English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

00:05

Fitchburg? We have a Fitchburg in Massachusetts. I doubt that's the one you mean, because we don't have an isthmus.

tchrist

Call them whatever the other kids call them, of course. :)

I updated my answer for you with brief OED excerpts.

It does seem that seesaw may be more "official" in the UK, as it seems to label titter-totter/teeter-totter as being now "dialectic and US". I wonder when it turned into a dialectic form not an official one, since it seems to antedate seesaw.

Robusto

@tchrist titter-totter sounds distinctly British. I mean, just imagine Anthony Hopkins saying it.

tchrist

Naw, he'd Welsh on the word and just call it a titter.

Robusto

Hey, has the election started yet?

tchrist

If only.

Hopkins is Welsh, you understand.

Robusto

00:10

@tchrist Actually, when I saw Alexander and heard his voice-over narration, I had this wicked idea that someone should sneak up behind him and give him a gigantic wedgie.

tchrist

Bit uppercrusty for you?

Robusto

Well, he does a convincing butler, I'll give you that.

tchrist

So does Stephen Fry.

Robusto

Hey, Richard Burton was Welsh as well.

Spare Oom

@tchrist I think he's my favourite butler, or Jeeves is anyway.

Robusto

00:12

And it's funny that the words Welsh and Wales are from Anglo-Saxon.

tchrist

Yep. And what they mean.

Robusto

Foreigner. Hehe.

tchrist

Whereas Rob Brydon does a convincing Anthony Hopkins.

Or at least, an amusing one.

Robusto

Now, Anthony Hopkins doing a convincing Christopher Walken — that would be awesome indeed.

"Eh, I've got a fever and the only cure is MORE COWBELL!"

Now that I think on it, though, I do see similarities in the acting styles of Anthony Hopkins and Richard Burton. Both had a way of projecting their lines and then pulling them back in, just at the end, as if they wanted to keep something important about the words for themselves alone.

Spare Oom

Anthony Hopkins is a good actor, with a range.

Robusto

00:19

He tends to start a sentence in a rushofwordsallpulledintighttogether and then ... just pull ... the last few ... back.

tchrist

►

Ben Kingsley doing Anthony Hopkins.

Not in that way, though.

Robusto

But listen to the longer sentences in the AH voice. They rush out quick and then slow at the end. Just what I'm saying.

Nice clip, btw.

tchrist

I see what you mean.

Spare Oom

00:36

Hopkins and Burton sound educated. I went on a tour bus in Scotland with a Welsh driver who sounded quite different. youtube.com/watch?v=AIJkHq3PIv0

Mahnax

Good evening, folks.

Robusto

Hola.

Spare Oom

Hi.

Mahnax

How's everyone?

Spare Oom

Fine, thanks for asking. And you?

Robusto

00:40

I'm wishing the election was over so we can get rid of all the drama and settle the eff down.

2

Mahnax

@SpareOom Good! I finished my driving education class today.

@Robusto Soon, hopefully.

tchrist

@Mahnax What country do you live in?

Mahnax

@tchrist Canada.

Spare Oom

@Mahnax Will the driving exam be separate?

What's the minimum driving age there?

tchrist

Hm well, then I imagine the driving class was easier than it tends to be in Europe. Whether it's as easy as down here in the States, I don't know. Mine was part of my sophomore year in high school, a regular high school class.

Mahnax

00:43

@SpareOom Well, there is an in-car test, but that's in September for me.

@tchrist It was tremendously easy. It used to be a part of HS here, but not anymore.

tchrist

Yes, they have discontinued that here, too. I'm not sure why.

Mahnax

@SpareOom 14 for the learner's permit, 16 for the GDL class 5 license, and 18 for the non-GDL class 5.

Carlo_R.

@Robusto A further example is in words ending in "ump", which are often associated with heaviness and falling weight. For example: clump, dump, hump, lump, plump, slump and tump; but RegDwight BBB has looked my question and I cannot alone improve that.

Mahnax

I'm taking the class now, so that when I turn 16 I can get my license, and a 10 % discount on the insurance.

simchona

@Carlo_R. Jump.

Carlo_R.

00:46

@simchona I totally ignore you.

Mahnax

@Carlo_R. …rump?

Or do they have to be verbs?

simchona

@Carlo_R. Groovy.

Mahnax

@Carlo_R. By responding to her, you have failed to ignore. -10 points.

Carlo_R.

@Mahnax - I totally ignore you.

I only talk with Robusto

waiwai933

This room was placed in timeout for 30 seconds; users are reminded to remain civil.

simchona

00:47

@Carlo_R. Well, you've kind of ignored the current active chatters then.

Mahnax

I really do love that animation though.

I wonder, does it work with IE6?

tchrist

I have the OED and ain’t afraid to use it: bump chump clump crump dump flump frump glump grump gump hump jump lump mump plump pump rump schlump scrump slump stump sump thrump thump trump tump whump wump yump

simchona

Trump is a good one.

Carlo_R.

@tchrist I want to talk only with Robusto.

tchrist

I like thrump.

Tough noogies.

simchona

00:49

@carlo no such thing as private chat, sadly

tchrist

Hallelujah.

Spare Oom

@tchrist I didn't take driver's ed. in high school, because they'd quit teaching on manual transmissions and Dad didn't approve of forcing automatics on the public in such a sneaky way.

Mahnax

@Carlo_R. Feel free to make a room for the two of you then; it's not private, but it's more secluded than here.

simchona

Amen to that @tchrist

Mahnax

That does require Robusto to participate though.

tchrist

00:51

glums

Robusto

@Carlo_R. What's up, Carlo?

simchona

@mah odds are against that

Mahnax

@simchona Heh.

Carlo_R.

@Robusto Are you sure that that phenomenon is not known in English language?

Spare Oom

@tchrist I bet it has to do with the more litigious tendency here now.

tchrist

00:53

Ah.

Mahnax

Oh, I have to go. Bye!

simchona

Bye @mah!

tchrist

Nice kid.

simchona

He is.

Miss him already.

Carlo_R.

Sorry @Robusto. I'm really shocked! Good night.

Mahnax

01:01

Well, I was supposed to have gone.

simchona

You're such a shocker @rob

Carlo_R.

@waiwai933 Is it possible to make electoral campaign in this chat?

I want to support MATT and KITFOX.

Mahnax

gasps

simchona

@mah where were you off to?

Mahnax

@simchona I was supposed to leave for a friend's house.

I was going to drive there, but I guess my dad's not ready to go yet.

Robusto

01:06

@Carlo_R. I'm not clear what point you're trying to make. Certain sounds can be interpreted onomatopoetically, but there are no hard and fast rules regarding them.

simchona

@mah I see. That used to happen to me all the time. The parental psych out.

Mahnax

@simchona Hehe. I think he's still eating, actually.

Carlo_R.

@Robusto : Ah, I see. Thank you.

Good night everyone.

simchona

@mah Im also trying to ignore the elephant in the room.

tchrist

Now, it shall be.

Mahnax

01:09

@simchona Aha, ulterior motives.

simchona

@mah yup. You caught me.

Mahnax

@simchona Well, you turned yourself in.

simchona

@mah I aim to be accountable for my actions.

Mahnax

@simchona Ah, a good quality in a moderator.

simchona

@mah that, and I didn't want you to be confused if it were too much of a non sequitur

Mahnax

01:12

@simchona Fair enough.

Wow, still haven't left.

Spare Oom

@Mahnax Does your friend expect you at a certain time? Are you late for a very important date?

Mahnax

@SpareOom I've informed him that I'll be late already, it'll be fine.

Robusto

01:43

@simchona I figured the quickest solution was just to give him an answer.

Et la voilà !

simchona

01:57

@rob but you're so shocking! Clutch the pearls!

Robusto

I do shock.

Night all.

Spare Oom

Good night.

Mitch

02:56

@simchona Contrary to all the closer's opinions, the phenomenon that CR is speculating about is real. The one answer to his question is the closest. Just because hes difficult doesn't mean he doesn't have interesting ideas. In fact the way he worded the question, it wasn't particularly problematic.

He was asking 'what do you call this phenomenon in English?' which is an excellent strategy to ask a very constructive answerable on-topic question which would also encourage answer the non-constructive (expansive, explanatory, list like things) that we are all really curious about..

namely what are some examples (like the one he's talking about). He's not asking for an exact rule, like '-ip' -always- means ... what is it ... quick and brisk. Just does it often, or at least predictably under certain contexts. (of course that rule (if there is one) wouldn't apply to the suffix '-ip').

simchona

> I'm wondering if there is a name for sounds, like the above mentioned, which seem to express a particular quality whatever words they appear.

@Mitch He's trying to find a hard and fast rule

And it's not working

Mitch

Sure, because he doesn't know, so he doesn't know if there is a hard and fast rule or not, so he's curious and asking

I can't ask you to cut him some slack, because he is a jerk. but that question is substantive.

simchona

Even if the question at its basis is constructive, his attitude towards people trying to help him isn't.

Oh, you just said that.

Mitch

I have no argument there.

simchona

I feel like various people tried to help him in comments and tease out a better question

Mitch

03:04

right. he has no ability to read other people's intentions (or the lack thereof), and is ...paranoid(?) which makes him act like (and be) a jerk.

simchona

To that end, the question was locked. I think if you're willing to edit it and perhaps make it clearer (the picture isn't helping), I would vote to reopen.

Mitch

that teasing out came across more like baiting. His way of speaking really elicits the desire in myself to respond snarkily, too.

!! I didn't even notice the picture, thought it was an ad and my eyes have gotten used to ignoring them.

simchona

It wasn't just how he was speaking. There are deleted comments in which he, essentially, told me and MetaEd to go "study English" and stop talking about things we didn't understand

Mitch

hm...'editing' is disabled on that question (probably because of the lock), even if I wanted to take the time to fix it.

simchona

It's what he's saying, not just how he's saying it

Mitch

03:08

It doesn't look fixable beyond...and I think this is my main point here..beyond changing the author to someone who is not ... so reactive

simchona

6 hours ago, by simchona

@simchona The letter "s" is involved in a number of examples. Please, see what I have already suggested to MetaEd. And, please, do not make fun of issues that you have not, as it seems, the slightest knowledge. — Carlo_R. 31 secs ago

Mitch

He's a jerk and most everything he writes has a sting.

simchona

The way his question is written and supported, though, I still think it's not constructive.

Mitch

When it doesn't it feels like somebody else must have written it (I'm guessing he spends a lot of time fixing up some of his writing with a spell checker and grammar fixer)

simchona

Asking a question requires the OP to be able to explain more about what he means, and his comments didn't make it clearer

I'm confused because his questions are a lot better than his comments. Or chat messages.

Mitch

03:13

His ccomments depend on fast thinking and his lack of command of English is a mental resource drain, making it difficult to respond as well as a native speaker. (I have no doubt he has mood, affect, and intent (the psychological things not the linguistic ones) difficulties in his native language.)

simchona

So you think he's paranoid in any language?

Mitch

he spends tie on his questions and answers, but his comments he seems to write quickly (and with heat) so all his language deficiencies come out.

simchona

He's determined to campaign against me. Has spent the last two days trying to figure out where he could post.

Mitch

IANAClinical Psychologist...but he is unable to 'get it', or learn ho to compensate.

simchona

Did a bunch in the Town Hall.

Mitch

03:16

Oh yeah, I was there lurking...his behavior there was of a newbie, he didn't understand the direction of things, like he didn't read the directions. and he also showed some of his stings.

He and EC were the nutjobs.

simchona

He didn't even listen to Grace Note.

Mitch

and he was on his phone. he was basically contributing additionally to his already impoverished resources. He kept saying things like 'what is happening here?' (in addition to his usually idiocies)

simchona

My favorite word, whether he likes it or not, is bubble.

Shog9

@simchona What?!! YOU ARE ALL THAT IS WRONG WITH THIS SITE!!!

simchona

@Shog9 cowers I NEED TO BE MORE TOLLERANT [sic]

Shog9

03:25

simchona

Is that the model for next year's ASCII contest?

Shog9

Best likeness wins immediately.

simchona

<[]

There, all done.

Shog9

you can't fool me. That's Kirby in a box.

simchona

scoffs

Kirby ate the box.

Shog9

03:31

Ok, so obviously you can fool me. But it's still Kirby.

simchona

Or...is it.

dun dun dun

I give up, I don't know what it is.

tchrist

@simchona has become Death, Destroyer of Words. tolerant < tolerāre to bear, endure; but tollerant < tollere to raise, lift, destroy.

And it should be tollerent.

simchona

@tchrist Let's just call me Omnomlogosaurus

Mitch

@tchrist she's mocking (just in case you didn't realize)

simchona

2 days ago, by Carlo_R.

I WANT A COMMUNITY WELL GOVERNED, BUT - AT SAME TIME - REALLY TOLLERANT IN THE REAL SPIRIT OF ELU. VOTE FOR MATT, VOTE FOR KITFOX

Mitch

03:36

and I just saw cornbreadninja's starred message. I don't get why not myself.

simchona

No idea.

tchrist

If @simchona doesn’t get elected, we’re all going to have nuns singing in our heads for a long, long time.

simchona

Only because you wrote the lyrics

tchrist

I wanted to share my pain.

Mitch

@tchrist my (mental) answer to that question? 'speech impediment' All the Romans in 'Life of Brian' (or was that 'r' also?)

tchrist

03:39

Boy are you in for it now.

►

Mitch

in the same questionable way that could apply to the castilian lithperth.

tchrist

Thwow him to the floow!

Mitch

@tchrist that was fast.

ok that was hilarious, but proves something else than my point. (and that ...um...speech ...um...difference is a change of r to w which I don't the name of that either.

tchrist

You realize of course that there are no Castilians who lisp apart from those surpassingly scant few unfortunates with a speech impediment.

Zeeze English, zay zink zay are zo funny when all zee day long, zay are zorever lisping.

Ya gotta love the comment: The extras playing the guards were told to stand on set, look serious and would be fired if they so muched as laughed. They were really trying not to laugh for fear they'd lose their jobs, that's why it's so convincing. And hilarious.

Mitch

03:59

the -intermedial- lenition of s to th, which foreigners tend to think of as a lisp.

@simchona there is no hard and fast rule, but there are lots of instances that are very suggestive 'gl-' for lightness 'glisten', 'gleam' 'glitter'. '-ip' doesn't work for me with his description. I vaguely remember a linguistics phd working on this.

tchrist

Say what?

What do you mean by intermedial?

What do you mean by lenition?

I cannot see how either applies.

Frank Science

04:24

Can So be put as an intial word of a sentence which means therefore?

Cameron

07:42

@FrankScience Yes, though I would say that it is probably more common in speech than in writing.

Frank Science

@Cameron What about the style of ..., and and .... And?

Cameron

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you asking if you can start a sentence with "and"?

Frank Science

08:07

one style is "blahblahblah, and"

the other is "blahblahblah. And"

Robusto

10:07

@tchrist Funniest four minutes in film history. Absolutely.

Matt Эллен

11:01

gen ref:

1

Q: When did the term "Jay" used as "unintelligent person"?

While I was reading an article about the etymology of jaywalking, I stumbled upon this phrase: “Jay” used to be a generic term for someone who was an idiot, dull, rube, unsophisticated, poor, or simpleton. When did people used to use the term Jay as unintelligent person(or idiot)?

etymology

skullpatrol

I like the "impertinent chatterer" connotation.

Would that make the blue jay the opposite of the owl?

Matt Эллен

almost certainly :D

Robusto

11:36

So we have the jay ... but where is the owl today?

speedyGonzales

hi

Matt Эллен

You're not an owl @speedyGonzales :Þ

awe

@MattЭллен I'm not sure that the answer with reference to etymonline.com is complete enough. It says: "Applied to humans in sense of "impertinent chatterer, flashy dresser" from 1620s." I would say thisa is not entirely the same as what is asked in the question. I would say it needs other answers for when this was taken further to mean "unintelligent person".

Based on that, I don't agree with you that this is "General reference"

Matt Эллен

@awe you have a point. You should put that as a comment.

maybe point that out to the answerer aswell

awe

@MattЭллен I have done so now. If you agree with me, maybe you should also remove you comment to the question for general reference..?

Matt Эллен

11:46

aye

awe

..and if you flagged it, undo the flag..

Matt Эллен

well, that's not systematically possible - I can't unclosevote

awe

@MattЭллен OK. I have not done it much, so I don't know the system that well... ;-)

Matt Эллен

but don't worry. if it gets closed then it will get reopened

Matt Эллен

12:02

time for this jay to fly

awe

@MattЭллен Bye

RegDwight АΑA

12:16

@Carlo_R. and @simchona and everyone else: actually you can have your privacy right here in this room. Click on a user's gravatar and you'll see the option "ignore this user". Put it to good use.

simchona

@reg if you ignore someone, they can still see your messages can't they?

skullpatrol

You are "ignoring" them they may or may not ignore you.

simchona

That's what I thought

He's campaigning in comments now

KitFox

Oh for heaven's sake. It's only going to be helpful to you @sim.

RegDwight АΑA

@simchona I don't see a reason why two people wouldn't ignore each other. Or why certain users couldn't be ignored by everyone, forcing them to just leave.

@KitFox yeah I think that's the funniest thing. Carlo is actually shooting himself in the foot with his campaigning, while sim might be shooting herself in hers by propagating it.

Cerberus

12:25

Exactly.

KitFox

brb rebooting

skullpatrol

We have a lot of these ego clashes in the math chat room. In my opinion, "ignoring" the problem only makes it worse.

KitFox

Really? How do you resolve the issue than?

skullpatrol

Duels.

RegDwight АΑA

We tried. Didn't work out.

simchona

12:33

@reg I won't deny I could be shooting myself in the foot. I think there's a core issue with his behavior, election or not, that should be addressed.

tchrist

@simchona Addressed by whom? Him? Moderators? The community?

KitFox

Some gave them plum cake and drummed them out of town.

skullpatrol

A lot of the users in that room are "ignoring" me because they blame me for dethroning the previous room owner.

But, in my opinion, there was "a core issue with his behavior" that needed to be addressed.

simchona

@tchrist mods

KitFox

What do you think the mods ought to do?

tchrist

12:39

Communication doesn't seem to have had much noticeable effect. So you're saying enforcement? No, I don't have another solution, and I am not criticizing you if this is yours. I just don't know what will work.

The combination of intelligence and slowlearneritis is not unknown, unfortunately.

RegDwight АΑA

0

Q: Is it proper to use "the" before the name of a government organization?

When I listen to major news programs, often I notice that they seem to intentionally omit "the" before the name of the government organizations. For example: We contacted E.P.A. for comment but they refused our requests. or Others consider the actions of treasury to be detrimental to th...

usage definite-article

I think this is a dupe.

KitFox

I thought so too, but I couldn't find anything.

tchrist

I am afraid that anything that's heavy-handed would be making more trouble than the problem it is attempting to solve in this case.

KitFox

Oh, wait. Something with NASA in it, maybe?

tchrist

Or FBI.

KitFox

12:41

4

Q: Using the definite article with acronyms and initialisms

I'm wondering when to use or not to use the definite article, when using acronyms or initialisms in a sentence. Is there a rule for this, or does it depend on the context? For example, let's look at some example sentences DDR = detailed design review. NASA is planning to launch the final shutt...

acronyms definite-article

Wait, that's not quite right, is it?

tchrist

Not quite.

Because it has to do with how people in Washington talk about federal institutions without the article that the rest of us use. I got a call from FBI this morning. Stuff like that.

KitFox

Seems like you should use "the" because there is only one and you are specifically referring to it.

tchrist

Well, I would.

RegDwight АΑA

I was actually searching for "the FBI", yes. Saw that question and overlooked it.

tchrist

But people inside the Beltway often do not.

simchona

12:43

@kit I'm not saying "ban him". I'm saying that I feel an escalation is necessary because the issue hasn't improved. Mod-user chat, maybe.

tchrist

Or CIA. Really any of the government alphabet-soup agencies.

KitFox

Feels like it should be "the Treasury" or "treasury officials," too.

Spare Oom

@simchona You're so introllerant.

KitFox

14

Q: Using the definite article before a country/state name

The Punjab is a rich state. Is it correct to use the before Punjab?

definite-article

This one is closer.

The answers, not the question.

MetaEd

1

Q: How did "fuck" become taboo?

I recognize that this is similar to Etymology of the term "curse words" and "swear words" and What makes a word offensive? but it's not exactly the same, as the former question is asking about the origin of the term "curse words", not the origin of the curse words themselves a...

etymology usage offensive-language

KitFox

12:48

7

Q: Definite article with proper nouns, titles followed by a common noun

Over time I developed this rule where if a title or a proper name is followed by a common noun that represents the class of the entity I am referring to, then I use the definite article. In Example 1, the title of a publication in the first sentence is followed by the noun "whitepaper", thus the ...

grammaticality proper-nouns indefinite-article

MetaEd

Are we still editing headlines like this?

KitFox

@Reg, what about that one ^?

RegDwight АΑA

Just add it to the Related list. Won't hurt.

@MetaEd I remember answering that.

user19161

@skullpatrol Really? Besides Matt, who else?

RegDwight АΑA

13

Q: How long has the f-word been in use as an abusive term?

When was the f-word 'invented'? Who invented it? Has it always had the derogatory meaning that it does today. Is it a recent invention?

etymology slang

tchrist

12:51

Reg, how come you show virtually no sign of not being a native speaker? I think I've only ever spotted one tell from you ever, and I make more than that. Did you live in an English-speaking country for many years when you were young?

RegDwight АΑA

7

Q: What makes a word offensive?

Whilst I was sat on the bus yesterday, I overheard a group of teenagers discussing various things. As per the usual social requirement at that age, every 5th word was an expletive. Not exactly the best ambiance for my journey home, but it got me thinking. What specifically about the words "fuck"...

etymology pronunciation history offensive-language

tchrist

Dupey?

user19161

@tchrist What tell is that? I spotted none.

tchrist

He swapped a preposition once. I forget which it was.

user19161

Well, prepositions can go in several places, perhaps.

tchrist

12:52

No, I mean used "in" for "at", or some such.

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist arguably my answer to the older question makes it gen-ref, but look at the accepted answer on the current one. It just sucks, sorry.

Spare Oom

@RegDwightАΑA Are the mods allowed to ignore anyone? That wouldn't be helpful. So, if @simchona ignores a troll now, if she becomes a mod, she'd eventually have to start paying attention to deal with problem behavior.

tchrist

Sorry? For what?

confuses himself

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist sorry in case the author of that answer reads that.

tchrist

Ah, ok.

KitFox

12:54

@tchrist Reg is extremely talented with languages.

tchrist

It's still hard to develop a tone that comes off native speakery.

Easier in writing than speech, perhaps. Or harder, depending.

RegDwight АΑA

Huh I missed that.

tchrist

Yeah right.

KitFox

I can only think of one time when I noticed he wasn't a native speaker.

RegDwight АΑA

@KitFox no, I'm just extremely bored. It's a hobby. I could be talented with musical instruments instead, or bikes.

tchrist

12:56

Proving that just as a double negative means a positive, so too does a double positive mean a negative.

RegDwight АΑA

@KitFox don't make me prove you wrong, because I will.

KitFox

Just that once.

RegDwight АΑA

Mar 1 at 23:11, by KitFox

I expect you to know it in English. I feel very weird that you made a mistake just now.

Mar 1 at 23:11, by KitFox

brain hurts

KitFox

@RegDwightАΑA It may be a hobby, but it is one you have exceptional skill for.

RegDwight АΑA

That would be number one.

KitFox

12:57

That's the one I am thinking of, yes.

RegDwight АΑA

Then, that one time in bandcamp, I tried to explain something about sewing or turning clothes inside out, or whatever you call it, I still don't know and neither do I really care.

KitFox

That was a lack of knowing it in any language.

You were turning a drawstring.

RegDwight АΑA

And then I will sometimes not know how to say something correctly so I will just masquerade it with them's and lolspeak. Look out for those.

tchrist

Sewing is the same thing as turning clothes inside out?

Turning a drawstring?

RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist It can be to you, if you try.

KitFox

12:59

See? Not even tchrist knows.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…