English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

KitFox

17:00

And then sneak out?

Or maybe you suspect that your littlest has a sinus infection, so you've got to take him to the doctor?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Shiina Ringo — La Salle de Bain

KitFox

Which is fine because then he turns out to be OK anyway?

Cerberus

@Vitaly I'd have to read the whole book to comment on this, but at first glance (from the first page of the introduction and the summary below), it might be an interesting read. I saw a few terms that I am not familiar with, but I hope he will explain them.

> MIT Press, Sep 1, 2004 - Philosophy - 699 pages

According to Thomas Metzinger, no such things as selves exist in the world: nobody ever had or was a self. All that exists are phenomenal selves, as they appear in conscious experience. The phenomenal self, however, is not a thing but an ongoing process; it is the content of a "transparent self-model." In Being No One, Metzinger, a German philosopher, draws strongly on neuroscientific research to present a representationalist and functional analysis of what a consciously experienced first-person perspective actually is. Building a bridge be…

Vitaly

sigh

Cerberus

What is your problem with it exactly? I generally share your criticism of philosophers that they tend to make up too many new words.

But then many other scientists do so too.

And many good philosopher do their best not to.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

17:06

Good philosophers are the only true Scotsmen.

Vitaly

My problem is that I am not learning anything new except those made up words. And even then, I am not recognizing anything valuable that you couldn't look up in a neuroscience textbook explained in a much better and consistent way.

Cerberus

Have you read the book?

KitFox

ducks and giggles

Vitaly

@Cerberus The first 100 pages so far.

Cerberus

Perhaps it is meant for people who know less about the subject than you do.

Maybe read the conclusion?

And look up any terms in the conclusion that you don't understand?

Vitaly

17:09

@Cerberus Yeah, and who know representatum and explanans instead?..

Cerberus

I usually only read the conclusion when I'm not sure I want to read the entire book/article.

@Vitaly What are you trying to say?

Vitaly

But no, it's presented as original philosophical research.

KitFox

An original philosophical theory.

Cerberus

Maybe it is not so original, then.

Vitaly

@KitFox Thanks.

KitFox

17:10

It's a translation of neuroscience into philosophy, maybe?

Cerberus

The general view that consciousness can be reduced is nothing new, of course.

KitFox

So people like Cerb can understand it?

Vitaly

Hahaha.

KitFox

blushes I was being serious though.

Or maybe I wasn't.

Now I can't tell.

Cerberus

I rarely see a neuroscientific theory that brings very surprising facts to the surface. Most of the more general conclusions have been known to man for ages.

KitFox

17:13

Man? Really? You sure you want to go there?

Cerberus

It's usually more about the details. But perhaps I missed some stuff.

KitFox

Did I mention that I am feeling very aggressive recently?

Cerberus

You don't say.

Is it the testosterone?

KitFox

feral grin

Cerberus

@Vit: At first glance, this looks like a controversial, and therefore interesting, statement.

KitFox

17:16

@Cerberus It's not testosterone, but a progesterone with high androgenicity (in this latest batch).

Cerberus

As long as it does the job!

KitFox

I am rather enjoying it, but I am not used to it.

Cerberus

Bite on a stick.

KitFox

chuckles

Vitaly

@Cerberus really???

Cerberus

17:19

Yes.

Even this "transition" triggers various questions.

Vitaly

@Cerberus there's “controversy” about evolution vs creationism too. interesting much?

Cerberus

I see you are not interested in a serious discussion.

Fine.

Matt Эллен

Wrong anthem at medal ceremony

KitFox

Well, that's awkward.

Matt Эллен

Quite :D

Especially since it's a parody of the real anthem

KitFox

17:24

So SQL people, I need help thinking again.

Cerberus

Haha great.

Kuwait sucks.

Vitaly

@Cerberus OK, here's the deal, you keep posting excerpts from the book here and your comments on them while reading it, you are the one who claimed it could be an interesting read after all, so you have a motive to do this.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus why's that?

oh, because they're not paying attention :D

Cerberus

@Vitaly I said could, and I am not as interested in this subject as you are. I am not going to read it.

Matt Эллен

I can relate

@KitFox 10 4 good buddy, go ahead

Cerberus

17:26

@MattЭллен Yes, I mean, it is like high-school kids handing in a copy of a Wiki article.

KitFox

@MattЭллен I need to compare a count of interventions and a count of assessments by student...

Matt Эллен

do you have the two counts already?

KitFox

I'll have to include all Interventions and left join it.

Matt Эллен

are you just trying to join two queries together?

KitFox

Two grouped queries, but I am getting confused somewhere.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

17:29

@kit are the assessments somehow related to the interventions?

KitFox

Not really, hence the confusion.

Vitaly

@Cerberus Wrong assumption again. I am not interested in this subject either. I am interested why that gets positive reviews on Amazon and from Peter Watts, who is supposedly a biologist. I would have thought that someone who was a biologist wouldn't be as likely to credit something for its perceived status (that comes from convoluted sentences with made-up words).

Cerberus

And what is it to me?

Vitaly

@Cerberus Just correcting your wrong assumption.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

BC it sounds to me like `select studentid, count() from assessments group by studentid natural right outer join select studentid, count() from interventions group by studentid

KitFox

17:33

I thought I had done that. Let me check again.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Of course I am missing some parens or something... sorry I'm on mobile

Cerberus

@Vitaly Fine, so I told you it could be interesting to some people. It doesn't look like crap at first glance, but I'd have to read it to form an actual opinion, which I am not going to do. What did you think of Pinker's book, by the way?

I read most of it, and I was not very impressed. A bit overrated.

Vitaly

I don't remember reading any Pinker's books.

Cerberus

The only new thing I read in it was that Sapir-Whorf is now rejected now only by me, but also by most linguists. It always seemed pseudo-science to me.

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It's OK. I think that's got it. I was just forgetting to über select.

Cerberus

17:36

Oh.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@cerb some new research was recently released that suggests that there is a link between language and financial behaviour.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Just like the link between Dennis and dentists?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Which, if it stands up to scrutiny, seems to support sapie-wharf

Cerberus

Have you also read the recent article about how most psychological research is wrong?

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 stupid people have a smaller vocabulary, and also invest unwisely?

Cerberus

17:39

It conforms what I have long suspected.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus pha! lies

unless it's social psychology

Cerberus

80 % of psychological research turns out not to work at all when tested outside the lab. Or something.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No, it's related to whether or not your language has a future tense

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Yes, social was one of the worst offenders; organizational did much better.

I forgot the exact stats.

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 and English doesn't, hence the banking crisis

Cerberus

17:40

@MattЭллен What is your exact subfield again?

KitFox

Because most psychology studies are conducted on undergraduates.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Language log has been covering this

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh, please. extremely sceptical look

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus oh, I mostly studied eyes and brains and movement

Cerberus

Now, see, that is much better!

Matt Эллен

17:41

@KitFox too right

if only we could find a wider base

Cerberus

You're actually studying things that can be empirically verified, I imagine.

KitFox

@MattЭллен It's been a criticism for a long time.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Don't give me those skeptical looks. I'm just telling you what I read.

Vitaly

that's why most psychology studies should be conducted on chimps!

KitFox

Undergraduate students are an extremely biased sample.

Vitaly

17:41

that would make a realistic description of human psychology

Cerberus

Oh, and gender stuff was also among the word offenders among psychological experiments.

KitFox

Hey! Don't knock my prior research!

Cerberus

Sorry.

I'm not saying it's all bad.

KitFox

Not you. Him.

Cerberus

Ah.

Matt Эллен

17:42

@MrShinyandNew安宇 link please! I'm interested to read about it

KitFox

points @Vitaly

Cerberus

You mean ugly face.

Vitaly

No. You. And him.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 other two heads give additional sceptical looks

claps hands Looks like this is pseudo-science-busting day!

KitFox

There is plenty to be learned from sticking electrodes in monkey brains.

Cerberus

17:43

Like how to kill a monkey?

Vitaly

@KitFox Well, duh, that's what I am saying.

KitFox

@Cerberus Of course, because you are sampling frat boys and new feminists.

@Cerberus I have done that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3792

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 thanks!

Cerberus

@KitFox Yeah, that too. But I don't think that's the only problem.

@KitFox Aww really?

KitFox

17:45

@Cerberus Well, it is the inevitable outcome of such experiments.

Cerberus

> I find a strong and robust negative correlation between the obligatory marking of FTR in the language a family speaks, and a whole host of forward-looking behaviors, like saving, exercising, and refraining from smoking.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And why isn't everyone here already subscribed to language log!!?!?

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Sorry. But only in an obligatory marking-your-incredulity sort of way.

Cerberus

If this result still stands fifty years from now, I will eat my hat.

And do anything you desire.

Including vulgar acts.

No, I will actually do it.

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 because I spend all my time here. subscribing to LL would just be another blog i don't read

Cerberus

17:46

Unless my dentures prohibit my chewing on the felt.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

oh, please. everyone knows dogs don't live for fifty years!

Cerberus

I am not subscribed to any blog.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Watch me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But it's Language Log! It's full of interesting things.

Cerberus

Sure.

Matt Эллен

so's the whole internet.

but I am here 90% of the time

Cerberus

17:48

I am ambivalent towards LL.

Vitaly

It's full of Chinese billboards, yeah.

Cerberus

What?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I happen to like the Chinese billboard posts, because I'm studying Chinese.

KitFox

Hahaha. I love this place.

Matt Эллен

> it can often be difficult to tell the difference between strong correlations produced by causal relationships, and correlations which arise through non-causal factors.

see, he's got it wrong already. correlation proves causation. everyone knows that

KitFox

17:50

No, no, no.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus I will hunt you down in exactly 50 years from now, carrying a hat with me in case you forget yours.

KitFox

Causation ~~proves~~ improves correlation.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен growls

@RegDwightѬſ道 Excellent!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

For the record: I have no idea if the author is wrong or right or something else, in fact I am still reading that post.

Cerberus

Except that you are older, so you may be hunting mouse spirits in the eternal night by then.

Matt Эллен

17:50

@Cerberus hehehe, is it something I said :Þ

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I just wanted to point out that nobody, nobody gets not to eat their hat as promised. In this chat.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен unggg doesn't know how to respond

@RegDwightѬſ道 I look forward to seeing your ghost.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Matt you got the wording wrong. It was "There is always a root cause that causes the correlation thus correlation implies causation." (even if the root cause is "the big bang")

No not eating your hat in this chat.

Cerberus

Does "exact sciences" mean anything in English?

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus of course not. only "anything" means anything

Cerberus

17:53

Sometimes I wish the sciences and the humanities would pick up a few well-known lessons from each other.

KitFox

Like the humanities should stop just making stuff up in an effort to make itself sound important?

3

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Like what?

Cerberus

The dialogue between reduction and fuzziness is very important if you want to really look at things from all possible perspectives.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Does that sentence even mean anything?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus only in the phrase "well, it's not an exact science"

Cerberus

17:56

Scientists often cannot see beyond the building blocks and the metaphors they use, they disregard context. Humanities fail to see how important it is to always apply reduction(ism) to test their ideas. They sometimes come up with weak or nonsensical theories failing that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

First of all, how could you possibly look at anything from all possible perspectives? Surely you'd run out of time after, say, thirteen trillion two hundered and five perspectives.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I might need a lot more words to explain exactly what I mean.

@MattЭллен Ah, right, yes.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus Here, have three.

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 And most perspectives are useless.

Or close to redundant.

Cerberus

I guess the word isn't really necessary in English. In Dutch, wetenschap includes both science and humanities.

KitFox

17:57

Wetting schnapps? Now we're talking!

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 See, you're doing exactly what I meant. You disregard context. But at least you're doing it on purpose now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I think I have some peach schnapps upstairs...

Cerberus

@KitFox You frat girl.

Wait, is that sor girl?

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hey, you can use that in Sex on the Beach.

Sex on the Beach

__NOTOC__ Sex on the Beach is a cocktail that has many variations. General types There are two general types of the cocktail: *The first type is made from vodka, peach schnapps, orange juice, and cranberry juice. This is an International Bartenders Association Official Cocktail. *The second type is made from vodka, Chambord, Midori Melon Liqueur, pineapple juice, and cranberry juice. This type is listed in the Mr. Boston Official Bartender's Guide and is mixed by TGI Friday's. The ingredients are shaken together with ice in a shaker and are served in a highball glass. Sometimes the...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I don't have cranberry juice.

I have some other fruit juices that might serve. but they're supposed to be for my daughter's birthday party tomorrow.

KitFox

18:00

spittake

Oh. The juices.

rofl

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Am I disregarding context? Or trying to narrow down your statement? :p

KitFox

I wonder if I have any Capt Morgan's at home...

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The former. And I know it was a joke.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, I'm not sure what you mean by "Scientists often cannot see beyond the building blocks and the metaphors they use". Scientists are just people following a process.

Cerberus

I wish there were a site with people experienced both in humanities and science. Or at least appreciating the principles of both.

KitFox

18:03

That's sort of like asking for a scientist who is also a priest.

Cerberus

Look who doesn't qualify.

KitFox

mortified

Matt Эллен

hang on. this LL post says that English speakers should not be good at saving, and yet Britain has one of the biggest banking sectors in Europe, if not the biggest. I'm pretty sure it's run by WASPs too

KitFox

Banks are for spending. Duh.

Matt Эллен

oh. I guess I'm going it wrong

KitFox

18:04

Try this. draws diagram

Matt Эллен

thanks!

Robusto

Wait, I'm a scientist and a priest. Except I'm not ordained by any religion and I don't do science.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It's hard to explain. I need to think of a good example.

Robusto

@Cerberus I appreciate the principles of both.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Why should you be bad at saving?

@Robusto Excellent!

That's 1.

KitFox

18:06

You're not going to test that assertion?

Cerberus

Because "will" doesn't count as a future tense?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus maybe I'm misreading the ting

KitFox

Then I appreciate both as well.

Matt Эллен

> weak-FTR languages would lead to more savings

Cerberus

@KitFox There is etiquette to consider.

Matt Эллен

18:07

> English is considered a strong-FTR language

Robusto

See? I started a trend. Scientific humanists. Or humanistic scientists. Hooray!

Cerberus

@MattЭллен And FTR means future tense? sighs at unnecessary abbreviations

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus yeah, something like that

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus did you read the article?

Cerberus

Not yet.

KitFox

18:08

It looks like we've got about 20% crappy data in this system.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

anyway, I await an example of what scientists have to learn from humanities. As a scientist I must wait for evidence before I pass judgement on your claims. ;)

KitFox

Without having finished all the queries.

Cerberus

Look, more advanced theories in linguistics, which are widely accepted now, say that normally any language can express anything that speakers normally encounter. They just use different ways.

KitFox

I am glad my boss piped up and insisted that we start doing some data quality checks.

Robusto

@Cerberus Exactly. That's what John McWhorter says, too.

Cerberus

18:10

Who?

Robusto

John McWhorter

John Hamilton McWhorter V (1965– ) is an American linguist and political commentator. He is the author of a number of books on language and on race relations. During the period he was active as a professor of linguistics, his research specialty was how creole languages form. Early life McWhorter was born and raised in Philadelphia. He attended Friends Select School in Philadelphia, and after tenth grade was accepted to Simon's Rock College, where he earned an A.A. degree. Later, he attended Rutgers University and received a B.A. in French in 1985. He received a master's degree in Am...

KitFox

People shape language. People who aren't future thinking don't FTR?

Rather than the other way around?

@Robusto He's cute.

Cerberus

@Robusto Ah, good.

KitFox

I just missed him at Cornell. Bummer.

Vitaly

@KitFox Look, you can't do that. The humanities would pressure you into being politically correct.

KitFox

18:12

@Vitaly What? Where? Who?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus the way I see it, the point is not that they can express anything they encounter, but rather that they just don't.

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 Except they do. They may not have a "future tense" but they get to their meetings on time, and they plant and reap crops, etc.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Hear me out FFS.

Like those people who only have two colors in their language. Of course they can describe green and blue and orange with purple polka dots. But for the most part they just say black and white.

Of course I can come close to jussive in English. But people just don't.

And I will add that I do not subsribe to any theory and in fact am not familiar with them all. I haven't even finished reading that article yet.

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 Are you saying that English speakers never come close to the jussive mood in English, that they never express the same hortatory sense by any other linguistic mechanism?

Matt Эллен

FTR = future-time reference

Cerberus

18:16

@RegDwightѬſ道 Okay, sure. But what is your point exactly, i.e. what are you arguing against?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto: Consider the language for kin terms: in Chinese, you have specific terms for every possible relation vis-a-vis their gender and age and which side of the family they're on etc. English speakers CAN express that information. But they usually don't, and often don't think about it.

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Good example.

It's hard to remember them all, and actually a rather useful feature.

Robusto

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I also read that many Chinese speakers make mistakes when writing 他vs她 because they just say "ta" and don't mentally encode "he" or "she". And when they learn english they often mix up those pronouns.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus I am not arguing against anything. I am just pointing out that there must be a reason why lexical gaps exist at all. Saying that in the end they don't matter is begging the question.

KitFox

18:19

I wish we had a word for "father's father's homewrecking second wife," like the Chinese do.

3

Robusto

To be continued. I need to leave, but there are a couple of points I do want to make later. By then everyone will have moved on, I guess, so ...

KitFox

Well, you can bring it up again.

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 a language words spelled differently are pronounced the same? What kind of language would do that?

Robusto

Laterz.

Matt Эллен

c u

Robusto

18:21

One parting shot:

> "Decade after decade, no one has turned up anything showing that grammar marches with culture and thought in the way that the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis claimed."

From McWhorter.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Robusto That's what Pinker says, too, and everyone I have ever read.

I do not subscribe to Sapir-Whorf.

@MattЭллен English?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Right, that may be one of the few Whorfian examples that may make sense. Though we'd need actual proof to say that people really think differently about family relations.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 That's sounds much less convincing.

Vitaly

@Cerberus Have you read anything by Dennett? If you have, what?

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightѬſ道 aye, but the joke works better if I don't explicitly say it

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 Why must there be a reason? There can be reasons, but language is also to a large degree random.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

18:23

Feb 23 '11 at 15:14, by Kosmonaut

I like to tell myself that if you have to explain it, it means it was sophisticated.

Cerberus

@Robusto Yay! Later!

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightѬſ道 lol

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus if a language doesn't have a word for, say, "war" or "computer", certainly that's telling us something.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 And yet things like this future tense keep popping up.

@Vitaly I have, but I don't remember what.

Vitaly

@Cerberus was it philosophy of mind?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

18:24

Anyhow. Now that Rob's out I'll rush to buy groceries before the store shuts down.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 Not necessarily.

@Vitaly Probably.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I'm just trying to point out that just because the original Sapir-Whorf theory, which suggested that certain ideas are impossible in certain languages, is not believed to hold, doesn't mean that language can't shape thought at all.

Vitaly

@Cerberus so you were interested in reading Dennett's take on the philosophy of mind? you are no longer interested in the philosophy of mind now?

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 ah, so the weak version of the theory

which is generally held to be true, because it is impossible to prove wrong

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I am capable of thinking in three languages. My thoughts sure as hell differ depending on what language I am thinking in.

But errands. Laters.

Matt Эллен

18:27

c u

Vitaly

@RegDwightѬſ道 I agree.

Matt Эллен

don't hate on thin people

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Also, @Cerberus, even if, as you believe, language does not cause savings and vice versa, there might be an interesting link in some cultural phenomenon that coincides with that language.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 True. I don't remember what my was exactly, and I'm too lazy to scroll back, but I'm just saying that many naïve form-meaning connections in language don't work. And the connection between future tense and saving sounds extremely suspicious. What experience I have with similar theories says that they usually cannot bear further scrutiny.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus To be fair: it's my understanding that this paper merely points out the correlation.

So is it Sapir-Whorfian? Or is that just a convenient "possibility" thrown out there for marketing purposes?

Cerberus

18:33

@Vitaly I probably read some articles or chapers of Dennet's in a class about philosophy of mind, and probably some other class too. I found philosophy of mind interesting. I still do, though it is not my primary interest.

Vitaly

@Cerberus Oh, so in order to get you to read something about philosophy of mind, it should be studied in a formal class about philosophy of mind?

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 Thinking does not happen in a language, for the most part: only very few, superficial parts of your thinking involve language. I believe there is consensus about this, and frankly it is quite evident when you think about it.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus but think about it without language

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yeah OK, but that is what psychological articles always do: "I'm merely pointing out that more dentists are called Dennis". That is exactly the problem: correlation is rather meaningless if you can't explain the steps in between, the actual reason. I would almost not call it science at all.

Okay, that's not fair: it is a first, preliminary phase, upon which you can build an hypothesis, and then you test the hypothesis and such. But the correlation itself is not an hypothesis: it is nothing yet.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus are you talking about the thing from freakonomics?

where they analyzed people's career choices correlated to names?

Cerberus

18:39

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh, yes, the marketing purposes is an important thing: wild speculation usually gets more attention, and hence more H points for the researcher, and in the end more money for his projects. A major source of corruption in modern academia.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes.

KitFox

@Cerberus splutters

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Has that been debunked? Or are you just scoffing at the notion that people might be affected by the name they are given?

Cerberus

I talked about it with Vitaly earlier here, and he was inclined to believe it. I did not, of course, and later an article was published that completely refuted it, in exactly the way I had predicted.

Vitaly

> and he was inclined to believe it

Stop making stuff up.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So you're saying that the name a child is given can never affect their personality and/or choices? Not at all, not even a tiny bit?

Vitaly

18:41

Feb 11 at 3:59, by Vitaly

@Cerberus — I find it convincing at p < .05. XP

^ is not the same as saying “I believe it”.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Of course I'm not saying that; but the effect cannot be large enough to produce significant correlation as suggested in that paper.

@Vitaly OK, fair enough. But you did find it convincing.

Vitaly

And it's not the same as “I find it convincing” either.

The p-value part is significant.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Vitaly statistically significant?

Vitaly

Haha.

KitFox

@MattЭллен "You can't look at someone and tell how healthy they are. Weight and health are two separate things." Why is it that anorexics and fat people make this argument?

If you are obese, you are unhealthy.

If you are a skeleton, you are unhealthy.

Vitaly

18:45

@Cerberus And I have asked an honest question. I am actually wondering what exactly gets you to read something, since you earlier seemed to claim that it's not the status of philosophers in question.

KitFox

If you are in-between, maybe you is and maybe you isn't.

Cerberus

I predicted that, seeing as the connection made no sense and no real attempt at an hypothesis was made, it proved nothing; secondly, since common sense tells us that it is extremely unlikely that people would let their major life decisions be significantly influenced by such minor things, I would need a very strong theory with good evidence of the intermediate steps to believe it;

thirdly, lacking any such steps, it was most likely an artifact, because you can never filter out all the unknown factors that influence your results.

KitFox

My goodness. I am starry today.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox what about obese skeletons? What about pregnant women?

KitFox

@MattЭллен Pregnant women are not fat!

Necessarily. Some pregnant women are.

Matt Эллен

18:48

@KitFox but they have a different to average BMI

KitFox

I wasn't talking about BMI, anyway.

Matt Эллен

also, I was totally joking

KitFox

I just think it is a ridiculous statement.

It is pretty akin to "You can't tell my race by looking at me."

Well, no, but I can make some damn good guesses.

Cerberus

@Vitaly I am not fully aware of what makes me want to read something. I feel like it or not. Reading an entire book about a tough subject requires a bit of an effort. And there are so many interesting books to read about so many subjects!

Matt Эллен

@KitFox true

Cerberus

18:50

I sort of share your perspective that "we already know (self-)consciousness is a bunch of neurons, and it must necessarily be reductible(sp?) to biological processes"; that being part of the main point the book is trying to make, I am less inclined to read it, because I sort of "already know that".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, there are lots of women with BMI less than 18 who are not anorexic and not unhealthy.

KitFox

neutrons?

Cerberus

Oops.

Matt Эллен

yeah, neurons have loads of neutrons

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Or neutrionos, in Cerb's case

KitFox

18:51

@MrShinyandNew安宇 And also probably don't look skeletal and gross.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 brain hurts

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox depending on your definitions of "skeletal" and "gross" :)

Vitaly

@Cerberus Some review said that Metzinger's take on consciousness is better than Dennett's. Isn't that rewarding enough?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus that's the neutrons trying to get up momentum

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You say that like my definitions aren't the only ones that matter.

Cerberus

18:52

@Vitaly You already told me the book wasn't very interesting, so I trust your opinion, and I am less inclined to read it!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Vitaly Wait, are you trying to reduce Cerberus to some sort of pavlovian process?

Matt Эллен

skeletal

144 = gross

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Get up momentum? Like the spin of quarks?

Vitaly

@Cerberus But I am not a philosopher. You should actually take my opinion that something is not very interesting as evidence to the contrary, as a philosopher.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Holy crap... my wife's BMI is like 16

Matt Эллен

18:54

@Cerberus more like the neutrons are jealous of the protons because protons have spin

Vitaly

And anyway, reality check, neuroscientists to the rescue pl0xzz! @Kit:

> extremely unlikely that people would let their major life decisions be significantly influenced by such minor things

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 She's tiny and Asian right?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox yup

Vitaly

Do you also disagree with that? Priming?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

She also eats CONSTANTLY.

KitFox

18:54

@Vitaly Now that's a way to frame a question.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Like, we're just putting away the breakfast dishes and she's thinking about lunch.

Vitaly

@KitFox hehehe

Gigili

@KitFox Why Did you guess so? Asian

Cerberus

@Vitaly You little Sophist.

KitFox

I am not sure I want to jump into this discussion.

@Gigili Because I know it already.

Cerberus

18:56

@MattЭллен Wait, protons have spin?

KitFox

I don't think you can argue that name effects are based on priming.

Gigili

I don't get what's the relationship between being Asian and what Mr.S said.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Gigili Lots of Chinese women are small.

Vitaly

But I wasn't talking about priming specifically. I was priming you for thinking in that general direction.

Gigili

@MrShinyandNew安宇 That makes more sense. But not lots of Asians are small.

KitFox

18:58

I think most major life decisions are based on factors that bear little relation to the subject of the decision.

@Gigili Aren't Asians on average the smallest race?

Vitaly

Thanks. Just as I thought.

KitFox

Or am I being offensively stereotypical?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Gigili Do you mean "Asians" from "Asia"? Because in North America, "Asians" means "East Asians"

KitFox

Right, because you get in trouble if you say "oriental" instead.

Cerberus

In history, opinions tend to trend between "we can do whatever we want if we just make enough of an effort" and "we can't change anything anyway, because we have no control over our subconscious".

Gigili

18:59

@KitFox No, they are not. Why should they be?

Cerberus

We are now in a wave of the latter in science.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus yes indeed! it's how NMR works

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…