English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

19:00

We’ve lost it. Damn the French!

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@tchrist What does my/your uncle have to do with this?

tchrist

It’s the masculine complement to antedating, but of course!

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Oh, duh.

There I go again, being slow.

This is not my night, clearly.

tchrist

Drink more coffee.

Smoke less pot.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Blech! Never.

Neither is possible.

tchrist

19:01

Dutch oom.

Not sure I believe the avus link.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

The first for reasons of avoiding vomiting; the second for laws of physics.

tchrist

@JanusBahsJacquet I believe pot is prescribed as an antiëmetic.

Cerberus

@tchrist Avunculus?

tchrist

Be that as it may...

> eme. Obs. exc. dial. Forms: 1-3 éam, (2 eom), 2-5 em, (3 æem, æm, heam, he(e)m), 4-5 eem(e, 4-6 eme, Sc. eym(e, (5 emme, yem), 4-7 eam(e, 8 dial. eem, 9 Sc. eme, north. dial. eam.

Etymology: Com. WGer.: OE. éam = OFris. êm (MDutch oem, Dutch oom), OHG. ôheim (MHG. ôheim, œheim, -hein, mod.Ger. oheim, ohm); if the word existed in OTeut. the type would be *auhaimo-z; presumed to be a compound or derivative of *awo-z = L. avus grandfather (of which the L. avunculus, uncle, is a diminutive). It is believed that the original sense of the WGer. word was ‘mother’s brother’ (cf. L. avunculus); b…

Cerberus

So what was this eam business about?

tchrist

19:03

@Cerberus Alien intercourse.

Well, discourse.

Aliens and predators.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Who’s the alien again? I think I was the predator, right?

tchrist

I accused him of predating you with the whole preprint thing.

Cerberus

I don't get it, I'm afraid...

tchrist

So like antedating.

Except you are a man, and he a boy.

So it needs must be eamdating not antedating.

Beyond that, I give up. Ask Reg.

@JanusBahsJacquet Aye.

Cerberus

I have no idea what pun is referring to what...

Janus Bahs Jacquet

19:05

@Cerberus Every pun is referring recursively to every other pun. That’s the trouble.

Cerberus

The god Janus may antedate Cerberus, but this must be merely about attestation, not about actual culture.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Oh dear. Déjà vu.

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet Yes, Tchrist lost me right around his introduction os eam.

tchrist

rederives the Fibonacci sequence in his head to find a safe haven of calm against the rage these stultiloquies engender

Cerberus

Whose stultiloquies? Your own?

tchrist

19:07

@JanusBahsJacquet Et lu.

@Cerberus Et tu.

Cerberus

I give up.

The dialogue is too slow.

tchrist

He always does that when he wants his belly scratched.

@Cerberus Au contraire.

Cerberus

I am not answered, hence the efficiency of the dialogue falls below my threshold.

tchrist

You would again have me dissect the frog. You know whither that leads.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@tchrist Now I’m lost. Not that I’m at all musical. You’ll have to get Robusto to explain that one for you.

tchrist

19:10

@JanusBahsJacquet Déjà lu.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Hah—this time the over-advanced pun was mine. :-D

tchrist

@JanusBahsJacquet Were you not whelped on these hither shores?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Nah, I was born in hospital.

Cerberus

@tchrist Very well, I will ignore ununderstood puns henceforth...

tchrist

@JanusBahsJacquet No septimal sevenths in this chat.

To dodge the answer is to give it.

Cerberus

19:16

@JanusBahsJacquet By the way, can you tell me anything about U-Danish?

Are you aware of it, and how similar is it to U-English and U-Dutch?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@tchrist What’s a non-septimal seventh?

tchrist

Fucking monarchist.

@JanusBahsJacquet I knew you would say that!!!

Which is why I preprovided the answer.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Cerb What exactly do you want to know? I don’t know if it’s particularly well-defined for Danish, but I do know which dialects are considered U (and what their general traits are).

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet Huh, dialects?

tchrist

7-limit tuning

7-limit or septimal tunings and intervals are musical instrument tunings that have a limit of seven: the largest number contained in the interval ratios between pitches is a multiple of seven. For example, the greater just minor seventh, 9:5 is a 5-limit ratio, the harmonic seventh has the ratio 7:4 and is thus a septimal interval. Similarly, the septimal chromatic semitone, 21:20, is a septimal interval as 21÷7=3. The harmonic seventh is used in the barbershop seventh chord and music. () Compositions with septimal tunings include La Monte Young's The Well-Tuned Piano, Ben Johnston's...

Cerberus

19:19

@JanusBahsJacquet Example: what are the phrases for "bon appetit", and are they also all non-U like in Dutch?

tchrist

@Cerberus He wants to know how self-important snooty-snoots jabber.

Cerberus

?

Oh, it's ice-cream-eating time, I have to go.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Cerberus Velbekomme for all. No U and non-U variations.

That I know of, at least.

tchrist

@Cerberus The notion has no cisatlantic translation.

Cerberus

Hmm strange.

tchrist

19:20

We find it repugnant.

Cerberus

As far as I know, they are all equally non-U in French and German too.

@tchrist It has; see my quotation from Emily Post.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@tchrist That’s the kind of stuff I was telling you to talk to Robusto about. I don’t know it. I only have the vaguest (and then slightly vaguer than that) notion that there’s a difference between a 律 and a 吕, that’s all.

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet Dutch has wel bekome in that sense, which is the opposite of U.

tchrist

@Cerberus The déjàs are really stacking up.

Cerberus

Okay, later, both!

tchrist

19:21

@JanusBahsJacquet I’ve no Asian scripts nor tongues.

Cerberus

disappears in a puff of asbestos

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Cerberus That doesn’t sound healthy.

tchrist

Ass best us.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@tchrist *bests

Subject-verb agreement, mang.

Jez

i shouldnt feel this tired after a squash match

im getting unhealthy

tchrist

19:23

@JanusBahsJacquet It did. You mistook a subjunctive for an indicative.

Jez

dont feel like doing any development... not good

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@tchrist Que le cul nous bête ?

Cerberus

@JanusBahsJacquet You should have known to stand back...

tchrist

@JanusBahsJacquet Heh.

Cerberus

Now I leave you two gents alone, adieu!

tchrist

19:24

God save the king! Thy kingdom come! Ass best us!

Jez

hah

i finally got that.

surely cul bête nous though

tchrist

I find it odd that the French and the Spanish reach for different bits.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Qimai þiudinassus þeins, arsas baistinai uns!

tchrist

¡Qué coño me dices, tío?

@JanusBahsJacquet Uns not ugkis?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

I was feeling grandiose and included Jez.

And Cerb

tchrist

19:29

I’m sure the latter will be touched and the former startled.

Jez

> Just wondering if there is a word (or pair of words) that starts with N and ends with O and actually means Yes (or roughly yes... some sort of synonym). I thought this might have some humorous applications on occasion. Thanks.

.....

Janus Bahs Jacquet

(I’m annoyed that I typoed/misremembered batist-)

@Jez “No problemo”

Jez

i guess

tchrist

> Nago naio nakodo Nanaimo nano nanto napoo narco nardoo Nasho nathemo natto Navaho Navajo Nebbiolo
Negrillo Negrito Negro nelumbo nemo neoembryo Nero nescio neutralino neutretto neutrino ngaio Ngoko
nicolo nido niello Nintendo niopo nispero nitchevo nitro nitto No no nocebo nondo noo norteño
novillero novillo novio nullo numéro numero nuncio nympho

Jez

not sure how humorous it would be on any occasion

tchrist

19:32

@JanusBahsJacquet glares

Janus Bahs Jacquet

(Also annoyed that I can’t even remember how Gothic normally derives verbs from thematic nouns. It’s clearly been too long since my last Gothic class.)

tchrist

> Nago, naio, nakodo, Nanaimo, nano, nanto, napoo, narco, nardoo, Nasho, nathemo, native potato,
natto, Navaho, Navajo, Nebbiolo, ne exeat regno, Negrillo, Negrito, Negro, nelumbo, nemo, neoembryo,
Neo-Geo, Nero, nescio, neutralino, neutretto, neutrino, never so, New Negro, next to, ngaio, Ngoko,
nicolo, nido, niello, nien hao, Niger-Congo, Niger morocco, Ningre Tongo, Nintendo, niopo, nispero,
nitchevo, nitro, nitto, No, no, no can do, nocebo, no-go, nondo, non-ego, non-hero, no-no, non-zero,
noo, norteño, not-go, novillero, novillo, novio, novus homo, nullo, numéro, numero, numero uno,

Jez

why did the dotted 0 take off? it looks like it started out because some system actually stole a similar looking character. it's just a hack to distinguish 0, when we already had a better one; the slashed 0

yet there are fonts that formalize the dotted 0

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Slashed 0 is easily confused with Ø, I guess?

tchrist

@Jez When, the pregnant Unicode v7?

Jez

19:36

"easily" confused? no it isn't

they look totally different

however, dotted 0 in small font sizes is easily confused with O

Janus Bahs Jacquet

As do O and 0 … different enough for the need for a disambiguator to arise.

Jez

except that there is

which is why 2 did

i just dont get 1 of them

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Fixed. Don’t know where that negation came from.

tchrist

I give up.

I can’t find your dotted zero.

Jez

it's just the glyph that some fonts use for 0

though i wouldn't be surprised if Unicode had a specific entry for dotted and slashed zeros

tchrist

19:44

@Jez It does not.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Where on earth would you need an upside-down cló g?

tchrist

@Jez That would be wrong.

Matt Эллен

tchrist

@JanusBahsJacquet Be careful what you ask for.

Jez

@MattЭллен dotted - why?

btw, Ubuntu. ugh.

Matt Эллен

19:44

I don't care?

I was simply giving an example for reference

tchrist

@JanusBahsJacquet Somewhere there are silos of documents answering that very question.

Quick, without looking it up, what language did we get silo from?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

I’m sure there are.

Spanish, I’d presume

Matt Эллен

Persian

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Or perhaps Portuguese?

tchrist

Euskara.

Matt Эллен

19:46

damn

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Really? Well, presumably via Spanish, then

tchrist

No really? I thought it was via carrier pigeon.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@tchrist Equally quick, without looking it up, what’s the Catalan word for ‘silos’?

tchrist

The Catalan word?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Uh, yeah.

Not Catalonian, obviously.

tchrist

19:48

I would stab at the same, but am blocking.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Nope

Sitges

Like the town

tchrist

Oh God.

God god god.

The tales I could tell you of that town!!

And of the long walk back from the clubs late at night along the beach.

Or the foam parties at the beach by summer nights.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Yes, thank you, I’ve been there. The walks back from the foam parties tend to be rather chilly in my experience.

brrrr

tchrist

No shit.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Next time, I’m bringing clothes.

tchrist

19:51

It’s the line-up along the little cabinas at the beach that makes for the most entertainment.

You can’t tell if it’s a catwalk or a rogue’s gallery, or both.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

True

I grew quite fond of the walk out to Platja del Home Mort.

tchrist

I’ve never met anyone else who Knows that place.

The walk out to the farthest platja is rather adventuresome.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Which one do you mean by the farthest? How far past Home Mort?

tchrist

If Cerb had any idea what we were discussing, he would utterly faint.

(Checking map)

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Is he really that much of a prude? But he’s Dutch!

tchrist

19:54

He is, actually.

But anyway, yes, it's the one past that one. The last two are discontiguous, and the forest path is well trodden.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Being a prude is not allowed if you’re Dutch. I’ve just decreed.

tchrist

There is a labyrinth in the forest above it, filled with lions and tigers and bears.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Don’t think I went there. The forest I went to had mostly bears, cubs, and otters—not many lions or tigers.

tchrist

Many there are who return with fewer prendas than they went there with.

Otters are nice.

Seals are better.

Foca la loca.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Seals? I don’t even know if that’s a type or a marine.

tchrist

19:58

Well, swimmer-type.

Surfer body.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

OIC. Yes, those are vastly preferable to most of the rest of the fauna.

tchrist

And a lovely rhyme in Spanish, si buscas una foca loca: ¡qué locura!

In Castile they were adamant that silo was from Basque. The RAE has “of inconclusive origin”. The OED is certain it is from Greek but via Spanish or French. However, a word that started in the Basque counties would be equally likely to come via Spanish or French.

I can see you’re having a fun as a lad. That’s great.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

“A fun as a lad”?

tchrist

A great deal of.

People always grab for Basque when they’re uncertain.

I’ve heard nutsos claim that phonetic transcriptions the Romans made of Pictish align with Basque.

> Aunque hoy en día, y tal vez desde hace mucho tiempo, es empleada la palabra ibai con el significado de río, es probable que antiguamente se usase en vez de ella la palabra ur, que hoy se emplea especialmente por agua, aunque aparezca en composición también con el sentido de río o arroyo.

Según nos dice el Padre Etxalar en su "Disertación sobre el análisis e interpretación de los nombres toponímicos vascos", pág. 1053 de la Geog. del País Vasco-Navarro, tomo I, Navarra, en un documento de Santo Domingo de Silos del año 919 se advierte que en la lengua del país llamaban ura al agua, al rí…

Hm, so ok, there was a Silos up there a long time ago.

Los nombres de río, fuente y árbol en Euskera

This is better: euskonews.com/0494zbk/gaia49404es.html

Damned archeologists.

I want philologists and they give me archaeologists.

Here finally, the controversy.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

I know the feeling!

tchrist

20:09

> Según unos diccionarios, la palabra silo viene del latín sirus y este del griego σειρός (seirós) con el significado de granero subterráneo. El Breve Diccionario Etimológico de la Lengua Castellana de Joan Corominas dice que es una voz pre-romana y probablemente del céltico, sílon (semilla).

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Surely this would tie in rather nicely with the whole Old Europe Hydronymy stuff.

tchrist

> Silo es una voz claramente prerromana y propia exclusivamente del castellano , ya que ni siquiera está originalmente en portugués. Su significado original parece haber sido 'cavidad subterránea' y de ahí 'cavidad para guardar el grano' o incluso 'cavidad subterránea que sirve de cárcel' ( ver lo expuesto a propósito de mazmorra), como en el ejemplo de Gonzalo de Berceo : "yazié en fondo silo , de fierros bien cargado",
es decir, 'quedé tirado en una honda mazmorra , bien cargado de cadenas' o en el ejemplo de López de Ayala "allí estovo preso en un silo" . El étimo de silo lo tenemos tamb…

> Esta cita pone en evidencia que sirós / sirus 'silo' no era una voz usada en Grecia o en Italia, sino que era propia de territorios periféricos, en el oriente (Capadocia) y en occidente (Hispania), por lo que cabría suponer que era una palabra preindoeuropea, de tipo mediterráneo, perteneciente a un substrato que habría dado origen tanto a la voz griega sirós como a la hispánica silo o a la euskérica zulo 'agujero' .

Um, that’s voz in the sense of a gloss, a word.

That site is really very good at tracking down Iberian mysteries of this sort.

I’ve used them before.

> ¡Qué bonita es la humanidad: de guardar granos para asegurar la supervivencia. Ahora los silos guardan misiles para asegurar la aniquilación!

Janus Bahs Jacquet

“El céltico, sílon (semilla)” … that seems dubious. I think they’re referring to *sēlom, which is ‘grain’, not ‘flour’ (can semilla be a grain, too?). Derived from the *seh1- root (‘sow’, ‘semen’, etc.).

tchrist

Semilla is any sort of seed or grain.

Et semini ejus.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Oh, all right. I thought it was only flour.

Then it’s just their Proto-Celtic form that’s not quite right.

tchrist

20:15

No, flour would be more like farina.

With f > h in Gascon, Basque, Castilian, but not Catalan or Portuguese.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Oh yeah. Duh.

tchrist

Sinsemilla is the kind of pot that has no seeds.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Never been much of a one for cooking vocab (or biological stuff).

tchrist

No fabes for you!

Janus Bahs Jacquet

They just give me gas anyway

tchrist

20:17

What did Hannibal Lector say about them again?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Not a clue. Haven’t seen the movie since I was about 15.

tchrist

What, in 2010?

:)

> I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Like I said, Cerb and I are equidated. ;-)

Oh yes, I do remember that quote.

tchrist

Les fabes in pronounced more like las fabas due to Catalan rules.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Shouldn’t it be [ləs 'faβəs]?

tchrist

20:19

They do have vowel reduction on the unstressed a/e, though.

Not quite.

Close.

There are places where it seems more like [ɐ].

Janus Bahs Jacquet

I mean, depending on whether we’re talking North or South Catalan of course.

(I forget which does what … north has more reductions, south fewer, right? Or is it the other way around?)

tchrist

Whereas if it were Portuguese, then yes, it would be at most a schwa. They have a rare vowel there.

Barcelona and Valencia are rather different in that.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

[uʃ 'fabʃ]

tchrist

> Vowel harmony with /ɔ/ and /ɛ/ in Southern Valencian; this process is progressive (i.e. preceding vowels affect those pronounced afterwards) over the last unstressed vowel of a word; e.g. hora /ˈɔɾa/ → [ˈɔɾɔ]. However, there are cases where regressive metaphony occurs over pretonic vowels; e.g. tovallola /tovaˈʎɔla/ → [tɔvɔˈʎɔlɔ] ('towel'), afecta /aˈfɛkta/ → [ɛˈfɛktɛ] ('affects').

> In Southern Valencian subvarieties, especially in Alicante Valencian, the diphthong /ɔu/ (phonetically [ɒw] in Valencian) has become [ɑw]: bous [ˈbɑws] ('bulls').

Robusto

Well, now you're just indulging in sophistry—and reaching into rural U.S. dialect to do so. Do people in your country really say "that there" in conversation? — Robusto 15 secs ago

tchrist

20:23

That vowel harmony thing is strange, although I know you’re used to it. On the streets of Lisbon today the <ei> spelling is turning into [aɪ].

It means that a simple word like leite for milk sounds rather like the English word light in a Portuguese mouth but leechee in a Brazilian one.

Jez

further apart than US and UK English?

tchrist

@Robusto Or would that be casuistry?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Similar to Faeroese—most of their dialects turn /ei/ into [ɐi], too.

tchrist

@Jez Much.

Jez

can Portugese and Brazilians understand each other?

tchrist

20:25

@JanusBahsJacquet Now, why does that happen in unrelated languages?

@Jez Yes and no. The Portuguese can always understand the Brazilian. The reverse may not be true.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Robusto That there is very common in BrE.

Jez

it's curious that UK and US English haven't diverged that much actually, given how Portugese and French have over the pond. then again Spanish doesn't seem to have diverged much either

Robusto

@tchrist Either would work. It's FF we're talking about. He doesn't give up on an argument just because it's a good idea to do so.

tchrist

Can Danes and Norwegians understand each other?

Robusto

@JanusBahsJacquet Sounds a bit off to me.

tchrist

20:26

Like that.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@tchrist It’s a fairly common process, cross-linguistically.

Jez

why is it that English and Spanish have stayed relatively similar among speakers?

Robusto

@tchrist Sure, if they both speak English. ^)^

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Oh yes, with a bit of exposure and practice, Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian are all quite mutually comprehensible.

tchrist

@Jez Or at least mutually intelligibly, yes.

Robusto

20:27

@JanusBahsJacquet Well, maybe we should try to work that kind of magic between Americans and Brits.

tchrist

But note that TV-Cinc subtitles Kebecker films shown in France. :)

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Some dialects of Norwegian, though, are just generally unintelligible, even to the people in the next valley over.

tchrist

I’ve tried to explain via other pairs of European languages the intercomprehensibility of Portuguese vs Brazilian compared with Portuguese vs Castilian, and don’t know enough about the north to find a good set.

They all can read what each other write to 95-99%. But just listening, it gets muddy, especially if you are not the native Portuguese speaker. :)

Jez

@Robusto What about the Spanish and the Peruvians, Argentinians, Mexicans, Chileans, etc?

for some reason they haven't diverged

tchrist

I had a notion that Danish and Norwegian were somewhat like that in that a Dane would be more apt to understand the Norse than vice versa, but I know that that is just an initial thing that wears off with experience.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

20:31

I’ve always found it very interesting that people from Spain and Portugal tend to have much greater problems speaking to each other than Brazilians and their South American Spanish-speaking neighbours.

tchrist

@Jez Those are at most vocabulary and accent, not grammar.

@JanusBahsJacquet yes yes yes yes yes

Jez

yeah, but why?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

The Norwegians are the best at understanding their neighbours; the Swedes are generally slightly better than the Danes.

tchrist

Which?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Swedes and Norwegians understand each other with almost no difficulty or exposure whatsoever; it’s Danish that’s the odd one out.

Schwa assimilation has a lot to answer for!

tchrist

20:32

@JanusBahsJacquet It’s because Portuguese is more stress timed, while Brazilian and all forms of Spanish are more syllable timed. These are just hand-wavy terms, not absolute ones.

@Jez Not only are there much greater sound changes with Brazilian, and intonation patterns, the grammar has changed.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Isn’t it the other way around? Spanish is highly syllable-timed, unless I’m getting my terms backwards …

Jez

@tchrist i know but why?

do we have a reason?

tchrist

@JanusBahsJacquet Yes, I had it backwards.

@Jez The Brazilians are doing things differently with their clitics, for one thing.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

I never actually thought about that, but it makes good sense—European Portuguese is of course very stress-timed compared to the others.

Jez

why is Portugese diverging more than Spanish?

there are more Spanish speakers, so you'd think Spanish would diverge more

some kind of Spanish unity?

tchrist

20:35

They are dropping them altogether often enough, replacing them with prepositional phrases like a ele, which come in a different place in the VP.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Jez There is really no way to answer a ‘why’ question about language change like that. Nobody knows what drives major-scale language change, or what prevents it.

tchrist

But even when the Brazilians do still use clitics, they use them enclitically like the Spanish, not as proclitics like the Portuguese (and Old Spanish).

And the Portuguese mesoclitics utterly baffle the Brazilians.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@tchrist And if you ask most younger Brazilians, phrases like dar-no-lo-ão are entirely ungrammatical and impossible.

Jinx!

tchrist

jinx

double jinx

Mitch

@MattЭллен It's so ... crying tears of joy ... beautiful!

Jez

20:37

with English, you could say the internet helps to keep it glued together

that and the fact that lots of us get dragged toward US english

tchrist

The Brazilians no longer have 2nd person concordance.

Jez

with spanish, not so sure

tchrist

Well, now this is interesting.

The Spanish and Portuguese did “enjoy” a much longer period of separation than we English speakers.

You can see vestiges of that in Spanish in the rioplatense dialect and their voseo.

But for the most part, Spanish stayed closer and Portuguese did not, and we don’t have a reason for it.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Jez The Internet and media may play some small part, but probably not even that much. For instance, why have Icelandic and Finnish both remained so remarkably archaic and ‘still’, while their neighbouring languages have all raged ahead with all-encroaching changes?

tchrist

@JanusBahsJacquet Isolation.

Or “cold preserves”. :)

Jez

20:41

@tchrist a longer period of separation? huh?

tchrist

@Jez Sure.

Janus Bahs Jacquet

Isolation works fine for Icelandic … but not for Faeroese, which has developed much more. Nor for Finnish, which hasn’t been isolated at all in the same period.

tchrist

@Jez About 100 years more.

Jez

@tchrist what do you mean by separation?

Janus Bahs Jacquet

@Jez Physical, geographic separation (Spain/Portugal <> South America; UK <> North America)

tchrist

20:43

I mean that the Spanish settlements in the Americas antedated those of the English by about a century.

Yes, that.

Jez

and the Portugese?

tchrist

Same.

Jez

didnt know that about the Portugese

tchrist

What was that Papal Bull again?

Jez

but anyway it wasnt full separation, there were boats going to and fro

tchrist

20:44

No.

That counts as full.

Rio was 1502, Mexico City about 1519.

"Boats going across" doesn’t cut it.

The majority do not move.

The delta is very small.

And even once they do, they do not "spread" things.

People never used to move around much AT ALL.

Jez

anyway, Spanish stayed the same

over hundreds of years

it seems

tchrist

Well.

No.

Matt Эллен

@Mitch glad you like it ;)

Jez

so Spanish (or Castillian) today could perhaps be understood by those banishing the Moors

tchrist

This was during the type that the entire Iberian vuestra merced thing happened.

Portuguese, Castilian, and Catalan all moved towards a formal 2nd person that was grammatically 3rd person, based on that.

The thing is, this happened differently on the different sides of the Atlantic.

Only Catalan was unaffected, for the Crown of Aragon did not extend to the Atlantic.

Jez

20:48

Aragonese?

tchrist

That’s in the Catalan-group.

I mean, yes, it is its own language, but much closer to Catalan than to Castilian.

“the Crown of Aragon” refers to something other than language, really. It was about sea power and wealth in the Med.

And it came before Castile flowered.

With moneys sent from Castile’s American possessions.

But the Catalan speakers were never far separated.

Ibiza and Sitges aren’t that far apart.

In several senses. :)

That was the Crown of Aragon in 1443.

At the time, Castile was a tiny backwater place.

Jez

hum they took Naples

tchrist

Well, at least as far as the Catalans thought it.

But you can see how wealthy that sort of thing would be.

They took a great deal more than just Naples.

For certain values of took.

Jez

thats pretty much the time period that EU3 starts at

in EU3 Aragon only has the Iberian peninsula bit, and they're in personal union with Castille, who are bigger and stronger

oh no

they arent in personal union... but it's easy to get into PU

tchrist

This is . . . complex.

Jez

20:55

Naples and Provence are in PU

yep that's what makes EU3 so fun

tchrist

Also remember the King of France and Navarre and all that business.

The PU started in 1479, but there was still no nation named Spain.

Jez

navarre... that isn't an independent country in EU3 unless it's released explicitly

tchrist

Spain became Spain only under the Emperor.

Before that, it was still separate countries.

Jez

although it has the smallest top-level independent culture group in the game, as far as I can tell - basque

tchrist

What time period is this supposed to be, 1500?

Jez

20:59

i think it's 1399 to 1800

no, 1820

tchrist

Ah ok.

1820 was a terribly messy period.

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