English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

KitFox

00:40

Ta DA!

Cerberus

Welcome!

Welcome to English.Stackexchange.com.

You can do anything, anything at all.

KitFox

What type of food would you expect to have at a place called "Allen's Bistro"?

I've staffed it with a maitre d', so it would seem rather high-class.

And therefore, naturally, out of my class.

Cerberus

00:56

Nonsense.

Is it a good restaurant, or just a pompous one?

Hey, do you know CSS?

KitFox

A little.

@Matt knows more than I.

@Cerberus It is a good one. Not pompous.

Maybe I should change the name though.

Cerberus

Is there a way to apply something (display: hide) to a number of siblings that come after a certain specific sibling but before another specific sibling?

KitFox

@Vitaly I am pinging you. Are you sleeping? Do you sleep? I need some help with something.

Cerberus

@KitFox I don't know, bistro doesn't sound terribly fancy in Dutch.

KitFox

It's not really fancy, but because might seem that way because it's "European."

In the US, I mean.

Cerberus

01:01

Say I have several siblings in a vertical list: Stupid, Slave1, Slave2, Slave3, ... , Silly, Normal1, Normal2, ...

KitFox

@Cerberus Um. You can use .next but that only works for the immediately next sibling.

There might be a way to specify more broadly, but I don't know it.

Cerberus

@KitFox Oh, OK. I guess anything French sound slightly fancy too here.

@KitFox Hmm OK...

Matt is either tight asleep or rolling over in frustration.

But not here.

Might @Vitaly have an idea?

1 min ago, by Cerberus

Say I have several siblings in a vertical list: Stupid, Slave1, Slave2, Slave3, ... , Silly, Normal1, Normal2, ...

I would like to hide all the slaves.

KitFox

So everything between stupid and silly?

Cerberus

And I wouldn't mind hiding Stupid and Silly too, but those are very thin anyway.

@KitFox Yup.

I am trying to hide the "top offers" on Ebay, or whatever those are called in English.

KitFox

v3.thewatchmakerproject.com/journal/329/…

That might help you, I suppose.

You'd just have to use some recursion...

Well, you could probably just do a loop. I can't really think it through right now.

Cerberus

01:06

I'm afraid that is way over my head. I don't know Javascript or HTML.

But thanks for looking.

KitFox

Um.

Oh, right. You asked for CSS.

Duh. Sorry.

Cerberus

Not that I know CSS, but I was hoping there was something simple I could copy-paste.

KitFox

I was thinking in the wrong way. Let me try again.

Cerberus

I am able to hide elements with the help of Firefox's element selector and Userstyles.

If it can be done with a userscipt, that would be usable too—but I was thinking that would be more complicated.

And userstyles seem snappier.

KitFox

You would use something like stupid + slave1 { display:none; }

So all the slave1s that follow a stupid would be hidden.

Or something like that.

My knowledge of selector syntax is pretty weak.

Well, my knowledge of CSS is pretty weak.

Cerberus

01:10

Hmm but would that only hide Slave1?

Vitaly

Uh. It would help if Cerberus showed us the actual HTML code.

KitFox

Hello, @Vitaly.

Vitaly

Hi.

KitFox

How would you react to "A herd of cattle feeds fewer people than a pasture-sized garden of vegetables."?

Cerberus

Journeyman Geek

01:11

>_>

Cerberus

I would like to hide the "li" guys between the two dividers.

KitFox

<_<

Journeyman Geek

@KitFox: while its probably entirely true...

Cerberus

But not the ones after the second divider.

@Vitaly Hello!

Vitaly

@KitFox Hmm. My visual cortex would process those squiggly black things, send the results to my frontal lobe and transform that line of squiggly black things into a meaningful representation. Why?

Journeyman Geek

01:12

probably won't stop most people ;p

and heck i'm a vegitarian ;p

Cerberus

ebay.nl/sch/…

KitFox

I wasn't asking you though @Journeyman.

I want to know how Vitaly would respond.

Cerberus

^ An example of an Ebay page, where the first two results are bad.

KitFox

@Vitaly You don't have to be clever.

I just want to know what your response would be.

Vitaly

But that would be my response!

Cerberus

01:14

Haha.

KitFox

folds arms and looks stern

Journeyman Geek

lol ahh

Cerberus

I knew this was how it was going to be.

KitFox

So @Cerb, can you just hide the li class?

Cerberus

@KitFox But I need the good li's that come after the second divider?

KitFox

01:16

Hide the lis in divs with the g-b class?

Cerberus

I can only identify the bad guys either by their position (with these dividers), or by some deeply-buried children.

@KitFox What is this exactly?

stupid face

KitFox

Oh wait. That div doesn't enclose those lis does it?

Cerberus

Nope.

All siblings.

6 mins ago, by Cerberus

(For easy viewing.)

KitFox

shrugs

Cerberus

2 mins ago, by Cerberus

I can only identify the bad guys either by their position (with these dividers), or by some deeply-buried children.

KitFox

01:19

cajoles @Vitaly

Cerberus

It's OK if it doesn't work.

Vitaly

Are there always only two such results per page?

(Pure CSS doesn't have anything like a between selector, to my knowledge.)

KitFox

sulks

Cerberus

@Vitaly I don't think so.

Vitaly

Well, then your best bet is JS.

I'm not seeing anything that might differentiate those tables from the rest of them.

Cerberus

01:28

Hmm I was afraid of that.

It turns out that sometimes one of the bad guys actually comes after the divider too...this is hopeless.

Although they could probably be filtered out with Javascript, because they have some buried child.

Cerberus

01:42

Okay, I give up.

I found some bad entries that were indistinguishable from good ones.

Stupid Ebay.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus jquery has a selector that lets you find an element that has children who match some other selector

You could at least filter out the known bad ones

There is a way to inject jquery in a greasemonkey script

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh that is good. But the problem is that I'd rather have several bad ones than just one.

Then at least I will be aware that something is amiss.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus ah. ok. And the "bad" ones are truly indistinguishable? What is your criteria for "bad"

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 They are only distinguishable in that Ebay doesn't sort them properly, apparently.

These are sorted highest price first.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

ok but aside from being in the wrong order what is wrong with those top two results?

Cerberus

01:49

I am looking for the most expensive item, or the cheapest one, or any of the other sorting orders, and I see items at the top of the list that do not meet my criteria. They are clutter.

I can't quickly see the highest and lowest prices for things, or any of the other things I might want to do on Ebay.

I am forced to look at the prices "by hand" to make sure I am looking at relevant results and not semi-ads.

Ebay's category system is perhaps the worst I have ever seen. Completely unworkable and not just inconsistent, but plain contradictory.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yeah I'm not a fan of ebay

Cerberus

No, I take that back: it's not just the categorization, but basically everything.

It is impossible to find all hits for, say, the Galaxy Nexus.

When I click on the category "mobile phones", it finds just a handful.

So I am forced to dig through hundreds of pages of cases, adaptors, and various German names for screen protectors.

Okay, I give up on Ebay.

I have made a user style for Dictionary.com, by the way, to filter out the useless clutter.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

See, this is another reason why the phone market here hasn't improved much. There isn't sufficient disruption from online vendors.

Actually I think most people don't mind a contract that includes a free phone because it's not like the service is available any cheaper.

Cerberus

02:06

Yeah that's part of the issue; but don't forget how short-sighted people are: many people still get a plan-with-phone, here even though it is more expensive than, say, being in the red for a year to buy the phone yourself and getting a cheap plan.

It is a kind of hire-purchase, which is always much more expensive than outright purchase.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus But what I'm saying is that here it isn't more expensive, because there is no other option. The cell companies don't offer a cheaper off-contract-but-you-buy-your-own-phone rate

whoops, I'm wrong!

They have started offering discounts for people who switch and bring their own phone

up to 10% off

That is not much savings at all

Cerberus

Yeah.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

10% over 3 years is what I got for free with my provider, where I don't have a contract but I do have a "tab"

It would need to be 15-20% to be competitive. Unless the phone hardware market were more competitive, in which case you could get a really cheap device and then save some dough

Cerberus

I was just saying that many people will probably still take the plan-with-phone even if your system changes substantially.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, it is easier.

Cerberus

02:12

Is it?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I mean, a LOT easier. Given that so many phones just don't work on competing networks around here.

Cerberus

That is another problem.

But there are only two options, aren't there? CDMA or GSM.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

so if you want the latest phone, or if you want a phone that works on your chosen network, or if you want both, you need to know where to find such a phone for the price that saves you money, or else you just pay a bit extra and get it new and guaranteed from the provider

there are 3 options now, I forget what the 3rd is called.

or more than 3

the difference is in the data part of the service

So, like, my phone is GSM, but it's data bands are UTMS or something... I forget what it's called. Anyway, it won't work on the other GSM network here.

Most phones don't have enough radio coverage to work on all the networks. I hear the GN does though.

Cerberus

Is that really true?

I thought a regular 3G-capable GSM phone had all the required bandwidths...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yeah, it's pretty true

my phone works on Wind, Mobilicity, T-Mobile, and a few other networks. that's it.

Cerberus

02:18

This is the Galaxy S2.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Doesn't work on Rogers, Bell, Telus, Virgin, Fido, Chatr,, some others

Cerberus

What bandwidth should it have for Rogers?

Or a GSM provider in that list.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus honestly i'm not sure.

Cerberus

Your government should break open the market and enforce standards.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Pfft, as if.

Cerberus

02:20

But are you sure about these bandwidths?

I would like to know which bandwidth you need for, say, Rogers.

Can I look that up somewhere?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I am sure that there are at least 3 variants of the Nexus S, and mine doesn't work on Rogers or Bell

and the Bell one wont' work on Rogers and vice versa

(Bell is CDMA)

Cerberus

But perhaps the international version works on all GSM networks?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

and my friend from Korea brought a GS2 here and it didn't work on ANY networks here

Cerberus

Hmm.

Did he fiddle with the APNs or whatever they are called?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No, I doubt it. The "International" version is probably the same as the rogers one.

@Cerberus The phone simply does not have the hardware required.

Rogers Wireless

Rogers Wireless is a wireless telecommunications provider offering mobile phone and data services throughout Canada using Global System for Mobile Communications (GSM) and Universal Mobile Telecommunications System (UMTS) technology. It is a wholly owned subsidiary of Rogers Communications. As of Q3 2011, Rogers is Canada's largest cellphone provider with a subscriber base of over 9.2 million. This number includes 2 million Fido Solutions subscribers, representing over 21% of Rogers' mobile services subscribers. In urban regions, Rogers' Chatr brand offers only prepaid service, but it ...

But it's beside the point, even if the only problem were CDMA vs GSM, we'd still have to match handsets to networks because the two biggest companies are incompatible.

Cerberus

02:24

> We mainly use 850Mhz for our 3G voice and data (UMTS/HSDPA) and 1900Mhz for 2G voice and data (GSM/GPRS/EDGE).

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

and ironically it's the CDMA companies that are offering "bring your own device"

Cerberus

This is Rogers ^.

So that SII I picked there would work.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Great. But not all GS2s out there will work on Rogers.

i.e. not the ones from Korea, and not the Bell one.

The Bell one is the same as the US one that's for the CDMA company in the US

Cerberus

But someone could make an easy site where people could fill in their phone and see what networks they can use it on.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I tried to find such a site and can't.

Cerberus

02:26

You could build it in a day...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

rofl

Cerberus

And then you could rake in advertising money.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Do you have any idea how many cell phone models there are?

Even if we restrict it to smartphones

Cerberus

Someone could write an application that automatically tests the bandwidths on your phone v. a network database.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Even if we restrict it to Android and iPhone

Cerberus

02:27

People can be instructed how to look up what bandwidths their phones support.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Perhaps. I don't know if the phone can report its capabilities like that or if the choice of SIM card will restrict what the phone thinks it can do.

Cerberus

That can be found out.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I'm a developer with a background in computer engineering and I have a hard time figuring out if a random phone will or won't work on a random network.

Cerberus

Yes, it's odd.

I'm looking at my phones and trying to find out where I can see what bandwidths they support, on the device.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Even when I think I have the right phone identified, the right variant of a phone, and can look up its specs, I am not sure how to interpret what the specs say compared to what the limited information I can find about what frequencies carriers use.

Cerberus

02:31

Can't find it on my phone.

But surely someone could write an application to get the device ID number or something that identifies the exact variant.

And if you take only the 10 most popular phones of the past two years, you will be able to help millions of people.

And another thing. People can just buy a cheap pre-paid card from a certain provider that they would to migrate to in order to see whether it works.

I did that too, to test the network and speed of a certain new provider.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus people don't really do cheap pre-paid cards around here

pretty much the whole market is 3-year contracts with free phones

Spare Oom

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Where is that?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@SpareOom Canada

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 No such cards exist at all?

Hello oompje.

Spare Oom

Ah. I've use the no plan, pay as you go system.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:36

@Cerberus It exists. It's just not commonly used.

Spare Oom

oy, Cerb.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The idea is that you don't actually use it: you just buy one to test.

"Oom" is Dutch for "uncle".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus to test a phone?

Cerberus

Yes, to test whether your phone works on a certain carrier's network.

Unless they have no such cards that support data usage?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus honestly I have no idea. I know Wind does pre-paid data, but their network is really really incompatible with everyone else.

Cerberus

02:39

Instead, you could go to a carrier's physical shop and ask the assistant to test whether your phone works on their network.

Spare Oom

@Cerberus So, you're adopting me as an uncle?

Cerberus

He will surely have a SIM card that he can pop in.

@SpareOom You did it yourself.

Spare Oom

Ha, ok, but I wasn't speaking in Dutch. :D

What phone problems are we having? Can I get in on the griping? I just think my phone may be too antiquated to have any griping rights.

Cerberus

We were discussing how people in Canada could find out on which carriers' networks their phones would work.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I actually brought my phone into a Bell store and said "I got this phone from Wind, will it work on your network?" and they shifted awkwardly, looked at each other and said "yeah, yeah, sure it will"

Um, no. it won't.

I already knew that.

I guess I shouldn't have been surprised when I went back to the same Bell store to buy a phone (for software dev) and they wouldn't sell me one unless I bought a phone number to go with it.

Cerberus

02:44

Hah.

Pathetic.

> If you purchased your phone from an unauthorized retailer, please note that the device may not function when activated. Purchasing from an unauthorized source on the "grey market" is not recommended as its origin is unknown and it may not work on our network.

Spare Oom

Why aren't they all able to work on any and all networks?

Cerberus

"Unauthorized", "grey market".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus hahaha, yeah

Cerberus

This is oligopolyspeak.

They would like to criminalize you if they could.

> If you purchased your phone from an unauthorized retailer, please note that the device may not function when activated. Purchasing from an unauthorized source on the "grey market" is not recommended as its origin is unknown and it may not work on our network. If a handset purchased on the grey market was reported stolen from a Rogers or Fido store, authorized retailer/dealer or UPS, it will not work and cannot be activated.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@SpareOom the networks are not compatible, they use different technology, and most phones don't support all the protocols and frequencies

Cerberus

02:46

This is the full quotation: they try to link the "grey market" to crime in a not-so-subtle-but-thinking-they-know-psychology way.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, it's true though that stolen phones can be flagged and bricked. To a degree... not yet to the degree that cell-phone theft is a pointless exercise.

Cerberus

I am OK with that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So the Wind network doesn't use UTMS. It uses AWS.

So your GS2 you found wouldn't work on it.

Cerberus

But it is completely different from using a phone you already had, and they try to link the two together, manipulate you.

AWS??

What the hell is that?

Geepers.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus eh, not really. Because any phone you had probably came from them anyway.

@Cerberus Some other network type. Wind is AWS/1700 Mhz

Spare Oom

02:49

@simchona Are you in an area affected by the weekend storm in the US?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It could be any phone that supports 1900/850 GSM.

But the Rogers website is making me sick.

I can't look at it for another second.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus But in Canada any phones sold here that work in those frequencies were probably originally sold by Rogers. The other carriers aren't GSM

So I can't quite tell, but there are at least 4 variants of the Nexus S, maybe 5: gsmarena.com/results.php3?sQuickSearch=yes&sName=nexus+s

simchona

@SpareOom The airports shut down, but I don't know of any major damage

Spare Oom

@simchona What area is that, if I may ask? I'm near D.C. myself.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Again, there is Ebay and many other possibilities.

You could be an expat.

Etc. etc., make up your own scenario.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

02:58

@Cerberus Sure. If you trust yourself to be able to figure out if a random phone out there in the world-wild-web is A) correctly identified and B) unlocked and C) compatible with your chosen carrier

simchona

@SpareOom I'm currently near Chicago

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I was talking about how Rogers seems to rule out that you could have a non-stolen phone that work son their network.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I mean, yes, there are lots of scenarios that involve bringing a phone to a carrier. However, the majority of the market is new phones, or people selling phones as carrier-specific, i.e. "This is a Rogers phone" and the buyer buys it for Rogers.

@Cerberus No, they clearly don't rule it out. They just try to scare you about buying phones of unknown provenance.

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