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15:00
Brake seems like a new ELLer in the making
Speaking of Brakes.
howdy @Mahnax!
@cornbreadninja Hullo!
@Mahnax how was Terrible Tuesday?
So I'm in a pickle.
6
Q: When should we use "can", "could", "will", "would"?

user2457Most of the people says I wish I could, I wish you would. Can't we use I wish I can, I wish you will? I'd like to know what the main difference between the usage of can/will and could/would is.

0
Q: How to use would or could in English?

newcomer Possible Duplicate: When should we use “can”, “could”, “will”, “would”? I am not a native English speaker and this would/could thing always bothers me. Please give some example + explanation on this. Sorry if the question is too naive.

The second one is closed as a dupe of the first.
15:09
@cornbreadninja Fairly awful at first, but then I went to wash dishes and everything was fine.
@Mahnax nice!
But OP says the second was the one that actually answered the question.
Can they be merged?
@cornbreadninja I would say so, yeah.
Plus, the first has no accepted answer.
15:10
@KitFox And what does it feel like?
@ΜετάEd I dunno.
@ΜετάEd Briny.
@Reg, what do I do here?
@KitFox Must be a dilly.
I don't know what happens when questions get merged.
@KitFox they can consummate the merger if they choose.
15:11
@KitFox it's like exiling a card in Magic the Gathering - you can see it but can't do anything to it.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 nice. Is that tape floss?
@cornbreadninja Oh. Goodness. Perhaps I shouldn't do that alone on my first attempt then.
@KitFox You could always use Protection.
@cornbreadninja It's the white lego rope with the little embedded bars.
15:12
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 neat!
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 when did Lego get rope?
Oh, Nortonn is still around?
Probably.
I hadn't seen any questions of his for a little while, until just now.
@MattЭллен ages ago
15:14
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 huh. is it normal Lego, or part of Technic?
Normal.
and the variant without the embedded bars is older I think
@KitFox all answers and comments get transferred from one question to the other. That can result in a helluva work overhead. Haven't looked at the two questions at hand.
@RegDwightАΑA They do seem to cover slightly different territory. I wonder if we should undupe them?
15:18
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 wow. actual thread
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I had pieces like that in my Lego collection, back in the day.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 1.5m!
I had a castle set from the 80s that had string for its drawbridge.
15:21
I had a set with string too. I think it was a tow truck.
That 1982 tow truck looks puny next to the 2006 update
Threads are for losers. Chains is where it's at. peeron.com/inv/parts/208c01
@RegDwightАΑA It'd be a bit odd if Spiderman spun chains instead of threads though.
See, I did say "loser".
he'd be a lot more metal!
15:27
\m/
Oh, there was a superhero with chains...
the darkness? no he has the darkness
Spawn
What was his name? They were attached to his forearms and he could retract them.
Oh right. Spawn.
15:28
@MattЭллен even the 2001 Sopwith Camel looks meh and has fewer functionality compared to the 2012 update.
Spawn is hawt.
@RegDwightАΑA ooo. much shinier
Also pricier.
@KitFox and more metal than spidey
@KitFox it has like 1.7 times more parts.
In rarer colors.
15:31
= things parents hate.
Well, not me.
speaking of cyborgs
I mean. Expensive, tiny, rare parts are hateful when you have small children who love LEGO.
But can't keep the pieces from coming off when they are playing with them.
I read this morning about this guy who doesn't have colour vision, but has an implant that hangs across his face and screws into his skull (at the back) that turns hue and saturation into sound
15:33
Just look at this beauty. And the functionality.
OMG, I know that guy!
If I didn't have colour vision I would totally go in for that
he can hear in infrared and ultra violet
Oh! moving flaps!
From the joystick, no less.
I NO RITE!?
15:37
Holy crap, now I must have that model
It's the same guy who also dun the Tower Bridge which I am working on right now.
I love how in the video he explains that they're specifically introducing certain parts in new colours
Yeah those videos are usually quite interesting. Not just full frontal advertising.
Way too few of them around, sadly.
OK, maybe I don't know him. That was really mind-hurting though.
The most mind-hurting video to me is still this one:
That... thing... can do everything. And then some.
15:43
That guy is REALLY talking RIGHT TO the afol community, isn't he?
> I’ve given up entirely on the calendar, because it’s terrible. Changing to a week or day view requires a right click to make the control interface appear. I can’t work out how to edit an appointment, nor can I work out how to delete an appointment. There’s no way to show events from just one calendar. I think it may well be easier to alter my own birthday than to edit when it’s currently set for in the Windows 8 calendar. I really want to be making this up.
Re Win 8 Calendar app.
Well, I guess I'm convinced. I'll stay away from Windows 8
@KitFox i'm running it on my laptop. i've had relatively few problems with it.
by which i mean "no problems at all, once i got used to it"
It sounds sucky.
it's definitely designed for tablets
That's something I really hate about the iPad–if I'm running an 'app,' I can't switch without leaving the 'app' but also there's not usually an option to just quit, so I have no idea what's running in the background at any given time.
15:50
Why are you running Win 8?
@Cerberus just for fun
Why is that person complaining? Does windows even HAVE a calendar app before 8?
Who effing needs calendar apps?
Honest question.
Well, I use the Android one all the time.
15:51
@KitFox some of these complaints seem odd to me. like, sure, it's hard to switch between apps with the mouse, but who does that? alt+tab works fine.
But if it sucked, I just would get a different one.
It's like on my phone, where I had to download an app (gah I hate saying that word) to kill my running apps, because nobody fucking puts off switches on things anymore.
@JSBձոգչ most people.
@JSBձոգչ Oh, you can still use alt+tab? Well, still.
@KitFox You're not supposed to need to worry about running apps. The OS takes care of it for you.
15:51
@KitFox At least in Android, the idea is that the OS manages task-switching and background processes smartly and without any need for you to get involved.
@JSBձոգչ most people don't know Alt or Tab exist, let alone where on their keyboard.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, I guess it doesn't because I've always got crazy weird shit running.
@KitFox because the OS has decided that it doesn't matter if it's running.
@KitFox Thank you!! At last someone else who hates this ineffable word.
15:52
What's wrong with "app"?
But what if I want to quit out of it and restart it?
I don't know, I hate it.
@KitFox normally you should never need to do such a thing.
Really? Why not?
@KitFox Yes, sometimes that is needed. I have set a "kill process" gesture on my phone, which I use perhaps once a week.
I only need it when an application malfunctions in some way, or is badly designed, i.e. won't return to some default view or something.
15:54
Given that the solution for 95% of all computer issues is to reboot, why are we eliminating that function?
@KitFox i think they're trying to suppress that reflex
It makes no sense and surprisingly seems to be making me very angry suddenly!
Download some kind of manual task-killer than you can invoke with some gesture or button. But don't use automatic task-killers!
Oh, wait. checks calendar Never mind.
Because keeping stuff in RAM doesn't cost much energy any more on mobile devices, while booting applications does.
So it's better to keep as many in RAM as possible.
15:56
@KitFox Well, you shouldn't need to reboot your computer either. I never reboot mine unless there's an update. I never reboot my main phone or my tablet.
I need to reboot when I change the permissions given to applications through Permissions Denied, for example.
Nope, nope. putting it down, walking away
There are always cases where you need to reboot.
But they are fairly rare.
@Cerberus That doesn't count, because that app violates the design principles of the OS in order to get its job done.
Yes, of course it does. But what do you mean by "doesn't count"?
15:58
@Cerberus I mean it doesn't count that you have to reboot to do that. The OS designers don't have to make it easy for you to do tasks that you're not supposed to do.
Count towards what?
I'm just describing a scenario where you will want to reboot.
So if you have to force-kill an app whose memory model you've just manipulated on your rooted phone, it doesn't matter that force-killing apps is by-design difficult to do on phones. You're not supposed to need to do it. The fact that YOU need to do it doesn't matter.
@Cerberus No, a scenario where you as a highly non-typical user will want to reboot. Just to be clear.
> it doesn't matter that force-killing apps is by-design difficult to do on phones.
It's not very hard, and who said it mattered? (I didn't.)
@Cerberus well, it's much harder than closing apps on a PC. PC apps have a little X you click on. phone apps have nothing.
You just long-press an application in the task switcher, => App info => Force close.
16:01
@Cerberus I didn't even know you could do that.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 A bit harder, yes.
OK.
@Cerberus in usability terms, it's much harder. Normal users will never figure it out.
I suppose it is not very obvious. But surely you knew you could kill an application from the "Apps" settings?
As in Settings => Apps.
yes
But that's not an obvious place to look for that.
They make it hard to find, and thus hard to use.
Not obvious, but not exactly hard either. It is where I would expect people to look if an application were giving them problems.
16:03
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 they just made it possible, they weren't thinking about making it easy.
(or hard)
Well, Mr S is right in that you're not supposed to kill applications under normal circumstances, as opposed to in Windows.
@Mitch No, they intentionally didn't make it easy (it still has to be possible). They didn't make it harder than it should be, but they basically bury the option.
Where killing is fairly common.
@Cerberus even then, "killing" in windows is relatively rare, as opposed to simply "closing"
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I feel that they made sure people wouldn't do it on a daily basis just because they were used to doing so on Windows, so the regular way to "get rid" of applications would have to be non-killing on Android.
It is about teaching users a different habit, without their even realising it.
16:05
In Android, the policy is more towards the "Users should uninstall apps whose behaviour they disapprove of". Which is why the battery meter shows you which apps suck down the most power.
It gets my knickers in a twist that I have to frig around with this particular app on the iPad to change the profiles between my children.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, most programs kill the progress when their window is closed.
@Cerberus No, I mean that killing a process is different from closing it.
@KitFox Profiles within the application?
back in the day, you'd kill (or force-kill; strangely those two were the same at one time) by lighting a match to the card reader.
16:06
killing is when you force it to shut down immediately. Closing is when you ask it to shut itself down and it does so.
His clothes, that is.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, OK, but the essential difference we're talking about here is whether to keep it in RAM or not.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, but "closing" can also mean just closing a window, while the process stays active. So neither word is exactly what we meant.
@Cerberus Yes. But in Windows closing programs is a common thing whereas killing is not. In Android you don't close programs the same way and killing programs is meant to be an uncommon thing.
@Mitch The card reader? Are you talking about setting punch cards on fire?
@Cerberus For some programs. But for most programs "close == exit".
16:08
Yes.
Let's not get hung up on these Windows terms.
@Mitch I got the joke.
Oh, clothes. Tarot cards and a sooth-sayer?
She would have to be wearing a nylon habit...
Cotton doesn't burn that easily, alas.
Nor wool.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Closing a program historically meant iconifying its window in some framework GUI, while leaving it still running. Exiting a program and killed a program have different nuances still. You can exit a program transitively, which means it goes of its own accord, or you can kill a program through any number of external means and force.
We just meant releasing it from RAM.
@tchrist In what OS did closing a program "iconify" it? I've always know that as "minimize".
16:12
Snagit does that.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Minimize is Microsoft talk. Iconify was the original term used by the X11 Window system used by Unix, which of course seriously antedates Microsoft.
@tchrist "iconify", yes, but "close"?
@Cerberus Making it free all its memory and any other affiliated resources it may have is something that happens when the program exists.
Anyway, I hesitate to draw any linguistic conclusions from what X11 used for its terminology. Only geeks used it and they are way more precise and pedantic than normal people.
@tchrist You mean exits?
16:15
@KitFox I know! funneh!
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes of course. Close is something that you do to a window, not a program. Programmers already have a meaning for the close() syscall, which is altogether distinct. Perhaps you are thinking of the exit() syscall instead.
Programmer don't speak in metaphors as much as unlettered users do. They speak using the names of the syscalls they call to do those jobs.
@tchrist No, I'm thinking of what people do. They close things.
System.exit(0);
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Whatever.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 They exit buildings.
16:16
@cornbreadninja Give that girl a shiny gold star!
@tchrist System.gc();
@tchrist Believe me, I understand the distinction you're making. But regular people will not.
@tchrist you could vote up one of my extant stars.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I have no "close" option anywhere. I can say "Quit Safari", or I can go find its pid and kill it myself. Close is Microsoft babytalk that is alien to me.
bbl nomtiem
16:19
@tchrist pssh, nobody cares about the tiny minority of snobs who've never used Windows and are confused by the verb "close" when dealing with a window, metaphorical or otherwise.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Snobs? Your what hurts?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think you meant 'pfft'.
'pssh' is the sound you make when...
@Mitch Pish.
2
Tosh.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, I must say "closing" something in Windows is not very consistent.
You always have to check whether the process is still running in the background, whether it still has a tray icon, etc.
@Cerberus Well, you don't always have to check. Most programs do not run in the background.
Of course it's possible to run a program that does. That doesn't change the fact that most of the time "closing" is exiting.
Honestly I don't know why anyone is arguing about what it means to close a program.
16:23
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But in many cases it is not.
Like Microsoft Office.
the phones seem not to care. You start a program, and if you stop using it, eventually maybe it'll go away, or maybe not.
@Cerberus How many? As a rough fraction of applications a typical person will have installed.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 because arguing is fun.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't give a fickle flying flip that nonprogrammers don't know what I am talking about when I am speaking of technical matters, such as programming. They simply haven't the training for it.
@Cerberus Microsoft Office doesn't stay running on my computer. What version do you have?
16:24
@ΜετάEd yeah...I couldn't think of anything.
@tchrist That's fine. We weren't talking about programming. We were talking about normal users having to force-stop programs on phones.
Remove the battery.
Send it a SIGKILL.
Or a SIGSTOP.
It isn't clear what you are talking about. Again.
No, it's perfectly clear. "force stop" is a button that users can press in an android app.
Nobody sends signals in apps. Signals aren't even good programming concepts in modern systems. for a variety of reasons and users are surely never expected to use them.
> In Russia, the situation is even grimmer. In true Soviet fashion, the bomb makers secretly dumped unknown quantities of liquid waste into giant reservoirs around the plant. Nobody knows how much radioactive contamination is out there, but a single accident—the explosion of a waste tank in 1957—is thought to have been Chernobyl-like in scale.
> As recently as the 1990s, the plant was spewing radioactive waste at a rate that makes the leaks of radioactive water from the melted-down Fukushima power plant look like a bubble bath. Residents living around the plant have elevated rates of leukemia and genetic mutations. Their children get cancer. — from Curiosity's Dirty Little Secret
16:29
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I agree that signals are of extremely limited, albeit very great, usefulness. But I still don't know what you mean by stopping. Is this some background daemon you wish to decommission?
@tchrist On iOS and Android you leave an app by pressing the home button and opening up a new app, or by one app signalling that it needs some other app to do something, or by using the task switcher, or whatever. The app you just had open is now invisible. You cannot tell, typically, what apps are still running.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So they keep running even when closed then?
@tchrist Well, "closed" is not a word that means the same thing on iOS or Android. You don't really close apps.
# kill -USR1 1
I'd say they keep running when minimized or hidden. I'm not sure what the proper nerd-speak is for that state.
16:32
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No idea, but I think most people will have some tray icons.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 resident
I guess by open you mean run and by close you mean background, or exit, or iconify, or kill?
Anyway, the OS eventually terminates the process.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I can set it not to, but by default some icon stays behind if I close all my Word documents in Office 2003. I changed this setting, of course.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I suppose you might think of it that way.
16:33
@Robusto Geezis. Some days I wish I could just fix everything.
@Robusto Yeah some things in Russia are terrible.
They're also in the U.S., but nowhere near as bad.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What part of that is wrong? Is open actually deiconify then?
@tchrist Open = visible in the foreground. Normally, only one application can be visible at the same time.
Although there are enough exceptions.
16:35
@Cerberus So open just means put the GUI window on top, then?
And you wonder why I despise these wishy-washy words!
@tchrist Yes. But there is no bottom, really: just one layer that can be occupied by an application or not. Perhaps the home screen is the bottom.
@tchrist First of all, on Android/iOS you don't really iconify or deiconify. Most apps don't have a command that tells them to exit. you "open" or "start" the app by invoking it (lots of ways to do that) and it either instantiates or resumes or comes to the foreground depending on what state it was last in.
@tchrist GUI Window? We're talking phones here. No windows.
What's wrong with GUI window?
It's not a window, I guess.
But you can have windows in Android.
That's not a term used in phones because they have full-screen apps all the time.
It's just that not many applications use them.
But some do.
You can have two application on screen.
But it's "special".
Normal applications can't do that.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't think you mean by window what I mean by window.
Everything is far too muggled for my tastes.
Cornerstone can even do this for any application you have installed, I believe.
@Cerberus It looks like it's just a custom browser that has its own built-in windowing.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I believe you can keep a small Youtube window running while working in some other application.
I have seen this in some other video.
16:44
@Cerberus Cornerstone is an OS modification
In any case, it is possible.
@Cerberus well, if you modify the OS, then yes, it's possible to add windows to one without. That's what Microsoft did with DOS, after all.
Anyway, @tchrist, "closing" is what you do with windows. The window disappears when you close it. It is not iconified or minimized. The majority of programs exit when their last window is closed.
You just install an application. Isn't any installation a modification of the OS?
Android and iOS don't really have "windows". They have full-screen applications. Those applications get put in the background when the user starts a new application or switches to the home screen. There is no "close" metaphor.
@Cerberus No, Cornerstone is not an application you just install.
He says so in the video. You can't just install it. It integrates into the OS.
He also says that many apps don't work with it.
Mahlzeit.
16:50
Bye.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How is installation different from integration?
@Cerberus How is putting a sofa in your house different than building a bookcase into the wall?
Metaphors serve only to illustrate, not to prove...
Installing an app is to the OS as putting a sofa in your living room is to your house. Modifying your OS for Cornerstone is to the OS as knocking down a wall and installing a secret-passageway-concealed-by-a-bookcase is to your house.
In the second case, changes are required to the parts that ship on the device. You have to actually change Android to do it. You can't just download the app. The OS doesn't provide the flexibility to do what the app needs.
I've always found this distinction a bit muddled.
At the end of the day, you are still putting code on the disk/flash of your computer, by copying it from one place to another. But the difference is which code you are putting down, and where.
So Android is a collection of programs that run on a computer. This computer is typically sold in a device meant to be used as a phone. Its PC analogue is Microsoft Windows.
Windows lets users install code just about anywhere including in the kernel itself, which effectively modifies the operating system. Many many features can be customized. Often this results in non-working computers if you mix the wrong pieces together.
Android doesn't allow end-users to customize the operating system.
There is a bright line between what you can change and what you cannot.
17:00
I suppose.
what about plugins?
Some kinds of modifications can be made by installing code because the OS is flexible enough to allow it.
At the end of the day, the user is just using his program, without being reminded of whether this program had to cross the line or not.
Some kinds of modifications can only be made by changing the OS itself, which no OS actually allows on a practical basis. Changing the OS requires making a new OS for yourself.
@Cerberus At the end of the day the user will either buy a device with Cornerstone on it already, or else replace his device's OS with one that has Cornerstone on it already, or else not use it, because it cannot be installed through normal means.
The user will feel he is just installing Cornerstone.
17:03
@Mitch plugins? plugins that modify the OS? I guess you could claim that there ARE some that are allowed in Android, like IMEs.
He won't be using any fancy terms.
@Cerberus No, it cannot be installed through normal means. At least, it doesn't appear to be possible.
He will still call it installation, though he needs to click on a few more screens or attach his USB to do it.
Or reboot.
or buy a new device
Hi!
@Cerberus He will have to replace his entire operating system.
With one that has cornerstone installed.
17:05
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 as you say, nothing really modifies the OS, but a plugin is slightly in that direction.. What's an IME?
@MattЭллен Hello.
@Mitch input method... e.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 He will not call it that.
Mainly because the rest of his screens, the ones he uses every day, will still look the same.
@Cerberus he will, because he'll have to use the words "flash the rom" and frankly only a tiny number of people do that.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 oh right, keyboards for arabic and pinyin and ..._shudder_..French.
17:06
@Cerb: 99.999% of people will install apps by downloading them from the app store.
2
Q: Can I say this in English: "Hard- and Software"?

Felix DombekIn German we can use a hyphen as indication that there is a continuation of the current word somewhere else in the sentence, such as in "hard- and software". Other examples: "de- and reconstruction", "boy- or girlfriends", … I haven't seen this use of a hyphen in English. But is the use of a hy...

Dupe.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Does he really have to flash the entire ROM, or just some files to be replaced through Clockworkmod or something similar?
They will not unlock their bootloader and root their device (or "jailbreak").
@Cerberus Does it really matter if, for all intents and purposes, only a few hundred people do it? Almost nobody does that to their devices.
I have flashed some files on my Android, never thought of it as replacing the OS.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 We are talking about these people, aren't we? People who don't install Cornerstone won't think of it in any way, nor use any word for it.
@Cerberus My point is that you cannot simply install cornerstone. you need to modify your OS to do it.
If you install those modifications pre-made for you by someone else, you are still modifying it.
17:10
9 mins ago, by Cerberus
At the end of the day, the user is just using his program, without being reminded of whether this program had to cross the line or not.
And what to call that particular action is irrelevant to me because I don't know the details of what, exactly, cornerstone requires, and whether or not it simply needs root or does it require changes to actual android components.
It is irrelevant to me too.
Glad we agree on that.
@Cerberus You wanted to know the difference between installing an application and integrating into the OS. Is it clear?
The line you mentioned between changing the files that the OS normally allows you to change and files that it doesn't allow is clear.
@ΜετάEd If you a chance, could you please take a look at this question’s edit, and tell if I’ve done something wrong? I tried to tidy it up, but the OP discarded my edits without a peep. I tried to put it into the style that you have been using; I didn’t change what he said. I feel the rollback is an uglyback.
17:16
Ack. I have run out of closevotes again.
@Mahnax Perhaps GR close-votes should be in a separate pool. :(
@tchrist Ha, perhaps.
This stinks:
-1
Q: What is the origin of "Phew!"?

Axel NeumannWhat  is the origin of "Phew!"?

17:42
@tchrist There's no accounting for taste. Also, some OPs are very attached to what they wrote. I don't see anything wrong with what you did, but I would not force the issue or engage in edit wars.
@Mahnax At this time of day? You've been slacking off :-)
@ΜετάEd I was almost out last night, but I saved a few.
@ΜετάEd Thanks. I wondered whether I’d done something obviously wrong, or stupid, because I couldn’t see that I had.
@ΜετάEd It is tricky to manage the trade-off between being attached to things one has written and a collaboratively edited site, as the FAQ (some FAQ, a FAQ) somewhere mentions.
@tchrist He's rolled it back again.
17:57
@Mahnax Blah.
@tchrist OPs these days.
@Mahnax Suck suck suck.
And I don't mean that in a good way.
@tchrist then where's your votes?

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