English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

4:00 AM

The Cirth of course were originally take from the Fuþork.

cornbread ninja

fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/…

Nytol.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist see? it's practically mono-spaced already

tchrist

Er,well.

It says: Tengwar Parmaite.

There are only three consonants in the first word, so only three glyphs.

Mahnax

Evening.

tchrist

Hi, you.

Mahnax

4:06 AM

We meet again. Any luck with your extension?

tchrist

No, the passwd email never got here. Or hasn’t gotten here. Something like that.

Mahnax

That's too bad.

tchrist

I was being asked by @cornbreadninja what fonts I ended up using in the last book. @Cerberus thinks it’s all so easy, but is is anything but.

20 mins ago, by tchrist

The cover font is Adobe ITC Garamond. The text font is Linotype Birka, the heading font is Myriad Pro, and the code font is Ubuntu Mono, with the following fonts used as fallbacks to display unsupported glyphs:

• Adobe Song Std
• Arno Pro
• Free Mono
• Free Serif
• ST Heiti SC
• Symbola

Ten of ’em. And I restrained myself.

Mahnax

Heh. Very nice!

tchrist

I was afraid of what their software might do with right-to-left text.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:13 AM

@tchrist you'd think that by now getting software to do font-related stuff would be straight-forward. It's not like alphabets have changed much over the years. Why isn't this a solved problem yet?

tchrist

@JasperLoy I’m not your downvoter, but don’t you think his sample statement is unnatural English.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It’s . . . complicated.

user19161

@tchrist Yes, but still an answerable question, so I answered.

user19161

I really hope the downvoter will comment.

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 For one thing, they have, actually. Or at least, Unicode has grown.

But font tech has changed significantly. The OpenType revolution, and all.

user19161

Is the downvoter here? Confess!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:18 AM

@tchrist Sure, Unicode has changed a lot. But it's been around for years now. Why am I still having trouble with diacritics on latin letters in 2012?

tchrist

Plus, well, they are using new tech.

Isn't that sad?

We had to hand-tweak various things. Putting an acute on an m, putting a circumflex on an l.

The new tech is not the sort of thing you use InDesign for.

It starts with DocBook, which is a form of SGML.

This goes through translation into various ebook format and into PDF for printing.

And it is very primitive compared to proper typesetting software.

Just mixing Latin and Greek was a royal pain to make look right.

syntax: From Greek σύνταξις, “with-arrangement”. How things (particularly symbols) are put together with each other.

God, you have no idea. This is a shit-for-font.

user19161

@tch I think I know why my answer is not right now. I can reinterpret what he originally wrote so that it makes sense.

user19161

I deleted my answer. I'll give one if the downvoter does not add one.

tchrist

mojibake: When you speak one language and the computer thinks you’re speaking another. You’ll see odd translations when you send UTF‑8, for instance, but the computer thinks you sent Latin-1, showing all sorts of weird characters instead. The term is written 「文字化け」in Japanese and means “character rot”, an apt description. Pronounced [modʑibake] in standard IPA phonetics, or approximately “moh-jee-bah-keh”.

That one was to-die-for hard.

Which is ridiculous.

Another bugger: For example, a carriage return plus a line feed is a single grapheme but two characters, while a “ȫ” is a single grapheme but one, two, or even three characters, depending on normalization.

But yes, it was like going back to the days from before tex, before troff even.

No control of widows and orphans. Miserable mis-hyphenation. Insane page breaks. Swiss-cheese ty pog raph y.

Footnotes falling on the wrong pages.

Just stupid broken crap.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So why were they using this software if it was so wonderful?

tchrist

4:27 AM

No choice.

It's "how they do it" now.

And they're using the gold-plated Caddy of all such products, too: Antenna House.

It's still crap.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's so they can do ebooks.

Or so they claim.

Because not all ebook readers accept just simple PDF.

And you certainly don't want to give them a scan!!

But the print tech has gone back into pre-Gutenberg.

user19161

@tchrist You know Japanese?

tchrist

No, it all looks like 文字化け to me. :)

Don't get me started on Japanese.

user19161

Robusto knows Japanese.

tchrist

Antenna House is a Japanese company.

Their support for Asian issues is much better.

Or rather, they screw up on Western ones.

For example: hanging punctuation.

They only let you do it with Asian ones, not Western ones.

FTN.

user19161

What is hanging punctuation?

tchrist

4:31 AM

It's when all the letters are in the same column at either side of the line. At least the end but sometimes also the beginning.

user19161

In fact that question just now even if I reinterpret it it does not sound right, so ah! Let someone else answer.

tchrist

"Their support for Asian issues is much better
  or rather,  they  screw up on  Western  ones.

user19161

I think the downvoter should answer since he seems to know enough to downvote me.

tchrist

It is nearly impossible to demo without real control.

Mahnax

@JasperLoy Please stop obsessing over it.

tchrist

4:33 AM

The r and the s at the end should align, and the dot or comma or dash should hang in the right margin.

Mahnax

It's one downvote. Not a big deal.

tchrist

Similarly, a leading quote should hang in the left margin.

This has to be done subtly.

Hanging punctuation

Hanging punctuation or exdentation is a way of typesetting punctuation marks and bullet points, most commonly quotation marks and hyphens, so that they do not disrupt the ‘flow’ of a body of text or ‘break’ the margin of alignment. It is so called because the punctuation appears to ‘hang’ in the margin of the text, and is not incorporated into the block or column of text. It is commonly used when text is fully justified. The style was used by Gutenberg in the Gutenberg Bible, the first book printed in Europe. Very few desktop publishing applications allow for automatic hanging punctuat...

That's a leftish hang.

It looks nicer to right-hang your hyphens at the end of the line.

It's much subtler than that article presents, but that's the idea.

user19161

@Mahnax Oh well, I did not really say that much about it did I?

Mahnax

@JasperLoy I feel as though you have, but maybe I am just reading the same things over and over.

tchrist

Jasper, where do you live?

user19161

4:37 AM

@tchrist Singapore.

tchrist

Ah that's right.

That makes you a native speaker . . . of Singaporean English, right?

user19161

@tchrist Well, I don't know.

tchrist

Or did you learn it later in life?

user19161

I just use English mostly, that's all that's certain.

tchrist

:)

You know some Chinese, then?

user19161

4:38 AM

I mean, some people don't consider that to be real English.

user19161

@tchrist Yes.

tchrist

I don't know. There are people from India who really don't quite count.

They speak very very fast, and do the most bizarre things syntactically.

user19161

But I think any American or British can understand me perfectly, and also the other way round.

tchrist

Than you’re doing better than a billion subcontinental Indians.

j/k

kinda

user19161

@tchrist Hmm, maybe a million.

user19161

4:41 AM

They are not so numerous!

tchrist

Right.

Oh, the Indians are.

But those who speak English are not.

user19161

Anyway since you brought it up, what we call Singlish here is like broken English. I can use that but I don't in formal situations.

tchrist

Why would one wish to speak broken English if one can speak it unbroken?

user19161

Because Singlish is like part of the culture.

tchrist

Like Ebonics?

user19161

4:44 AM

I don't know about ebonics, but it's just natural to use Singlish in many situations, even talking to friends who can speak standard English.

user19161

So with friends I sort of vacillate between the two forms.

tchrist

I guess you do what is appropriate for the in-group, or you aren’t part of it.

I just could never speak bad English no matter what. Too much personal identity wrapped up in being articulate.

user19161

Just imagine a bunch of Americans who moved to Britain later on. They can speak AmE and BrE but they might vacillate between the two as well.

tchrist

Maybe...

But it didn’t work like that for me.

Mahnax

Where were you born, @tchrist?

tchrist

4:47 AM

However, one thing that did was speaking Spanglish with American friends when living in Spain.

@Mahnax In Beloit.

user19161

@mahnax Now I am obsessing over whether you are upset with me.

Mahnax

@JasperLoy No, I'm not upset with you. You needn't fret so!

tchrist

@JasperLoy Are you getting enough sleep?

user19161

@tchrist Where is Beloit?

Mahnax

It's in Wisconsin.

tchrist

4:48 AM

Very good!

Mahnax

I was born in Grande Prairie, AB.

user19161

@tchrist I am, but I am not well. I have some conditions which I won't elaborate here.

tchrist

Which is not.

I am sorry to hear that, Jasper.

user19161

@Mahnax AB= Alberta?

tchrist

Yes, Jasper.

Mahnax

4:49 AM

@JasperLoy Yep!

I love this font. I love it.

Thank you, @tchrist.

tchrist

The two-letter–abbreviation namespace is shared/unique between the United States and the not-yet-United States.

Which one?

Mahnax

Alfios.

tchrist

Yes, I like it very much, too.

Mahnax

I just need to tweak sizes here and there, and it will be perfect. I will do that a little later.

user19161

@tchrist Maybe I misread the transcript, but did you say you were female that day? I think you must have been joking.

Mahnax

4:51 AM

His name is Tom…

tchrist

I said I lived abroad for a year.

Which isn't the same as being one.

Mahnax

Oh, you.

chuckles

user19161

Oh I misread then. Yeah I sort of looked you up, that perl thing.

tchrist

"I spent my junior year abroad, but decided to switch back."

user19161

I only know that perl-tk is used for GUIs, like the TeXLive installer and manager.

tchrist

4:52 AM

I've never been female any day, actually.

It is, sometimes.

I've never even worn drag.

Once a friend and I were going to a Halloween Party (fancy-dress ball), and I dressed in a tux. He showed up as a French maid. When we got to the party, they said "oh good, the help have arrived."

user19161

I wonder why MiKTeX is still so popular when TL works on Windows as well.

Mahnax

@tchrist Nice.

When I am older, I hope to own several nice tuxedos.

user19161

@Mahnax Several?

user19161

I hate tuxedos!

tchrist

My friend Larry has, or did have I dunno if they're gone, several remarkably colored ones.

Mahnax

4:55 AM

@JasperLoy Oh yes. I like the idea of a tuxedo.

user19161

@Mahnax You should watch the movie with that name then.

tchrist

He was in various orchestras, and got used to wearing them. He just wanted more color.

Mahnax

@JasperLoy I have.

Years ago, on a very small TV.

user19161

@tchrist You know Larry Trask the linguist?

Mahnax

I even remember where I watched it, and in which bodily position.

This is silly. I study biology for hours and yet I can remember my exact location during a movie four years ago.

user19161

4:56 AM

I like Trask's Guide to Punctuation, but it is a bit not mainstream in some areas.

tchrist

@JasperLoy No, Larry Wall the same.

user19161

@Mahnax I memorized the structure of the 20 amino acids when I was in school.

tchrist

@Mahnax Give it thirty years. Time tears down all such gifts, usually before they can become vanities.

Mahnax

@JasperLoy Silly boy.

user19161

@Mahnax You sound like you are older than me!

Mahnax

4:58 AM

@JasperLoy Perhaps I am.

user19161

@Mahnax Well we both know that is not true.

Mahnax

@JasperLoy You might know it, but I don't.

user19161

@Mahnax What?

tchrist

You can just tell.

Mahnax

@tchrist Tell what?

user19161

4:59 AM

Well, I think Mahnax is just joking with me.

tchrist

@Mahnax You have an exuberance from being on the front side of the downslope.

Mahnax

@JasperLoy Indeed he is. What a jester that boy is.

user19161

@Mahnax Yeah jester jasper.

Mahnax

@tchrist Oh, thank you.

tchrist

You’re welcome.

It’s refreshing.

Mahnax

5:00 AM

Like a nice glass of iced tea.

tchrist

I never thought I would ever become anything but the cheerful lively sort I was when I was young. Sometimes I still am, but sometimes I am . . . tired.

The world no longer seems infinite.

Mahnax

I have a feeling that as I age, I will become much more reserved.

user19161

Well, if you believe in an afterlife, it is infinite.

tchrist

Reserved is British for repressed. :)

Mahnax

Yet much of the world is still infinite to me—there are so many things to learn.

tchrist

5:02 AM

As I said.

Mahnax

Where?

rubs eyes

user19161

In fact, the more I think about things, the more I think there is an afterlife.

tchrist

If that helps you, Jasper, I do not think it hurts for you to think that.

@Mahnax Well, I said the world is no longer infinite for me. I was implying it still was for you.

Mahnax

@tchrist Oh, that's what you mean. I see.

tchrist

You cannot see its end when you are your age — at least, I hope you cannot. But that too you will lose, the ability not to see the end.

Ick. I'm sorry.

Maudlin is my signal to get to bed.

Ok?

Mahnax

5:05 AM

I feel that while I can see the end, off in the distance, I can also see all of the paths branching off to the sides.

Oh, it's only 23:00? It feels later than that.

user19161

It's 1 pm here. Time for me to sleep too.

tchrist

11pm is too late when you get up at 5am.

I've been burning the candle on both ends this week, and I'm worn out. Need to get a good night's rest.

Mahnax

In that case, I would suggest getting one.

Sage advice, I know.

tchrist

Because after a week of five and a half to six hours sleep, it stacks up.

user19161

Yes, let's all sleep now. QED.

tchrist

5:07 AM

One night, ok. Two nights, maybe.

But all week, and blah.

Mahnax

@JasperLoy Nope, I'll be up awhile yet.

tchrist

I used to stay up all night all the time.

Now I want to sleep.

user19161

@tchrist Er, with someone? :-)

tchrist

I stayed up all night once or thrice on the last book.

I’m a resigned bachelor.

Which is very different that a confirmed bachelor.

user19161

Maybe I might write some books in future, I dunno.

tchrist

5:08 AM

Confirmed bachelor is codespeak for a gay guy, probably one who gets out and about — hence, laid — quite a bit.

A resigned bachelor is just a stay-at-home.

user19161

@tchrist I am like you I guess.

tchrist

Probably.

user19161

Even if there are no other obstacles, I don't think I will ever meet some girl of my type.

tchrist

And what type of girl are you, Jasper?

:)

Mahnax

Haha.

The not-girl kind.

user19161

5:10 AM

Well, the type that cannot be put into words. I consider myself not of this world.

tchrist

Mahnax I just didn't read that in my own sentences, or wouldn't have walked into it unawares. I do that to people.

When they do it to me, I'm too tired.

All that matters is to find somebody who is compatible with you.

Mahnax

@tchrist Sorry, what are you referring to?

tchrist

You know.

user19161

There are 9 zombies spying on us in this room.

tchrist

Zactly.

Some whom you never ever hear from.

user19161

5:13 AM

Some people leave their comp hibernating and never leave the room or shut down.

user19161

There was once someone was in here for like months.

tchrist

I never shut it down, no.
Ok, I'm grabbing my kitty and taking him up to bed now. So it is truly good night.

user19161

OK, me too. Over and out!

Mahnax

Night!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

me three. bye!

Frank Science

7:34 AM

I'm afraid my pronunciation is alwrong.

RegDwight АΑA

9:27 AM

@tchrist I do that on all our sites. I cannot understand people who don't. It can be a pain in the ass, but if you're a webmaster, that's your frigging job.

Noah

10:46 AM

Hello

Why in the hell it took me 10 minutes to login? Any idea?

Is everyone asleep?

@RegDwightАΑA awake?

user19161

11:04 AM

@Noah He is probably eating or showering or playing now. What's up?

Noah

11:27 AM

Hello

at least you are alive @JasperLoy

Why do people shower everyday?

cant they just live without it?

Frank Science

11:45 AM

@Noah OFF-TOPIC!

KitFox

Morning.

Any urgent matters this morning?

I will be gone until tonight.

Don't break anything while I'm gone!

Noah

@KitFox

@FrankScience

@KitFox did you win?

did you win?

@FrankScience come on, dude... am I gona get banned for this:)

Mitch

12:16 PM

@cornbreadninja nice story. so it's totally literal. without all the killing and stuff.

@KitFox don't say things like that...it can only be considered a challenge.

Noah

Hello @Mitch

Jez

@Noah she was one of the two elected moderator

Noah

@Jez yea

I thought so

Did she win?

Jez

no, @simchona did

Noah

Or is she gonna marry someone?

I voted for that lady :)

Is she gonna hire me as a right wing guy?

Robusto

1:09 PM

0

Q: What means "Bob" in online games

I don't know if some of you are playing online games, but usually we can read some people saying "bob!" or "you are a bob". I also read some "Stop bobing me" or "you just got bobed" What does it mean exactly, I fail to understand. Thank you for your further help and answer. Regards,

meaning

The comment chain alone is hilarious.

tchrist

@Robusto Your hilarity is my surreality.

I want to say duckduckgoose.

0

A: To "have someone's number"

In Revelation 13:18 (KJV) we read, "Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." These words are usually thought of as pointing to some specific man who fits into the prophecy in the previous verse...

When the Bible is your lens of the world, everything looks scriptural. Or nothing.

user19161

OK I just requested to delete 8 accounts but I will be keeping 3 including the ELU one.

tchrist

It’s good to clean out the sock drawer now and then.

user19161

1:25 PM

Well, I meant those that I don't use, not those that I use to do naughty things to others. I only have at most one account on each site.

RegDwight АΑA

@Avner Kashtan I cannot provide any more information about this because I cannot further assess in this opinion the extent to which this exemption applies to the on line games at issue. — Xavier Vidal Hernández 46 mins ago

I would like to be hilaried, @Rob. but first I have to know what language this is.

user19161

@RegDwightАΑA Clearly pineapple speech. But I also said that of the US judge.

RegDwight АΑA

It doesn't help that I am not familiar with this usage of "Bob" at all.

@JasperLoy yes you did.

user19161

@RegDwightАΑA Oh, someone also called me Spongebob before.

tchrist

Bob’s your uncle.

RegDwight АΑA

1:28 PM

Spongebob's not my uncle. Don't be silly.

user19161

So I have been called Spongebob and also Chicken Little, lol.

tchrist

Of course not. If you’ve a Spongebobbed kid, then Bob’s his uncle.

RegDwight АΑA

@JasperLoy What about Spongelib and Chicken Bottle?

user19161

@RegDwightАΑA You are very creative! Have a cookie.

RegDwight АΑA

There is no Spooner.

Matt Эллен

1:34 PM

2 days ago, by Matt Эллен

@JSBձոգչ I agree. because I am sleeping in tomorrow because I've booked holiday and I have friends from far places visiting

I was entertaining my guests

and sleeping

tchrist

Sleeping entertains your guests?

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightАΑA nor me and Xavier isn't helping at all in anyone understanding

@tchrist when they are sleeping too, yes

tchrist

@MattЭллен It’s his modus inoperandi.

Matt Эллен

:D

tchrist

2:13 PM

-6

Q: What is the meaning of the sentence below?

Grace under pressure is attractive, and reserves make it easy to be graceful.

meaning meaning-in-context multiple-meanings word-meaning

Surprised that it is still open, given the current –6.

Matt Эллен

aye. It already has my vote.

tchrist

Ah, you’re the other one then.

@RegDwightАΑA Nipping sandboxes en route to becoming stinky catboxes, eh?

RegDwight АΑA

Um, what?

tchrist

2:29 PM

Well, Chip isn’t very nice.

tchrist

2:39 PM

I really hate having to put a \x{200A} (read, \N{HAIR SPACE}) after every f that is immediately followed by a ” or " or ’ or ', most especially the italic ones.

Why can browsers still not kern correctly? The font has kerning info in it: so fricking use that already!

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…