English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

user19161

12:00 AM

@jez is still confusing me with blue and red.

@RegDwightАΑA Well, you can see that stuck with me.

Oh FFS the GDF title field defaults to some greyed-out supplication for a longwinded untitle: “what's you english language and usage question? be precise.”.

KitFox

Hey @Jez, do you want to migrate your question to Linguistics?

tchrist

this is probably why people are doing wrong things. like putting questions in titles. like emasuculating their studly caps. like putting more than one sentence there. or frag.

Mahnax

26

Q: As a site about EL&U, should we maintain correct grammar, punctuation, etc. throughout the site?

When a user goes to ask a question, the default text in the title bar is this: Should this be changed to reflect the site's intent? In my opinion, this is a place where rules of the English language should be followed, not ignored, especially by the site itself. Could we get proper capitalizati...

Semi-related.

tchrist

12:02 AM

How do we fix that?

Semi-.

user19161

@tchrist They put the question in the title and put nothing in the question, geezis.

tchrist

My problem is that it’s perversely seducing them into writing super-long full and complete and detailed and with-too-many words questions into the title proper instead of into the body and then having them do things like put questions marks at the end like?

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist I think you misremember the lyrics. Or do I?

Jez

@KitFox Maybe, but it seems pretty well-rooted in English.

user19161

In particular, it is so stupid to say things like "the title says it all".

KitFox

12:05 AM

@Jez I think it can go on either. Are you satisfied with the responses you are getting?

RegDwight АΑA

►

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA Neither. I think you were missing for the salty duck test, is all. Grep and ye shall find. I shan’t repeat it here. At least, not in public.

KitFox

If not, you might rather move it to Ling. They said they would take it if you want to put it there. (@Jez)

Jez

@KitFox yes.

RegDwight АΑA

Hey wait. Why are we moving questions to linguistics?

KitFox

12:06 AM

We're not.

RegDwight АΑA

They should invent some questions themselves.

Jez

they can take my one about how to express the German "bursting like a soap bubble" in English

:-)

user19161

@Jez Sorry I closevoted that one.

RegDwight АΑA

For once, an MC question that is not about vaginas and programming, and we want to give it away?

@Jez now now, don't push your luck too hard. :P

Faster done than said.

tchrist

It weirds me out seeing multiple diamonds in the list of close-voters.

RegDwight АΑA

12:11 AM

0

Q: How should punctuation marks be arranged next to quotation marks or parentheses?

Here is an example: My favorite word is "cat." Here is another example: My favorite word is "cat". Which of these two usages is correct? I am trying to say that "cat" is my favorite word, and not that "cat." (with a period) is my favorite word.

punctuation quotations parentheses

tchrist

0

Q: How should punctuation marks be arranged next to quotation marks or parentheses?

Here is an example: My favorite word is "cat." Here is another example: My favorite word is "cat". Which of these two usages is correct? I am trying to say that "cat" is my favorite word, and not that "cat." (with a period) is my favorite word.

punctuation quotations parentheses

dUPE.

Damn it.

Jinx.

Double dupe.

12:11 AM

18

Q: Why should end punctuation go inside quotes?

I have been/am being taught that end punctuation should always go inside quotes. For example, you are supposed to write: Marvin thought it was "awful." The problem is I do not see how does this make sense. Intuitively, I always wrote: Marvin thought it was "awful". as that makes more ...

punctuation quotes period

tchrist

That's so dupey it could rear-lead a troop of dwarves.

user19161

@RegDwightАΑA Wrong.

RegDwight АΑA

@JasperLoy NO U.

user19161

Only periods and commas always go inside in AmE. Even question marks follow logic in AmE. How many times must I say this?

tchrist

“Which of these two is correct?” is too damned Machnichean for my tastes.

@JasperLoy Be careful, or I’ll send you a paperweight.

Mahnax

12:14 AM

@tchrist I was concerned for a moment there.

Jez

> Evan Carroll remarked: So long as they're interested in English I see no reason to differentiate on nebulous qualifiers. I speak English naively, and I'm still learning it!

Mahnax

BRB, must launder clothes.

Jez

he does seem to speak a little naively

tchrist

@JasperLoy In other words, this is not without exception, and I have a happy humpty-jillion of them I could send you by way of a decidedly paperweighty tome.

Jez

was Evan Carroll there as the comic relief or something?

user19161

12:17 AM

@tchrist OK OK you win!

tchrist

Usually.

RegDwight АΑA

So, um, no votes to close? Slackers.

tchrist

Sigh!

user19161

@RegDwightАΑA Nobody using Slackware here.

user19161

@RegDwightАΑA I am too busy thinking about that tome.

tchrist

12:19 AM

@RegDwightАΑA Too much trouble to field the half-dozen 20k-socks it’d take to make it worthwhile.

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist I am looking for a present for you. Having a hard time. Had to ask around in the Teachers' Lounge, even. Which is all but deserted right now.

tchrist

@RegDwightАΑA How, or why, or how and why, did you wipe out my dup-close vote on that one whose fate you just clinched?

is very confused

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist I didn't wipe out anything. You were too slow, young padawan.

tchrist

Was not!

Voted to close, said it took 4 more votes.

RegDwight АΑA

Was for Yoda.

tchrist

12:22 AM

Then suddenly, it was closed by you and ’twas as though I never were.

user19161

It is getting quite boring on ELU. I think I will come to chat only.

tchrist

I must be on drugs.

RegDwight АΑA

My aura is too strong. Post a bug report on meta.

@tchrist must is a strong word. May will suffice.

tchrist

@JasperLoy Yes, ESL&U is aburrísimo.

Jez

My dad was telling me tonight how he'd just got thru War and Peace

dunno how one can stay even remotely interested in something like that

tchrist

12:25 AM

Somewhat it’s probably our own fault.

user19161

@Jez Is that a book or game?

Jez

book

user19161

Nowadays they make books into movies and games.

tchrist

@Jez Due to its length, its subject matter, or because you have to be bilingual to read it?

What are the programmatically precise rules on SE user-names’ contents?

Jez

@tchrist bilingual?

opavote.org/results/495069/0

Where's Evan Carroll there?

user19161

12:32 AM

@Jez He got kicked out.

Jez

when?

tchrist

@Jez It’s written in French and Russian.

Jez

@tchrist i'm guessing he read a translated version

tchrist

Both? That sort of messes things up, doesn’t it?

They should have left the French as is.

When they translate Eco, they only translate the Italian, and leave the rest.

Jez

what's the rest in, English?

tchrist

12:34 AM

No, that wouldn't work.

Latin, French, Spanish, German, whatever.

You don't want to translate from Italian to English, and leave English.

You would have to translate the English to something else.

20

Q: What are the rules governing display names and avatars?

The discussion in this train wreck of a "question" led me to think of a real question. What display names and avatars are off-limits on the Stack Exchange network? I think I remember seeing a fake Jeff Atwood in the past on Meta, and a fake Jon Skeet on SO. If I recall correctly, the former had ...

discussion usernames

Not what I was looking for.

user19161

@tchrist Oh dear, I hope a blue square is allowed.

tchrist

16

Q: What characters are allowed for the display name?

I tried editing my display name and for some names it gives me this error: Display Name can only contain a-z, 0-9, spaces, apostrophes or hyphens and must start with a letter or number That is clearly not the case, because it will take the following names: NullUserException -龍- NullUserEx...

support usernames

I hate it when they choose bug compatibility over standards compatibility.

RegDwight АΑA

A bug can be a standard.

Hm. This is the longest I ever spent on looking for a present.

TL was actually helpful.

I'm so close.

But I gotta go get some sleep.

Night all.

Mahnax

12:58 AM

Bonne nuit.

tchrist

How is length defined? And what is the length maximum? What about a name like ́́ Ｐｒｉｍｅｒｏ̂̊? That has 19 code points, 15 graphemes due to the combining characters, and 22 print columns due to the wide characters. Oh, and Deseret is in the SMP, which of course does not change the length in codepoints. In case you have trouble bare-eying my string, it is:

"\x{1043C}\x{1042F}\x{301}\x{10445}\x{10428}\x{10449}\x{1042F}\x{301}\x{1043B} \x{FF30}\x{FF52}\x{FF49}\x{FF4D}\x{FF45}\x{FF52}\x{FF4F}\x{302}\x{30A}"

. — tchrist 38 secs ago

They are so going to hate me: I'm intentionally tickling all the Microsoft bugs they refuse to fix.

Holy cow!

No Deseret in chat!!

𐐼𐐯́𐑅𐐨𐑉𐐯́𐐻 Ｐｒｉｍｅｒｏ̂̊

Hm that worked.

Maybe this won’t...

𐐼𐐯́𐑅𐐨𐑉𐐯́𐐻 Ｐｒｉｍｅｒｏ̂̊

Weird.

𐐼𐐯́𐑅𐐨𐑉𐐯́𐐻 Ｐｒｉｍｅｒｏ̂̊

Mahnax

𐤇𐤎𐤉𐤁𐤊𐤀

ᎷᎪᎻⓃᎪ𝘟.

tchrist

Very good!

Mahnax

The Cherokee alphabet doesn't have lookalikes for N or X.

tchrist

Cherokee usually looks better than the Phoenician.

I saw that.

Mahnax

1:11 AM

Good.

ᛖᚢᚺᚻᚢᛕᛋ

tchrist

Runix.

Mahnax

𐌼𐌻𐌷𐌿𐌰𐍇.

This is fun.

tchrist

Gothic.

Mahnax

སཬམྐ.

tchrist

It's scary that I recognize them all.

Gothic is Great.

Me no do Tibetan.

Mahnax

1:13 AM

Haha OK.

tchrist

𒂊 𒂭 𒂱 𒃔 𒇉 𒋧 𒋼 𒌣

Isn't that cool?

Mahnax

Oh, I get boxes!

Nuts. First time.

What are they?

𐩕

tchrist

\N{CUNEIFORM SIGN E} \N{CUNEIFORM SIGN EZEN TIMES KASKAL SQUARED} \N{CUNEIFORM SIGN EZEN TIMES LI} \N{CUNEIFORM SIGN GA2 TIMES HI PLUS LI} \N{CUNEIFORM SIGN LAGAB TIMES HAL} \N{CUNEIFORM SIGN SUM} \N{CUNEIFORM SIGN TE} \N{CUNEIFORM SIGN UMUM}

What, you don't have a Cuneiform font installed? :)

Mahnax

Sumero-Akkadian?

@tchrist Nope.

tchrist

KHAROSHTHI PUNCTUATION LOTUS

@Mahnax But yes.

Get the Akkadian bits from George Douros's site.

Oops, wrong one.

There's music, too: 𝅘𝅥𝅲

The way that works is one base note plus two combining marks: one for the stem and one for the fins.

Mahnax

1:17 AM

Hm, I got the Akkadian font from the site and it still doesn't work.

tchrist

Hm.

Usually you don't even have to restart Safari.

Let me check to make sure that's really where I am getting them from.

The way you check is open the FontBook application from the Applications directory in Finder.

Then hit Command-3 so you can paste/type a sample.

Then enter the characters you want to know where are. For example, the line of cuneiform.

Then you select the font, any of them it makes no difference, and see what it looks like. Should look like crud.

Then use downarrow to move through the fonts until one appears that doesn't show boxes.

That is how you find out which fonts support those characters.

Mahnax

tchrist

Yes, exactly. Good.

Mahnax

Hm. I will restart Safari then, one moment.

tchrist

Hit Command-1 for their sample, Command-2 for the full catalogue, and Command-3 for your sample.

Mahnax

1:22 AM

Oh, there we go. It's showing up properly now.

𒊹

tchrist

Oh good.

Mahnax

Sumero-Akkadian is cool!

tchrist

If you hit command-2 for repertoire in FontBook, then scoll to the bottom, you will see all the new glyphs.

user19161

Enjoy your hols @mahnax. I am going to bed now. Good night.

tchrist

Do you have these:
𓀀 𓀁 𓀂 𓀃 𓀄 𓀅 𓀆 𓀇 𓀈 𓀉 𓀊 𓀋 𓀌 𓀍 𓀎 𓀏 𓀐 𓀑 𓀒
𓀓 𓀔 𓀕 𓀖 𓀗 𓀘 𓀙 𓀚 𓀛 𓀜 𓀝 𓀞 𓀟 𓀠 𓀡 𓀢 𓀣 𓀤 𓀥 𓀦 𓀧 𓀨 𓀩 𓀪 𓀫 𓀬 𓀭 𓀮 𓀯 𓀰 𓀱 𓀲 𓀳 𓀴 𓀵 𓀶
𓀷 𓀸 𓀹 𓀺 𓀻 𓀼 𓀽 𓀾 𓀿 𓁀 𓁁 𓁂 𓁃 𓁄 𓁅 𓁆 𓁇 𓁈 𓁉 𓁊 𓁋 𓁌 𓁍 𓁎 𓁏 𓁐 𓁑 𓁒 𓁓 𓁔 𓁕 𓁖 𓁗 𓁘 𓁙 𓁚
𓁛 𓁜 𓁝 𓁞 𓁟 𓁠 𓁡 𓁢 𓁣 𓁤 𓁥 𓁦 𓁧 𓁨 𓁩 𓁪 𓁫 𓁬 𓁭 𓁮 𓁯 𓁰 𓁱 𓁲 𓁳 𓁴 𓁵 𓁶 𓁷 𓁸 𓁹 𓁺 𓁻 𓁼 𓁽 𓁾
𓁿 𓂀 𓂁 𓂂 𓂃 𓂄 𓂅 𓂆 𓂇 𓂈 𓂉 𓂊

Mahnax

1:23 AM

@JasperLoy Night.

@tchrist Nope.

tchrist

They're Egyptian Hieroglyphics!

Let me find out which font they're in. Just a sec. It's from Douros, but I forget which.

Mahnax

OK.

tchrist

I am so so stupid.

It is Aegyptus. :)

Mahnax

Maybe I'll just install them all.

tchrist

There are some cool ones there if you do Greek.

Because there are all these different styles of Greek.

Mahnax

1:25 AM

I don't, unfortunately.

tchrist

Well, I like Alfios as a regular text font.

From Douros. From Apple (well, Adobe) I like Arno Pro, because it comes in so many weights and such.

You already have Arno Pro.

It comes with all Apples.

Alfios I use in my "slide" presentations, because it's oldschool-looking.

Arno is too, but there was something I wanted Alfios for. Maybe the capital eszette.

Mahnax

@tchrist I do now.

tchrist

The Renaissance ("old-style") fonts from the 1400s and 1500s are the finest type faces ever cut.

The last 30 years has seen a wonderful resurgence in recreations of those.

They're called "humanist" fonts.

Mahnax

Hm, this might be a novice question, but can I access these fonts with custom personal CSS?

tchrist

The industrial looking ones that happened in the 1800s and 1900s were really ugly.

That's not a novice question.

Is this something you want to work just for yourself, or for other people who are not on your computer?

In other words, are you asking how to embed full fonts, or just specify a different font?

If it is for yourself on your computer, it is easy.

Mahnax

1:30 AM

For example, if I am making an extension, and want to change the font used on the website, can I access the fonts via normal CSS?

tchrist

But if other people are to see it, it is harder — but still possible.

I do this for loading Tolkien fonts.

Mahnax

It's just for me.

tchrist

Oh, then yes.

That's trivial.

Or the next best thing.

Mahnax

body{
    font-family:"Alfios" !important;
}

tchrist

Do you know how to set a font face/family?

Mahnax

1:31 AM

So that will work?

tchrist

Yes, that's right.

Mahnax

Cool.

tchrist

Normally you write something like "Alfios, Georgia, serif" so there is a font path.

In case someday you look at it on a place without the first one.

So it degrades gracefully. ish.

Let me check mine.

Mahnax

@tchrist Yeah, I know.

I was too lazy, though.

tchrist

font-family:
             'Alfios',
             'Arno Pro',
             'ITC Garamond Std',
             'Adobe Garamond Pro',
             'Garamond Premier Pro',
             Symbola,
             Georgia,
             'Times New Roman',
             Times,
             serif
        ;

Pretty silly.

If you look at the lowercase letter e in a font, in the roman version not the italic, look at two things.

First, how big is the opening? Large openings (called apertures) are good, because they make it easier to read.

Second, look at the slope of the bar on the e.

Is it \ or — or / .... ?

I'm exaggerating, but that's the gist.

Those with \ are usually humanist fonts in the style of the original masters.

Mahnax

1:36 AM

I see.

tchrist

They are repros of the first 50 years of movable type.

After that it turns to — but the aperture stays large, and the ends of the letters are "lachrymal".

Can you guess what that means?

Mahnax

Drooping?

shrugs

tchrist

Tear-drop shaped.

Mahnax

Interesting.

tchrist

Not abrupt balls, but smooth tear drops.

Mahnax

1:39 AM

tchrist

The romantic era had really exaggerated "ends", just little balls.

Oh wow, you set the room font!

Mahnax

This is cool.

tchrist

And chose an italic, too.

How did you do that?

I hate the room font.

I wish I knew how to change it.

Mahnax

I made a quick little Safari extension.

tchrist

Oh.

I have no idea how to do that.

Mahnax

1:40 AM

It overrides the font in most places, but it's not perfect.

In Safari, making an extension is super easy.

tchrist

I did that with Opera.

I don't know how in Safari.

Wait, yes I do.

Mahnax

Which browser are you currently using?

tchrist

Do you mean you went to the default sans choice and lied?

That's what I did for Opera.

Mahnax

No.

tchrist

Usually Safari.

Always Safari when in chat.

Mahnax

1:41 AM

I made an actual extension.

tchrist

Does this involve programming?

cornbread ninja

@Mahnax did you decide on your gift?

tchrist

It must then.

Mahnax

@tchrist A wee bit.

@cornbreadninja Nope.

tchrist

Not that this is apt to scare me away. I’ve been programming since I was your age.

Mahnax

1:42 AM

Would you like me to teach you? It is really simple.

cornbread ninja

@tchrist that are supposed to mimic handwriting.

tchrist

Sure!

user19161

2

Q: Meaning of "a glimpse of insight"

I understand the words glimpse and insight, but what is the meaning of the whole idiom a glimpse of insight?

meaning idioms

tchrist

GR. Close. Kill. Delete.

user19161

I would not use glimpse of insight myself. Nonetheless it seems to be used quite often. I hope my answer makes sense.

Mahnax

1:43 AM

Well, the first thing you need to do is get a Safari developer license, which takes maybe 5 minutes and is free.

user19161

This is a very old question though.

tchrist

@cornbreadninja Yes, exactly. I didn't want to flood him.

user19161

If you think my answer does not make sense, please comment there.

Mahnax

developer.apple.com/programs/start/register/create.php

cornbread ninja

@tchrist Symbola?

Mahnax

1:44 AM

Start there, once you are registered, let me know.

tchrist

I tried to explain letters' axes to @Cerberus last night, and it took a bit.

user19161

@Mahnax Are you an Apple developer?

Mahnax

@JasperLoy Technically, I am registered as a Safari developer.

user19161

@Mahnax Ah, I am registered as an ELU user.

Mahnax

@JasperLoy Very good.

user19161

1:47 AM

@Mahnax Can you take a look at my answer above please?

Mahnax

Oh dear, I've gone and done it now.

@JasperLoy Sure.

user19161

@Mahnax WTF happened?

tchrist

Not pretty.

Mahnax

Hideous, in fact.

tchrist

Do you use Grab and then upload to do that?

Mahnax

1:48 AM

No, I use a keyboard shortcut and then upload.

tchrist

Oh.

Mahnax

Command + Shift + 4

user19161

Take Screenshot on Linux works well.

tchrist

I always forget about Command + Shift + 4.

Mahnax

Ah, much better. Back to Gardiner.

user19161

1:49 AM

Chrome also seems to be OK with chat now.

tchrist

I can't remember why I started using /Applications/Utilities/Grab.

Mahnax

For some reason, I thought you were on Linux, @tchrist.

tchrist

Nope. No Linux at all.

I'm a Unix guy.

I have Macs and OpenBSD systems. Mac has FreeBSD underneath.

user19161

Linux is not exactly Unix.

Mahnax

I see.

tchrist

1:50 AM

Sure, it is.

Compared with Microsoft, Linux is certainly the same as Unix.

user19161

Should I switch to BSD, and why?

tchrist

No, you should use whatever you are comfortable with.

I use BSD for other reasons.

I've used it for 30 years now.

So I am used to it.

That means when I open a Terminal window on the Mac, everything is exactly where it is supposed to be. Or nearly so.

user19161

I read that the Linux and BSD kernels are almost equally good with the former having slightly better hardware support. However the Hurd kernel is still in need of development.

tchrist

I didn't even know there was a Hurd kernel. Thought they'd given up. I don't follow Linux.

I use OpenBSD for my firewalls.

user19161

The GNU project till this day does not have a real kernel!

tchrist

1:52 AM

That's what I thought.

user19161

Also waiting for ReactOS to be usable.

tchrist

@Mahnax Apple will be mailing me my password. I forgot it, and am already registered.

cornbread ninja

@Mahnax pfft

Mahnax

@tchrist OK.

cornbread ninja

paying to develop on a platform. hmpf

Mahnax

1:53 AM

@cornbreadninja Wot?

It's free!

Robusto

@RegDwightАΑA Oh, and BTW, between then and now I had a little something called bone surgery with a lengthy rehabilitation. So forgive me if I don't remember every trivial bit of info about a game I grew terminally bored with.

cornbread ninja

raises eyebrow

I start Unix Scripting & Utilities in a few weeks.

user19161

@Robusto Yes I remember that.

cornbread ninja

I'm pumped.

Mahnax

@tchrist So once you have the license all installed and whatnot, open up your extension builder in Safari.

user19161

1:54 AM

@cornbreadninja A course?