English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

His reading ABILITY is fine; his reading INTEREST is not as high. I believe that someone who's not interested in reading isn't going to improve their writing. I have no evidence to back this up; but it's not the same thing as correlation between reading ability and writing ability.

KitFox

12:14 PM

I was starting to feel like a geek.

Robusto

Well, we can't change that.

David Wallace

Boba Fett's Dad was played by a New Zealander.

Robusto

But we do know about Boba Fett.

Matt Эллен

►

KitFox

My son has known about mercenaries for a while. It's all part of my plan.

Matt Эллен

12:15 PM

that's how I learned

@DavidWallace That character is called Jango Fett, I think

KitFox

I wish I could remember which book I read that told the story of Han and Fett.

David Wallace

Yes, but I didn't know how to spell Jango. I thought it might be Django.

Matt Эллен

abuot Bobb Fett? Really? What is wrong with me?

aedia λ

Ooh the sun is finally making the fog clear up outside.

KitFox

Nice!

Matt Эллен

12:18 PM

You have fog too! Its was quite thick here

KitFox

Time to pop down to the dining car and get some coffee and a sticky bun!

David Wallace

How does your son know about mercenaries?

KitFox

The Enforcers, from The Spectacular Spider-Man series

David Wallace

Does he dream about Peter Parker too?

Matt Эллен

-3

A: Differences between dialects

That's a good question, Marco. It raises a point that is not often addressed, when foreigners learn English. That is, that there is not one form of English. Many foreigners naively assume that there is. Until it comes time to put it into practice. Not everyone from an English-speaking land, s...

KitFox

12:21 PM

@DavidWallace Probably.

aedia λ

Now that it is sunny I can see the things like "big bad phat" in the graffiti more clearly

Matt Эллен

I read this. All the way through.

I don't agree with it at all

apart from "There is no one form of English"

aedia λ

Ow my brain!

David Wallace

It's very anti-American.

Matt Эллен

Oh, well, I agree that Marco's question is good too.

aedia λ

12:25 PM

It's like how people use "nasal" to describe accents they don't like

KitFox

Oh shit. I couldn't make it all the way through. What horrible writing.

David Wallace

"If you learn American English, you will be instantly noticeable for having a harsh, whining accent". Wow!

Matt Эллен

Yeah, the anti-american stance threw me a bit.

aedia λ

Also how can someone's English be of a better quality?

KitFox

Are we really whiny sounding?

David Wallace

12:26 PM

"If you are speaking or writing to, Americans or other American English speakers, you should use their dialect, in order to be understood." And here I was, writing New Zealand English in the mistaken belief that Americans could understand me.

Matt Эллен

:D

KitFox

And what's with the random commas?

I really want to edit the answer.

Matt Эллен

Oh god, the commas

David Wallace

@KitFox Some Americans sound whinier than others. But the same would apply to any group of speakers from any country.

aedia λ

Better quality English be tastin good ery time he lick it?

Matt Эллен

12:28 PM

Janice from Friends sounds whiny

KitFox

I wonder what an American accent sounds like to a Brit.

David Wallace

or Fran Drescher in The Nanny.

KitFox

> you would also learn a very strong and foreign (non-English) accent.

What?

American English is a foreign accent?

David Wallace

@KitFox - to a non-American, a "southern" American accent is like a stronger version of a general American accent. So I imagine that what southern Americans sound like to you is probably similar to what you sound like to us.

KitFox

Oh God. That's awful.

makes note to teach sons posh British accent

David Wallace

12:31 PM

Usually, we understand you just fine, due to the influence of American TV and movies. The one sound that I (and probably other non-Americans) have difficulty with is your short O. For example, when you say "cop", it sounds to me like "cup". Usually, I can tell it's an O from the context, but not always.

Matt Эллен

I think it depends on how much variety of America accents a non-USAian has heard as to how they categorise accents

aedia λ

I have a wicked hard time separating my impressions of 'sounds like' from stereotypes I have of people who have the accents even though I know better

David Wallace

@MattЭллен Yeah, that's a fair comment,

KitFox

Pretty much all accents from the UK sound posh and sexy.

Apparently, we all sound retarded.

Matt Эллен

W0oohoo!

David Wallace

12:32 PM

@KitFox really?

KitFox

Yeah.

David Wallace

@KitFox - many people think I sound British!

aedia λ

thinks about Xena

KitFox

No way. Americans are too stupid to distinguish UK from NZ and South African accents.

Matt Эллен

Thinks about Hercules

KitFox

12:33 PM

thinks about sexy dream

Matt Эллен

@KitFox No way. I mean I have trouble telling between NZ and Australian, but SA is really different

KitFox

I agree.

David Wallace

Lucy Lawless is a New Zealander. I don't think she spoke like one in Xena though.

Matt Эллен

especially when they throw Africaans words in there

KitFox

Usually I can distinguish at least those regions, but lots of Americans just think "British."

I had an issue of Maxim with Lucy Lawless in it.

Matt Эллен

12:35 PM

@DavidWallace Really! I wouldn't have guessed. She sounded totally American to me

KitFox

I think I wore it out.

aedia λ

I recently re-heard Lucy Lawless's Wait Wait Don't Tell me interview and I can def hear her accent there though

KitFox

I think it is a "speaks English, doesn't sound American, is white, must be Brit" bias.

aedia λ

I recently re-heard Lucy Lawless's Wait Wait Don't Tell me interview and I can def hear her accent there though

Matt Эллен

@KitFox That's likely.

David Wallace

12:36 PM

New Zealand actors learn that to make it big, they have to be able to imitate American accents. Would you guess that Anna Paquin isn't American, from watching that silly vampire programme?

Matt Эллен

I would not

Vitaly

@Kit so suppose there's a 3-place relation between the brain (system), the book you are reading (the representandum) and the neural activity in your brain that represents the book (the representatum). supposedly, that 3-place relation can be broken down into 3 2-place relations: system ←→ representandum, system ←→ representatum, representandum ←→ representatum. so if you break the first relation, that's hallucination, what's it if you break the third one but let the first one be?

KitFox

Well, Aussies too. Mel Gibson.

aedia λ

I don't know who she is

Matt Эллен

aedia λ

12:37 PM

(Not a fan of vampires)

Matt Эллен

She's in X-Men too

KitFox

@Vitaly Let me think about it.

as Rogue

Commute. Later.

cya @Robusto

12:38 PM

@Vit It would be something like confabulation.

David Wallace

Sure, but in the Vampire thing, she just sounds so extreme. Putting on that lower-class Southern American accent. It just cracks me up.

It wouldn't amuse me if I didn't know that she's a New Zealander.

Vitaly

@KitFox but isn't confabulation similar to hallucination?

KitFox

@Vitaly Yes, similar.

So you have a faulty input, and you're calling that hallucination.

Vitaly

No, there's no input.

KitFox

And you want to know what you would call a faulty processed signal.

David Wallace

12:39 PM

But, @KitFox, there are so many diverse British accents; they can't ALL sound posh and sexy! Like, I don't think anyone would call a Liverpudlian accent posh. Sexy maybe, who knows?

Matt Эллен

@DavidWallace indeed

KitFox

@DavidWallace I don't know what that sounds like.

Vitaly

Hmm I see. Makes sense. Thanks.

KitFox

@Vitaly Let me read it again. There's too much activity right now.

aedia λ

Ohh rogue! I remember her.

Matt Эллен

12:41 PM

►

the lady is Liverpudlian

David Wallace

A well educated British person sounds posh and sexy, I'll agree. But Britain is replete with regional accents, most of which are just difficult to understand.

Vitaly

@KitFox oh, and which relation(s) do you think are broken in case of blindsight and anosognosia?

aedia λ

Okay, break time from the lil screen for a while. Laterz!

KitFox

@MattЭллен Well, maybe not exactly posh, but certainly sexier than redneck.

Matt Эллен

@aediaλ cya l8rs!

David Wallace

12:43 PM

Umm, in that interview, Cilla Black's accent doesn't sound all that typical of Liverpool to me. She's learnt a more generic accent, in my opinion.

I guess I'm thinking more soccer-hooligan.

KitFox

@Vitaly I'm not used to thinking about it this way, so let's talk it through.

Matt Эллен

Technically, The Beatles are Liverpudlian

David Wallace

True dat.

Matt Эллен

but Paul doesn't sound very Liverpudlian anymore

user19161

There is a word "lilliputian".

Matt Эллен

12:45 PM

From Gulliver's Travels

David Wallace

Paul has spent too much time in too many different countries.

KitFox

►

David Wallace

@WillHunting Liverpudlian means "from Liverpool".

user19161

@DavidWallace And "lilliputian" means extremely small.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox the accent slips around a lot

KitFox

12:47 PM

Hmm.

Vitaly

@KitFox oh, never mind. I was trying to see if Metzinger's 3-place relation made immediate sense to someone trained in neuroscience. Because his Being No One is so highly lauded in Amazon comments and by Peter Watts, while I am only seeing the usual philosophical drivel so far (I'm at page 50 on Google Books).

David Wallace

The speaker admits that she has spent lots of time in Bath and in Aussie.

She has quite a sexy voice though, but not posh.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox the caller here is scouse: youtube.com/watch?v=ITzkx-KaEsk&feature=related&t=1m15s

KitFox

@Vitaly Oh, OK. Good to know that it is drivel. I'd half a mind to read it.

user19161

I am not sure what a sexy voice means.

KitFox

12:48 PM

@MattЭллен Oh, I like it.

user19161

tries to imagine a sexy voice

Vitaly

@KitFox Well, there are 650 more pages. I could very well be not past the introductory drivel yet. (Oh, and by drivel here I mean something obvious that anyone should be able to come up with on their own but dresses in fancy terms like representandum or analysandum.)

David Wallace

@MattЭллен Great clip. I find myself having to concentrate quite hard to understand this.

KitFox

@Vitaly And anyway, I sort of understand breaking it up that way, but I'm not sure how you would figure breaking the first relation means "hallucination" so I can't derive the rest.

David Wallace

Is it fair to say that there is more variety among the accents of Britain than there is among the accents of North America; or is that just my non-American bias creeping in?

KitFox

12:51 PM

That's just bias.

We cover more ground, so we've got more accents.

Also, more people.

Matt Эллен

Yeah, they win by sheer numbers

David Wallace

OK, good to know. Not quite sure why more ground and more people implies more accents; I thought it was more a time thing.

Matt Эллен

and the influx of immigrants

KitFox

Larger territory and more people means more communities where accents evolve.

user19161

@MattЭллен Is the misspelling a typo, a joke or neither?

KitFox

12:53 PM

But then again, I am speaking with great authority on a topic about which I know nothing.

Matt Эллен

@WillHunting which shear should I use?

user19161

@MattЭллен sheer != shear

Matt Эллен

ah!

KitFox

I noticed that and it is hurting my brain.

Oh, right.

David Wallace

Yes, but 250 years ago, all Americans spoke pretty much the same as each other. The diversity is from 250 years of evolution. But you need to go back about 5 times as far to get to a point where all English people spoke similarly - and even then it wouldn't quite work. So I'd expect about 5x as much diversity among the accents of Britain.

user19161

12:53 PM

Also yesterday I misspelled "paparazzi" but I edited it in a minute.

KitFox

All I could think of was "shere" and I knew that was not right.

user19161

I initially thought it was "papparazzi".

KitFox

@Vitaly "representandum or analysandum"? Sounds dreary.

David Wallace

Hey, it's almost 2am here and I need to get some sleep. Nice talking to you all. Good night.

KitFox

Good night!

user19161

12:55 PM

@DavidWallace Good night!

Matt Эллен

night @DavidWallace

user19161

But I know it is spelled "Mississippi".

KitFox

@Vit because after looking at it, and looking at it, I think the situation breaking the third relation should be a hallucination.

Vitaly

@KitFox if you don't mind, what are your heuristics telling you upon a cursory look through this text anyway? i'm seriously disturbed because i can't see why someone like Peter Watts would praise this so much. is this me being stupid?

user19161

@Vitaly Well, maybe the watts were going through him then.

KitFox

12:58 PM

@Vitaly Well, I wasn't terribly impressed with Watts, but give me a few minutes to read...

> ...we need a better bridge between the humanities and cognitive neuroscience.

This makes me deeply suspicious.

Well, my initial reaction is that this person, probably very similarly to Watts, is a philosopher who wants to argue using "hard" scientific facts, but who is not a scientist and doesn't really understand the meaning of the biology he is using to make his case.

Vitaly

Watts is a biologist… If he hadn't been one, I wouldn't have ever tried to read something he recommended.

KitFox

Oh right. Marine biology dropout, right?

Vitaly

Hahaha.

KitFox

And I haven't read much of either one's work.

So I shouldn't be so judgy, except that that is what I do.

Also, I have an extreme consciousness-is-an-epiphenomenon bias.

Vitaly

@KitFox Google Scholar actually gives a few papers of his, Journal of Theoretical Biology included

KitFox

1:11 PM

snickers

"Theoretical Biology"

Vitaly

But then it's Elsevier. So probably meh.

KitFox

Sounds like the Journal of Irreproducible Results

Matt Эллен

Isn't Theoretical Biology chemistry?

Vitaly

@KitFox I dunno, I am actually partial to theoretical biology. My understanding is that theoretical biology is biology on ~~steroids~~ mathematics. Evolutionary game theory is theoretical biology in my book.

KitFox

Hmm.

Vitaly

1:13 PM

So is mathematical biophysics. And mathematical epidemiology.

KitFox

OK then. I like evolutionary game theory.

user19161

I like KFC.

Vitaly

> Metzinger … has been president of the German cognitive science society from 2005 to 2007

WTF.

KitFox

He probably founded it.

Matt Эллен

@WillHunting Kwantum Fermo dynamiCs?

2

user19161

1:16 PM

@MattЭллен That deserves a star but I don't do stars.

KitFox

Damn my not knowing German!

Matt Эллен

thanks!

Vitaly

> The German Society for Cognitive Science (GK) was founded in 1994

@KitFox No. :(

KitFox

Eh. Germans.

He was probably the student of one of the founder's friends then.

user19161

When I earned the SWR badge, nobody starred it or maybe I did not announce it. Now Cerb got 4 stars for it!

KitFox

1:19 PM

That's how it tends to work over there.

Robusto

3

Q: On what juristic basis are students corrected when making mistakes in an English class?

I've learned that there is no authoritative dictionary for English. I wonder on what juristic basis students are corrected when making mistakes in an English class. How can someone say that whatever the student did wrong is not considered correct English by other people. In German schools, stude...

dictionaries

Duden. The Dude. His Dudeness. Or El Duderino, if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

2

Matt Эллен

@WillHunting ah, but Cerb doesn't like SWR questions, so it's ironic, or soemthing

user19161

@MattЭллен OIC, there's more than meets the eye.

KitFox

Like the Transformers.

Matt Эллен

:D

Robusto

1:22 PM

@Will: You can't let inequalities in chat starring get to you. As far as I can tell, there is no justification for most of these stars. It's one more way ELU resembles middle school.

2

Matt Эллен

I've always pronounced iff like if with more f, or if and only if. Today is the first time I learned logisticians pronounce it i. f. f.

user19161

@MattЭллен How do you pronounce if with more f?

Robusto

Guess who?

Matt Эллен

@WillHunting I'm sure there's a good example around somewhere, but I don't know where to loook

user19161

@Robusto This one must be Harrison Ford this time.

user19161

1:26 PM

@MattЭллен I know how: \ifffffffffffffff\.

Matt Эллен

exactly

KitFox

@MattЭллен Really? I don't know that.

user19161

You need to take a deep breath before letting all the ffffffff out.

KitFox

Sometimes I pause in the f: if f.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox Oh, well, 3 people have up voted David Wallace's answer, so I assume it has merit

KitFox

1:28 PM

Just to make sure the other person hears the two fs.

Matt Эллен

3

A: Is "iff" considered a real word or just an abbreviation?

OED 1971 doesn't list iff at all. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition says it's an abbreviation. Difficult to consider it a real word when it's normally pronounced as three separate letters.

user19161

But I think reading it as I F F sounds weird. I would just say if and only if.

Matt Эллен

@Robusto richie cunningham?

user19161

@MattЭллен He is waiting a day before posting the answer, following SE rules.

KitFox

I have never heard it as i-f-f.

Matt Эллен

1:32 PM

I have to commute!

user19161

@MattЭллен I saw your green square leaving and entering at the same time!

Vitaly

@Kit Thank you for the therapy session. I am now convinced that I can spend time more productively reading something other than philosophy.

Robusto

@Robusto It is Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers.

KitFox

@Vitaly feels flattered

I'm happy to discuss consciousness any time.

Robusto

@KitFox Even while asleep?

Vitaly

1:35 PM

@KitFox It's great to have a neuroscientist to ping in this chatroom.

KitFox

@Robusto Especially while asleep.

@Vitaly Well, let's not overstate it. I haven't been a neuroscientist in a long time.

And even then, I wasn't a particularly good one.

Vitaly

@KitFox Oh, you know you are a neuroscientist deep down!

KitFox

I really miss it sometimes.

But most of the time, I am glad that I stepped away from the edge of the abyss.

Vitaly

@KitFox So modest! I am sure you were a brilliant one.

KitFox

Now you are really trying too hard.

user19161

1:38 PM

I think I lack the neurons for cycling, that's why I still can't cycle.

Vitaly

Hmm, so that's how you react when someone keeps talking to you like that. Good to know.

KitFox

And for what it is worth, although I disagree with some of Eliezer's philosophy, he writes better and appears better informed than those others.

@Vitaly I know you well enough to recognize blatant status whoring.

Probably.

But my ego likes the attention, so it works.

Vitaly

@KitFox Yeah, you also know I am not good at status games, so whenever you start putting me on an exalted white pillar of character, ingeniousness and integrity, I am forced to either ignore that or shut up. (I do the latter more often.) But thankfully now I know that I can say that you are trying too hard. ^^

KitFox

:D

Well, we have an understanding then.

I must stop reading Less Wrong now and get back to work.

Except that I'd like to share something funny, speaking of status negotiation.

Vitaly

@KitFox I like this more. More subtle.

KitFox

1:49 PM

My project lead came in to check how I was doing this morning.

Can you guess why?

Vitaly

You are getting a promotion?

KitFox

Hahaha. No.

Vitaly

Aw. :(

KitFox

He even went so far as to ask me if I'd like a doughnut or a muffin.

Or perhaps a cup of coffee.

(Sometimes I take him up on it, because I like to see him go fetch for me.)

Vitaly

Does he ever offer that you call him Heh?

KitFox

1:52 PM

No, all of this just because he wanted me to notice that he was wearing his motorcycle jacket.

@Vitaly Heh?

Vitaly

Hahaha.

@KitFox like Harry took Dumbledore up on that offer. never mind, this is just me talking nonsense.

KitFox

At least, I'm pretty sure that was his motivation.

@Vitaly Haha.

I really do like Eliezer's writing. It's very engaging.

Especially considering that my initial reaction was not so kind.

Vitaly

@KitFox Pray tell.

KitFox

I have a strong 'autodidact = insane' bias.

Vitaly

Oh.

KitFox

1:57 PM

But unlike most, he actually seems to know what he is talking about.

Of course, that could be because I am also a non-expert.

Vitaly

There are enough formally educated people on LW to correct him or anyone else for that matter whenever they make mistakes.

So your being a "non-expert" is a non-issue.

KitFox

I was reading a little of his autobiography and it is kind of painful.

I think that is what I am doing to my oldest boy.

> "Maybe that's why my genius isn't an evolutionary advantage."

Vitaly

Haha.

KitFox

I remember the moment I thought "My intelligence is maladaptive."

Vitaly

@KitFox It needs mentioned that he wrote that back in 2000-something. He keeps referring to his past self as Eliezer_2001, and claims that he made a lot of mistakes back then.

KitFox

2:08 PM

@Vitaly I can hear the difference in his voice.

Vitaly

And you got his permission, right? :P “Please do not quote this material, in whole or in part, without permission of the author.”

KitFox

Shit. I read that too, and made a note not to copy anything.

Then I did it anyway.

Are you going to rat me out?

And I really need to stop reading this stuff.

I can't believe how strongly I identify with him.

Vitaly

I think I've done enough by explicitly stating that Eliezer doesn't want a single sentence copied from there in this transcript.

KitFox

Well, here is me feeling remorseful.

Vitaly

So that any reader who might happen to read this wouldn't be thinking that current-Eliezer is insane.

KitFox

2:11 PM

What? How is that insane?

Vitaly

It does sound insane if you are operating in the status-game plane. How often do you hear people claiming that they have "genius"? That's not something your average status-game-playing Joe does.

KitFox

Hmm. I never was very good at that stuff.

Vitaly

(I think.)

KitFox

That's why the whole "being too smart is maladaptive" thing.

Which was my justification for why I should kill myself.

Except he is obviously a genius.

His synthetic skills are really impressive.

Not to mention his abstraction, analysis, and communication skills.

He seems like the kind of human that I could have an actual interesting discussion with.

Vitaly

Well, you could always apply to the SIAI. :PPP

KitFox

2:17 PM

I could. But I already told you that I traded my genius for survival.

It's my intent to do a better job with my children.

Robusto

@KitFox Wow, I should have thought of that. All I got was this stupid T-shirt. And some magic beans.

KitFox

Hahaha. Sucker.

Vitaly

@KitFox Are you consciously trying to do something to my status by doing something to Eliezer/the SIAI's status—given that you know that I associate myself with that social group—and checking whether I notice it?

Because this still feels weird.

KitFox

Hmm. I'm trying to parse that.

What's weird?

Vitaly

Never mind.

KitFox

2:22 PM

Oh. No. I'm not consciously doing anything except talking to you about something we have in common.

Vitaly

Oh. That's a relief.

KitFox

I assume that would improve our status.

:)

Vitaly

Hmm, are you sure?

KitFox

I'm very confident in my assessment of my social status in this particular chat room.

Vitaly

Nice signalling. :P

KitFox

2:25 PM

:D

See? We're like peas in a pod.

Robusto

No peaing in the pod.

Robusto

2:47 PM

Quick question: Anybody know the quick way to turn off curly quotes in Word 2010? I am searching and can't find it (again).

KitFox

This? techrepublic.com/blog/msoffice/turn-off-words-smart-quotes/1547

Robusto

Google saved the day. Again.

Yeah, that's the article. I was looking for "curly" quotes, but MS calls it "smart" quotes. Which is a misnomer, IMO.

KitFox

I'm trying to remember how to use where exists.

Vitaly

And I'm trying to externalistically individuate the intentional content of a mental representatum. Or at least understand what the heck the philosopher is trying to say. Yeah, I have this little problem: I can't really give up on something that easily.

KitFox

So you are drawing a diagram?

I have a strong anti-German bias.

This guy sounds like a pompous asshole.

But maybe it's just translation artifact, rather than artifice.

Vitaly

2:55 PM

all academic philosophy is like that, in my experience

KitFox

I don't understand the need for obfuscation.

It is a disease of philosophy, I think.

Vitaly

it makes perfect sense to them :(

on second thought, i don't really see how you would go about saying that in simpler english

KitFox

create an external instance of your mental representation class?

Vitaly

i guess defining the process as representation, the object to be represented as representandum, and the representation as representatum has its merits, somehow :/ the plain english representation could be confusing because it could denote both the process and the image

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…