English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Ahmed Salhin

00:26

I have written the following sentence:

“My experience in teaching, research in the statistics discipline, and applying for external research funding are in line with the lectureship requirements of your department.”

But my proofreader changed it to

“My experience in teaching, research in the statistics discipline, and application for external research funding are in line with the lectureship requirements of your department.”

I am still feeling the first one is correct, but not sure if I am right or not?

Lawrence

01:12

@AhmedSalhin Your proofreader has a point. The problem is the parallel between teaching and applying. In your original, the parallel terms make teaching look like the continuous tense: teaching ... for external research funding. Doing it the other way makes teaching look more like a reference to the profession.

Ahmed Salhin

Thanks @Lawrence, does the the second statement still maintains the meaning I intented? I mean if the statement is read as " My experience in application for external funding" , does it still mean " My experience in applying for external funding"?

Lawrence

@MετάEd I was still working out the group norms mostly by observation. Your linked answer is a good summary. Thanks for posting it.

@AhmedSalhin It's there, though arguably application should be plural (if true; if not, use "an application ..."). Another simple way to change your original is to repeat the word in: "... and in applying for ...". This disconnects the word teaching from for external research funding.

Ahmed Salhin

Great, thanks!

Lawrence

:)

Bye.

Færd

01:38

Oh boy, look how many times I got pinged.

@Mitch @MετάEd Okay, thanks.

tchrist

02:02

@Færd As genus to general, so corpus to corporal. And so all the rest I listed.

Færd

@tchrist Thank you; I was busting my head to find a pattern.

tchrist

Or genera and corpora to play straight noun to noun.

The pattern lies in the third declension. :)

But shrimp tempura is un related. :}

Well, mostly.

> The word "tempura", or the technique of dipping fish and vegetables into a batter and frying them, comes from the word "tempora", a Latin word meaning "times", "time period" used by both Spanish and Portuguese missionaries to refer to the Lenten period or Ember Days (ad tempora quadragesimae), Fridays, and other Christian holy days.

At some remove, but ok.

Think tempus fugit.

Færd

I don't know almost any Latin, but I'm beginning to. :)

tchrist

Heh, yes English will do that to you!

It's the next best thing to an actual Romance language.

For learning Latin, I mean.

Færd

I just bought this great book: Merriam-Webster's Vocabulary Builder for this sort of exploration.

tchrist

02:11

I don't imagine you know any French or Spanish or Italian or Portuguese?

Færd

No, none.

tchrist

Well, you do but you don't know you do.

Færd

Yay!

tchrist

Because of the preponderance of Latin vocabulary in professorial English.

Like the three big words in that sentence.

Færd

You're tempting me to go for some direct Latin study.

tchrist

02:15

Plus that list of English words I gave you are all from the Latin third declension, and so have close cognates in the real Romance languages, mutatis mutandis.

amazon.com/Latin-Alive-Survival-English-Languages/dp/0521734185

That requires you to know no Latin, nor even French or Spanish or Italian, although it talks about them all.

Færd

Great. Thanks.

tchrist

You'd learn a lot of interesting stuff!

Færd

Is Latin really alive? On its own?

tchrist

Read the book. :)

Yes, in various places, but mostly in its children and step-children.

English is not one of its children by blood, of course.

Taxonomic binomials must agree using Latin rules though: noun for genus, adjective for species, and the adjective must match the noun in gender and number.

Færd

Okay, I'm going to stop asking further questions about Latin and its children and go read the book instead.

tchrist

02:18

heh

You're lucky it's just me not Cerb!

The genus is the general type of something and the species the specific type of something. Do you see what I did there?

Færd

Yeah!

tchrist

You need look at only the barest smattering of Latin for that all to make sense: hidden patterns.

Færd

But that doesn't tell me if it's third declension or what.

tchrist

English has no Latin grammar whatsoever, pace taxonomic binomials, but it has nearly half its vocabulary ~~stolen~~ borrowed from Latin.

@Færd Actually, it would, because you would see the -us goes to -r- blah thing and know it is third not second (or fourth).

tempus, genus, corpus > tempora(l), genera(l), corpora(l).

Færd

@tchrist But that means I don't have to pay attention o the grammar.

tchrist

02:24

Pretty much.

But you can see the patterns in the stems.

Færd

Etymology of English words used to infuriate me.

It took some time to be able to see the patterns.

Now it's very fun.

tchrist

Latin Alive doesn't much talk about Latin grammar in English, because there isn't any. It talks about vocabulary in English, French, Spanish, and Italian, but only the ones that make sense for someone who knows English. It also talks about what happened to Latin grammar in the Romance tongues.

Færd

Yesterday I found out that twist and two are related, and I was like Wow!

tchrist

Latin was a highly inflected language, like Greek or Sanskrit. None of the others I just listed are, at least not any longer. It's been a very long time.

You know how some people say "y'all" to mean "you all"?

Færd

Yes.

tchrist

02:27

Turns out that Old English had a contraction for "we two" as well, written "wit" but pronounced like "weet".

Except it had worn down so long people didn't think of it as a contraction any longer.

Today we would say "we both".

Færd

Is it related to today's wit?

tchrist

Nope.

But that word, today's wit, has quite a bit of history itself.

The wit I mean was a personal pronoun in the dual number, like we is the personal pronoun in the plural number.

Færd

I see.

tchrist

However.

When we say to wit, we are using a verb.

There used to be an Old English verb witan.

It meant "to be wise".

Or to know, to understand, to feel, to be aware.

To have wit, one might say.

Færd

I guess it relates to wise somehow.

tchrist

02:32

Indeed so.

And to witch actually.

Sometimes you will find archaic but "modern" English text using wot as a verb.

That's the same verb.

So when we say "to wit", we are meaning "to know".

But most people no longer wot that, wot wot?

That's in Old English, which is as foreign to me as it is to you. It is . . . a different language.

Færd

wonder-smiles

tchrist

Færd

My problem with etymology was that you have to know so many stories. Each family of words has one. It didn't look coherent to me.

tchrist

Well this is true.

Færd

In some other languages there are universal accurate algorithms to form so many words.

Which makes guessing at their meanings so easier.

tchrist

02:39

Hm, I seem to have little trouble with that in English. :)

Færd

@tchrist But when you get familiar with these stories, it becomes kind of amusing.

tchrist

I'm teasing. You have to learn a lot of old languages, like Old French or Latin or both, and something older and Germanic, before you can even get started. Danish and Dutch are a good pair for the Germanic set.

Because English has a lot of not just Old English but a good bit of Old Norse added too.

Færd

I don't know if I'll ever have time for all that.

tchrist

Dutch is the better of those two, but Danish gives things you would miss otherwise.

Of course not, and it isn't worth it.

Færd

Phew.

tchrist

02:42

It might, however, be worth learning something that a lot of people speak.

Danish and Dutch are not those.

Spanish might be.

Færd

Spanish doesn't sound attractive in my ear, as French does, for example.

That's an important factor for me.

tchrist

Of course, that will give you insights mostly into the Romance side of English. There's also the Visigoth/Gothic terms in Spanish shared by English, plus a fair bit of Arabic there (7%) but that you already know.

That's funny: Tolkien disliked the sound of French and liked the sound of Spanish. I don't think he ever quite told us why.

I'm not sure I have that sense myself, at least not any longer.

French is stress timed like English, though, but it does not have phonemic stress.

Færd

> When actress Ingrid Bergman, who knew five languages, was asked which she preferred, she replied: “English for acting, Italian for romance, French for diplomacy, German for philosophy . . . and Swedish for secrecy, because so few people know it.”

tchrist

Spanish is syllable timed like Italian or Japanese, which makes it sound very different.

A common refrain, changed for the speaker. Like Salvador Dalí, ending in Catalan.

European Portuguese sounds like a cross between French and something Slavic.

Færd

@tchrist You mention him from time to time.

tchrist

02:49

I do.

He was a very great linguist.

Færd

I'm going to listen to the audio version of The Lord of the Rings.

tchrist

He probably knew about the names of things in English than anyone alive in his day.

Færd

See how much of it I can decipher.

Oh .. names.

I don't know enough names in my own language.

tchrist

@Færd Have you listened to the BBC Radio version of it? That's the best one.

Færd

The other night my mother lectured me on what is eggplant and what is courgette.

And not in English, in Farsi!

@tchrist No; I'll look for it.

tchrist

02:53

Hahah!

The Lord of the Rings (1981 radio series)

In 1981 BBC Radio 4 produced a dramatisation of J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings in 26 half-hour stereo installments. The novel had previously been adapted as a 12-part BBC Radio adaptation in 1955 and 1956 (of which no recordings are known to have survived), and a 1979 production by The Mind's Eye for National Public Radio in the USA. Like the novel on which it is based, The Lord of the Rings is the story of an epic struggle between the Dark Lord Sauron of Mordor, the primary villain of the work, and an alliance of heroes who join forces to save the world from falling under his shadow...

amazon.com/The-Lord-Rings-BBC-Dramatization/dp/0553456539

@Færd Courgettes are zucchini. Aubergines are eggplant.

The British think themselves French, but I'm not buying it. :)

Færd

Realized it after typing it. Yes.

tchrist

bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2014/10/…

Færd

I guess I have enough homework for now. Thanks a lot @tchrist.

tchrist

You're welcome: enjoy!

Færd

and good night.

tchrist

02:57

Yes, it is that time, thank you. You too.

tchrist

04:34

The hammer of April is about to fall.

Inches, ok. Feet, maybe. But when they start calling for snowfall amounts in yards, it's time to buy groceries.

PhMgBr

05:11

@tchrist Those are very many rings indeed

SmokeDetector

05:21

[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, pattern-matching website in body: Create muscle diet could be by Vicki Ward on english.stackexchange.com …

crl

08:38

I need to find a property name for something...

I have a tree of elements, those elements have names, like List, Text, Line, Tab, Form, Input, Select

but I want Input and Select (and their possible List wrapper) to only be as children of a Form

so when generating the tree, when I encounter a Form, I'd spread a property all down in the descendance, and I need a name for this property whose value would be 'Form' simply

could be type: 'Form', or group: 'Form', or family: 'Form', but not really happy with them

How would you call the 'belonging' of the descendance of an element name like Form?

skill patrol

children?

crl

already used, for direct children (of a List) :)

it's like a genre/class too (like animals :))

you want to have only humans, monkeys, gorillas to be in the Primates category or Hominidae

and not put a Dolphin there

I don't like type or group, but well will go with that..

terdon

09:12

members?

crl

thought about it, thanks

skill patrol

elements?

crl

elementsOf/childrenOf maybe :)

no worry thanks, I'll find out

johnchae

09:46

Hello guys

skill patrol

hi

johnchae

Hi @skillpatrol

skill patrol

how are you?

johnchae

I just done my 2nd recording so I thought I would post here to get your opinions

Oh I'm good

Thank you, how are you?

skill patrol

fine thanks :-)

johnchae

09:53

@skillpatrol

Can you give me your thoughts on this: vocaroo.com/i/s1jQ07OPN7UZ?

skill patrol

listening...

...need to listen to it once more

johnchae

Ok, no hurry

^^

skill patrol

ok, done

johnchae

:D

How was it?

skill patrol

overall, pretty good

you struggle at times, but you fight your way out of it :)

johnchae

10:04

Is my native accent too heavy?

skill patrol

Not "too heavy"

did you try what I suggested yesterday yet?

johnchae

I did, but not so much

I mean this morning I did some speaking out loud in front of the mirror, but that's not that much

just 10 mins or so

skill patrol

what do you use as a source to imitate?

johnchae

You mean which accent I'm following?

skill patrol

yes

johnchae

10:08

American accent

skill patrol

from where?

johnchae

Was it a bit hard to understand so that you had to listen to it twice?

skill patrol

yes

johnchae

Oh

I think mostly from movies

and dictionary

skill patrol

i couldn't get the "bored" part the first time

johnchae

10:11

Oh

skill patrol

May i suggest searching youtube for english as second language for beginners and starting at an easy level working for speed an fluency?

johnchae

Yes, please

Could you recommend me some channels for that?

skill patrol

this is the best room to ask for that :-)

it should be active in a couple hours

johnchae

I'm in

skill patrol

cool

crl

10:59

TIL scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-flies-and-other-in

Lawrence

@SmokeDetector Almost looked like SmokeDetector was breaking out in verse. :)

Hi everyone, just dropping in for a bit.

crl

1

^ here's your bit

Lawrence

:)

@crl The 'descendance' (process) would normally be a specialisation, like (colour -> red). As for the 'belonging' of a 'descendance', I'd be guessing. Can you rephrase to clarify what you meant?

TTFN.

Mitch

11:37

@crl I expected 0

1 will do

Pichi Wuana

Hello

Mitch

@johnchae You have very good grammar (I don't hear any mistakes at all) and it flows very naturally (so it sounds like you could speak well formally as well as informally). You do have an accent though, and the general feel for that will come with speaking over and over after listening to native speakers and trying to mimic them (in fact exaggerate the English or American accent you hear).

But specifically, you have a tendency to drop the endings of words altogether. eg 'hard' sounds like 'har' and 'its' like 'iss' or 'i', or 'build' as 'bill'. American English is slowly moving that way, but to go all the way and drop the last consonant is too much. practice completing the words all the way.

johnchae

Hi @Mitch,

Mitch

hey!

johnchae

Thank you so much for your comment, I just sat down at the computer and saw your comments as you've just posted them

Mitch

11:46

@KitZ.Fox Has it been two hours yet?

Pichi Wuana

How would you write this:? "will write something in/on the site"

Mitch

on

Pichi Wuana

thanks

!

Mitch

np

johnchae

@Mitch

Mitch

11:49

@johnchae you can put the ping at the beginning of a message that has content. YOu don't have to put it alone.

johnchae

I often use Google Now to double check the pronunciation of the words I'm learning

Mitch

i think google translate has pronunciation for English too

johnchae

So I want to ask you if I can totally rely on it, as sometimes I found it misunderstood me even though I pronounced the word correctly (I think)

Yeah, I mean I use my voice to search for keywords, in that way I think I can double-check my pronunciation of the words I'm using to search for

But the thing is sometimes I think it misunderstand me even though with the easy words, and I'm pretty confident that I'm pronouncing them right

So I'm not sure 100% if I can rely on it to correct my accent myself

I mean using Google Now on an Android phone

Also @Mitch , tomorrow I will be recording my voice practicing those words you mentioned above

Mitch

12:08

@johnchae It's hard to judge a system like that without direct experience (I don't have an Android)

johnchae

Oh I see, but yeah, thank you so much for your input, I'll try to improve my pronunciation, and make it even better in the next recordings

Mitch

@johnchae but to speculate, is there an option to transcribe what you say into text?

Even then sometimes the machine with read between the lines and may even fix errors.

johnchae

@Mitch, yeah, like Siri on iOS, Cortana on Windows phone, and Google Now on Android

Mitch

Yes, I figured it was something like that. But the different systems may have different technologies underneath, with different subtleties

johnchae

Ok, actually @skillpatrol has given me some good videos on YouTube to work for speed an fluency, so yeah, I'm thinking of spending maybe 1-2 more hours just to listen to them

Shafizadeh

12:15

"make out" means "sex" ?

Mitch

@Shafizadeh more like 'kissing for a long time'

Shafizadeh

Ah .. got it :-)

Mitch

@johnchae I actually recommend speaking slower first for practice to get the patterns right. speeding up will make you slur through things in patterns you're used to in your native language rather than slurring by English patterns

Shafizadeh

And my last question: What's the meaning of "last" in this context? "Money, position and titles don't last ... love, kindness and patience does."

Ixrec

in this context, it means to stick around for a long time

johnchae

12:21

@Mitch I see

Shafizadeh

@Ixrec ok, but I think that sentence doesn't make sense

Ixrec

we can disagree with that sentence, but it makes perfect sense

Shafizadeh

Then I cannot understand its point ..!

Ixrec

money and a position are the sorts of thing one can lose very quickly, and once gone there's typically nothing left; the fact that you were once rich is completely meaningless

Shafizadeh

Ohh .. Got it now .. thx pal

Ixrec

12:24

usually loving someone is the sort of thing that never completely goes away, they'll always remember it, even if everyone's feelings change, it'll never be as if it didn't happen

at least that's the sort of sentiment the line is probably going for

Kit Z. Fox

12:53

Wait. What's @Ixrec doing in here? Are you trying to confuse me?

@Mitch Not quite.

Mitch

OK, just tell when it's time.

user204373

Why these chats are different? I have been to other chats on the internet too, these ones seem a little different.

Kit Z. Fox

@johnchae I agree with Mitch. Your vocabulary and grammar are very good. The hardest part is that you are dropping the ends of your words, which makes it sometimes hard to understand. I think you said you were Vietnamese? I wonder if you are used to open syllables, that is, if most syllables end in vowels or soft consonants in your native tongue.

In which case, over-pronouncing simple c-v-c English words (like cat, mat, bat, tall, ball, fun, run) might help get your mouth in shape. Give it a few minutes a day and really hit the final consonant.

Ixrec

@KitZ.Fox completely honest answer: A few days ago there was a flag and I followed it in here. So I was logged into here by default for a while, and earlier today someone said ""make out" means "sex" ?" in here which showed up in my Mos Eisley sidebar and I was sufficiently bored/amused to go see what the context was.

Kit Z. Fox

Oh. That's less exciting than I had hoped.

Shafizadeh

13:03

"x no make sense" OR "x doesn't make sense" ?

Kit Z. Fox

X doesn't make sense.

Or x makes no sense.

Shafizadeh

ok thx

Ixrec

@KitZ.Fox would you prefer I was part of a secret cabal that got rid of the ELU mod you replaced and now I'm in here to secretly figure out who's going down next?

Kit Z. Fox

What mod did I replace?

Ixrec

(not being serious)

Kit Z. Fox

13:04

narrows eyes What's all this then?

user204373

Can we replace all "gotten"s in a sentence to "got" if we want to use BrE?

Kit Z. Fox

I don't know. Do you have an example sentence?

user204373

Yes, looking...

Shafizadeh

Sorry for asking a lot, I promise this will be one of the last ones :-)

Is this sentence correct?

"I added some new things to my answer based on your edit."

Ixrec

it certainly looks valid to me

Shafizadeh

13:13

great .. thx

Shafizadeh

13:25

Writing "Kudos" at the end of a letter is something like "regards"?

user204373

Kudos is like a praise.

Shafizadeh

I see

user204373

For example, "He received kudos from everyone on his performance."

user204373

Well Webster will tell you everything: dictionary.com/browse/kudos

Shafizadeh

Yeah got it :-)

johnchae

13:56

Hi @KitZ.Fox, sorry for this very late response, I wasn't around here at the time.

And also, sorry for not getting your nickname right too (in my recording, I though you were Kiz)

:p

Kit Z. Fox

@johnchae No problem. I knew you'd see it when you came around again.

@johnchae I'm not offended.

You can use my name for practicing your final consonants.

;)

johnchae

@KitZ.Fox And to me, I don't find these word any difficult to pronounce.

(like cat, mat, bat, tall, ball, fun, run)

I mean those

Kit Z. Fox

Let's hear them then.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…