English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Lauren Ψ

19:00

@Wipqozn yeah - it seems like the other one is asking for what the phrase means, and yours is asking how the phrase came to mean what it means

Matt Ellen Д

@Wipqozn You question seems to boil down to "how did next come to mean next?" or am I missing something?

Lauren Ψ

yeah?

Wipqozn

@MattEllenД It's asking how it came to mean "one after next" in the sentence "next Tuesday"

@LaurenΨ Exactly.

KitΘδς

@Martha Baby! ^

simchona

@KitΘδς So cute!

user19161

19:02

@KitΘδς Cute!

simchona

>
The question you linked to answers this in the accepted answer. "Next" means next week and not next day.

It still means next.

Wipqozn

@simchona Which isn't my question at all.

Cerberus

@Wipqozn How about Nohat's explanation that it came about because people use it as short for "Tuesday next week"?

simchona

I must say that being argumentative is not likely to win you reopen votes.

Cerberus

Is that satisfying?

KitΘδς

19:04

@simchona I don't think he's the one being argumentative.

Wipqozn

@simchona I'm not being argumentative, I am simply stating facts. If I am doing it in an aggressive overtone I do apologize since that is not my intention.

Matt Ellen Д

@KitΘδς dawwwww

Wipqozn

@Cerberus I'm still curious as to how that came about. Unless I am mistaken, that would be an etymology question, which is on-topic for EL&U?

simchona

@KitΘδς I'm getting that tone from the comments he had with @MrShinyandNew

user19161

@kit I can see the two teeth at the bottom!

Wipqozn

19:06

@simchona Given the tone he had with me, when he stated:

> Does something with a clear meaning need an etymology besides "I said it, and it was clear?"

It would be understandable I was offended.

Cerberus

@Wipqozn So you are not satisfied with Nohat's explanation? You want more details, such as when it was first used this way or something?

@Wipqozn Yeah that wasn't very nice.

KitΘδς

@Wipqozn It's difficult to nuance online commentary.

Wipqozn

@Cerberus Basically, yes. That explains what "next Tuesday" means, namely it is short for "Tuesday next week", but it doesn't explain how that came about.

Matt Ellen Д

@Wipqozn ok, I see you point. I've voted to reopen.

Cerberus

@Wipqozn OK. You have a point; but do you really think anyone will have the information you are looking for?

simchona

19:09

@Wipqozn Ok, I'm sorry--I read that entire thing wrong and got the tone wrong

Wipqozn

@Cerberus Yes, I do. It is an etymology question, so where better to ask then a site for experts on the subject?

Theta30

hmm i think this way of promoting by making up questions is problematic

Matt Ellen Д

@Theta30 how do you mean?

Wipqozn

@simchona and my apologies if I came off as aggressive.

simchona

@Wipqozn And I apologize for being argumentative.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

19:11

@Wipqozn For the record that statement was not meant to be argumentative or aggressive or offensive. It just strikes me that phrases which become "set phrases" don't necessarily need an etymology.

KitΘδς

@Wipqozn I understand how you see these as different questions. If you edit your question to substitute "Tuesday next week" for "next Tuesday," I think you will understand why it's a bit iffy.

Theta30

you are making up question, not because you had an interest on them beforehand

Cerberus

@Wipqozn I suppose it is possible, though I wouldn't expect too much of it... voted to reopen. On a side note, it is the history of the usage of next + weekday, not strictly the etymology of next you are looking for.

Theta30

at least put a logo-this is for promotional purpose or something like that

Cerberus

@Theta30 Yeah it is iffy...

@Theta30 Then again, it won't bother anyone.

Matt Ellen Д

19:14

@Theta30 I am interested in limericks and language. Yay! I'm not a shill today.

Wipqozn

@KitΘδς I made that edit, since it is clearer then my original phrasing. I personally don't see how it can be iffy even with the change, but this just seems to be a case of differing perspective.

KitΘδς

0

Q: Why do we say that prostitution is the "world's oldest profession"?

According to Wikipedia, the phrase the world's second oldest profession is "spying" and that the world's oldest profession is prostitution. However, this choice of phrasing doesn't seem to make sense to me, as one would need something to trade to a prostitute in the first place, thus making the ...

Is this really a question about EL&U?

F'x

@Theta30 promotional? it's the other way around

z7sg Ѫ

@Fx I closed this question, why is it open again? @Kit

simchona

@z7sgѪ I edited it--it's more etymology now.

KitΘδς

19:16

No, it's a question about prostitution.

F'x

@z7sgѪ because it was edited, and 5 people voted to reopen it

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Wipqozn Your edit makes the question clearer so I've also voted to re-open.

z7sg Ѫ

@simchona Etymology of what though?

Wipqozn

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Well I'm glad to hear that. As for your second point, I disagree myself. Regardless of how it came about, everything has an etymology. Although some may be less interesting then others.

simchona

@z7sgѪ Of "world's oldest profession"

z7sg Ѫ

19:17

I'd like to see that people voted to reopen though I can't see that.

F'x

@Wipqozn it's not only why it came about, but how, when, and what was the evolution of its usage throughout time

user19161

@wip I transposed two words and translated one question mark in editing your question, hehe.

F'x

@z7sgѪ it's about the expression "the (world's) oldest profession"

z7sg Ѫ

We'll I cannot revote to close, cos apparently there are 5 mysterious folks who voted to reopen and that overrules me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Wipqozn Well, phrases are simply uttered and somehow they catch on, as opposed to words which must be crafted. Some phrases are unusual but this one doesn't strike me as such. "Next week tuesday" -> "next tuesday". Or some other shortening.

F'x

19:18

@z7sgѪ grumpy unicorn?

KitΘδς

@Wipqozn I think it's because it was originally "Tuesday next week," then "Tuesday next," and then "next Tuesday." Using "next" to mean "next" just really isn't very confusing to me. I would be nice to know if this is a correct etymology though.

z7sg Ѫ

I am skeptical about the reopening thing.

Wipqozn

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I personally find it unusual simply because by shortening it, you've completely changed the meaning of the sentence. IF you look at it from a purely technical perspective that is.

simchona

@z7sgѪ You can flag with your reasons, if you want.

z7sg Ѫ

I am convinced dark forces are at work.

Matt Ellen Д

19:20

@KitΘδς This is what I was thinking

KitΘδς

@Fx No, it's not. It's about Why is prostitution the world's oldest profession?

user19161

@z7sgѪ It's not dark forces. It's called disagreement.

user19161

There are only dark forces in Star Wars.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Wipqozn I don't think it's completely changed the meaning. It introduces ambiguity, do you mean tuesday tomorrow (assuming it's monday today) or tuesday next week? but a simple convention lets the listener/reader decide which meaning is implied. And lots of other languages have similar constructs.

F'x

@JasperLoy and you can vote to reclose

z7sg Ѫ

19:21

@Fx Nah you cannot (if you did the first time)

F'x

@z7sgѪ ok, at least I can, sorry

user19161

Well, I am too tired to think about this so not casting any votes on this.

F'x

so, people who voted to close and those who voted to reopen neutralized themselves, and others can judge? sounds good

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Wipqozn, anyway, we'll see, maybe there is something interesting there.

Wipqozn

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I personally think it does change the meaning, but it would appear this is just something on which we disagree.

KitΘδς

19:24

I'm ticked about the prostitution question. That's ridiculous.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Wipqozn Impossible! Everyone who disagrees with me must, by definition, be wrong :)

simchona

@KitΘδς Then flag it

F'x

@KitΘδς ok, to be honest, it still sounded like Skeptics more than EL&U

I've edited it further

@KitΘδς look at the answer I provided, and pray tell me what's not about language there

z7sg Ѫ

@Fx It's fine, as long as you cut out all of the discussion and just ask what the origin of the phrase is.

Wipqozn

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I think the same is true for me. Wait...oh my, you know what this means? Reality is lie.

z7sg Ѫ

19:26

Discussion of whether it is or not the oldest profession is the off-topic part

KitΘδς

@Fx I didn't say your answer was ridiculous. If the question matched, it'd be fine. And your edits helped a lot.

z7sg Ѫ

Apparently the phrase comes from Kipling anyway.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Ah, another display of narcissism!

KitΘδς

@z7sgѪ I agree.

F'x

@KitΘδς now, with the current state of it, how does it look to you?

@z7sgѪ eh?

KitΘδς

19:27

@Fx It's much better. I'm happy with it now, and I'll delete my comment.

Well, "happy" is a bit of an exaggeration.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Wipqozn That would explain a lot.

Matt Ellen Д

@z7sgѪ because he has exceedingly good whores

2

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy teehee

Wipqozn

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It really would.

KitΘδς

@Fx How far back does NGrams go though?

z7sg Ѫ

19:28

@MattEllenД :D

@Fx "Lalun is a member of the most ancient profession in the world." 1888 Kipling as referenced by etymonline

user19161

By the way when is everyone going to change out of their weird symbols?

user19161

It is difficult on the eye.

Matt Ellen Д

@KitΘδς looks like they go back to 1500

KitΘδς

@MattEllenД Are you sure? They have an awful lot of OCR errors.

F'x

@z7sgѪ yeah, got it, missed it the first time

I should really go to bed soon

Matt Ellen Д

19:31

@KitΘδς oh, sorry, I meant in general

F'x

so, see you all later!

z7sg Ѫ

@Fx bai bai

user19161

@Fx Goodnight.

z7sg Ѫ

@MattEllen Not really meaningful before 1800 and even before 1900 the sample size is small and there are many errors.

Matt Ellen Д

@Fx cya

Cerberus

19:35

It also helps if you turn off smoothing.

Then you will see how consistent its results really are.

Smoothing obscures reality.

user19161

Because reality is not smooth.

Matt Ellen Д

unless you zoom reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeely far out

KitΘδς

My reality is smooth and free of corners. And well-padded.

Matt Ellen Д

:D

child-safe, you might say

KitΘδς

Yes, yes, indeed.

user19161

19:38

Life is but a dream. Reality and illusion are one.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

My reality includes my trying to work while my 17-month-old son sits on my lap, destroying my desk's lego collection.

user19161

Emptiness is form and form is emptiness.

Matt Ellen Д

grass is green and green gets you grass

user19161

I love Matt and Matt loves me.

Matt Ellen Д

@JasperLoy ((hugs))

drɱ65 δ

19:46

I'm trying to make [phrase-history] a synonym of [history]. Can anyone check it out?

simchona

phrase-history and history

drɱ65 δ

No, I mean check out the suggested synonymization.

In the link.

simchona

@drɱ65δ Just adding links so people can see.

drɱ65 δ

Oh, sorry - OK.

KitΘδς

@drɱ65δ Sorry, I don't have the rep.

drɱ65 δ

19:49

I'm also wondering if [mean] should be a synonym of [meaning]. Someone used it once, so I suggested it, too.

user19161

@KitΘδς Ya, we are just mere mortals.

simchona

@drɱ65δ There's only one question under "phrase-history" so I don't think we need a synonym. Just retag it.

drɱ65 δ

mean and meaning

Same with [mean]

OK

I just thought it would be nice.

:)

KitΘδς

Mean should just be deleted.

Unless the question is mean.

Matt Ellen Д

@KitΘδς was about to say

drɱ65 δ

19:50

@KitΘδς Synonymization is better than deletion, though

Matt Ellen Д

well, Pekka can be a meany. Answer all the PHP questions before I get a look in

simchona

Gen ref:

0

Q: How to spell Ok Dokie?

How do you spell Okay dokay? "Ok", can be spelled "Ok", or "Okay". But before I try to spell "Dokie", I should understand its etymology. Any ideas? The main problem I have with spelling the pair is that "Ok" and "Doky" should rhyme, but I don't see a spelling that can reflect that. On the other ...

spelling rhymes

drɱ65 δ

Because then no one can tag anything as [mean].

KitΘδς

@drɱ65δ Only if the tag is useful.

@drɱ65δ But that's not a useful tag.

simchona

Just try to Google "Okay dokay" and you get "okey dokey" which has a meaning at phrases.org.uk

user19161

19:51

@simchona Done.

drɱ65 δ

@simchona Done.

user19161

@sim should get a badge for initiating closes.

drɱ65 δ

0

Q: A word or phrasal verb in place of "Compromise"

Can we use get in instead of compromise in the sentence below where I try to say "I don't want to argue with my wife and I make sacrifices from myself and endure the problems"? I am just not sure this is explaining exactly what I want to say, though. I get all problems and conflicts in to a...

word-choice

I'm still trying to understand this one

Matt Ellen Д

I just tried to read it and I'm not 100% sure what structure he is trying to create

simchona

I tried to answer.

drɱ65 δ

19:59

BTW, did you know that Community owns myqlarson's bounties now?

simchona

Yup, I saw that. Because he deleted his account.

Matt Ellen Д

he was a bit of a random user

aedia λ

yawns is it home time yet?

simchona

@aedia Thanks for the edit--great comment

I'll proposition those prepositions if I want

aedia λ

@simchona Hehe :)

simchona

20:02

OT:

KitΘδς

@aediaλ You can come to my place if you want.

simchona

0

Q: What's the best place to study pygmalion from

I'm preparing for my terminal exams, and I'm searching for the best internet resource I could find for studying pygmalion..Sparknotes seems to be the best, but I thought I'll ask the community if there's a better internet resource available.. This might seem a bit off topic but please provide an...

literature online-resources

That was fast.

user19161

@simchona It was closed before I could say done.

simchona

It was closed before I finished my comment.

user19161

I should get a badge for saying done.

drɱ65 δ

20:04

It was closed before my internet connection came back!

Done!

Oh wait... I wasn't there.

Matt Ellen Д

I was closed before it was asked

KitΘδς

@MattEllenД Shall I vote to reopen you?

simchona

@KitΘδς Whoa now

Matt Ellen Д

@KitΘδς bah! stupid spelling. Yes, I'd like a grand re-opening :D

aedia λ

@KitΘδς Do you think it's a short trip, as the unicorn flies? Maybe I could just pop over for a quick nap...

Matt Ellen Д

20:10

just a nap?

KitΘδς

@aediaλ It's about twelve hours by car, so you could make it in seconds.

Plenty of time for a nap and some hanky-panky.

Or lots of convincing and begging if you're not into that.

user19161

No hanky-panky, only hocus-pocus.

KitΘδς

According to some, I am quite the psycho-magician.

Matt Ellen Д

is that because you actually saw people in two? It's not so much magic as tragic.

user19161

Kit is very hard to understand. I am still trying to divine certain things about you.

KitΘδς

20:13

@JasperLoy Like what?

user19161

@KitΘδς You should know.

KitΘδς

Nope. You could just ask me.

user19161

Nah, nobody tells the truth here except me.

KitΘδς

If you say so.

But you could always ask.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I tell the truth when asked questions. Not necessarily when I volunteer "facts".

aedia λ

20:16

@JasperLoy Sincerity is too sweet after all those lilies. Have to wash it down with sarcasm.

Matt Ellen Д

my spoon is too big

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Same here!

KitΘδς

I practice legerdemain for fun and to entertain others.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattEllenД My spoon is too big too!

Matt Ellen Д

@KitΘδς this is why I practice nonsense :)

user19161

20:18

@MattEllenД What is the spoon for?

KitΘδς

Bending?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitΘδς legerdemain, is that what they're calling it now?

►

KitΘδς

@MrShinyandNew安宇 cough I have no idea what you mean.

Matt Ellen Д

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yay!

I am a banana!

user19161

I am a pineapple in Robusto and JSBangs dictionaries.

user19161

20:21

@MattEllenД That's the only fruit I eat.

Matt Ellen Д

!!

I best not get too close when you're hungry

user19161

I try to have exactly one banana everyday, no more, no less.

user19161

The best bananas are Del Monte.

simchona

Is this proofreading?

0

Q: To live in ignorance of just happiness

Is it a valid phrase? Please, accept or reject it. Maybe there is other exact expression. Thank you.

phrases expression-choice

user19161

@simchona Anyway I am not sure what the phrase means.

simchona

20:36

@JasperLoy I gave up trying to

user19161

Now the pros question has two close votes. Interesting how things get closed, opened, closed.

simchona

Hi @kurious

@JasperLoy Yeah. We all have different opinions, I guess.

user19161

@simchona I know. I pointed that out as it was quite comical.

user19161

20:52

@aedia I just realised the website you showed Cerb is kurious's website!

Matt Ellen Д

21:18

good night

Cerberus

Hi.

simchona

21:42

@Cerberus Hi

Cerberus

Hi!

simchona

21:53

This is now OT:

2

Q: English synonyms

I am looking for a database of English synonyms (text file or anything convertible to it). I am learning English and want to use this data in my job. I think everyone who is learning English wants to know more than just one variant of a word. Any help is welcome.

synonyms

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

@simchona well, it seems to be On Topic....

simchona

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū Just because its old and open doesn't mean its on topic necessarily

@waiwai933, is there a reason its still open?

It's like this, in a way:

-1

Q: Dictionaries in XML format

Is it possible to download or buy some good dictionary in XML (or other open source format)? I like OALD, Webster and other good dictionaries.

dictionaries

Cerberus

I'm not sure it is a good idea to close off-topic questions from the past. Better leave them be. They were probably on topic then.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

@sim ah, so you mean that this should be asked on more like software Q&A?

Well, it seems to be half and half...

simchona

@Cerberus The old ones have been closed in the past

And by keeping them, aren't we setting a precedent that the future questions that are similar will be kept?

Cerberus

22:04

@simchona Is that so? But not many.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

How many times do I have to say it? Hedgehogs CAN live anywhere, so it is universal too!

Cerberus

@simchona Probably not? Who's looking at those questions anyway?

simchona

@Cerberus People who search before they answer

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

@sim Let it be. You're beginning to act like... The Queen of closure.

Cerberus

@simchona Are those people a problem anyway?

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū Yeah, we don't want that...

simchona

22:06

@Cerberus People who ask OT questions? And then point to them when they ask their own and then say "but this one is open"

Cerberus

We have had many great questions in the past that were asked before the "topic" the the site was made narrower and narrower.

simchona

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū I don't like your tone in that.

Cerberus

I don't want those closed.

waiwai933

@simchona "closed as not constructive" isn't the same thing as off topic. Plus, see resources.

simchona

@Cerberus Plenty which would now be OT have a blurb saying that they have historical value, but shouldn't be used as basis for a new one.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

22:08

@sim don't take me wrong. I am just saying that all of us have transgressions.

Cerberus

@simchona People who search before they post are usually the kind of people we want. We shouldn't be so keen on policing our (vague and multitudinous) rules, I think.

@simchona What is a blurb?

simchona

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū Please just stop

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

@sim If somethings bothering you, just tell me.

simchona

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū I did tell you. Please, just stop.

Cerberus

Let's all calm down and not be offended so quickly.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

22:09

...okie dokie.

simchona

@waiwai933 I see

@Cerberus A blurb is a small little bit of text--for example, the explanations under why a question was closed would be a blurb.

They're usually subject to space constraints.

Cerberus

@simchona Oh. Just a message, then? An announcement?

simchona

@Cerberus Pretty much

@waiwai933 The question isn't constructive, either. There is no one answer

Cerberus

I vote for not messing with old questions unless they're really awful.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

@sim well, I see no point closing old questions anyhow. nobody even sees those these days.

Cerberus

22:12

Use common sense, not rules.

You could post it on Meta.

simchona

@Cerberus Post about closing this particular question?

Ugh, it's raining. Stupid weather.

Cerberus

@simchona Or about closing old questions in general that aren't low quality.

Terrible rain here too.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

Here too!

waiwai933

@simchona We can't exactly apply that rule too strictly here on EL&U, considering a lot of questions about language, such as single-word-requests, don't have a specific, right answer. I think that that particular question isn't too broad. Naturally, if the community votes to close, I don't have a problem with that—but for me, it's borderline enough for me not want to use my supervote.

simchona

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū We're geographically close now

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

22:14

wow, we must live close, or it is just coincidence.

simchona

@waiwai933 Ok, I get where you're coming from. I'll let sleeping dogs lie.

aedia λ

Hi y'all again.

ChaosGamer ΕΛ-Υ ēel-ū

@waiwai snickers super vote... hahahahha...

aedia λ

I hope it's not raining.

simchona

Cerberus

22:15

@simchona Woof!

simchona

@Cerberus Good doggy

Cerberus

Yay.

aedia λ

@simchona Woohoo!

Cerberus

@aediaλ Hiya!

simchona

@ChaosGamerΕΛΥēelū *Whoa

aedia λ

22:17

I looked outside and it looks very grim. It's probably raining :(

simchona

@aediaλ You're in...New England, no?

aedia λ

DC.

I was in New England last weekend, though!

simchona

@aediaλ Then we're all in the same area

aedia λ

It wasn't actually raining much on my commute in this morning, but I keep seeing emails with flood warnings.

Cerberus

22:34

It seems the rain has subsided here, yay.

simchona

It's still raining here...

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…