English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

19:00

It really is a shame, because America has so many good things.

Kitḫ

rolls eyes, snuggles up with blanky, gets back to writing code

Jez

I wonder what Christopher Hitchens would've made of the latest NDAA and Obama's agreement with it.

Cerberus

Aww.

Jez

i think i can predict.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Hey my country sucks too!

In different ways.

Kitḫ

19:01

It's not that bad.

Jez

@Cerberus yeah. stop getting more conservative!! :-(

Cerberus

@Jez Yeah does anyone know why on earth big O. didn't veto it?

Jez

@Cerberus sure. he supports it.

Cerberus

@Jez Yeah we're trying!

Kitḫ

@Cerberus Because despite what everyone seems to think, Obama's a centrist.

Cerberus

19:02

But Wilder will never get close to a majority, luckily.

Jez

@Kit ahem. bullshit.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Oh, I know. But is this new law centrist?

Jez

@Kit well, unless we're just randomly defining 'centrist'

Cerberus

It seemed extremist to me, but perhaps that is an outsider's perspective.

Kitḫ

My eyes don't need this kind of exercise.

Jez

19:02

in which case, yeah, he's a centrist, hitler was a centrist, Mao was a centrist, etc.

Kitḫ

Oh please.

Cerberus

@Jez Nonsense.

Kitḫ

That's just stupid.

Cerberus

Jez, you are the extremist here.

Jez

well you've got to admit that word has very little meaning.

Cerberus

19:03

Taking extreme view points.

Kitḫ

Obama is more moderate than Dubya.

Cerberus

It means in the centre of the current political spectrum in one's country.

Jez

'centrist' just means that you're in the centre of the political mainstream around you. if that mainstream is insane, you're insane.

Cerberus

Obama is that, more or less, though he is probably a bit to the left of the centre.

Jez

@Kit and yet dubya didn't sign the latest NDAA, or agree to SOPA.

Cerberus

19:04

@Jez Sure. But neither Hitler nor Mao were that.

Kitḫ

Gosh, of course not. He's not in power anymore.

Cerberus

@Jez I really wonder why Obama won't veto either.

I would not have been surprised if Bush had let those bills pass.

Kitḫ

@Cerberus It's a concession to the Rs.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ But why make such huge concessions?

JSBᾶngs

because Obama is not actually notably more leftist than Dubya on security issues

Cerberus

19:05

@JSBᾶngs Apparently not; and that is what surprises me.

Kitḫ

Tru dat, @JSB.

JSBᾶngs

the expectations of the left that Obama was the second coming of Ghandi were completely unrealistic from the start

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs Sure; but is vetoing these bills so much to expect?

Both would be extreme, extreme right here.

JSBᾶngs

i don't even think that the Rs are making Obama do this stuff. have they even made any major noise about it?

all of the GOP energy is spent protecting tax cuts these days

Cerberus

Not that I know.

Jez

19:07

watch the latest The Young Turks reports.

they tell it as it is

Cerberus

Hey I keep wondering what their background is.

They usually seem reasonable people.

Jez

Obama is, at heart, rather tyrannical. he wants the power to just detain citizens on a whim and has carried out a propoganda campaign to make it look like he is 'reluctantly' agreeing to it

Kitḫ

Well, I don't disagree with NDAA.

Cerberus

Huh?

It is presented as an extremist military law here.

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus don't believe anything you hear on TV/radio/whatever

Cerberus

19:10

The army can detain and try people without an official civilian prsecution.

Kitḫ

Well, given that it has been enacted for the last 49 years, I think it's probably not that evil.

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs We have some good reporters here, and the text of the bill is public.

Jez

@Kit you do know it changes from year to year

@Kit you might as well say that they enact laws every year so no laws are that evil

Kitḫ

@Jez Yes, I am well aware.

Cerberus

@Kitḫ Public opinion here is that America tortures prisoners, and criminals will not be extradited to America in many cases, because Dutch judges consider the American justice system unfair for certain crimes.

Notably drugs and terrorism, and anything that one could get sentenced to death for.

Kitḫ

19:12

> Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.

Jez

in the United States

Kitḫ

We may torture detainees, but not prisoners.

Jez

not outside.

Kitḫ

So what do I care about outside?

Jez

so, don't go on holiday outside the US.

Cerberus

19:13

Well, I can judge this bill myself; I'd need to read it all and know more about the system.

Kitḫ

I don't care if the US detains you indefinitely.

Cerberus

But the papers here say that even the American army was against it, or at least many senior people in it.

JSBᾶngs

well, i care that the US not detain Jez indefinitely

Jez

troll Kit is trolly

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs Aww.

JSBᾶngs

19:14

but i still doubt that this is actually the end of the world

Kitḫ

@Jez Outside the US is arguably outside our jurisdiction, nitwit.

Cerberus

It probably won't be.

Jez

@Kit this act says they can get you arrested, bring you home, and that section applies to you because you were not arrested in the US

Cerberus

But what the CIA and the army are allowed to do in secret prisons in Europe and Cuba is, I think, close to the end of the world.

Well, I'm glad I live in Europe and close to Germany.

Jez

@Cerberus im kind of glad i live in Europe and not the US too, now.

Cerberus

19:17

Though of course the practical consequences for most ordinary people will be slight, for now.

Jez

i wonder how much Canada will be dragged into this kind of shit.

Kitḫ

@Jez shrugs only if Obama says so, otherwise not.

Cerberus

@Jez Yeah, but I'd rather live on this side of the Channel!

Jez

@Kit or maybe Santorum, if he's next.

JSBᾶngs

lol. Santorum has no chance at all.

Kitḫ

19:18

Lol.

Jez

not that Obama is particularly sensible. he thinks locking people up for possessing weed is just fine

Kitḫ

You said santorum.

JSBᾶngs

i'm calling it now: 2012 will be Obama v. Romney, and Obama will win by 6 points

Cerberus

@Jez I think Canada's PM is quite a right-winger, isn't he?

Jez

then i returned to Obama

@Cerberus at the moment, alas, yes

Cerberus

19:18

@JSBᾶngs I agree.

Kitḫ

What's the spread on the election @JSB?

Jez

@Cerberus canada could be effectively annexed as part of the US, in law

JSBᾶngs

@Kitḫ what do you mean?

should we start a pool?

Kitḫ

Yeah, let's.

Cerberus

@Jez Ehh...

Kitḫ

19:19

Anyway, I think there's no reason to get panties knotted over it.

Jez

well, if they're ok with breaking the constitution and putting military to work on the government's whim INSIDE the US, why not in canada?

canada doesnt really have the force to resist them

Kitḫ

Canada is useless.

Why would we want Canada?

JSBᾶngs

Canada is adorable and full of moose!

Matt Эллен

don't they have polar bear mounted cavalry robots 10000 strong?

JSBᾶngs

that's reason enough to annex it

Cerberus

19:20

By the way, the first thing that should change is that candidates should not be allowed to take any money from third parties in their campaigns over a certain (low) limit, say € 1 million.

Jez

@JSBngs and mousse

Kitḫ

They are adorable, but I don't want to support them!

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus we already have a law to that effect. what happens is that third parties run ads and events for a particular candidate without ever giving them money

Kitḫ

@Cerberus THat's a nice thought, but there are so many ways around it.

Jez

@Cerberus 1 million? are you kidding? in the UK they're suggesting £10k, and I think that's too high.

Kitḫ

19:21

Like JSB said.

Jez

@JSBngs that's the ruling where the supreme court said that money was speech?

JSBᾶngs

@Jez that's only part of it

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs Well, there is no stopping that. But then how come it works here?

I don't know the details.

Jez

@JSBngs and im not sure what you mean there anyway. companies give politicians ENORMOUS donations.

Kitḫ

@Cerberus Why do you think it doesn't work here?

Cerberus

19:22

Oops doorbell, bye!

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus what works there?

Jez

opensecrets.org

@JSBngs presumably campaign finance limits

@Kitḫ why do we think campaign finance limits don't work in a country where the president is looking to raise $1bn in private donations next election cycle?

Kitḫ

@Jez Yeah, sure.

What's wrong with that?

Jez

people donating large amounts of money will infuence/corrupt politicians.

i don't want a system with financially influenced/corrupted politicians.

Kitḫ

So how else should the campaigns be financed?

And does that mean you are OK with $1bn from 300 million donors?

Jez

19:27

yes. but it won't be that.

Kitḫ

Because the total amount raised really doesn't mean anything. The limits are on the individual donations.

Jez

there should be a low limit on individual donations, companies should not be allowed to donate, and most funding should come from taxation.

Kitḫ

So who cares about the total, unless you think he's going to have one person donate that much?

Jez

if they can't spend shitloads on TV ads, that's a feature, not a bug.

i think he's going to have a few people and companies donate most of it.

Kitḫ

I don't want to finance political campaigns.

Jez

19:28

well, i disagree with you. the alternative sucks far more.

Kitḫ

Disagree all you like. You can't do anything about it anyway.

Jez

nor can you, or anyone without vast amounts of money.

Kitḫ

I can, and have done, far more to affect American legislation that you ever have or ever will.

And I am poor as dirt.

So that is why I feel that you, and people like you who just want to sit on their porch and throw stones, are full of shit.

Jez

what have you done? heh.

Kitḫ

Well, we blocked a bill that would tax child care providers.

And several others that would have impinged on workers' rights to organize.

I am pretty sleepy right now, but I can look up the details for you later.

What have you done?

Oh right, also passed legislation to provide tax credits to citizens who are paying student loans from state universities and trade schools.

Jez

19:36

who is 'we'?

Kitḫ

My husband and I and others.

Some unions, some other grassroots organizations.

None of us is anywhere close to the 1%.

But you still haven't told me what you've done.

Jez

why do you care about stuff outside the US?

Kitḫ

I don't.

But all I've heard you do is bitch.

Jez

you sure it isn't just that all you've heard is "bitch"?

Kitḫ

I'm sorry. Did I misread somewhere? All I see are questions that deflect the one I asked.

Jez

19:42

i don't need to deflect an imbecilic, rhetorical question

i just watch it squelch on the floor

Kitḫ

It's not rhetorical. It's a simple question. Why can't you answer it?

Jez

read above.

Kitḫ

Pansy.

Mahnax

@Jez You asked it of her in the first place.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Anybody here?

Kitḫ

19:51

Hi @Sonic!

Mahnax

@SonicTheHedgehog Oh hello!

Matt Эллен

EL&U is out right now, please come back later. this is an automated message

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Kit Hey

Mahnax

@MattЭллен Thanks Matt.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Mahnax Yo.

Mahnax

19:52

@SonicTheHedgehog When do you go back to school?

Sonic The Hedgehog

Whats wrong with ELU lately?

@Mah Already did.

Matt Эллен

not enough chocolate sprinkles?

Kitḫ

Kit's grumpy?

Sonic The Hedgehog

@MAtt I thought it WAS automated message?!

Mahnax

@SonicTheHedgehog Oh, then you're at it right now?

Sonic The Hedgehog

19:53

@Kit why?

@Mah just came back.

Kitḫ

@SonicTheHedgehog Stuff and/or things. Remains to evaluated.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Kit Boss mean to you?

Matt Эллен

@SonicTheHedgehog now is later :D

Kitḫ

@SonicTheHedgehog No.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Kit I'll be sure to send him ghost or two...

Kitḫ

19:54

@SonicTheHedgehog Aw, thanks.

Sonic The Hedgehog

@Matt splutters

So, any interesting stories lately?

Mahnax

@SonicTheHedgehog Well, if you scroll up a little...

Sonic The Hedgehog

I'm no gossiper, but I'm bored...

Kitḫ

Let's play a game!

Matt Эллен

yay!

Sonic The Hedgehog

19:56

ahh, just saw the news about Obama

Kitḫ

What shall we play?

Matt Эллен

what game?

Sonic The Hedgehog

He broke his promise I think?

Let me get a link...

No, not another minute mysteries.

Kitḫ

What? Politicians breaking promises? That never happens.

Matt Эллен

Looks like four for Russian roulette

Sonic The Hedgehog

19:56

I had nightmares last night.

Matt Эллен

alas I only have one bullet

Kitḫ

@MattЭллен It's better with six.

Mahnax

Oh, I'm in for a game.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Robusto just HAD to bring up pictures of Twin headed Taiwanese.

Kitḫ

Yeah, that was creepy.

Sonic The Hedgehog

19:57

I had a nightmare, it was invasion of Siamses twins.

Mahnax

@Kitḫ Because I'm in it!

Sonic The Hedgehog

Couldn't go to sleep until 4:00 AM.

I blame him for me sleeping in at Science class.

Kitḫ

@Mahnax Well, Canada is nice, but I don't feel the need to possess it.

Sonic The Hedgehog

:(

Russian Roulette?

Kitḫ

I really like what they've done with their gays.

Sonic The Hedgehog

19:58

Just read about it yesterday...

Mahnax

@Kitḫ We do have adorable moose though.

Matt Эллен

where the board spins you!

Sonic The Hedgehog

So, what do you do, spin clips around, chuck it into pistol, and shoot?

Nice.

Kitḫ

@Mahnax And let's not forget the noble beaver.

@SonicTheHedgehog No, no. You need a revolver.

Sonic The Hedgehog

In Soviet Russia, Russian Roulette Spins YOU.

Kitḫ

19:59

rolls eyes

Matt Эллен

@SonicTheHedgehog normally you use a six shooter revolver, put one bullet in it and spin the chamber

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