English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Kitḫ

15:00

I liked 4 - 6 best.

Matt Эллен

I like to be taken on an adventure, so I don't necessarily notice if something doesn't quite make sense

and then I read reviews and such and all the plotholes are revealed

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ This may be heresy. But every time I read LotR I like it a tiny bit less.

Kitḫ

The holes aren't that bad. It's just some of that "hmm" upon further reflection kind of stuff.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I think I reached my maximum likingness of LotR and can only go downhill from here.

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I don't want to know. I have read them exactly twice, and will read them once more with my kids. Other than that, I don't want to risk my enduring faith that I love them (the books).

aedia λ

15:01

@MattЭллен I don't mind plotholes as much as deus ex machina or things that are just really inconsistent with the rest of the story.

Matt Эллен

Like, why does no one speak in Hutt to Jaba the Hutt?

Kitḫ

Right. Like that.

aedia λ

They're not a corpulent blob?

Oh it was a rhetorical question.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен And how do so many alien species understand other languages without any ability at all to speak those languages.

aedia λ

Sorry. Caffeine levels not yet restored to normal.

Kitḫ

15:03

But we weren't talking about Star Wars. Oh, I am so confused.

Matt Эллен

@aediaλ Yeah, inconsistency would ruin the story, I think. I don't mind a bit of deus ex machina now and again, or magufins, so long as there's good reason

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@aediaλ Harry Potter involves a fair amount of deus ex machina in a way. Lots of times harry succeeds because someone was there to help him.

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 my mind boggles!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ There's lots to love about the books. But after you've read them a few times you start finding flaws.

Kitḫ

She does a pretty good job of introducing something that will be used later without making it exceptionally obvious.

aedia λ

15:03

@MattЭллен Magufins?

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Lalalala! Not listening!

Matt Эллен

@Kitḫ why does not one speak pot to Harry the potter?

@aediaλ that one item that solves all the problems instantly

probably misspelled it

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ Ok I won't point them out. But I think you'll notice them when you read the books, especially considering that the movies actually fixed a few flaws when they made changes (they introduced other flaws though, so... pfft)

Matt Эллен

oh, @aedia, MacGuffin

Kitḫ

But sometimes, they will be studying Charms, and I'll think, "I wonder what problem they will have that will require them to need Polyjuice Potion."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:05

@MattЭллен isn't a macguffin an item that is important to the story for no reason other than "it's important to the story"?

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 yes

that sort of thing

aedia λ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Hmm. Yeah. I don't mind that when it's a little hidden, or it's like, the story is about teamwork so it makes sense, or it's just that the hero can't die so they still get into scrapes but duh, they can't die or it would end the story...

"plot coupon" hahaha

Kitḫ

One of the things I like about Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is that he sort of tackles these things head on.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ My problem is that she introduces an extremely world-changing concept like polyjuice potion and never deals with any of the ramifications. Imagine if you could transform your body into another body! People would transform into their sexual partners to try new sexual acts, or get new perspectives. crimes would be committed all the time. There'd need to be many layers of defence throughout wizard society for this sort of thing. Yet, there isn't. It's just a complicated potion, that's all.

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes. I agree. That's actually what I was getting at with HP: MoR.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:08

@Kitḫ heheh

Kitḫ

The first really funny scene is in the first chapter where he asks Professor McGonagall to prove that magic exists.

She transforms into a cat and it blows his mind.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Sadly Harry isn't really the sort to ask that kind of question, it's more of a Hermione question.

Kitḫ

"How is this possible? How can your matter fit into cat size matter? How can your brain still work if it is a cat brain?" etc

@MrShinyandNew安宇 In that book, he is sorted into Ravenclaw.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ see? another inconsistency. Hermione should have been in Ravenclaw.

Actually the books should have been about Hermione from start to finish.

Kitḫ

Yeah, no kidding.

In HP:MoR, she sits, they put the hat on her and it shouts "Ravenclaw!" immediately.

It's sort of a "well, duh!"

Also, he doesn't bother with befriending Ron.

I'm not much into fan fiction, but it's actually a pretty fun read. fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/…

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:14

@Kitḫ wait this is an actual thing!?

Kitḫ

> Petunia bit her lip. "I can't just tell you. You'll think I'm -" She swallowed. "Listen. Michael. I wasn't - always like this -" She gestured at herself, as though to indicate her lithe form. "Lily did this. Because I - because I begged her. For years, I begged her. Lily had always been prettier than me, and I'd... been mean to her, because of that, and then she got magic, can you imagine how I felt? And I begged her to use some of that magic on me so that I could be pretty too, even if I couldn't have her magic, at least I could be pretty."

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh, yes. It's great.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

sigh when fanfic eclipses the original fic... sigh.

aedia λ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes!

Kitḫ

I really enjoyed reading it, but it made me think of the whole series differently.

It will be funnier if you have read the books, but there is plenty there that describes something in a way that points out that it is ridiculous to gloss over this point.

Also, he develops Minerva McGonagall's character more. I really like her, and I like her even better in this book.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I don't know if I want to read it and make the whole series even more ridiculous.

Kitḫ

15:19

Oh, man, it will make you howl with laughter.

Just read the first chapter.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I think it would be a better story if it were centered around Hermione and if one of her challenges was to re-rehabilitate Harry after years of crushing abuse by his foster parents

aedia λ

We should write that.

Kitḫ

Well, the first thing is that instead of those foster parents, he is raised by scientists.

Mahnax

I have never read, nor do I intend to read, Harry Potter.

Kitḫ

Harry actually decides to try to win over Draco.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:21

heheh: "according to Mum, there was a whole magical world out there. How could anyone keep something like that a secret? More magic? That seemed like a rather suspicious sort of excuse."

Matt Эллен

:D

Kitḫ

The first one that got me was from the quotation above: "I thought to myself, what kind of parent names their child Dudley Dursley?"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mahnax oh, don't be like that. It's not all bad. I consider myself rational and I hate plot holes as much as Jasper likes correcting spelling. But I still recommend people read HP. It's fun, and overall a passing grade.

Matt Эллен

@Mahnax You don't intend to, but it'll happen by accident

Mahnax

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Mrrrrrf.

It just doesn't interest me.

I'm not saying it's bad, by any means.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:25

@Mahnax wait, you're still in high school, right? Yeah maybe you're not mature enough yet to have the perspective to appreciate it. ;)

Matt Эллен

you'll awake one chilly July morning with a copy of Harry Potter and the Thing of Thing in hands, wondering how it got there and scarier still, what appens next

3

Kitḫ

Here's the one I was referring to earlier that made me almost pee my pants:

"You turned into a cat! A SMALL cat! You violated Conservation of Energy! That's not just an arbitrary rule, it's implied by the form of the quantum Hamiltonian! Rejecting it destroys unitarity and then you get FTL signaling! And cats are COMPLICATED! A human mind can't just visualize a whole cat's anatomy and, and all the cat biochemistry, and what about the neurology? How can you go on thinking using a cat-sized brain?"

aedia λ

I was happy when the word putative first showed up but then the other rationalthinkythings that keep popping in are just a little jarring. It's like someone was like "let's cleverly work falsification into a story! it will be a great tutorial!"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен we don't have chilly mornings in July

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 that's what makes it scarier!

Mahnax

15:25

@MattЭллен hides under blanket

Kitḫ

@aediaλ I should've mentioned it was written by a rationalist.

Matt Эллен

Why is it cold in July?!

Kitḫ

It's chilly because it is scary!

Mahnax

Wait, there are no blankets in Computing Science. hides under pile of boring JavaScript assignments

Kitḫ

Here, you can use the hidey-sack.

Matt Эллен

15:27

:D

Mahnax

@Kitḫ Why thank you.

Kitḫ

Damn, mtg. Later.

Read it! It's funny!

Matt Эллен

cya @Kit :)

Mahnax

@Kitḫ Bye!

aedia λ

@Kitḫ I figured that out but I'm not sure if I can ignore it. Maybe. I do want to read it. It's not as if I should, you know, be doing w*^% or something today...

@Kitḫ Have... fun?

Kitḫ

15:29

@aediaλ Don't ignore it. It's intentional. And it's part of the humor!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kitḫ It's funny so far.

I'm just at the part where McGonnagal turns into a cat

aedia λ

@Kitḫ Okay. Not ignore, then. Enjoy properly as part of the story rather than having it seem jarring. I mean, I do like it so far; we were just talking about story-disruptions and this is a big'un.

Okay, okay, it's gotten a lot better already.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:56

heheh, harry analyzing the wizarding economy in terms of the price of gold vs silver

> On the other hand, one competent hedge fundie could probably own the whole wizarding world within a week. Harry filed away this notion in case he ever ran out of money, or had a week free.

Kitḫ

16:11

See? See? It's good, huh?

Mahnax

Oooh, 66 rep til I can vote to close.

@Kitḫ Kiamlaluno knows Italian.

Matt Эллен

@Mahnax are you ready for the responsibility?

you'll be tidying up the site with the rest of us!

Mahnax

@MattЭллен Yes. My flag weight is decent, if I do say so myself.

551.1191

aedia λ

> "The rules seem sorta consistent but they don't mean anything! I'm not even going to ask how a pouch ends up with voice recognition and natural language understanding when the best Artificial Intelligence programmers can't get the fastest supercomputers to do it after thirty-five years of hard work," Harry gasped for breath, "but what is going on?"

Matt Эллен

@Mahnax that's a pretty good weight

Mahnax

16:20

@MattЭллен I would say so.

I have two declined flags; one was an accident, the other is debatable.

Matt Эллен

I have 2 declined as well.

Mahnax

@MattЭллен Hmm. Two isn't that bad.

Matt Эллен

yeah, it's natural. Mods and 10K+ users won't agree with us all the time

that's why there're flags

Kitḫ

Crap. What was I doing?

Matt Эллен

juggling chain saws?

fixing a DB issue?

Mahnax

16:27

@Kitḫ W-rk? Nah, that can't be it.

Matt Эллен

reading Harry Potter fanfiction?

Mahnax

Singing?

Tracking a goose?

Donut

Hello.

Kitḫ

@MattЭллен I mentioned I had a bit of a reading problem, didn't I?

Mahnax

Hi @Donut.

Kitḫ

16:27

Hi @Donut.

Donut

I am reading about Present Perfect Continous and I saw this example:

Matt Эллен

@Kitḫ yessum

Mahnax

@Donut What brings you to our pit of insanity?

Kitḫ

@Mahnax shh He's telling us.

Matt Эллен

@Kitḫ adding in "add student" links to hybrid accounts?

Mahnax

16:28

@Kitḫ Oh, didn't notice.

Kitḫ

@MattЭллен Someone has been paying attention. I did that yesterday though.

Mahnax

@MattЭллен That's enough.

Kitḫ

Took me ten seconds.

@Donut Please continue.

Donut

Who's been driving my car?! What's the difference between this sentence and Who drove my car?

Kitḫ

Good question.

Mahnax

16:29

@Donut Heh. The first implies that someone has been doing it recently, IMO.

Whereas the second could mean anytime.

Kitḫ

Who has been driving my car? could also be a repeated, indefinite action.

Donut

This makes sense.

Kitḫ

Who drove my car? indicates one specific instance of the car being driven.

Mahnax

@Kitḫ True.

Donut

Thanks @Kitḫ

Kitḫ

16:31

Is that enough? Did that help?

aedia λ

@Donut Depending on the context, there might be little difference. If one morning I wake up and my car is parked poorly in the driveway and the fender is hanging off, I might yell either of these loudly. On the other hand, suppose I have just come back from a week of vacation and see my car in that state. I might be a little more likely to use the first one ("been driving") because I think someone has been using my car multiple times.

Donut

Yes, I was just curious in the difference.

Mahnax

@Donut It's a good question.

Hi @jcolebrand.

aedia λ

(As Kit says, a repeated, indefinite action - I'm not sure that they just drove the car once, so I'll say they've been driving it rather than that they drove it.)

Kitḫ

I would probably use it if I wasn't sure when it had been driven as well.

Who drove my car last night?

versus

Who has been driving my car this week?

aedia λ

16:34

Who has been drinking all my coffee?

Kitḫ

Could be multiple drivers there as well, I suppose.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

In fact to my ears "*who has been driving my car last night?" would be ungrammatical

aedia λ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Good point.

Donut

@aediaλ I am not advanced, and this was hard to understand, but I did it!

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 what about "who has been driving my car these past nights?"

aedia λ

16:41

@MattЭллен Hmm. ? for me. Probably accept but not utter, I guess? "Who-all's been drivin' my car these pas' few nights?" I think that's closer to what I would actually say if I had to use "past nights" somehow. And if I had a car.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Kit, what deck do you have on defense? Mine sucks in the current war.

Kitḫ

@RegDwightѬſ道 Supelegore Redux

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Do elaborate.

Kitḫ

It shouldn't work, but seems to.

I'll tell you about it in the club.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

K.

Matt Эллен

16:43

@aediaλ yes, I suppose it's not a good example. Not particularly idiomatic

Kitḫ

"Who has been driving my car the last few nights?"

Matt Эллен

yes, @Kit, that's a better example

Kitḫ

"Who has been eating my porridge?"

Mahnax

@Kitḫ Ahh!

Matt Эллен

goldy fox and the three hares

Kitḫ

16:47

"Someone has been sleeping in my bed."

RegDwight Ѭſ道

You misspelled everyone.

Kitḫ

Hey!

Not everyone.

Matt Эллен

"Someone's been sleeping in my bed, and they're eating my porridge"

Kitḫ

Just most everyone.

Matt Эллен

yep! not me

RegDwight Ѭſ道

16:48

Okay okay. Everyone except Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich.

And Matt.

Matt Эллен

I'm in a select group

Kitḫ

giggle

RegDwight Ѭſ道

You should be like proud and stuff.

Kitḫ

I'm pretty sure you haven't been in my bed either, owl.

And I know you have not eaten my porridge.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

That's what they all say.

Matt Эллен

16:50

sounds like a trend

Mahnax

I haven't been in her bed.

But then again, I'm a Matt, so I suppose that was already said.

Matt Эллен

:D

Donut

Someone slept in my bed <- I don't know when

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Owls are smart, dammit.

Donut

Someone's been sleeping in my bed <- recently

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

16:50

@MattЭллен I think that works and my suspicion is that it depends on the length of time of the ongoing event vs the timeframe you anchor it to. "last night" is more like a point of time, and so doesn't contain ongoing events, or maybe driving a car takes a long time relative to "last night" and so the event doesn't fit in the container (grammatically).

Donut

Am I right?

Mahnax

@Donut Joo. Well, somewhat.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Donut more like you don't SAY when

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Yeah, a ~~gentleman~~ gentledonut never tells.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Donut yes, the implication is that the sleeping was or is on-going

Kitḫ

16:51

@Mahnax You are a minor.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Better than c minor.

Donut

Thank for help again. :)

RegDwight Ѭſ道

And don't get me started on d sharp minor.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 pff, that's just e-flat

Kitḫ

@RegDwightѬſ道 thwack

RegDwight Ѭſ道

16:53

@MrShinyandNew安宇 you mean e-appartment?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 only if I'm speaking merkin

Mahnax

@Kitḫ Indeed.

Kitḫ

thwacks all around

Mahnax

rubs head

Bye all!

Kitḫ

Later!

Matt Эллен

16:54

cya @Mahnax

I'm off too

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Kit apotheosis!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Katharsis!

Kitḫ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 How did you—?

Wait. What?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Don't tell me you forgot our safe word!

Kitḫ

OMG. LOL

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

16:56

Aug 19 at 20:21, by KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The safe word is apotheosis.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

That's a god-awful misspelling of ananas.

Kitḫ

That's also one of my master passwords, which I just at that exact moment happened to be typing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 no, no, that's YOUR safe word

Kitḫ

It made my brain hurt.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 No word is safe from me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

16:57

@RegDwightѬſ道 It's not the word that's supposed to be safe

@Kitḫ teehee

Kitḫ

Oh, but in case anyone is trying to hack my system, I was lying just then.

2

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 And yet, "safe" is supposed to be a word.

Kitḫ

My master password is always Password123.

Or god.

or admin.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Kitḫ Psst, I'll let you in on a secret: nobody cares about your system. Not even your project lead.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 well, any grunt or sound can be worded.

@Kitḫ oooh: admingod1234

that's my new password

RegDwight Ѭſ道

16:59

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Even &$#§"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 is that a grunt or sound?

please provide IPA

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Of course!

It's both!

@MrShinyandNew安宇 No prob.

Feb 7 at 16:13, by Kosmonaut

ʕʔ

Kitḫ

@RegDwightѬſ道 psst not even me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 looks legit to me. Now all it needs is widespread acceptance.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Meh you keep changing the requirements.

You're like Kit's project lead.

Kitḫ

17:03

Only if they are all priority one and have always been priority one even if we didn't know they existed before just now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

what?! I'm no way like that! I acknowledge that you worded it. But what good is a word if nobody knows it?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Very.

The word is very good.

Hope that helps.

There are literally millions of words most people don't know.

For starters, 99% of the world's population don't know a single word of Dutch.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 but for each word there are many people who know them.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Cerberus is not many.

He is not even three.

Don't look at the heads.

It's a trap.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

well, I'm not counting dutch

everyone knows it's a dialect of english

RegDwight Ѭſ道

17:06

As if English needed yet another dialect.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

People like to say English is a Germanic language. I prefer to think of it as German being an Englishanic language.

whoops, gotta run

Kitḫ

17:19

Hey! My project lead's wife is joining our team. How nice.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Commute. Laters.

Cerberus

17:44

Hi!

@Kitḫ Very nice.

You can seduce her and gain influence upstairs.

Kitḫ

Oh barf.

I actually knew her first.

BTW, there is a close war. Want to help?

Cerberus

OK!

Though I'll probably lose.

Kitḫ

I am going to throw this whole server right out the window in a moment.

Cerberus

Sounds like a marvellous idea.

Kitḫ

It has decided to just change context on me randomly without any notice.

Cerberus

17:52

You must kill it.

Apparently it didn't understand the word "serve".

Spent. Ca. 250 behind.

Kitḫ

Food may help. BRB.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:44

>"So now I've got to find some way to kill an immortal Dark Wizard," Harry said, and sighed in frustration. "I really wish you had told me that before I started shopping."

Kitḫ

WTF? Where are you, husband?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I know, right?

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…