English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mitch

13:00

@KitFox I suspect it's because of two related things: 1 - just the subject itself is troubling to most people (the idea of a distinction about rape), and 2 - the fact that he is questioning it is indicative of the disparaged side of the issue.

KitFox

@Mitch So perhaps the example is touchy, but the question seems topical to me.

RegDwight АΑA

Or everybody has just had it with that quote by now.

Mitch

yeah..it's hard to be unbiased.

KitFox

Maybe not a good example of what I mean anyway.

It seems like we've gotten a group of 3 or 4 people who downvote almost everything.

Mitch

so you can see stats overall of how many up and downvotes there are in general?

KitFox

13:02

It's hard to say though. Maybe I have a cognitive bias myself.

@Mitch You mean across questions?

RegDwight АΑA

@Mitch yes. Pretty stable last I checked.

Matt Эллен

hmmm, a coterie of downvoters

Mitch

yeah and people. (it sounds like you are talking like that, that 'so many downvotes')

RegDwight АΑA

We keep getting moar visitors, but there is little fluctuation in terms of the number of questions, answers, and votes.

Recently the number of downvotes on questions has skyrocketed, but that was actually me, working the 300+ reviews and getting my Vox Populi badge.

KitFox

Oh, I see.

RegDwight АΑA

13:05

So ignore the data points for the last three-odd days.

I've been voting on veeery old stuff anyway, as you can think.

Matt Эллен

the Owl is skewing the scales

RegDwight АΑA

Not the ones you can see.

Matt Эллен

I wasn't looking for any anyway

KitFox

So that's in the mod tools...oh, the graphs at the back, of course.

RegDwight АΑA

Yes. Use the dropdown. Lots of things in there.

Oh yeah, look at the answers deleted.

Obviously this is a one-off.

Mitch

13:09

@RegDwightАΑA @KitFox case closed?

(I think that explains the perception by Kit)

RegDwight АΑA

No, Kit's perception (and mine) is about new questions.

I wasn't downvoting new stuff, certainly not thrice.

Mitch

Oh.

KitFox

Oh, right. Sorry, I got distracted by shiny things.

RegDwight АΑA

But yeah, we bitched when everything got autoupvoted, now we bitch that everything gets autodownvoted. Can't suit us.

Mitch

What if I go and down vote a whole bunch. Then everybody will notice and wonder 'why all the down votes today?' and i"ll be all like 'I did it because they suck.' and Kit will say 'Oh. I see.' and then that wil explain everything, and we can get back to talking about balrogs.

Or song lyrics

KitFox

13:13

There is an uptick in downvoting this past week.

It might just be Reg though.

Mitch

But the evidence is equivocal. I don't downvote much but I did rage downvote twice last week. I blame myself then.

Matt Эллен

it's all youre failt, Mitch

KitFox

I don't know how much we can discuss publicly anyway.

RegDwight АΑA

I think it was an army of balrogs. It went well over our heads because they used their wings.

Matt Эллен

if only Evan Caroll had got to be mod!

KitFox

13:15

It's funny, I'm sitting here looking at the trend lines thinking, huh, that's a funny pattern. Then duh weekends.

Mitch

@MattЭллен sobs silently

RegDwight АΑA

@KitFox just wait till you discover Christmases and public holidays!

Matt Эллен

@KitFox does it fit the chat activity chart?

Mitch

@MattЭллен That I would like to have seen. But only subjunctively.

KitFox

@MattЭллен Probably.

Mitch

13:16

actually I bet nothing really would have happened. He wouldn't have cared to actually do anything.

KitFox

He would probably post the analytics everywhere.

Matt Эллен

yeah, probably. All mouth, no trousers

RegDwight АΑA

@MattЭллен The chat activity chart is about most active hours, on average. The site activity charts are about days, in absolute terms.

Mitch

@KitFox Which would probably show that ELU doesn't downvote or close more often than his favorites.

KitFox

That spike in deleted answers...that you @Reg?

Matt Эллен

13:17

I've been rolling in reps thanks to deleted answers this week

RegDwight АΑA

9 mins ago, by RegDwight АΑA

Oh yeah, look at the answers deleted.

KitFox

We look pretty good from where I'm sitting.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightАΑA I see

RegDwight АΑA

And no, not just me. We have quite a few active reviewers. People voting to delete stuff. Tchrist, Matt, kiamlaluno, etc.

KitFox

These charts are fun.

Yeah, but that's a huge spike there. We must have all been playing with the review tools that day.

RegDwight АΑA

13:19

@KitFox english.stackexchange.com/users/300/…

All out there in the open.

KitFox

I can't see that.

Matt Эллен

tchrist, JSB and me have recently being voting to delete more stuffs

KitFox

Also, the edits spike on those days.

RegDwight АΑA

@KitFox wha, not even as a mod?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So did we end up expanding our topic?

Matt Эллен

13:20

or at least saying so more in chat

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Or is this OT:

4

Q: Origin of | (pipe symbol)

What is the origin of the | (pipe symbol) in typesetting?

KitFox

So just some good active reviewing going on, it seems.

RegDwight АΑA

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I would have expected this to have long been closed.

KitFox

@RegDwightАΑA I get a page not found.

RegDwight АΑA

Fair enough.

KitFox

13:21

Oh, because it is from your profile, I guess.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightАΑA Even in my expanded-topic-fantasy I don't think typography is on topic here.

KitFox

We've done other punctuation stuff.

Isn't there one about the origin of the ampersand somewhere?

RegDwight АΑA

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yes, we closed such questions in the past. There are enough precedents.

Matt Эллен

is | punctuation?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен Not as far as I'm concerned.

Matt Эллен

13:23

it's more a maths/physics/programming tool than it is punctuation, so not related to English as such

RegDwight АΑA

I think we had one about the origin of the letter "a". Can't find it now, perhaps deleted.

Mitch

What similar questions were closed? (I don't care about such things but they still seem on topic to me)

Matt Эллен

OT | On Topic

RegDwight АΑA

@Mitch basically anything that wasn't specific to English.

Mitch

@RegDwightАΑA I would think origin of the letters would be on topic.

@RegDwightАΑA Oh.

but...

RegDwight АΑA

13:25

If English had letters it invented itself, sure.

Matt Эллен

u?

Mitch

fine. it just seems...

RegDwight АΑA

We struggled to make Old English on-topic, and the letter A predates even Latin.

Mitch

yeah.

fine.

KitFox

0

Q: Why do we use '/' sign as a representation of 'or'?

Imagine that you want to write something about colors and you know that red or blue would work in that context. How do you write that? I've seen these styles: Red or blue Red, or blue Red/blue Why is this sign used as a substitute for 'or'? I mean, in computer engineering, '|' represents 'or'...

etymology punctuation

So it's kind of a dupe anyway.

RegDwight АΑA

13:27

@KitFox haha that answer is just hilarious.

Mitch

english.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/…

RegDwight АΑA

"According to Wikipedia, / means 'or', so I can see how it could have been expanded to mean 'or'". Facepalm.

Xblast time!

Mitch

typography tagged questions. not many, but still there.

KitFox

Yeah, I'm on the fence about it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch A cursory glance shows that some of them are English-typography

KitFox

13:32

It isn't really English, but you wouldn't know if it's unique to English unless you asked, right?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So I'd allow "How do I punctuate blah" but not "I've seen a symbol and want to know more about it"

Mitch

@RegDwightАΑA Actually, no, it's not out in the open. None of us can see the voting patterns of other people. Like the email field in the profile. we can individually see our own, but not anybody else's.

unless maybe you're a mod.

@KitFox right. and even if the answer turns out to be 'no'... why does that make it off-topic?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox The | question? Well, no, but you also wouldn't know if it's unique to computer keyboards either.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 there's not an 'octothorpe' question?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So why not ask on SO or Programmers.

Matt Эллен

13:34

maybe they did...

Mitch

doesn't exactly count but...

4

A: Proper use of colon

If that's a commit number, I'd use the octothorpe (#).

Matt Эллен

6

Q: Meaning of <<= and |=

What is the meaning of <<= and |= in C? I recognise << is bitshift etc. but I don't know what these are in combination.

c operators semantic bit-shift logical-operators

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I thought there was a question on the octothorpe but now I can't see it.

Matt Эллен

2

Q: Meaning of >>, <<, | and & in JavaScript

I was working with a base64 encoding script, but it is throwing a lot of warnings in JSLint. Can someone tell me what's the meaning of these symbols in JavaScript? >>,<<,|,& Here's an example of code with those symbols: if ((c > 127) && (c < 2048)) { utftex...

javascript

7

Q: Why is the word 'number' abbreviated to 'No.' in UK English and '#' in American English?

Why the disparity. And why use 'No.'? Is it from the French? And the hash or pound sign seems a weird choice too, is there a history or any reason involved?

etymology abbreviations symbols

12

Q: Historical reasons of footnotes' sequence symbols

As @Mahnax answered to this question, the footnotes' sequence symbols is as follows (Chicago Manual of Style Online): * (asterisk; but do not use if p values occur in the table; see 3.78) † (dagger) ‡ (double dagger) § (section mark) || (parallels) # (number sign, or pou...

history typography

Mitch

what -is- the origin of 'A'? (that's rhetorical; I happen to know because I was there. to be truthful, it wasn't me but I was in the room at the time. Serifs -were- my idea though. Well...I told the guy writing to put some curlicues in there, and that's what came out. I came up with the name 'serif'. Sort of. I had this half cough sneeze thing going on and... Hey...is that Carlo?

Matt Эллен

13:38

A in English comes from An

GR

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

hey, An is part of my name: 安

Matt Эллен

Anne Hathaway?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No, An Hathaway

but only if you're british

otherwise it's A Hathaway

Matt Эллен

:D

Cerberus

Naaah.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:43

Okay I just made an "AN + H" joke. Time for me to retire from the internet.

Cerberus

Stress on the first syllable.

Matt Эллен

I alwayth thay Anne hath away with wordth

Cerberus

Hah.

Mitch

thee never tireth of that.

Matt Эллен

What kind of pension does one get from the internet?

tchrist

13:49

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Have no fear of that, for even upon retiring from the Internet for your AN-H transgression, rest assured that the vast unspoiled Hinternet still awaits you.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist jolly good! I'll just adopt a Bri'ish accent then, and 'oliday on the 'internet!

Daycare workers encourage 3-year-olds to fight

JSBձոգչ

i could see myself doing that after a long, boring day at the daycare

Matt Эллен

"Hands of Our Future" <- the clue's in the title

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

heheheh

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 More haitches, I see.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:57

Well, yeah, otherwise i'd laugh like this: eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

That's just wrong

Cerberus

Like a donkey?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I could laugh in spanish for you

Cerberus

That is unexpected.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

jajajajaja

RegDwight АΑA

"Ho ho ho", she laughed in a refined feminine way

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:59

does ANYONE laugh with an O sound? I don't think I've ever heard it.

JSBձոգչ

Santa Claus

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA Oh look, it's Mrs Claws!

jejejejejejeje

Matt Эллен

kekekeke

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBձոգչ well, besides him, I mean.

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist Heh, heh. Instead of "Claus," you write "Claws." Now that's humorous! Today's comedians could learn from this.

imdb.com/title/tt0584465/quotes?qt=qt0343690

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:02

Let's face it, comedy is a dead art form. Now tragedy, ja ja ja, that's funny.

Robusto

RegDwight АΑA

►

cornbread ninja

Top o' the balrog, all.

5

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightАΑA That wasn't funny until he started singing. Then I actually LOLed

Robusto

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:05

fields -> [kickball, physics] is a false dichotomy. I fell off the flow-chart at that point because I thought of Java class members.

Robusto

You are not Peter Ware Higgs.

RegDwight АΑA

@Robusto that's some crap layout, dear Lord.

Robusto

sigh

Matt Эллен

siggh

Robusto

If you don't understand me, how will you ever understand the Higgs Boson?

Matt Эллен

14:07

I have learned to pretend to understand the Higgs field theory

I asked a physicist, and they tried to explain it.

I wonder what it would feel like if I were able to cancel the Higgs field around my body

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA If you think the ring finger on my left was inadvertently twitchier than the index finger on my right, then you are howling up the wrong tree. Modulo spurious lexical or phonologic substitutions, most of my own typos derive from fatfingering an alphabetically standard (viz. QWERTY/ASDFG/ZXCVB) keyboard, something spellcheckers would do well to consider. But I half-suspect you already knew that, so I'll try to bare with you.

Matt Эллен

@cornbreadninja And to you!

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist Sigh. I think you need to read that quote. Or watch Futurama, for that matter.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist No baring with you in this chat.

Cerberus

@tchrist No need to bare anything.

Jinx.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:11

jinx

Matt Эллен

@tchrist I just want to join in the conga

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA No, I did, I did. I saw your ursaline talons bared.

RegDwight АΑA

Oh yeah, bare vs. bear. The most overupvoted answer on ELU.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If only The Evan Carroll had been elected, we could all be bare.

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA That is a strong statement. Surely there are many contenders for that honor!

RegDwight АΑA

14:12

@tchrist no. That one wins hands down.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Don't forget: I advocated nudity if you carry a handgun

RegDwight АΑA

64

A: Is it "bear" or "bare" with me?

“Bear with me,” the standard expression, is a request for forbearance or patience. “Bare with me” would be an invitation to undress. Source

Take someone else's joke, quote it verbatim, leave it at that, for a top 10 answer ever.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist.

Gigili

OK, now that you don't understand me, I'll ask about the differences between hello and hola.

tchrist

Sixty-four. Ok, you're right.

cornbread ninja

14:14

@tchrist add homonym attack! It's your oddly-placed ctrl key; you're out of ctrl.

@MattЭллен tips bowler

@Gigili I was just wondering where you'd been.

tchrist

@ΜετάEd That was evocative, maybe sans e.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist Have you seen this: webtypography.net/toc

Matt Эллен

@Gigili the same as between English and Español

tchrist

@ΜετάEd No, I had not.

RegDwight АΑA

> the site is being added to one principle at a time

Now that's some preposition stranding that's completely uncalled for.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:17

@MattЭллен Dammit! I should have voted for you! Oh wait... maybe I did. Now I'll never see all the weapons-toting chatters naked.

Gigili

@cornbreadninja Umm, well, I left this chat room because people are double my age and we can't understand each other.

Matt Эллен

@Gigili but now you're older, so its all good!

Gigili

So if I spend more time here, I'll only have myself to blame.

Robusto

@ΜετάEd I thought it meant beer with me.

Gigili

@MattЭллен Not yet, I'll be older in an hour.

cornbread ninja

14:19

@Gigili I'm sorry that you feel that way.

ΜετάEd

@Gigili If you'll just stick around here for twenty years, we'll just be 3/2 your age.

Cerberus

@Gigili Hello. Am I double your age?

cornbread ninja

@Gigili you're older than you've ever been / and now you're even older

3

Cerberus

You do get attention around here, isn't that fun?

Matt Эллен

I'll never be as young as you once were

tchrist

14:20

@ΜετάEd Small capitals and text figures go a long way toward making text look better.

Robusto

And then one day you find / ten years have got behind / you. No one told you when to run / You missed the starting gun.

cornbread ninja

@Robusto :D

ΜετάEd

@tchrist See, I thought that site would amuse you.

tchrist

@ΜετάEd Do you know about embedded/embeddable fonts?

Cerberus

I know they exist, somehow.

cornbread ninja

14:22

Ask him again in Fette Fraktur.

Cerberus

Oh!

Robusto

@ΜετάEd You can't amuse a typography balrog. Their only reaction is rage — rage and aggression. Rage and aggression and devouring, gnashing of teeth, biblical or Tolkienesque carnage.

Cerberus

Yay for fette Fraktur.

cornbread ninja

@Cerberus :D

Cerberus

@Robusto Don't forget burning!

Robusto

14:23

@Cerberus What, there's a typeface called Fat Frankfurter? Can you get that with beer?

@Cerberus That is included, gratis, with carnage.

Gigili

@cornbreadninja And you're all older than me. How old is John?

@Cerberus Hello. I've heard that you've said that you've missed me.

Cerberus

@Robusto Don't ask me. I assumed it was just bold Fraktur, not a specific typeface.

cornbread ninja

@Gigili John?

Cerberus

@Gigili Hello, have I?

Matt Эллен

giggly john, the happiest man in town

Robusto

14:26

I thought that was pronounced jiggly.

KitFox

@Mitch Mods can't even see it.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist Yes. I use IM Fell DW Pica and IM Fell DW Pica SC for my blog.

KitFox

And they are so pretty!

Gigili

Yes, I am so pretty.

And very modest.

ΜετάEd

@Gigili Both are fine things to be.

Matt Эллен

14:32

@Gigili not so fast. I am far moder than you!

Cerberus

Whereas Reg and Kit are just mods.

Matt Эллен

:D

Cerberus

Puny beings.

Balrogs are the moddest of them all!

Matt Эллен

Darker than the darkest, moder than the modest

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The story would have been more interesting if the Balrog had gotten the ring of power.

KitFox

14:34

if the Balrog had eaten the ring of power.

Speaking of eating, how am I going to get food today?

Matt Эллен

conjuring?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Eew, then the Fellowship would have had to sift through balrog poop to get it back.

KitFox

Then he could do crazy shit with his intestines.

Matt Эллен

what if he ate Frodo, with the ring?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I wonder if Balrogs HAVE intestines.

ΜετάEd

14:36

If the Balrog of Moria had swallowed the One Ring, the rest of the books would pretty much have been about the Balrog of Moria.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

if he just ate it, Gandalf could still have killed him. You have to WEAR the ring for it to work.

unless the Balrog has fingers in his stomach.

WTF knows what a Balrog's internal anatomy is like. We can't even agree on its external anatomy.

ΜετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't know about that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@ΜετάEd Well there are lots of times that people hold the ring and actually touch it and nothing happens

Matt Эллен

there must've been a button on the inside

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So interesting fact: The Nazgul didn't actually have their rings. Sauron holds the rings and that's how he commands them.

ΜετάEd

14:39

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Really?

@MattЭллен You just have to say "wonder twin powers activate".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@ΜετάEd According to wikipedia which quotes some letters and other semi-canon works like the unfinished tales

Matt Эллен

They must have had them at somepoint, in order to become enchanted

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен Yes, they had them until they became wraiths, but now they don't have them.

Matt Эллен

that makes sense

KitFox

They can't wear rings. They're um, in...insubstantial...?

Matt Эллен

14:40

true

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox And yet stabbable.

KitFox

By magic weapons.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And they can hold swords.

Well, Eowyn's sword wasn't magic.

KitFox

shh You're ruining it for everyone.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But she was, on account of being a girl.

In that clever MacBeth-ish sort of trick.

Matt Эллен

yeah. not many girls in Middle Earth

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:42

@KitFox Well... sorta. Or the witch-king was tricked by word-play into lowering his guard.

You could argue that he met his doom at the hands of Merry, whose slightly magical blade undid some of the WK's magic, and Merry is no "man" either.

Cerberus

I don't see why non-solid things could not be hit by certain kinds of physical objects, but I do agree with Kit that they need some kind of magical strength on top of the physical.

KitFox

sighs

Matt Эллен

@KitFox you brought this on yourself

KitFox

I did. I did. Indeed I did.

Matt Эллен

;)

tchrist

14:44

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Chestnuts!

Cerberus

So the fact that she was a woman may have added the necessary component, or the mere fact that she would fulfil the prophecy.

KitFox

@Matt Mussri thinks Vasily's journal entries are "strange and long-winded." What's your feeling?

Matt Эллен

@KitFox I liked them. I haven't read the latest version yet

KitFox

But he thinks I'm trying to have him emulate Russian syntax.

Matt Эллен

hmmm. I didn't get that impression

KitFox

14:48

I should just stop looking at it. It's starting to bug me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox just noticed something

> Vasily frowned. “It’s not garbage,” he replied, “I’m trying to remember something. If I figure if I can

Too many if's

KitFox

Oh! Thanks!

I had to read that three times before I understood what you meant.

So I don't think I'd've seen it ever on my own.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So I don't think the journal entries are too long.

As for "strange", they don't seem any stranger than the story itself.

KitFox

Fixed it.

Thanks. I have to get back to the grindstone.

Gotta earn my right to gripe.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…