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04:00
@Cerberus I would have to agree
The second conjugation has -eo not just -o.
So I think the suppletive Latin vowels are different from the Greek theme vowels, despite the fact that the latter are also changeable.
@Cerberus right, I know now. It was -s, but was ablauted to e-grade in consonant stems.
so you're right, they never got elided
Ah, are you sure?
@Cerberus well they change to o-grade also
04:01
But that ablaut must have happened in Proto-Indo-European, then, right?
I would agree
@LeakyNun The Latin u?
@Cerberus yes
@LeakyNun But then why aren't they visible in Germanic?
04:02
*doukes > dūcis
*doukomos > dūcimus
*doukont > dūcunt
Or were they later elided in Germanic?
@LeakyNun Oh, that's nice.
This is deserving of a question on Latin.SE!
@Cerberus I don't think this is within their scope, but I might be wrong. Do they care about PIE also?
They long ago wandered off into the weeds of Greece.
Or is that woods? I can never remember.
@LeakyNun Well, a question about the origin of the vowels in consonantal Latin verbs.
If it's only about Proto-Indo-European, then Linguistics.SE.
@Cerberus I thought I already answered you
04:05
@tchrist Did you ever look at Robert Pinsky's translation? amazon.com/dp/B00LDQXBG0/…
Notice how the Spanish Inferno is able to preserve the terza rima.
@Robusto No, I've never read an English translation.
His is quite interesting.
I thought you "couldn't" do terza rima in English.
@LeakyNun You did, but it would be a nice question to have there!
@Cerberus sure
04:06
Ugh, my computer has shut down.
Now you've made me look inside.
Because it's bedtime, or so it insists.
It's right.
@tchrist Apparently he can. He uses slant rhymes to get over Italian's abbondanzo of rhyming words.
@Cerberus do you know any Germanic consonant-stem verb?
04:07
It doesn't rhyme very well.
Those are slant rhymes. Fair game in English.
And really the only way to translate such a work into English.
It doesn't lock in for me like this does:
> En medio del camino de nuestra vida
me encontré en un oscuro bosque,
ya que la vía recta estaba perdida.

¡Ah que decir, cuán difícil era y es
este bosque salvaje, áspero y fuerte,
que al pensarlo renueva el pavor.

Tan amargo, que poco lo es más la muerte:
pero por tratar del bien que allí encontré,
diré de las otras cosas que allí he visto.

No sé bien repetir como allí entré;
tan somnoliento estaba en aquel punto,
que el verdadero camino abandoné.
@LeakyNun Well, in modern Germanic, they are ubiquitous.
Is that new?
Dutch lopen, loopt.
You think there was once a vowel there?
Though you do sadly lose the selva selvaggia of the Italian.
@Cerberus no there isn't a vowel
04:10
@tchrist Obviously the original is preferable. Pinsky's is the first English translation that really sang to me.
*hlaupizi (2.sg), *hlaupandi (3.pl)
It becomes but a bosque salvaje, alas.
@Cerberus e>i, o>a (those are regular changes)
@Robusto Rob, that wasn't the original.
04:10
And the third singular?
> Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita
mi ritrovai per una selva oscura
ché la diritta via era smarrita.
Ahi quanto a dir qual era è cosa dura
esta selva selvaggia e aspra e forte
che nel pensier rinova la paura!
Tant'è amara che poco è più morte;
ma per trattar del ben ch'i' vi trovai,
dirò de l'altre cose ch'i' v'ho scorte.
That is.
@Cerberus 3.sg *hlaupidi
The earlier one is a Spanish translation.
Ok I see.
@tchrist Haha, I should have read before commenting.
I didn't even notice it was Spanish.
04:11
That's so funny.
how is it Spanish?
it looks very Italian to me
although I suppose they're more similar in the past
It's odd how little Germanic cares about having two consonants in immediate succession.
@LeakyNun This is Spanish:
> En medio del camino de nuestra vida
me encontré en un oscuro bosque,
ya que la vía recta estaba perdida.
@Cerberus abstract, you mean?
This is Italian:
> Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita
mi ritrovai per una selva oscura
ché la diritta via era smarrita.
04:12
@tchrist oh sure
Well, s is a bit of a semi-consonant...
ssssss
@Cerberus sure
You wouldn't believe me if I say that Latin locus once had an st- before it
But even two occlusives at a word's end.
@LeakyNun ?
04:14
Ah, I believe I have seen that.
r and l are semi-vowels.
@tchrist Old Latin stlocus > Latin locus
It has some sort of effect on classical Latin that I cannot now remember.
Strange is the people that can say stl-.
str- would also be strange
the "t" wasn't a "ch" like in English "tr"
04:15
Perhaps because it was related to a word like Germanic stellen?
the "r" was rolled
Of course.
Dental t.
@Cerberus indeed.
Right.
@Cerberus so have I answered your question about (remnants of) ablaut in Germanic consonant-stem verbs?
04:17
extraneus > extraño, but nobody says /kstr/ there: they drop the /k/.
I think so!
Too many consonants.
The Greeks of course had more.
@tchrist for example?
By the way, I believe the same root of locus is present in the name of my city.
@tchrist while French says "eff the s" (that's a later development though)
04:18
Not in sequence, but rather combos in the initial position.
@LeakyNun yes
@tchrist you're referring to pt-?
@Cerberus where is your city?
@LeakyNun And such, yes.
Here's a puzzle for you: why does English have no sb- words?
It is the capital of a Germanic country.
@tchrist which language has?
@LeakyNun English has spell but never sbell.
04:19
@Cerberus Amsterdam, I see.
@LeakyNun Italian.
sbalio
@tchrist the Italian sb- is from disb-
and the "s" is pronounced "z"
Hmm ... makes me suspect disperse and disburse must be related.
More importantly, Italian doesn't have aspirated stops to neutralize.
oops, the s- is also from es- (ex-)
04:21
Foreign listeners often hear sb in our words like speed.
You have to be trained not to hear it as a /b/.
I see
We wouldn't pronounce it differently if it were spelled with a "b".
@tchrist well, my native language doesn't have voiced stops. I needed to train it myself.
Allophones?
@LeakyNun Which language is that?
04:22
Cantonese
@tchrist what?
English didn't have voicing as a phonemic distinction, at least at the ends of words.
you mean doesn't?
No, didn't.
Does now.
/v/ and /f/ are phonemically distinct today.
04:23
@tchrist Middle Chinese did have voiced stops. Those lowered the pitches, and developed into different tones. Then the initial consonants were devoiced.
Same with the fricatives in thigh versus thy.
@tchrist oh, I thought you were talking about stops
Well, I think the stops at the end devoiced.
As though hard > hart
@tchrist indeed
As still occurs in some of the other Germanic tongues today.
04:24
and the remnant is in the vowel length
Right.
@tchrist even in French (positif, positive)
As in writer vs rider in North American English.
@LeakyNun Indeed.
@LeakyNun Hadn't noticed that, but yes.
04:25
Do the Greek theme vowels come from ablaut too?
@Cerberus how does it share a root with locus?
Your Indo-European is remarkably erudite for a Cantonese speaker!
> for a Cantonese speaker
>_>
:)
Teasing.
There probably was a very old Germanic word like A or E (umlaut) meaning water.
Also sometimes Aam.
04:28
@Cerberus ᾰ̓λέξεις (2sg), ᾰ̓λέξει (3sg), ᾰ̓λέξομεν (1pl), ᾰ̓λέξουσῐ (3pl)
Aemstel was a settlement on the river now called Amstel.
Then it was abandoned, and the people thought it was the name of the river.
Oh, I always thought it was Oomstel. :)
First thing I though of was eme (Dutch oom).
And then people resettled the place and built a dam.
@Cerberus Proto-Germanic ahwō (Latin aqua) > Old English ēa
When you mentioned Aam.
04:29
@Cerberus C'mon, it can't be that simple.
@Cerberus and where is the locus part?
And caked their town something like Aemstelledamme.
Caked?
He said caked.
Stelle must be related.
"Place".
04:30
Nova?
I see
@Cerberus Like German stellen?
stellen
jinx
jinx
betcha
04:31
@Cerberus you're probably right: 'The river name is said to be from Germanic elements ama "current" and stelle "place."'
damn you
@LeakyNun Right, I seemed to remember it might be related to aqua. Funny how French turned that into a very similar sound...
@Cerberus sure
Possibly under Germanic influence, who knows...probably not.
04:33
@Robusto Exactly!
Sometimes I think there is some assembly language for human tongues that operates beneath the abstraction layers we have set up.
@LeakyNun Yes, but are those from ablaut?
In some models of phonology as well as morphophonology in the field of linguistics, the underlying representation (UR) or underlying form (UF) of a word or morpheme is the abstract form that a word or morpheme is postulated to have before any phonological rules have applied to it. By contrast, a surface representation is the phonetic representation of the word or sound. The concept of an underlying representation is central to generative grammar. If more phonological rules apply to the same underlying form, they can apply wholly independently of each other or in a feeding or counterbleeding order...
@Robusto Aka. Proto-Indo-European!
Typing on my phone.
@Cerberus Perhaps, perhaps.
04:35
So.
Slow.
@Robusto Like /kl/ at the start of words.
@Cerberus get a desktop
Especially in bed.
@LeakyNun Possibly.
@Robusto I don't quite believe in that theory though
04:36
6
A: Clench/clasp something in your fist?

John LawlerThere's quite a few English words beginning with /kl/ that will work here. It turns out that kl- is the assonance (initial cluster) that tends to mean 'together'. 51% (43 of 84) of the English simplex words beginning with that cluster (mostly spelled 'CL' instead of 'KL') refer to a very primal ...

I might strangle myself in my sleep with all the wires.
@tchrist It's a clue.
Maybe a cluster of clues.
@LeakyNun I can't remember the details of the thing I think you're referring to. When I read about it, it did give me pause though.
Nunc Morpheus vocat.
Addio!
Does.
Night.
04:38
Clam, clap, cleave, clash, claw ...
It's like why all the freezes like criss-cross go from a tight vowel to a broader one.
@Cerberus Tell Morpheus to treat you better this time.
The vorpal blade goes snicker snack.
@Robusto I fear he is deaf...
Bye!
Sleep well.
04:40
There's a phonoaesthetic reason that Tolkien used for the Word that created the world.
@Cerberus I've no idea.
We sense deeper assonances at times, but whether we're imagining them, I don't know.
@Cerberus It's funny that your bedtime and mine so often coincide, even though we're eight hours apart.
Long have I noted this.
And so to bed. Night all.
04:43
are all the experts leaving now?
I purport to no especial expertise, only notable somnolence.
does anyone here know how "there is an apple" would be said in Old English?
(The apple part isn't important)
I don't know; Rob might.
and it's a coincidence that his avatar says "dream"
German of course is very different, es gibt and such. Romance tends to use "it has there" things from habere.
04:46
because he's probably dreaming right now
@tchrist sure, but "da ist" is also available in German
I don't know when English started with there, which is of course an old word.
I have another question
when did people stop pronouncing "h" in Latin?
That one I may know.
It was very early.
sure, but when?
if you don't know the exact time, could you compare it to the ae > e change?
200-400 IIRC.
I have...a book, somewhere, but I am very sleepy.
04:49
what about ae > e?
There is a very old document in Latin saying it's X not Y with all these.
what made me think about this is how people pronounce "irrepraehensibilis" as, you know, "irreprehensibilis", and I thought, were they present at the same time?
So that tells us when people noticed it and were bitching about it.
@tchrist appendix probi, not very old
@LeakyNun Age?
04:50
@tchrist "third or fourth century AD"
Didn't I say 200-400? :)
sure
> aquaeductus non aquiductus
Yup.
I don't know your answers. Ask the dog. :)
> terraemotus non terrimotium
@tchrist who?
> hostiae non ostiae
I'm surprised they still had any -m left, honestly.
@LeakyNun That was the one I was thinking of.
Cerberus is the Dog.
04:52
> numquam non numqua
And perhaps they did not.
I don't think they had any -m left
just that they spelled everything with -m
ha
Because they didn't say it.
So it didn't matter.
the rule is simple enough: -m in accusative, no -m in everything else
Wait, I know the rule.
They forgot it.
04:53
they forgot it when they spake, not when they wrote
Well...
Those things used to be the same.
If they didn't say it, why then would they write it?
@tchrist because everyone else wrote it
> pridem non pride
olim non oli
idem non ide
Is that complaining about writing or speaking?
> The Appendix lists common mistakes in the written Latin of the time.
Yes, but they'll have said what they wrote. That's why they made "mistakes".
04:55
but the -m was simple enough
like they know "you write -m when you use accusative"
"even if you don't pronounce it"
> poples non poplex
locuples non locuplex
> adipes non alipes
what is this?
What do you mean?
people pronounced "adipes" as "alipes"?
That's hard to imagine the shift on.
@tchrist say that to the Americans
None of the inflections have an -L-.
@LeakyNun That's hard to imagine the dressing-gown on?
04:58
voiced alveolar stop > alveolar flap
I don't think shift is particularly British.
@tchrist I mean, the Americans have a similar shift
If it were spelt aripes I could have seen it.
If that's what you mean.
04:59
I thought r was trilled
It was.
Well.
so the alveolar flap would have been closer to l
We're not completely certain that it was ALWAYS trilled everywhere.
It may have been a flap/trill thing phonologically conditioned.
> terebra non telebra
@tchrist sure
@LeakyNun That one is common.
05:00
@tchrist but that's a dissimilation, not an assimilation
> cannelam nun canianus
Appendix Probi is drunk
and no, that isn't a typo
I should probably ask this in latin.SE
Spanish has almirante for English admiral.
I was trying to think of an L/D thing.
@tchrist interesting
But it was originally from Arabic, so I'm not sure who's to blame for what here.
there was no consonant there
> From Old French amirail, amiral, from Arabic أَمِير اَلْبَحْر (ʾamīr al-baḥr, “commander of the fleet”).
Nope.
French still should just be amiral.
05:04
Spanish was influenced by al-
That's what I was thinking.
And English's excuse? Dunno.
Latin platea yielded plaza and praça both. And piazza. And place. Lots of things.
More L/R: Spanish has inglesia for church, but Portuguese has ingreja.
@tchrist reanalysis of Old French a- as Latin ad-
@LeakyNun I'll buy that.
@tchrist no n for both languages
@tchrist that's just my guess
@LeakyNun What are my fingers doing!?
This is why I have to go to sleep.
05:09
sure
It was nice talking to you, Sister.
I share the pleasure, Lord.
Sor. Whatever the title is for a nun.
"Sor" sounds extremely Hong Kong English
Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, O.S.H. (English: Sister Joan Agnes of the Cross; 12 November 1651 – 17 April 1695), was a self-taught scholar, philosopher and poet of the Baroque school, and Hieronymite nun of New Spain, known in her lifetime as "The Tenth Muse", "The Phoenix of America", or the "Mexican Phoenix". Sor Juana lived during Mexico's colonial period, making her a contributor both to early Mexican literature as well as to the broader literature of the Spanish Golden Age. Beginning her studies at a young age, Sor Juana was fluent in Latin and also wrote in Nahuatl, and became known for her...
05:10
oh.
"Sor" is Spanish for sister but ONLY as a nun.
In Hong Kong we say "sor" instead of "sorry"
Oh.
Sleeping now, good night.
bye
seruit = he has joined together
servit = he serves
but they would have been written the same.
 
4 hours later…
09:27
@Tonepoet That Dilworth's spelling book looks religious. Have you gone through it, or skimmed it?
Thanks for the links nonetheless.
@Tonepoet Where do you hear about such antique books? Your research is impressive sometimes.
@englishstudent I actually read some of the the front-matter to dictionaries and other textbooks. They often provide comparisons between their works, and the exemplars which came before them.
There are other ways, but that's the one that seems easiest to recollect.
@englishstudent I should further note that sometimes they also mention their inspiration or recommendations for textbooks regarding another subject. By reading the front matter to the O.E.D. 1st edition for instance, or even just enough looking around on their website, you'll see the work that inspired the O.E.D., On some deficiencies in our English Dictionaries which is very interesting.
Or perhaps if you're buying the Macguffy Readers, they'll suggest Webster's spelling book.
09:46
Cool. I almost never pay attention to 'preface' or 'front matter' of a book, but now I will try to change my habit. In dictionaries (in physical form) I just go through the pronunciation guide and the words' entries .
@englishstudent Also, I haven't looked through much of it, but I am principally aware of the issue. 18th and 19th century education was handled in large part by churches and priests, rather than any governmental institution, so religious verse would have probably been considered good reading material to test out any newfound syllable parsing skills.
ah I see. That makes sense.
Wow I see it was busy in chat.
and now a completely different batch of people inhabited this room
timezone
For me, I don't sleep regularly, so the time zone doesn't really apply to me. When I come to chat is random, and when I even have an account is random.
09:54
@englishstudent how did you enter this chat?
@Tonepoet So you wrote "would have probably been considered" if I wrote the same thing I would write "would probably have been considered". So do you think both are correct?
your chat profile says that you have 82 rep
@LeakyNun What do you mean?
but your network profile says that you only have 1 rep
I am surprised to see you here @LeakyNun. I thought you only hang out in the math room.
09:55
@JasonBourne I am mainly in The Nineteenth Byte
@LeakyNun And what site may that be for?
but I see that people here discuss linguistics (and evolution) also
@JasonBourne ppcg.se
@LeakyNun You are looking at it wrong. I have more than 20 rep on the other site.
It is hidden.
why would you make it hidden :o
It was automatic. Also why are you so curious?
09:56
@englishstudent I currently have a preference for the way I wrote it, but without any explicit research on the matter I think both are alright. I reserve the right to change my mind on the matter though.
@englishstudent just asking
@Tonepoet I see, thanks a bunch.
@Tonepoet What is the latest book you bought?
@Tonepoet We always can change our minds, even after promising something. That really goes without saying. That's why so many people divorce after marrying.
10:16
@JasonBourne Hmm, I don't recall all of them. I bought a batch of books at the thrift store recently, which included another copy of the Chicago Manual of Style 15th edition, (I hadn't taken good care of my first one), the 12th (or maybe 13th) edition (for comparison) and the Harvard Dictionary of Music.
@Tonepoet Why don't you just buy the latest 16th edition and forget about the older ones?
@JasonBourne I can buy the older edition for pennies on the dollar, and I don't believe that language is in such a state of flux that ten or so years is going to make a significant difference in content.
Also, let us suppose that I want to stylize content as it would have been done in the 1980s: The Chicago Manual of Style 13th edition (I just checked) has a copyright date of 1982, and I can consult my Random House Webster's Second Edition ('86) for definitions.
Finally, actually comparing how different the books really are can give me a sense of how much change is actually being made (beyond mere hypothesis) and what kinds of changes are occurring.
@Mitch haha, yeah all fun is drained out of a joke if you explain it. I didn't mean to ruin the joke :P I genuinely didn't get it.
@JasonBourne One thing I'm especially interested in seeing in the Chicago Manual of style is their orthography suggestions. Editions 1-7, which are in the public domain and hence available to me online all have a spelling list. I want to see if these editions retain it, and if they'd changed their suggestions.
11:01
> : Let's see, Raj was the Kung Pao Chicken.
: I'm the dumplings.
: Yes, you are.
: Who was the Shrimp with Lobster Sauce?
[from The Big Bang Theory]
I'm the dumplings???
Hi, I'm the dumplings. You must be the Shrimp with Lobster Sauce.
 
2 hours later…
13:11
@Robusto Yes, and @Færd dared accuse me of having a normal sleep cycle!
@RegDwigнt Can someone explain to me why this video has been watched over 2 billion times?
There is nothing special about it.
Not that there is anything special about the rest of the top 10, but those are music videos, and they are in English, so it makes sense that they should have been watched a great many times.
13:28
@Cerberus let's continue talking about PIE?
13:51
@LeakyNun It would simply be Þǽr is.
@Robusto citation?
Let me see ...
Would The Seafarer be good enough?
Wow, what a nice rendering of that poem.
@Robusto what is the leftmost column?
A rendering of the words as actually written, not typography (though, of course, they are typographically rendered here).
It's still a font, but it's designed to look like the pen-and-ink original.
hmm...
13:59
The font is called "Beowulf" and can be downloaded here, apparently: dafont.com/beowulf-modern.font
Pretty nice, if you ask me.

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