English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

15:00

Bolkestein, former leader of the oldest, liberal-conservative party has said he is in favour of legalizing all drugs.

Jez

liberal-conservative??

Cerberus

@JasperLoy He's just mad!

Jez

that's an oxymoron

Cerberus

@Jez Why?

It isn't here.

The liberals are the oldest party by far.

Jez

being a liberal is basically the opposite of being a conservative, by definition

Cerberus

15:01

Nah-uh!

aedia λ

@Cerberus Hi!

Jez

i dont really care if US political english has twisted normal language to idiotic meaning

Cerberus

If you're already a liberal country, preserving what you have is conservative.

user19161

@z7sg Plus one for existential crisis!

Cerberus

@aediaλ Heya!

aedia λ

15:01

@Jez Yours doesn't make any more sense.

Cerberus

@Jez Then how would you define conservative?

Jez

@Cerberus liberal is always defined as being relative to what you have now

Cerberus

I define it as "keeping things the way they are as much as possible".

Jez

so i'd say liberal/conservative are always opposites

Cerberus

@Jez I disagree. Liberal is defined relative to the political centre, not to some point in time.

Jez

15:03

@Cerberus being afraid (sometimes healthily) of change

Cerberus

@Jez Agreed.

z7sg Ѫ

@JasperLoy I should know I've had a few ;o)

user19161

@z7sgѪ Congrats on 5K!

Cerberus

Besides, no party is ever 100 % conservative or 100 % liberal (= no party wants to change absolutely nothing at all, and no party wants complete and utter anarchy).

z7sg Ѫ

@JasperLoy Oh yeah, WOOOO! :)

user19161

15:05

Oh dear, another political discussion...

user19161

I hate politics. Matt and I will take over the world soon and fix everything as mentioned.

Cerberus

Now, in the mid-19th century, liberals and conservatives were near-opposites.

You hate politics? In what sense?

I like discussing some aspects of politics.

user19161

A lot of things are discussed but nothing is done the way I think it should be. So over time I get sick and tired of it.

z7sg Ѫ

@Cerberus it's far from clear to me how 'liberalism' is defined. it seems that different people choose to define it as totally opposite things.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Yeah I sort of feel that way too.

user19161

15:09

@Cerberus Good. Now you can join Matt and me to rule the world.

Cerberus

@z7sgѪ Well, perhaps they do; but the "right" definition would seem to be somewhere in the neighbourhood of "striving after freedom for citizens in their relation to the state", because the word is a political term.

Of course there are various areas where you can be freer or less free from interference by the state.

But then "liberal" should be modified by an adverb, like "economically liberal", or even more specific modifiers.

Alenanno

The political talk killed this chat.

:D

JSBᾶngs

"liberal" has two different definitions. there is "supporting liberty as the primary concern and goal of politics" (which is opposed to authoritarian or statist) and "supporting human progress and engineered solutions to human, political problems" (which is opposed to conservative or traditional)

the latter definition sometimes contradicts the former

aedia λ

what is love? ooohoo ooohoo baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more, yeaahaa ooohooo what is love baby don't hurt me don't hurt me no more what is love baby don't hurt me don't hurt me no more woohahoahoa uh huh

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs No offence, but how does the latter definition make sense? It seems only vaguely related to liberalism. I know it is often heard in America, but I've always thought it was an uneducated definition.

JSBᾶngs

15:24

in the US, at least, hard-core people in the first camp tend to call themselves libertarian, which hard-core people in the latter camp tend to call themselves progressive. in practice the two groups overlap a lot, but they also hate each other at the edges, since progressives view libertarians as reactionary and libertarians view progressives as statist

Cerberus

@aediaλ bites Aedia softly in the ear

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus i don't know how the latter definition makes sense. perhaps it doesn't

user19161

@aediaλ I thought that was Mr Shiny's song!

Alenanno

I've already heard the latter definition, honestly

JSBᾶngs

you could also define the second group as merely "left of center", but that of course requires you to define "left" ...

Alenanno

15:25

but maybe it's just too general

JSBᾶngs

@Alenanno, does it make any more sense if we describe liberalism as the marriage of libertarianism and progressivism?

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs If you're describing actual groups of people instead of political perspectives, wouldn't it be better to use a two-dimensional spectrum? More v. less power to the state, more v. less distribution of wealth?

aedia λ

@Cerberus shakes head thank you! one moment ago I was reading the transcript and then I was forty minutes into What Is Love...

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus more dimensions is always better. i like the three-dimensional plot described... let me find it

aedia λ

@JasperLoy link...there was... in transcript... don't click...

Cerberus

15:27

@JSBᾶngs I think left-wing is a far better term.

aedia λ

shakes head violently again

user19161

@Cerberus That is too much for my eyes!

Cerberus

@aediaλ licks ear instead

Oops.

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus theamericanscene.com/2010/04/26/…. he proposes three dimensions, which he labels left/right, conservative/liberal, and progressive/reactionary

Cerberus

It's just what dogs do.

user19161

15:28

@Cerberus I think I should leave this room.

JSBᾶngs

by his scheme i'm a left-wing conservative reactionary, which i find a pleasingly counterintuitive combination of labels. it also explains why i find so few people who agree with me

aedia λ

giggles

user19161

No giggling!

user19161

No biting and no licking either!

JSBᾶngs

anyway! off to meeting shortly. i'll catch up with you all later

user19161

15:30

@JSBᾶngs Have a good day!

Alenanno

@JSBngs I'm not sure honestly, also because I was thinking that maybe I heard "liberal" only used by the right side

See you!

aedia λ

@JSBᾶngs Have fun!

@JasperLoy nips at your heels

user19161

I think you are all crazy!

Alenanno

Hey, I wasn't licking or kissing! XD

user19161

I won't partake of the licking and kissing, in case people think I'm not serious about stuff I say here. But you guys enjoy it if you want!

Alenanno

15:35

partake?

looks up the dictionary

ah ok

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs Hmm I'm not very happy with the use of "conservative" in that article. They seem to use it for what I'd simply call "authoritarian". When properly used, conservative just means what it means: preserving the status quo, whether it be liberal or authoritarian or something in between. It operates on the same dimension as reactionary and progressive.

user19161

@Alenanno oxfordadvancedlearnersdictionary.com/dictionary/partake

Alenanno

Already found it

:D

Cerberus

Gotta go, later!

Alenanno

Later, 3-headed dog!

user19161

15:36

@Cerberus Have a nice day!

aedia λ

@Cerberus Hasta pronto!

Alenanno

@aedia Add this ¡

:D

aedia λ

@Alenanno ¡Gracias! ;)

Alenanno

De nada :P

Gotta go, see y'all

aedia λ

@Alenanno Laterz!

user19161

15:57

Oh dear, sb downvoted my question on another site. tries to calm down

aedia λ

@JasperLoy Awwh! I'm sure it was a good question.

user19161

@aediaλ Not really. But a downvote means it is bad.

aedia λ

Perhaps there is something you can do to make it clearer, if you give yourself time to consider how?

user19161

But anyway downvotes are natural. I've gotten used to them already.

aedia λ

It's often hard to express yourself clearly, even if things might be obvious in your head. You can be great at identifying examples of clear writing and still be bad at doing it yourself.

I'm not trying to say that's how you are; I mean that's what happens to me.

user19161

16:01

Anyway I now remember that your time zone is mine minus 12 hours, same as sim's.

user19161

@aediaλ But you are a unicorn!

aedia λ

@JasperLoy Well, it will take me thousands of years more to be perfect ;)

user19161

@aediaλ Well, I never will be perfect!

user19161

We can try to approach it asymptotically though...

user19161

Hello @matt! Your avatar looks blur today, maybe cos I'm on OpenSuse now.

aedia λ

16:05

@JasperLoy @simchona this is true, you've rejoined us on the east coast for school?

user19161

@aediaλ Don't you know that everything I say is true?

Matt Ellen Д

@JasperLoy Possibly, or your browser has been drinking again!

user19161

@MattEllenД I didn't see you the past few days. Will switch to Ubuntu in a while. Debian flash keeps freezing.

user19161

So I can't watch my Japanese dramas.

Matt Ellen Д

I've been not here. I popped in for a moment last night, but no one was around
It's annoying when OSs don't work how we'd like.

aedia λ

16:13

@JasperLoy Haha, I'm not doubting you. It was a New Yorker-style "this is true?" conversational transition. Like, " 'is is tru, wut Jaspuh sez, yoah moved back owut heah?"

simchona

This must be a dupe

0

Q: Apostrophe with names (Moses)

Why is the possessive form of Moses—as in Moses' followers—formed by only adding an ' onto the end? Is it because he is an historical, biblical figure, or is it because his name ends in an ez sound?

user19161

Interesting story. My best friend always says "right, right" when he listens to me. And I always say "true, true" when I listen to him. So he said that I am always right and he is always true.

aedia λ

@simchona maybe of english.stackexchange.com/questions/2964/… or english.stackexchange.com/questions/4177/… ?

I could have sworn we had one for Jesus's but maybe I'm just thinking of this Wiktionary entry en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Jesus%27#Usage_notes

simchona

I voted an included this

18

Q: What is the correct possessive for nouns ending in s?

What is the possessive of a noun ending in s? The boys' books. ? The boss' car.

grammar possessive

And yes, I'm on the east coast now

JSBᾶngs

@simchona totally a dup

BTW, linguistics.se is now at 92%. woo!

aedia λ

16:19

Yay!

user19161

I wonder what will happen to EL when ling comes up.

Matt Ellen Д

It will only get questions asking to name the states of America in a British accent

user19161

Then it's time to pack our bags.

user19161

3

Q: Is it true that if you die in your dream, you die in real life?

This is the premise of many stories/tv shows/movies. And I hear it constantly in old shows from the 90's. Is this true or based off any research? When I look back at my own dreams, I don't think I've ever actually died in any of them. Especially the ones where I'm falling. I always wake up righ...

dreaming

user19161

This is too amazing.

aedia λ

16:55

@JasperLoy sits here dumbfounded

@Theta30 I finally skimmed the transcript well enough to realize who you are :)

@Theta30 Does your new icon have better symmetries?

Cerberus

I posted a shameless advertisement for Linguistics on French Meta yesterday.

Theta30

@aediaλ oh good;i think i had it before

Cerberus

By the way, @Aed, that link of yours to the page explaining complex numbers was great. It has other good explanations too.

aedia λ

@Cerberus It was betterexplained.com that I sent you, right? I love that site. I could spend all day there.

2

Cerberus

Yup!

aedia λ

17:10

►

Funnily enough, my teetotaler friend introduced me to this band.

Cerberus

Haha.

Is this video a subtle hint?

I gotta get too pissed to miss you, haha.

aedia λ

I thought the lyrics were fabulous. And it seemed to follow naturally after messing up my mind with that What Is Love loop.

Cerberus

Happy, orderly people are just so boring.

Well, at least they have to have some sort of an edge.

z7sg Ѫ

Is this question from a troll account anyway? Why would you call yourself AN Other?

2

Q: Phrase and word-order meaning

I know that "only" and "just" and word-order are oft-mentioned topics on here, but word-order for phrases and meanings - don't both of these mean different things? Here is an example of how word order in a sentence can change the meaning. These two sentences are from a geography site I'm develo...

word-order ambiguity

Cerberus

17:25

Yeah it's weird.

user19161

OK I am on Ubuntu again. Just reinstalled 11.04.

Cerberus

Congrats.

Wow, this Lifehacker post is very interesting. They're really making progress. lifehacker.com/5833817/…

simchona

OT:

0

Q: What could mean the term "cashing cost"?

In Marketing I saw a term being written as: Risk of increasing Cashing cost? What could Cashing cost means in this context?

american-english british-english

user19161

@simchona Done.

user19161

@Cerberus Trivial.

Cerberus

17:41

@JasperLoy No this really helped me. Now I know how to install a program on Windows.

KitΘδς

@aedia SQL help?

Cerberus

It shows the level Lifehacker has risen to.

Matt Ellen Д

risen or sunk?

user19161

@Cerberus You know, sometimes I have no idea what is a joke and what is not.

aedia λ

@KitΘδς Oh god, no, sorry. I will hold your coffee cup while you stick a wrench in the works, or whatever it is you do to make that stuff work. Databases are the one thing I stay far far away from.

KitΘδς

17:43

@aediaλ I thought you might say that. @MattEllen You know SQL, yeah?

Matt Ellen Д

I know SQL

user19161

@Cerberus We learnt complex numbers in high school.

Matt Ellen Д

I can try to help

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Sure you do! Do you really think I don't know how to install a program in Windows?

KitΘδς

@MattEllenД I am having an issue with decimals that is making me crazy.

Cerberus

17:44

@JasperLoy So did we, but it didn't stick. I never did anything with them later.

Matt Ellen Д

@KitΘδς OK.

Cerberus

@KitΘδς Crush them!

user19161

@Cerberus Well, I can't be sure of anything in The Incomprehensible Room!

Cerberus

Sure you can!

user19161

@Cerberus No I can't, though I wish I can.

KitΘδς

17:45

@MattEllenД I am pulling a decimal from a text file using a VB script, and inserting it into a SQL table using a stored procedure.

Wait, I think I might have figured it out.

Matt Ellen Д

with you so far

KitΘδς

Lemme see.

Matt Ellen Д

yay!

Cerberus

Think. How likely is it that I can't install a program in Windows? I am using Firefox, I am moderately intelligent. How likely is it that someone reading Lifehacker cannot?

Matt Ellen Д

12?

is it 12 likely?

user19161

17:47

@MattEllenД 12 what?

Matt Ellen Д

no, watt is for power

user19161

You are drunk!

Matt Ellen Д

I R sobre

user19161

drinks water

Matt Ellen Д

however, being too drunk to dream doesn't sound like a bad plan

user19161

17:49

@MattEllenД Why?

Matt Ellen Д

@JasperLoy I would like a full night's sleep

I kept waking up last night

user19161

@MattEllenД I see. I thought you were telling me to forget about my dreams, which I won't. You know what they are.

Matt Ellen Д

Hells no. I'd never tell people that

I was talking about me :)

I'm quite egocentric

I hope Kit's SQL problem is solved.

KitΘδς

Yay! @Matt thanks. As soon as I said "stored procedure," I realized that's where my problem was.

Matt Ellen Д

Excellent :)

what was it?

KitΘδς

17:52

I hadn't changed the data type in the sp.

Matt Ellen Д

oooooooooooooooooh

user19161

@MattEllenД The problem was not enough coffee in the morning.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy I just made coffee. Who wants some?

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 No thanks. I had too much coffee today. Water will do for now.

KitΘδς

I do!

aedia λ

17:55

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Me me me!

Matt Ellen Д

Not I

user19161

Strange that I just installed 11.04 when 11.10 is coming out next month.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

pours coffee ok it's ready.

don't wake the baby when you get it.

KitΘδς

MrShiny knows how to make the women come running.

user19161

The baby can have some coffee too.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

18:00

@JasperLoy I think that might not be a good idea. See, coffee is a stimulant, and this baby needs no stimulation. Especially since the stimulant acts as a laxative.

KitΘδς

Non-sleeping poopy baby is no fun.

Matt Ellen Д

sounds like a cartoon in the making

Cerberus

@KitΘδς This made me chuckle.

Marthaª

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Will coffee make everything better?

I need something that will make things better.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Marthaª Help yourself to some coffee if it will help.

But please don't give any to the baby.

Lauren Ψ

18:11

hey everyone

Matt Ellen Д

hi @Lauren

Lauren Ψ

quick favor to ask!

I'm sponsoring an English language blog called Sentence First

and he wants to hold a limerick contest

and we'll provide the prize

I mentioned this idea in this meta post meta.english.stackexchange.com/questions/1798/…

but I noticed there are no questions about limericks on our site

he's going to link to English.SE, and I think if we had a good question about limericks it might drive more traffic

anybody have some good questions about limericks they want to post?

Cerberus

Hi!

I don't know... I can't think of anything... do you have an idea?

Lauren Ψ

hi @Cerberus :-)

@Cerberus would it be off topic to just ask "What are the rules for composing a limerick"?

there's a similar question about composing a haiku

7

Q: What are the rules in composing a Haiku? (aside from the syllable count)

Aside from the syllable count what else do I need consider when writing a Haiku? I'm referring to the English imitation of a Haiku. I have been told that the first two lines should be descriptions and the third line should be the conclusion. But I've noticed that this is not always true. Does a...

literature poetry

Cerberus

Not sure. It might be construed as "literary criticism", which is supposedly off topic. But you could try it.

Ah.

Well if you link to that one, people will have a hard time calling your question off topic.

I'd certainly not vote to close it.

However, if the answer is easy to find with a quick Google search, it might be closed as General Reference?

Lauren Ψ

18:17

true

Cerberus

I personally dislike the labyrinth of bureaucratic rules that we've set up, but...

Lauren Ψ

I guess I could post it and worst case it gets deleted

Just wanted to see if anyone in here had better ideas that they wanted to post themselves

Cerberus

OK.

aedia λ

@LaurenΨ You might ask about something more specific, like a particular limerick that no longer rhymes, or something about the form more than the general rules

Cerberus

Perhaps you could ask something more specific about the rules of composition?

Jinx!

Lauren Ψ

18:19

ok I'll think on it

aedia λ

Something interesting noted in Wiki:

> Legman takes this as a convention whereby prosody is violated simultaneously with propriety.

Lauren Ψ

if anyone comes up with anything good, feel free to ping me in here

aedia λ

(The way the stress isn't like normal speech)

Lauren Ψ

or just post it yourself :)

Cerberus

Interesting.

aedia λ

18:21

Limerick (poetry)

A limerick is a kind of a witty, humorous, or nonsense poem, especially one in five-line or meter with a strict rhyme scheme (aabba), which is sometimes obscene with humorous intent. The form can be found in England as of the early years of the 18th century.An interesting and highly esoteric verse in limerick form is found in the diary of the Rev. John Thomlinson (1692–1761): 1717. Sept. 17th. One Dr. Bainbridge went from Cambridge to Oxon [Oxford] to be astronomy professor, and reading a lecture happened to say de Polis et Axis, instead of Axibus. Upon which one said, Dr. Bainbridge was ...

I started laughing out loud again at the parody one.

Matt Ellen Д

@aediaλ LOL that's a good one :D

I do love a good bit of Lear

F'x

oh, the return of Lauren ∏!

Lauren Ψ

haha yeah that's a good one

Matt Ellen Д

My parents used to read it to me and my brother when we were little

F'x

a question about the origins of limericks might be interesting, as I don't think there is a single well-established origin

@simchona good job editing this one

1

Q: Why do we say that prostitution is the "world's oldest profession"?

According to Wikipedia, the phrase the world's second oldest profession is "spying" and that the world's oldest profession is prostitution. However, this choice of phrasing doesn't seem to make sense to me, as one would need something to trade to a prostitute in the first place, thus making the ...

common-expressions phrase-history

Lauren Ψ

18:27

@Fx like "how did the limerick form originate?"

simchona

@Fx Thanks

Lauren Ψ

@Fx do you want to go ask that or something similar? Might be better coming from you since you came up with the idea :)

F'x

yeah, etymonline has a bit to get started, but not much

etymonline.com/index.php?term=limerick&allowed_in_frame=0

@LaurenΨ I'm afraid that's a bit outside my area of confidence, so I'll leave you (or another regular here) to it

Lauren Ψ

@Fx I've actually also been in communication with etymonline about a partnership but Doug says he already has enough traffic so not sure what we can do for him

@Fx yeah that was my thinking as well - don't know anything about limericks

just trying to think of something useful/relevant that Sentence First can link to

since I think people iwll be more likely to click a link if it is directly relevant to the contest

rather than "here's a cool website", you know

F'x

@LaurenΨ funnily, I read Sentience First at first :)

sounded more like a philosophy website

Lauren Ψ

18:32

haha no it's Sentence First

stancarey.wordpress.com

aedia λ

This has got to be a dupe of something:

0

Q: How did "next day" come to mean "day after next day"?

This question touched on the confusion of the common usage of "next Tuesday" to really mean "the Tuesday after next Tuesday", as opposed to the "soonest upcoming Tuesday". When one considers the actual definition of next, this phrasing is simply wrong. I'm rather baffled how this phrasing came ab...

etymology

user19161

@simchona I just added a space in your answer. Caught you!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@aediaλ The Q links to its own dupe

aedia λ

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh. Um. Right. I saw that. Why wouldn't I see that?

downs more coffee and forces eyes open

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@aediaλ Linking to your own dupes saves a lot of work for the mods.

Matt Ellen Д

18:46

@Lauren how about a question like "What is it about English that makes it favourable to anapestic rhythm?"

Lauren Ψ

is anapestic rhythm what is used in limericks?

whatever you all think is fine by me, I just want to get something up on our site in the next hour or so

because I need to email this guy back

Matt Ellen Д

ah, ok, I'll post it!

Lauren Ψ

cool, thanks!

if anyone else thinks of anything let me know so I can forward the link

simchona

My brain hurts:

0

Q: Why sometimes they use do also in affermative sentences

Why people sometimes use the word "do" or "does" in affermative sentences. For example: A: We know a guy! B: We do know a guy! Why B doesn't say: "Yes, we know a guy"? And in general, why the use do in affermative sentences?

american-english do-support

I don't think using "do" should be this guy's first priority.

Matt Ellen Д

@Lauren english.stackexchange.com/questions/40876/…

Lauren Ψ

18:57

Cool - I'll wait a little bit to see if it gets answered and then send it along :)

thanks a bunch!

Matt Ellen Д

no problem :)

Wipqozn

I strongly disagree with my question being closed as a duplicate:

0

Q: How did "next day" come to mean "day after next day"?

Possible Duplicate: Which day does "next Tuesday" refer to? This question touched on the confusion of the common usage of "next Tuesday" to really mean "the Tuesday after next Tuesday", as opposed to the "soonest upcoming Tuesday". When one considers the actual definition of ...

etymology

user19161

@simchona Not sure what he is asking.

Wipqozn

It's a completely different question from the one it was closed as a duplicate to.

The duplicate is asking for a definition, and my one is asking about the etymology.

simchona

@JasperLoy Me neither, though I think dr65 may have gotten it right with his edits

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…