerste tekenen wijzen op een milder ziekteverloop.

> ...een nog niet gepubliceerde Zuid-Afrikaanse studie van 2 december. Die concludeerde, op basis van bijna 3 miljoen besmettingen, dat de kans op besmetting na een vaccinatie of eerdere infectie bij Omikron drie keer zo hoog is als bij Delta.

Mitch

And then there is occupation. and military control. and military presence. So American military bases in your country is not colonization (though of course that can happen).

Cerberus

I think my draft definition's "gaining power over a place" is key.

Mitch

So I don't call American invasion and occupation (and presumably exploitation of oil?) of Iraq to be colonization.

Cerberus

Maybe a little bit.

Although I suppose colonies suggestion a longer duration.

Mitch

like a bunch of people from the occupying country have to go live in there.

'a bunch' is kinda vague though

Michael Rybkin

19:04

youtube.com/watch?v=wU7kTvhuQ3E#t=56s Check the CHARGED out of the balloon (does she say "charged"?)

Cerberus

19:44

@MichaelRybkin "Check the charged outer balloon".

I think the outer balloon is charged when there is enough pressure inside it or in the tubes/chambers that feed into it, so that it will protrude when the proximal handle is pushed forward.

Or something.

Michael Rybkin

20:03

@Cerberus Thank you very much.

Cerberus

20:31

@MichaelRybkin It is indeed hard to follow, with the monotonous voice (computer?) and the abstruse subject.

Michael Rybkin

21:00

@Cerberus I totally agree with you.

@Cerberus It is probably indeed a computer-generated voice.

Cerberus

Are you into medical stuff?

Mitch

21:45

@MichaelRybkin yes, 'charged outer balloon' as @Cerberus says

But it doesn't sound computer generated to me. much too dynamic in comparison to computer generated voices, and CGV tends to have some dysfluencies (vowels, stress, word boundaries) that a trained human just doesn't have, and this clip seems fine.

Now I'm wondering why it says 'charged outer balloon'. They mention inner and outer balloons, but nothing about charging anything.

A ye...they say earlier 'Charge the device by...'

adamaero

22:03

Quick question

Is this a run-on sentence:

Some strict Christians seem to not do well at all in regards to longevity if celebrity Christians are any indication?

Cerberus

@Mitch I think, if the device is not charged, and you push the handle, nothing happens, i.e. the outer balloon will not protrude.

@adamaero No.

It's just a main clause with a subordinate ("if") clause.

The sentence is a bit awkward.

adamaero

It annoys me.

A similar sentence was posted in a forum where every claim needs to be backed by peer-reviewed research.

So this person makes a claim, but guises it as a question in order to get out of substantiating their claim.

Mitch

22:22

@adamaero I think the use of '?' at the end of a sentence that normally would be considered a plain statement is considered 'uptalk', intoning it like it's a question, but it just puts some slight doubt on the sentence, not actually turning it into a question.

It could very well be a way to avoid substantiation. But I think that is a reasonable thing to do if you don't have time to find a reference. It'd just a guess or hypothesis then.

Isn't that a bit much to expect every statement to necessarily have peer reviewed references behind it? I mean... it'd be nice, but sometime we just remember things we think are facts but can't remember how we came to know it.

Also a run-on sentence is not necessarily an error in logic or in grammar, it's just poor composition and could probably be better said by splitting up into multiple statements.

Somewhat relevantly...

I just found out...

by reading a post...

that...

old people really love to use ellipses.

adamaero

It's a loaded question

Mitch

@adamaero I don't know the context but sure.

adamaero

Every claim related to the topic of the forum needs to be backed by reference

Mitch

Isn't hard to write anything in that forum?

or have a conversation?

adamaero

Quite easy

Mitch

22:28

everything would have to be a mini-dissertation

adamaero

nope

Mitch

I mean... it'd be pretty hard to do on Mathematics

and those are actual facts.

@adamaero Is the topic hermeneutics?

or sociology?

adamaero

Nutrition

reddit.com/r/ScientificNutrition

Mitch

OK got it.

there's a lot of ... factoidal stuff out there so I can see that there'd be a need for some discipline.

But the reddit is not much of a conversation. just commenting

adamaero

There are unsubstantiated claims all the time. But generally those are not... bold, silly or grey areas.

And I do see folks link dumping research that really does not substantiate their claim.

Michael Rybkin

22:43

@Cerberus No, I'm not really into medical things. I was simply watching this video as part of my English language study routine.

Cerberus

22:59

Ah, I see.

A difficult routine!

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