English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Jason Bourne

00:44

@Mitch Some gods think they have seen all worlds, but the Buddha could see worlds they could not see.

Mitch

02:09

@JasonBourne The farther one travels the less one knows

tchrist

02:24

@Mitch Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita / mi ritrovai per una selva oscura / ché la diritta via era smarrita.

Tonepoet

@tchrist Would you please do me a favor and validate a link I reduced from the O.E.D. to me? This should lead to the entry for paradox. My library card only offers proxy access, so I get a different U.R.L. when I do a direct search.

tchrist

@Tonepoet Not on the right computer for that.

Tonepoet

@tchrist I understand. I thank you regardless.

Cerberus

02:52

@Tonepoet Doesn't work for me.

Tonepoet

03:04

@Cerberus I see. How unfortunate. Anyway Cerberus, I was reading The King's English and I must say that the Fowler Brothers have an interesting vocabulary. I was reading the section on neologisms and saw the word otiose, which has one of the most intriguing definitions I've seen in a dictionary. The Century Dictionary and Cyclopedia defines it as meaning:

"2. Made, done, or performed in a leisurely, half-hearted way; perfunctory; negligent; careless; hence, ineffective; vain; futile; to no purpose."

I was tempted to fabricate a question, since it's such an odd little word, but the context makes it all too clear why this definition would apply over the other definition, which is essentially just lazy or idle.

'Tis such an interesting little word that rolls up the meaning of half-hearted and pointless all into one.

Robusto

@Mitch That and the metric system, which is at the root of all these contretemps.

@Tonepoet Be careful where you use it. I got marked off in high school because one of my instructors, a priest, thought I had used it in a critical way about his class. It was, but that's beside the point.

S’io credesse che mia risposta fosse
A persona che mai tornasse al mondo,
Questa fiamma staria senza piu scosse.
Ma percioche giammai di questo fondo
Non torno vivo alcun, s’i’odo il vero,
Senza tema d’infamia ti rispondo.

tchrist

03:23

Can you read that yet, mostly?

Don't try to read it in English in your head.

Robusto

I get much more out of French and Italian now that I'm learning Spanish, it's true.

tchrist

> Si yo creyese que mi respuesta fuese

Robusto

Sí.

tchrist

Knowing Spanish, Italian is harder to read than Portuguese is, but easier to listen to.

Robusto

Somehow the spellings are easier to transliterate for me.

tchrist

03:26

But you can still read it more readily than knowing English grants you the ability to read any other language.

Cerberus

@Tonepoet Excellent!

So what did the Fowlers say about it? They hated it?

@tchrist You know knowing what all of those languages are easier?

tchrist

Knowing Spanish lets you read Italian more easily than any language that knowing English grants you the some facility in reading.

Robusto

@tchrist The classroom I took my last Spanish course in had some Italian "phrase cards" on the cork board, which for about an hour of the first class I didn't notice were actually holdovers from an Italian class. Not until I actually paid attention to them.

tchrist

Well, some words are identical.

And the simple words you get used to, or recognize from French.

Tonepoet

"'A Russian army is a solid machine, as many war-famous generals have found to their cost. — Times.'

Such compounds are of course much used ; but they are ugly when they are otiose ; it might be worth while to talk of a war-famous brewer, or of a peace-famous general, just as we often have occasion to speak of a carpet-knight, but of a carpet-broom only if it is necessary to guard against mistake." — The King's English by H.W. and F.G. Fowler.

Cerberus

03:32

@Tonepoet Ah, see, that's why they are excellent.

Clear, well argued, and practical.

And the word otiose is nice, to be sure.

Robusto

From what I've heard of it, Italian seems to favor a more languid vocal cadence that drifts into sudden stresses.

Cerberus

Of course anyone knowing Latin will recognise it immediately.

tchrist

> Si yo creyera que mi respuesta fuese
a persona que debe volver al mundo,
esta llama estaría sin más callada;

pero como ya nunca desde este fondo
vivo no volvió nadie, si lo que oigo es cierto,
sin temor de infamia te respondo.

Cerberus

@tchrist But knowing Latin makes all of the Romance languages easier, including English, even for the most educated native speakers.

Oops.

tchrist

@Cerberus Someone we know was lamenting guessing whether a word was an -ible one. I did try to explain.

Robusto

03:35

@tchrist The funny thing is, I didn't notice at first that, for example, que had transliterated into che because it was obvious that they just sound like the same word.

Cerberus

Knowing Spanish and learning Italian is like recognising certain floors in a building; knowing Latin is recognising most of the bricks.

@tchrist And did you do it well?

Robusto

@Cerberus Maybe. But I came at it the other way. When I had to study Latin in high school I would recognize the Latin words from English words that had descended from them.

tchrist

@Cerberus I don't know. Search for unmitigably said by me, "in any room". It was around 4am GMT two days ago.

Cerberus

@Robusto Oh, that happens to me too.

@tchrist 0 messages found

tchrist

I have to admit it's nice to intuitively know that cadence MUST be an -ence word.

Cerberus

03:39

I clicked the cross on the tag of the English room.

tchrist

Stupid stemmers.

Robusto

Tonepoet

@tchrist So many of the chatrooms you link feature Picard and Riker wearing those hats, instead of an actual chatroom.

tchrist

@Robusto Mussolini not L14.

Loyalty oaths.

Robusto

Aye.

Cerberus

03:43

@tchrist But as to inmitigably, I think such words can go either way?

Or do we have no such words froms a stems that go -atably? Hmm.

> The productive one in English now is -able, but if it was from a 2nd to 4th conjugation Latin verb, we sometimes retain -ible.

tchrist

@Cerberus mitigo, no?

Mitigate

Cerberus

Yes.

But...?

tchrist

So it's first conjugation, -are.

Robusto

@Cerberus I have never heard or read inmitigably.

Cerberus

@Robusto I must admit I don't remember whether or not I have heard it before.

tchrist

03:46

You can't do "the trick" if you know only French; it takes Latin or Italian or Spanish or Portuguese.

Cerberus

So there are words from Latin a stems that have -atable in English?

Negable?

Rather than negatable?

tchrist

Oh I see what you mean.

I misunderstood you, sorry.

Cerberus

How am I to predict this?

OK.

As to able v. ible, Fowler has a rule for that.

tchrist

Oh?

Other than mine?

> iˈmmitigably [adv.] ← immitigable
indeˈfatigably [adv.]
ˈirrigably [adv.] ← irrigable
ˈnavigably [adv.]
unˈmitigably [adv.]

Leaky Nun

I wouldn't say that learning Latin gives you instant access to the Romance languages

tchrist

03:48

Those are the only ones.

Cerberus

If the English stem of the English verb is not a Latin stem, then it must always be -able, because -ible was never productive in English.

Leaky Nun

the Romance languages changed too much, compared with Latin

tchrist

@Cerberus Well of course.

Cerberus

At first I thought that was what you meant.

tchrist

@Robusto iˈmmitigably

Cerberus

03:49

But it has no bearing on mitigable v. mitigatable.

tchrist

Correct.

Cerberus

OK.

Glad that's clear.

tchrist

The other day a 21yo was asking how to know it's occurrence not -ance.

Cerberus

@tchrist You could have searched for -able rather than -ably?

The -y is not relevant.

tchrist

@Cerberus nope

Robusto

03:49

@tchrist Ah, that one I have encountered.

Cerberus

@tchrist I never know these things.

Leaky Nun

@tchrist occurio was 4th conjugation? (Spanish occurir, i-stem)

Robusto

@Cerb spelled it with an n.

Cerberus

Unless it's an a stem in Latin, you have to know whether it was inherited from French or Latin / at what time.

@LeakyNun Occurro, consonant declension.

tchrist

@LeakyNun Not an -io.

jinx

Cerberus

03:50

@Robusto Ah, that.

tchrist

> † ˈcastigable [adj.]
circumnavigable [adj.]
colligable [adj.]
deˈfatigable [adj.]
deˈfatigableness ← deˈfatigable
ˈfatigable [adj.]
ˈfatigableness ← ˈfatigable
× fatiguable → fatigable
immitigable [adj.]
iˈmmitigably [adv.] ← immitigable
† imperˈvestigable [adj.]
indefatigable [adj.]
indeˈfatigableness [n.]
† infatigaˈbility [adv.] ← inˈfatigable
† inˈfatigable [adj.]
† ininˈvestigable [adj.]
iˌnnavigaˈbility ← innavigable
innavigable [adj.]
† inˈvestigable [adj.2]
investigable [adj.1]
irrigable [adj.]

Cerberus

I make no distinction between nm and mm.

Leaky Nun

@Cerberus I thought "consonant declension" is for nouns

@tchrist what was the Latin word?

Cerberus

@LeakyNun And for verbs, too.

Robusto

@Cerberus That is a curious lack of definition on your part.

tchrist

03:51

occurro

Verb: occurrō (present infinitive occurrere, perfect active occurrī, supine occursum); third conjugation

I run to; I go to meet.
I charge, rush to attack.
I meet, go to, come to.
I resist, oppose, counterattack.
(figuratively) I answer, reply, especially in objection.

(2 more not shown…)

Leaky Nun

@Cerberus what?

Cerberus

Latin verbs can be a, e, i, consonant, mixed i/consonant.

Those are the conjugations.

tchrist

Well, conjugations.

Leaky Nun

Can you give an example of consonant?

Cerberus

@Robusto Well, Latin doesn't make it, so why should I?

@LeakyNun Occurro?

Duco?

Dico?

Leaky Nun

03:53

why are they called "consonant"?

tchrist

What makes you think of those as "consonant"?

jinx again, damn it

Cerberus

Because the stem ends on a consonant.

They have no theme vowel.

Leaky Nun

hmm...

Cerberus

A suprious vowel is inserted for pronunciation, but it's not part of the stem / theme: it changes.

Robusto

Consonants are what prevent you from having a vowel movement.

Leaky Nun

03:54

I would prefer calling them third conjugation

Cerberus

Curris, currit, currunt, curre, currite, currere.

Etc.

tchrist

If they don't have a "theme vowel", than how come it's ducis, ducit, ducimus?

That i has to come from somewhere.

Cerberus

Those are changing vowels added only for pronunciation.

tchrist

Same with dico.

Cerberus

They don't all have the same* vowel as with a theme vowel.

Leaky Nun

03:55

@tchrist it is duc + is, not duci + s

tchrist

I don't know: these all have the normal theme-vowel swap for present subjunctive.

Leaky Nun

the "i" got elided in other conjugations

tchrist

hmmm

Cerberus

@tchrist What do you mean?

tchrist

dicam, dicas, dicat, dicamus

Leaky Nun

03:56

@tchrist but iaceam

Cerberus

@LeakyNun I don't believe that is true?

There was never an i in monet?

Leaky Nun

@Cerberus it's more complicated than that.

it's more like duc + es > ducis

but it's already far from Classical Latin

Cerberus

I must admit I don't know enough about the origin/development of the suppletive vowels in consonantal verbs.

Leaky Nun

@Cerberus they usually don't study it.

Cerberus

But I do believe the endings did not include vowels in Proto-Indo-European.

Leaky Nun

03:58

Oh, I was referring to Proto-Italic

tchrist

iaceo is a related to iacio, and it's one of the 2nd conjugation verbs with "extra" i.

Leaky Nun

hell knows what the endings looked like in PIE

@tchrist what do you mean by "extra i"?

Cerberus

Well, the ending for the second person singular was like -s.

Not -Vs.

@tchrist Yes: iacio is of the consonant/i mixed conjugation.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…